2009.04.28 19:00 - Words for Felt Experience

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.



    Pema Pera: Hi Eos and Peer!
    Pema Pera: Eos, I hope that it's okay with you that we scheduled a theme meeting for your guardian slot tonight?
    Pema Pera: With Geo and Threedee
    Eos Amaterasu: That's fine!
    Pema Pera: Hi Strannik!
    Strannik Zipper: greetings
    Eos Amaterasu: Someone stated the theme as How can the experiential be formally communicated to another using the experience of peace and happiness as examples
    Pema Pera: yes, the someone was Geo, who proposed that title
    Pema Pera: Hi Threedee!
    Peer Infinity: hi Three :D
    Threedee Shepherd: hi folks
    Pema Pera: (Peer, I sent an email to the group, about your mediawiki experiment; we'll start a discussion in a day or so on the pabwiki google email group)
    Peer Infinity: (ok)
    Pema Pera: Hi Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: greetings everyone
    Threedee Shepherd: Geo sent an e-mail saying he could not make it
    Pema Pera: that's too bad
    Pema Pera: I didn't see the email yet; haven't gone through my email this morning
    Pema Pera: I guess we'll have to reschedule
    Eos Amaterasu: "I will be unable to make the Tuesday (today) 1900 SLT PaB session. I hope this message gets to all interested parties in time. It would certainly be ok with me if the theme was discussed anyway. - Geo"


     Topic: how, to what extent, can words such as those we type here communicate felt experience to others?

    Threedee Shepherd: Or we could start on the more general topic of how, to what extent, can words such as those we type here communicate felt experience to others?
    Pema Pera: yes, that's a good topic, Three!
    Pila Mulligan: Threedee, I assume felt experience includes subjective perceptions?
    Pema Pera: (and by the way, for those new here: if you click a blue cushion, you cycle between two positions -- in case you wonder why Pila and I sit differently from Strannik and Peer)
    Threedee Shepherd: We all agree that "the word is not the thing" and that the "map is not the territory"
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila I doubt there is anything ELSE but subjective perceptions
    Strannik Zipper: can you seperate felt experience from subjective impressions?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: just wanted to be sure
    Strannik Zipper: but when two people are clearly able to communicate and talk about their subjective impressions, then Habermas calls that "intersubjectivity"
    Threedee Shepherd: Math is even subjective, but is then discussed in an agreed upon, unambiguous language. Words are not like that
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, it "appears" that two people are able to clearly communicate, but that may be a shared illusion or adequate approximation.
    Threedee Shepherd: The one new neurological fact that enters the conversation is the existence of "mirror neurons"
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, maybe the child learns personal subjectivity from mirror-neuroning its mother
    Strannik Zipper: regardless of how the neurons do it, the mind can be experienced as a big mirror of experience
    Pila Mulligan: in litigation, evidence comes from several sources, inlcuding what is called a percipient witness -- percipient meaning they perceived something ... but listening to several eye witnesses describe the same accident can sometimes be like reading Kafka, unrelated to the degree of being bizarre
    Threedee Shepherd: WiKip:
    A mirror neuron is a neuron which fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another animal (especially by another animal of the same species).[1] Thus, the neuron 'mirrors' the behavior of another animal, as though the observer were itself acting.
    Threedee Shepherd: Wikip:
    Many researchers in cognitive neuroscience and cognitive psychology consider that this system provides the physiological mechanism for the perception action coupling (see the common coding theory). These mirror neurons may be important for understanding the actions of other people, and for learning new skills by imitation. Some researchers also speculate that mirror systems may simulate observed actions, and thus contribute to theory of mind skills,[4][5] while others relate mirror neurons to language abilities
    Strannik Zipper: interestingly specific


    Pila Mulligan: so courts use some standards to weigh evidence and reach an opinion as to what is real -- and what is decided is thereafter legally true (regardless of what may have actually happened)
    Threedee Shepherd: I am convinced that all perception (and eyewitness report) is an approximation that gets us usefully through the day as long as it is not examined too closely.
    Pila Mulligan: inconvenient inconsistencies are formally eliminated
    Strannik Zipper: I think that one can communicate felt experience in words, because we tend to have common experiences - to communicate something which has NOT been experienced by the other, I have a hard time seeing, unless that communication is "pointing out instructions" to get the other to the experience
    Eos Amaterasu: perhaps similarly to how "self" is construed to be consistent
    Threedee Shepherd: I think that a key core issue of this conversation is dealing with words that related to non-physical abstractions, such as peace, love, happiness
    Pila Mulligan: the self seems so desirous of consistency as to be resistant to learning some uncommon expereinces
    Threedee Shepherd: I cannot tell you what vanilla or alligator taste like, so why can I tell you what peace is?
    Pila Mulligan: but I can taste vanilla and alligator (yuck) :)
    Pema Pera: I think Strannik put his finger on it
    Pema Pera: we can only point out
    Threedee Shepherd: Are you saying Peme, that I can say look at how those two communities are co-existing, that is peace?
    Eos Amaterasu: Pointing out followed by confirmation => language?
    Pema Pera: no, Threedee, that would be rational arguments
    Pila Mulligan: I bet we have all had the expereince of being warm (in varying degrees)
    Pema Pera: I would start with direct experience
    Pema Pera: and then, yes Eos, confirmation
    Threedee Shepherd: so what is "it" that we can only point out?
    Pema Pera: to check that we're talking about the same thing
    Pema Pera: we recognize that we share the experience when we talk about it, Threedee -- like in math


    Pema Pera: in math too, the only way I can check whether someone has "gotten" a proof, is to let them tell me or show me
    Pema Pera: and I'll recognize whether they really "got" it
    Strannik Zipper: pointing out instructions might be like tutoring in math - showing the thing until the "ah ha" of getting it sinks in
    Pema Pera: yes
    Threedee Shepherd: but in math you agree totally on the meaning of the symbols. In language you do not
    Pema Pera: not so simple, Threedee
    Pema Pera: the axioms are the meaning of the symbols
    Pema Pera: the theorems and proofs are the creative part
    Threedee Shepherd: Wait, I tell you that I have observed the new behaviorial phenomenon of ZURP, and you say Huh?
    Pema Pera: to follow a proof may be very hard, even if you completely understand the meaning of the symbols
    Pema Pera: I don't see the connection, Threedee
    Pila Mulligan: (zurp is a vanilla alligator)
    Strannik Zipper: Threedee, how can I come closer to experiencing ZURP?
    Threedee Shepherd: I give you stories, examples and pictures, and suddenly you go Ah, I get it! HOW do I know you mean the same as I do when you then use the word ZURP?
    Pema Pera: if you have really experienced / seen / felt it, and someone else has too, chances are high you recognize it in each other
    Pema Pera: nothing is foolproof -- even mathematicians make mistakes
    Strannik Zipper: at some level of precision, you don't exaclty, and some level, you can confirm by intersubjective confirmation
    Strannik Zipper: if you say you get math, I'll give you a test :)
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: a test, or more friendly: compare notes
    Pema Pera: work together
    Pema Pera: try to prove a new theorem together
    Pema Pera: see how far you get together
    Pema Pera: as we do here :-)
    Pema Pera: we're not testing each other, there is no teacher
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, but in the end it is all words
    Pema Pera: no
    Pema Pera: words are words
    Pema Pera: and words point to something beyond words
    Pila Mulligan: I appreciate the underlying thought that words without a shared or common expereince are not always helpful
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, sounds like you are putting appropriate weight on common experience. So is everything we can agree about either a physical (matter or energy) reality and/or an observed behaviorial "doing" or its physical outcome?
    Pila Mulligan: agreement can be arbitrary and capricioous
    Pema Pera: asking that question is like putting the cart before the horse


    Pema Pera: instead of "everything" let us take one thing, and find out!
    Pema Pera: What kind of answer could possibly be given to your question, and on what grounds, other than speculation?
    Pema Pera: but instead of an answer, I *can* propose a hypothesis
    Pema Pera: a working hypothesis, and that can be useful, to actually work with
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, that is sensible, but if we are using an inadequate method to "find out" that is useless. So method seems important to discuss
    Pema Pera: to guide experimentation
    Pema Pera: so we start with hypothesis, like "it may make sense to talk about Being, as beyond all dichotomies"
    Pema Pera: and then: let's find out whether that can make a difference in our lives
    Pema Pera: let's explore
    Pema Pera: let's stop every 15 minutes for 9 sec
    Pema Pera: let's try to appreciate the presence of appearance
    Pema Pera: and compare notes
    Pila Mulligan: I think I initially misunderstood the question Threedee, my second answer would be no, not all common expereince is physical reality or observed doing
    Pema Pera: while suspending judgment about how it may or may not fit into our received categories of thinking
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, but I started this chat by asking what is the meaning or usefulness of talk about
    Pema Pera: to help the exploration move along
    Pema Pera: refining it
    Pema Pera: seeing more, more clearly


    Strannik Zipper: can we find any sense of being that ISN'T beyond dichotomies?
    Threedee Shepherd: I "agree" on what we are trying to do.
    Pema Pera: well, if a chair is red, being red is part of a dichotomy red and not-red . . . but that may not be what you mean, Strannik?
    Threedee Shepherd: I note we use words to discuss it.
    Pema Pera: I use "Being" as different from everday being as in being red.
    Strannik Zipper: that might work, although the poor platonic chair might need a rest
    Threedee Shepherd: I note words are often ambiguous (even rock and pebble are not unambiguous)
    Pema Pera: yes, Threedee, but we also sit here in an environment, and we sense each other's presence in some way
    Eos Amaterasu: the "beyond dichotomies" is the cutter differentiating Being from being-this-or-that (dichotomous)
    Pema Pera: we are doing something different from pure chat
    Threedee Shepherd: So, I ask, how can or do we use words to come to agreement that is really agreement, and not just two people using the same word for different subjective experiences?
    Pema Pera: Being shows itself in the midst of dichotomies, which are all, too, Being :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pema Pera: <- Eos
    Pema Pera: by trial and error, Threedee, how else?
    Eos Amaterasu: Our subjective experiences can be diff - women see more colour than men
    Threedee Shepherd: how do you know that Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: thus have I heard :-) (more rods and cones)
    Threedee Shepherd: more may mean greater sensitivity, not different color
    Strannik Zipper: or you can just try to go furniture shopping with one
    Eos Amaterasu: Ie, women can distinguish finer color distinctions....
    Eos Amaterasu: So agreeing on cerulean blue can be approx, good enough
    Threedee Shepherd: Eos, I don't think so, but it is the field I worked in (vision) so I can look it up later.
    Eos Amaterasu: Ok, if I'm wrong I'd love to know


    Pema Pera: Three, you are asking about checking, confirmation, right?
    Strannik Zipper: how about the fountain right in front of us - what can we say about it that does not involve dichotomies
    Pema Pera: nothing
    Pema Pera: Perhaps I can give an example of confirmation, that may address your concerns, Threedee.
    Threedee Shepherd: More than that, I am asking about the basis of communication
    Threedee Shepherd: Here, let me put together the sentences I wrote earlier: I "agree" on what we are trying to do [using the 9 sec exercise]. I note we use words to discuss it. I note words are often ambiguous (even rock and pebble are not aunambiguous) So, I ask, how can or do we use words to come to agreement that is really agreement, and not just two people using the same word for different subjective experiences?
    Strannik Zipper: in an absolute sense, you can't
    Pila Mulligan: if someone has never seen Iowa, I can describe it to then -- my words are useful to the extent that they help them recognize Iowa should they see it or hear of it again or if they have a need to describe Iowa by hearsay
    Strannik Zipper: in a relative sense, you can both be in the same "ballpark"
    Pila Mulligan: my words cannot transport them, of course
    Eos Amaterasu: I wonder, though, if subjective experience is really exclusively subjective
    Pema Pera: Imagine that somebody claims to have lived in Holland. He has learned perfect Dutch, but I am not sure whether he has actually lived there. It wouldn't take long for me to find out, in talking with him, whether he was bluffing, or whether he had actually lived there. No amount of learning Dutch from tapes or from books would make it possible for him to really fool a native. He might be able to answer a few questions here and there, but if I would let him talk for a few minutes, I'd quickly spot oddities.
    Pema Pera: similar example as Pila's Iowa
    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, have you just restated the turing Test?
    Pema Pera: that's certainly related
    Strannik Zipper: I may not have been to Iowa, but I have seen a cornfield - you could tell me that Iowa is a place with a lot of them, and I can extrapolate a small bit of experience to imagine the latter
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, but have you seen LOVE?
    Pila Mulligan: Threedee, it was the touring test :)
    Pema Pera: Strannik, that's about getting the experience --- Threedee, I think, is talking about verification
    Strannik Zipper: hahaha - very punny
    Threedee Shepherd: <.>
    Threedee Shepherd: in the sense that verification implies that we "mean the same thing" yes
    Strannik Zipper: then I think that Pema's idea of the shared hypothesis makes sense - you test that your experience is really matching up
    Threedee Shepherd: by telling each other that it is???
    Pema Pera: so we formulate explorations, do them, talk about them, and try to check to what extent we talk about the same thing
    Strannik Zipper: by sharing impressions
    Pema Pera: that talking in turn helps to refine the explorations
    Pema Pera: which in turn helps us to report more clearly
    Pema Pera: it's a circle
    Pema Pera: Hi Geralyn!
    Pila Mulligan: Eos wondered if experience is exclusively subjective -- I'd say some felt experience can be more than subjective, depending on the degree of lucidity
    Pema Pera: You're welcome to join us
    Geralyn Landar: hello..and thank you

    Threedee Shepherd: So if I say to you that in my last 9 sec experience, I found that being tastes like strawberries and has a runny gel-like texture, is that at all useful
    Strannik Zipper: once in a while you can have a sublime intersubjective experience, like when you and someone you know, look at a thing, and you both laugh, and you both know why you are both laughing without any words at all - or you really know what the other is thinking
    Eos Amaterasu: the laughter is the confirmation
    Pema Pera: yes, Threedee, it tells me a lot about your understanding of Being :-)
    Strannik Zipper: right, which is underscorred with a deep sense of knowing - no words may be exchanged, but if they were, you already know what they would be
    Threedee Shepherd: Stannik, I'm laughing at the funny noses, you at how then interfere with kissing. We SEEM to agree, but don't
    Pila Mulligan: please define strawberry, Threedee :)
    Threedee Shepherd: strawberry is the taste of strawberry jello
    Pila Mulligan: thank you
    Pila Mulligan: god is the taste of love
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, I cannot, of course, that is the problem with primary qualities (qualia)
    Pila Mulligan: sounded good to me
    Eos Amaterasu: but even the misunderstanding about what we're laughing about may disclose Being
    Threedee Shepherd: no Pila, love is the taste og God
    Threedee Shepherd: *of
    Pila Mulligan: ah, so easy to get them backwards :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Or perhaps love is the taste of Dog
    Strannik Zipper: It may be right both ways :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Or perhaps vole is the taste of dog.....
    Strannik Zipper: haha that is also true :)
    Pila Mulligan: never et dawg


    Eos Amaterasu: Pema's hypothesis is that we can experience Being thru the path of non-dichotomy
    Eos Amaterasu: We use non-dichotomy as a test, tuning fork, though there may be many questions about dichotomy
    Pema Pera: Eos, concerning "Pema's hypothesis is that we can experience Being thru the path of non-dichotomy"
    Pema Pera: I would phrase that a bit differently
    Pema Pera: Being itself cannot be captured in a language that is based on dichotomies
    Pema Pera: and we as what we think we are cannot experience it
    Pema Pera: so there is no path
    Pema Pera: and no us, no self
    Eos Amaterasu: But there is the tax :-)
    Pema Pera: yet we can live our live with Being as a resource
    Pema Pera: yes, there is tax, but no death :-)
    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, I would say that Being always is, and that the hypothesis is that there be ways to notice it by stripping away or seeing beyond/through the confusions we constract about it.
    Pema Pera: and the tax is voluntary :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Three
    Pema Pera: and "notice it" is not like noticing an object
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, it is experiencing
    Pema Pera: more like expressing, celebrating
    Pema Pera: within everything, including experience
    Pila Mulligan: people have signifcant experiences and assemble them into a view of life, an effort that intermixes with the mind's pleasure in describing things -- but sometimes the view gets tangled up in the words
    Eos Amaterasu: transcends subjective, can we say?
    Pema Pera: yes, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: I would agree Eos
    Pema Pera: transcends all dichotomies, including subjective
    Threedee Shepherd: And when (or if) I have done so, there are no "words" that can let me tell you about it so that just the words evoke the experience for you.
    Pema Pera: oh, there are, Three
    Pila Mulligan: may be Threedee, it depends
    Pema Pera: if we both have had the experience
    Pema Pera: but "experience" is not quite the right word
    Pila Mulligan: ever been to Iowa?
    Pema Pera: not "experience" as what is experienced by an experiencer --- we have to go beyond those dichotomies too.
    Pema Pera: nobody can "experience" Being in that sense
    Eos Amaterasu: nobody is paying that tax :-)
    Pema Pera: but Being can present itself (so to speak)
    Pema Pera: without there being a presenter or presented
    Pema Pera: hence: appreciate the presence of appearance


    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, I need to check. Is there "only one Being" such that everyone who 'experiences' it is "tasting" the same source.
    Pema Pera: that's enough
    Pema Pera: Being is beyond the dichotomoy of one-many
    Pema Pera: there are no people who can experience it
    Pila Mulligan: (that sounds like a yes)
    Pema Pera: only Being deals with Being as Being in Being
    Pema Pera: I'm not trying to be complicated, I'm trying to describe as accurately as I can what I've found in my own explorations -- and I'm earger to compare notes with what you all have found
    Pema Pera: to the extend that we find differences, I'd be happy to talk about those
    Pema Pera: and learn
    Pila Mulligan: its tricky when Lao Tse says the way that can be described is not the eternal way
    Pema Pera: Hi Hadiran!
    Strannik Zipper: to know being, it is necessary to go beyond all description in the form "its like this or its like that"
    Hadrian Rives: good evening :)
    Pema Pera: Welcome back!

    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, is the functioning of your brain a necessary (I do not say sufficient) condition of your"own explorations"?
    Hadrian Rives: thank u
    Pema Pera: asking that question already limits you to a view in which the notion of Being does not make sense, Three
    Pema Pera: For Being, there are no separate beings
    Pema Pera: no you and me as separated selfs
    Strannik Zipper: another dichotomy - brain/mind or no-mind
    Pila Mulligan: ... but (answering Threedee's earlie question) my guess is that everyone experiencing Lao Tse's eternal way it is tasting the same source
    Threedee Shepherd: If Threedee (Mark) ceases to exist, can Mark still experience Being?
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pema Pera: in a movie, switching on a light switch seems to make a room light up -- but the real light is coming from the projector
    Strannik Zipper: but not necessarily as Mark
    Pema Pera: my brain seems to do my thinking, but that is buying into a limited picture, buying into the story we have woving about our conventional picture of reality
    Pema Pera: but Being is also not a projector that is elsewhere, that's where my metaphor would go wrong
    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, I chose my words very carefully. ALL I asked was is the functioning of your brain a necessary condition (not the only one) for your eexplorations?
    Pema Pera: Alas, it is lunch time here for me . . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: both mind and brain are secondary to first person "experience"
    Strannik Zipper: I think it is fair to say that one's words and thoughts about being are one thing, but experiencing being without or beyond thoughts is something else entirely
    Pema Pera: and Threedee, I can answer that in many ways . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . if you ask me whether a comic book figure can experience something
    Pema Pera: what do you mean?
    Pema Pera: do you want an answer within the story?
    Pema Pera: Sure, withing the story the figure experiences all kinds of things, as part of the story -- but outside the story, no.
    Threedee Shepherd: "in a manner of speaking"
    Pila Mulligan: have a nice lunch, Pema-san :)
    Pema Pera: so as long as I view myself as a person with a body and a mind, as we usually do, the self or ego I am talking about has only the status of a character in a story
    Pema Pera: what I really am, what really can be fully involved in the world, is Being
    Pema Pera: and we can "play as Being"
    Pila Mulligan: maybe they will have vanilla alligator
    Pema Pera: even while not quite having seen what that means
    Hadrian Rives: this is well worn positional thesis in the duality arguments imho
    Strannik Zipper: lol
    Pema Pera: we'll see, Pila :0
    Threedee Shepherd: say more please, Hadrian
    Hadrian Rives: 2 millenia and no resolutions in sight :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Caio! Chow!
    Threedee Shepherd: good lunch, Pema
    Pema Pera: not if you keep circling around in words, Hadrian :)
    Strannik Zipper: "in sight" being the operational words?
    Pema Pera: I'l leave the words behind now, and eat :-)
    Pila Mulligan: bye bye
    Hadrian Rives: me? :) i am circling around only in my head since i tried to make sense of it
    Pema Pera: thanks, everybody!
    Hadrian Rives: so long
    Strannik Zipper: zaru soba!

    Threedee Shepherd: So, I will tell you a personal "secret" it is the fact that I am convinced that not only is there no resolution in sight, but that no resolution is possible, that I "believe" in Being.
    Pila Mulligan: aghast
    Strannik Zipper: no resolution for your mind, you mean?
    Hadrian Rives: u are right Three :)....when i see such conviction as evidenced in Mr. Pera's notions
    Hadrian Rives: it harks back to the great debates between the monists and dualists in eastern philosophies
    Threedee Shepherd: .
    Hadrian Rives: the Being is separate and knowable and sentient from the Super being who is all knowing and all sentient
    Hadrian Rives: oh noi no,....wait..they are but one and the same if only you looked at things THIS way
    Threedee Shepherd: .
    Hadrian Rives: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, why aghast?
    Eos Amaterasu: But re no resolution in sight, I think there is resolution, has been, among numerous people following this...
    Pila Mulligan: playing Threedee -- you keep confimring my opnion that you are really a metaphysicist
    Threedee Shepherd: Eos, what is that
    Hadrian Rives: resolution among ppl who choose one side or the other for comfort
    Threedee Shepherd: If it is not an oxymoron a "Pragmatic Metaphysicist"
    Strannik Zipper: what if one doesn't choose for comfort?
    Hadrian Rives: convenience then? ;)
    Pila Mulligan: a dichotomy perhpas?
    Eos Amaterasu: Person to person connection & recognition, and not just within a single practice strand, but even between them
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, you can choose wave or particle if that make YOU happy, but it does not make it so.
    Strannik Zipper: what if you don't choose wave or particle, but simply let the dichotomy exist as it is?
    Eos Amaterasu: wave/particleness seems paradigmatically Being, non-dichotomous - maybe that's an analogy
    Threedee Shepherd: I agree Strannik, it just is, and even wave vs. particle is an oversimplification that raises a false dichotomy
    Hadrian Rives: what kind of a world would that be...all these dichotomies contradictions ..hard to live that way
    Strannik Zipper: if I choose, particle, perhaps I am identifying with particle, and then, yes, projecting my own needs for particles
    Pila Mulligan: I like polytheism -- a god for every opinion
    Strannik Zipper: I think we do it all the time
    Threedee Shepherd: backwards, again Pile, it's an opinion for every god
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, where are my glasses
    Strannik Zipper: we have some experience that strips away previous opinions and identifications, and we are free falling without reference points
    Strannik Zipper: when our models and thoughts have cracks in them, then the light can shine thru
    Pila Mulligan: falling until the reference points are reintegrated maybe
    Threedee Shepherd: yes and locally we define a floor to fall to or we would go crazy. The important thing is not to confuse that local illusion for reality.
    Strannik Zipper: we don't go very long without reference points, but if we pay attention when they are obliterated, it can be quite valuable
    Hadrian Rives: local reality global reality personal reality impersonal reality
    Strannik Zipper: sometimes "unknowing" is a nice partner to "knowing"
    Threedee Shepherd: what about non-knowing
    Strannik Zipper: we always have some of that
    Hadrian Rives: i find it illuminating and ultimately meaningful only to view things in the context of an individual's own personal reality
    Hadrian Rives: rather in globalisms
    Threedee Shepherd: Hadrian, of course, that is all anyone CAN do
    Strannik Zipper: what would happen if you did both simultaneously or neither?
    Pila Mulligan: I can agree with that, Hadrian
    Hadrian Rives: so..i am very interested in Pila...and three...and stran..and peer and eos
    Eos Amaterasu: in a way that is the topic
    Peer Infinity: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well speaking for Threedee, life is like strawberry jello
    Hadrian Rives: lol
    Eos Amaterasu: which is what Being tastes like
    Pila Mulligan: Threedee you may answer for the person of your choice
    Strannik Zipper: as someone who just finished eating a bowl of strawberries that were picked today, I would have to say that the jello is a heavily mediated experience :)
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, REal Strawberris
    Hadrian Rives: NOW u guys are talking
    Hadrian Rives: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, I think I get it....
    Threedee Shepherd: the use of symbols (language) is like consciousness, I don't know what either is, but I do know they work!
    Pila Mulligan: Hadrian, would you like to describe your personal view of reality?
    Strannik Zipper: language, symbols, grunts, fingers pointing, gestures
    Peer Infinity: goodnight
    Pila Mulligan: bye Peer
    Threedee Shepherd: night, Peer
    Strannik Zipper: night


    Hadrian Rives: Pila...at a very basic level i have come to believe we are all at very different and individual points in our journeyas to different destinations
    Hadrian Rives: almost like a busy railway station...souls passing by...many just swirling around
    Hadrian Rives: not knowing which train to get on
    Pila Mulligan: 'like tall ships passing in the night'
    Hadrian Rives: all the debate about good and bad and universal rights and wrongs...almost hold no meaning to me now...
    Hadrian Rives: all i do is search for souls who might be further along in a similar journey towards ends i personally want to reach
    Strannik Zipper: sounds like a good strategy
    Hadrian Rives: we'll see :)
    Hadrian Rives: sorry..rather simplistic i guess
    Strannik Zipper: and what do those souls do to you?
    Strannik Zipper: what do they communicate?
    Hadrian Rives: they sort of give me the same info a traveller who has been to the place u want to visit does..
    Hadrian Rives: what do they think and feel when they are there...what did it take to get there...what have they become..
    Strannik Zipper: that sounds like the crux of the topic - how it gets done!
    Strannik Zipper: for me the experience of having experience communicated is all about presence
    Strannik Zipper: it may or may not involve words
    Hadrian Rives: please help me understand presence
    Hadrian Rives: ah yes
    Eos Amaterasu: presence of myself to myself qua presence of you to me?
    Strannik Zipper: when you come into the presence of a soul who can impart something to you, and you are fully present to them, something happens
    Eos Amaterasu: presence of Being might be more accureate than "experience" of Being
    Pila Mulligan: "Ships that pass in the night, and speak each other in passing, only a signal shown, and a distant voice in the darkness; So on the ocean of life, we pass and speak one another, only a look and a voice, then darkness again and a silence."
    Strannik Zipper: yes, perhaps
    Pila Mulligan: Longfellow
    Threedee Shepherd: Strannik, I agree
    Eos Amaterasu: hi gina
    Pila Mulligan: hi gina
    Strannik Zipper: There was a desert monk, who had visitors come into his cell. He didn't speak a word. His attendent asked 'Father why did you not speak to the guests" he said "If they are not edified by my silence, neither will they be edified by my words"
    Hadrian Rives: hi gina
    Strannik Zipper: hi gina
    gina Broono: hi Hadrina and all
    gina Broono: I'm happy you found a nice home to come to here
    Hadrian Rives: i have known that....in person...from a soul who was my teacher...i sat in her presence..thats it
    Hadrian Rives: thank u gina
    Pila Mulligan: a community aruond an animated fountain :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hadrian, would you say that was/is Being?
    Hadrian Rives: hmmm
    Hadrian Rives: a Being
    Eos Amaterasu: her BEing?
    Hadrian Rives: eos..i have no resolution within me about THE Being vs a being etc....after decades of study...i dont care anymore frankly
    Eos Amaterasu: your Being?
    Strannik Zipper: there are some encounters of this type, where it becomes difficult to tell where one person ends and the other begins
    Hadrian Rives: yes....her being
    Strannik Zipper: the totality of being can never become a concept
    Threedee Shepherd: "In seeking the mystery, we are like moths incessantly circling around a flame that is not there."
    Strannik Zipper: or a percept either, for that matter
    Strannik Zipper: but we see the light, and can feel the heat
    Pila Mulligan: but oh so many doctrines :)
    Strannik Zipper: why?
    Threedee Shepherd: .
    Hadrian Rives: i saw the light...that is beyond any doubt...
    Strannik Zipper: might not a doctrine just be a finger that is pointing to reality?
    Threedee Shepherd: "In seeking to understand the mystery, we are like moths incessantly circling a flame that is not there."
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Eos Amaterasu: forms of play forget the play
    Pila Mulligan: or a lesser doctrine may be pointing to a donation tray :)
    Eos Amaterasu: nevertheless the play's the thing
    Strannik Zipper: yeah, that would be where discriminating wisdom is needed :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: where with we catch the Being of the thing :-)


    Hadrian Rives: Pila..would u mind sharing your views on where you are on on your journey and where are u headed
    Pila Mulligan: I am old, looking forward to the final day (without morbidity) and thinking pretty everything is pretty much as it seems to be
    Pila Mulligan: strike the first pretty :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually Pila, that is an exceptionally good heuristic
    Pila Mulligan: oh crap, i'm a heurist
    Strannik Zipper: hahaha
    Hadrian Rives: lol
    Strannik Zipper: I must depart - thank you all
    Threedee Shepherd: g'nite
    Strannik Zipper: night
    Pila Mulligan: bye Stranick
    Pila Mulligan: I'm trying to find the name of one of Heinlein's novels where the story line was based on the premise that everything anyone ever thought is true
    Eos Amaterasu: Can't recall that one
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, friends, thanks for the chat. Lacking a witty quip, I will just responsd to the quit-y whip and leave :D
    Eos Amaterasu: I have to turn in, tune out
    Pila Mulligan: bye threedee
    Eos Amaterasu: Thank you, good night!
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
    Pila Mulligan: it was "The Number of the Beast" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Num..._Beast_(novel)
    Pila Mulligan: it was a fun nvel, and an interesting idea
    Pila Mulligan: hmm -- everyone is gone :)
    Pila Mulligan: ... so, good night dear readers :)
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