2009.04.23 19:00 - Codependent arising and the boundary of science

The Guardian for this meeting was Sylectra Darwin. The comments are by Sylectra Darwin.

Pema Pera: Hi Pila!
Pila Mulligan: hi
Pila Mulligan: pema
Pila Mulligan: what is a familiar greeting in Japanese, please?
Pema Pera: meaning good day
Pema Pera: konnichi ha
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: konnichi ha!
Pema Pera: (out of order, my connection is a bit slow)
Pema Pera: (I'm in the bullet train, just left from Tokyo, heading for Kyoto)
Pila Mulligan: bet mine is slower :)
Pila Mulligan: cool
Pila Mulligan: so the train is going faster than the signal maybe
Pema Pera: may occasionally drop out in a tunnel
Pema Pera: not for a while
Pema Pera: between Tokyo and Yokohama they don't get up to full speed
Pila Mulligan: and full speed is ____ mph?
Pema Pera: after that, around 150 miles an hour, it get's more iffy
Pila Mulligan: that's pretty fast
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: Hi Sylectra!
Pila Mulligan: I worked for the railroad briefly in 1980-81 in Iowa -- Chicago Northwestern
Pila Mulligan: hi Sylectra
Sylectra Darwin: Hi! Sorry I am late.

I had arrived with smoky black skin with neon red tribal tattoos dotted here and there. My animation overrider, or AO, was making me pose like an anime heroine.

Pema Pera: wow, great appearance !!
Pila Mulligan: fregiht trains -- much slower
Sylectra Darwin: thank you
Pema Pera: wow!
Sylectra Darwin: this is my anime AO, hehe
Pema Pera: pirouette
Sylectra Darwin: a bit flashy, but fun too
Pila Mulligan: dark lady
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: sure
Sylectra Darwin: how are you guys?
Pema Pera: gyrating darkness
Pema Pera: fine!
Sylectra Darwin: you make it sound so good :)
Sylectra Darwin: back home?
Pema Pera: just mentioning I may drop out in twenty minutes when my bullet train will start passing through tunnels
Pema Pera: just left Tokyo on my way to Kyoto
Sylectra Darwin: there's Eliza!
Sylectra Darwin: So Pema you are in Japan?
Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Pema Pera: yes
Sylectra Darwin: very nice :)
Pema Pera: arrived two days ago
Pila Mulligan: konnichi ha Eliza
Pema Pera: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone :))

Eliza had lovely long blond hair and looked positively dewey.

Pema Pera: another striking presence!
Eliza Madrigal: Wow Sylectra.... :)
Sylectra Darwin: lovely!
Sylectra Darwin: hehe, you noticed my skin
Eliza Madrigal: Pema, Good travels I see :)
Pema Pera: yup
Pema Pera: sorry I couldn't be at your meeting at 7 am this morning
Pema Pera: unfortunately that coincides with an astronomy meeting
Sylectra Darwin: oops!
Pema Pera: and there is no other time to do that, to get people from Japan, US, and Europe all to attend
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, no worries, Pema!
Pema Pera: 7 am SLT is 11 pm in Japan . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: So now it is...?
Pema Pera: anything earlier or later doesn't work in either country
Pema Pera: it is now 11 am
Sylectra Darwin: how long does it take you to adapt to time in Japan and vice versa?
Pema Pera: just had a nice Japanese breakfast :)
Pema Pera: oh, a few days of dream time and then back to normal :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes...okay. I still look to my eastern zone before SLT...
Pema Pera: (during which I make mistakes in arithmatic, that' s about it)
Sylectra Darwin: hehe
Pema Pera: (and spelling)
Sylectra Darwin: that's what calculators are for :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Sylectra Darwin: I've been reading Dalai Lama's book, Ethics for the New Millennium
Sylectra Darwin: Has anyone read that?
Pema Pera: how is it? Haven't seen that one yet
Eliza Madrigal: Not yet, no
Sylectra Darwin: I've had it for ages and haven't opened it until now...and all of a sudden it's hitting the spot perfectly.
Sylectra Darwin: He starts out by saying that he can more easily discuss ethics if he leaves religion out of it, so that he can reach everyone.
Sylectra Darwin: I am reading a chapter called The Nature of Reality.
Sylectra Darwin: It made me think of you, Pema.
Sylectra Darwin: He talks of a clay pot, whose existence is dependent on someone having extracted the clay and someone having formed the clay, so it doesn't really have an existence of its own.
Sylectra Darwin: And at the same time the other elements would be pointless without the end product of the clay pot.
Sylectra Darwin: Does that sound familiar?
Pema Pera: yes, codependent arising
Pema Pera: no dance without a dancer, no dancer without a dance
Sylectra Darwin: yep, only I am still clumsy at paraphrasing the idea.
Pema Pera: oh no, not at all, Syl!
Sylectra Darwin: This relates to our perception of time and the self, in some way.
Pema Pera: yes!
Sylectra Darwin: I read his explanation of that and I have to say it sailed over my head.
Sylectra Darwin: I will read it again until I get it
Pila Mulligan: I had a thought here yesterday chatting with the skeptical side of Threedee about spirituality and materialism (and I've met many people unwilling to accept traditional ideas of sprituality): why assume that spiritual means non-material? Suppose there is an energy not yet grasped by science that accommodates traditional spiritual views? Science is still wrestling with gravity and the common cold, so how can we eliminate the possibility of a future discovery such as this.
Pema Pera: sure!
Sylectra Darwin: that's a good point, Pila.
Pila Mulligan: so spirit is some form of light or gravity
Pila Mulligan: maybe
Pila Mulligan: we just need to measure it
Sylectra Darwin: Whatever we discover in the next hundred years, one thing is certain - it's not what we expect we'll discover.
Pema Pera: I see no reason to assume that science has intrinsic limits, as little as I can imagine a flat Earth you can fall off of
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: what would a boundary to scientific knowledge look like???
Pila Mulligan: the big hangup seems to be what happens after death, and it seems very difficult for people not to shy away from traditional views on that question
Sylectra Darwin: Perhaps the very nature of how humans perceive time and the self is what causes it to seem like nonsense.
Pila Mulligan: but how did those traditional views arise -- mere fantasy?
Sylectra Darwin: Yes, Pila
Sylectra Darwin: (yes to your earlier statement about the difficulty of thinking about life after death)
Sylectra Darwin: We cannot rule out the power of wishful thinking on the part of Man.
Pila Mulligan: Pema, a boundary to scientific knowledge look like Being
Pila Mulligan: would *
Pema Pera: Being as a boundary???
Pila Mulligan: well, how can science go beyond Being?
Sylectra Darwin: I love the book Flatland when I am thinking about the limits of perception.
Pema Pera: can't go beyond, but no reason not to talk about Being, in due time :)
Sylectra Darwin: Would it be that science has limits or would it be that our perception of science has limits?
Sylectra Darwin: grins
Pila Mulligan: personally I think it is peer pressure
Sylectra Darwin: ?
Pema Pera: My rough guess is that subjects will be treated by science, in addition to objects, in another few hundred years
Pila Mulligan: we are pressed to accept technology as god
Pema Pera: and then subject-object unity in another thousand years or so, give or take
Pila Mulligan: maybe less?
Pema Pera: and then beyond that may take yet a few thousands years, until Being comes into the picture
Pema Pera: no rush :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Science may have no limits...because material may keep producing signs...appearances on and on.
Sylectra Darwin: Wouldn't that be something?
Pila Mulligan: the Borg, dude
Pila Mulligan: we have to get there before they get here
Pema Pera: "material" is a shifting topic :)
Sylectra Darwin: Maybe we could just tell them that they are not really here.
Pema Pera: nor there :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Sylectra Darwin: haha!
Sylectra Darwin: indeed.
Sylectra Darwin: Well in the book Flatland...
Pila Mulligan: persistence is futile
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: wu-wei
Sylectra Darwin: The women are drawn as straight lines and have the lowest caste (much to my chagrin)...
Pema Pera: well, we passed Yokohama, tunnels coming up, I'd better sign off . . . .
Pila Mulligan: what a waste
Pila Mulligan: see you later Pema
Eliza Madrigal: (and also doesn't match)
Sylectra Darwin: and they are the most dangerous to everyone else on the 2-dimensional landscape, because you can't see them coming when they are pointing at you.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema
Pema Pera: bfn
Sylectra Darwin: you take care Pema
Pila Mulligan: Flatland is a novel I have not seen
Sylectra Darwin: It's very old - Dover books.
Sylectra Darwin: There is now a sequel but I have not read it yet.
Pila Mulligan: sounds like sci-fi
Eliza Madrigal: I've heard so many people talk about it that it seems odd I've not read it either....
Sylectra Darwin: It's allegory.
Pila Mulligan: ahh
Sylectra Darwin: A simplified way of talking about social order.
Sylectra Darwin: And a lampoon of it too.
Pila Mulligan: it seems easier to communicate allaegorically too
Sylectra Darwin: I adore allegory, such as the Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet.
Sylectra Darwin: When you take one concept and blend it with a known set of characters to answer "what if"
Pila Mulligan: also allowing a story to tell something that may otherwise be rejected
Eliza Madrigal nods
Sylectra Darwin: that's so true :)
Pila Mulligan: it the author had written a commentary saying society created two dimensional gender roles it may have created resistance instead of interest
Sylectra Darwin: Yes, in fact I think some of the best writing I have read was created under the thumb of governmental oppression.
Pila Mulligan: I just noticed the Kyoto is almost the same word (in letters) as Tokyo
Sylectra Darwin: Are you familiar with Michael Zoshchenkov?
Pila Mulligan: nope
Sylectra Darwin: I think i am mangling the name.
Pila Mulligan: maybe his titles, but not the name
Sylectra Darwin: He was a satire writer during the Communist era in Russia.
Pila Mulligan: Russian writer Michael Zoshchenko (1895-1958)
Pila Mulligan: from Google
Sylectra Darwin: http://www.iblist.com/book55727.htm
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Zoshchenko
Pila Mulligan: :)
Sylectra Darwin: trading links!
Pila Mulligan: just reading about him reminds me of Vonnegut
Pila Mulligan: Kurt Vonnegut
Pila Mulligan: humor and satire
Sylectra Darwin: Vonnegut, hehe.
Sylectra Darwin: I read Breakfast of Champions.
Eliza Madrigal: I've been online so much today and would like to take part in this conversation but my eyes are crossing. haha. Thanks for the spot of company before bed. Nite :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza, sleep well
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slaughterhouse-Five?
Pila Mulligan: this is one of his heaviest works
Sylectra Darwin: I tried to read that one and it was not my thing.
Pila Mulligan: yep, some of his stuff is peculiar
Sylectra Darwin: ah well, it's the nature of humor and satire.
Pila Mulligan: he was actually there after the WWII fire-bombing of Dresden
Pila Mulligan: and that was the part of the story that was so heavy, no doubt because for him it was so real
Sylectra Darwin: Do you know who Christopher Moore is?
Sylectra Darwin: I can't say he's philosophical or even pithy..but entertaining!
Sylectra Darwin: The Stupidest Angel is perhaps his best-known work.
Pila Mulligan: the name is familiar this time but the book is not
Sylectra Darwin: I think he also wrote The Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove.
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Moore_(author)
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: looking at the list of his books
Pila Mulligan: Coyote Blue looks interesting
Sylectra Darwin: I heard that one was good. Never read it.
Sylectra Darwin: But I have read many others....one about a demon.
Sylectra Darwin: Another weird one that kinda makes you think is TC Boyle.
Sylectra Darwin: He starts his heros out straight and at some point they switch places with the villains.
Sylectra Darwin: You almost never see it coming.
Sylectra Darwin: It really messes with your head.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Sylectra Darwin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budding_Prospects
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TC_Boyle :)
Pila Mulligan: satire always makes me think of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_modest_proposal
Pila Mulligan: one of the earliest still-popular examples
Pila Mulligan: a modern expert in the area is Salman Rushdie
Pila Mulligan: have you read any of his books?
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_rushdie
Sylectra Darwin: was looking at the summary of A Modest Proposal
Pila Mulligan: :)
Sylectra Darwin: nope, not Salmon Rushdie, not yet.
Pila Mulligan: he tells wonderful stories and has the most subtle (sometimes not so, though) lines of satire in them
Sylectra Darwin: weird lookin guy
Sylectra Darwin: Jack Nicholson could play him
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enchantress_of_Florence -- might be a good intro to his work
Sylectra Darwin: looks entertaining...
Pila Mulligan: his storytelling skills are remarkable
Pila Mulligan: but his sense of humor is wicked -- as shown by the Satanic Verses
Sylectra Darwin: "mixing history, fantasy and fable."
Pila Mulligan: do you rememebr when Ayatollah Kohemni ordered that he be killed for the Satanic Verses?
Sylectra Darwin: Thanks, I'll have to check it out.
Sylectra Darwin: yes
Pila Mulligan: that was kind of a reverse Noble Peace Prize
Sylectra Darwin: Well, I am attempting to recover from a bad col, so I'll retire to bed now.
Pila Mulligan: nice visiting with you Sylectra -- hope you feel well soon
Pila Mulligan: rememebr: gan mao ling
Sylectra Darwin: thanks much! you have a great weekend.
Pila Mulligan: aloha
Sylectra Darwin: aloha :)