2010.05.09 13:00 - Words as greater treasures

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden. This session had several themes: beginning with illusion, the multiple levels of meaning in words and language, the treasures lost and gained in translations from language to language, Being as more than we can express/experience in any of a number of languages.  Following the first hour, several stayed and explored some wonderings about playing and being, about doubt and uncertainty, and a number of other issues.

Maxine Walden: Sorry I could not make the guardian meeting this morning. I will read the log.
Eliza Madrigal: You were missed Maxine, but of course life happens :)
Mickorod Renard: I went to a model airplane show today, amazing with lots of jets too
Eliza Madrigal: We started off talking about 'drop day' and then moved into 'time' :)
Eos Amaterasu: We discussed doing a "drop day" on Saturday(s), and a "drop hour" in the hour just before Guardian meetings
Mickorod Renard: I need to drop lots
Maxine Walden: ah, sounds interesting, all topics, drop hour, drop day and time
Eliza Madrigal: :)) From airplanes Mick?
Eos Amaterasu needs to ride jets
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone - Maxine, long time no see :)
Eos Amaterasu: Can you say more about what you found in the jets, Mick?
Maxine Walden: yes, Cal, good to see you
Mickorod Renard: well, they were so life like
Eos Amaterasu: The Cylon peers into the jet, and asks "are you alive? prove it!@"
Mickorod Renard: and in the air they could have been mistaken for the real thing
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: yea,,I remember that well eos
Mickorod Renard: but it reminded me of illusion
Mickorod Renard: and made me wonder how much we may be living in a life of illusion
Eos Amaterasu wonders what a lusion is
Maxine Walden: say more, Mick
Mickorod Renard: ouch, i knew i should have stayed quiet
Eos Amaterasu: oh, please go ahead, Mick
Maxine Walden: sorry, not to cause pressure, Mick
Eos Amaterasu: we get to talk so rarely!
Maxine Walden: hi, Ara
Mickorod Renard: well, lots of things recently have made me ponder on this subject
arabella Ella: Hiya
Eos Amaterasu: Arah!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
Mickorod Renard: like the indian guy who claims to have not eaten for 70 years
Eliza Madrigal: ?!
Mickorod Renard: or something like that
Mickorod Renard: maybe 60 years
Maxine Walden: 70 years or 7 years...something extraordinary as I recall
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I think I could make 60, dunno about 70 :)
Mickorod Renard: they are monitoring him now,a24 hours a day
Mickorod Renard: just to make sure he isnt cheating
Maxine Walden: yes, heard that, trying to learn as well as to verify his story
Mickorod Renard: I guess
Eliza Madrigal watched a little article on bonzai trees a few weeks ago... and the way they have potential to bring you in ... can feel you are sheltered beneath this towering tree, when 'actually' just a tiny bush...
Mickorod Renard: yes, but I think there is a degree of belief, they are also monitoring to find out how he sustains himself
Eos Amaterasu: Mick, could you suggest a way we could explore that in the upcoming 90 secs?
Mickorod Renard: not really
Mickorod Renard: he he
Eos Amaterasu: maybe watch for that
Maxine Walden: good question, Eos
Maxine Walden: maybe how we sustain ourselves, various ways to sustain ourselves...during the 90 sec?
Darren Islar: hi QT
--BELL--
Qt Core: hi all
Eos Amaterasu sees QT manifesting as a box, perfect for this exercise
arabella Ella: Ciao Qt!
Eliza Madrigal: what you say about the planes is similar to the bonsai Mick ... perspective/proportion are malleable. SL plays with that, and hm... hadn't thought about 'belief' being kind of the same
Darren Islar: how to sustain yourself in a box?
Qt Core: what's happening Eos
Mickorod Renard: yes eliza,,I see the link now
Eliza Madrigal giggles @ darren
Eos Amaterasu: (I see you as a plywood box, QT)
arabella Ella: i cant see Qt ... where are you?
Qt Core: yes, which exercise I was asking
Darren Islar: :-)
Qt Core: to left of Maxime
arabella Ella: all i can see is your name, no cloud, nothing :(
Qt Core: i'm the box
Mickorod Renard: its an illusion, qt is really using an invisability cloak
Eos Amaterasu: Mick said, "made me wonder how much we may be living in a life of illusion?"
arabella Ella: no box is visible for me ... maybe i need to improve my eyesight
Darren Islar: ah :-)
arabella Ella: oh yes Qt now i see the box in mid air hiding behind your name
arabella Ella: :)
Eos Amaterasu: after or while attending a model airplane show
Eliza Madrigal: how many embedded beliefs does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop?
Eos Amaterasu: & Eliza noted something similar re bonsai exhibition
Darren Islar: this mornign I thought it was one of Yaku's boxes
arabella Ella: what is a tootsi roll pop?
Eos Amaterasu: see, there's 3 at least (beliefs)
Eliza Madrigal: heheh....
arabella Ella: something we dont have in europe i guess?
Eliza Madrigal: (sorry) hehhe. It was a bad play on a classic tv commercial :)
Mickorod Renard: well,,I was reading a science journal today,,it still appears that cutting edge science still cannot say for certain we exist
Darren Islar: have no idea either Ara
arabella Ella: :)
Eos Amaterasu: that must have the physicists worried
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: i think someone mentioned it on another occasion and it is possibly a sweet for kids in the USA
Maxine Walden: better for your teeth that you don't have Tootsie rolls in Europe, Ara
arabella Ella: :)
Eos Amaterasu: how about almond cookies?
Eliza Madrigal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IA5Cv_5-g8
arabella Ella: yummy Eos ... and all the memories!
Mickorod Renard: Its all a conspiracy,,to make us eat less sweets and believe what we are being told
Eos Amaterasu: "I never made it without biting" :-)
Mickorod Renard: I am a true rebel,,I eat sweets in abandon
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: language itself, the language you speak or read at the moment, has layers of beliefs, implicit meanings
arabella Ella: he he funny and silly commercial
Eos Amaterasu: I'm discoverying that through reading a translation in another language of a text I know
Eliza Madrigal: how interesting Eos, say more?
Eos Amaterasu: it's like finding further riches that were not quite expressible in the first language
Qt Core: as usually words in different languages aren't 100% corresponding you notice the differences when reading a translation, noticing whet you lost or what you gained
Maxine Walden: so interesting, eos, and do you find also that when you think you are thinking/saying something to others or just oneself, that sometimes you take detours as well, saying things you had not really been thinking about? sort of hard to know all of what one is thinking?
arabella Ella: yes quite a few of Wittgenstein's books are published in both German and English which makes reading them fascinating
Eliza Madrigal: shows you that something you thought was fixed actually has more room/flexibility I guess ...
Eos Amaterasu: yes, Maxine, it often seems there's an intention you're following when you say something, which is not "articluated" before you say it, and so the process of trying to say it draw out stuff in there you handn't known before
Maxine Walden: agree, eos
Mickorod Renard: yes, i can understand that eos
Eos Amaterasu: and the model planes were for Mick a phenomenal experience that spoke more than just themselves
Eos Amaterasu: ?
Mickorod Renard: hi yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: so maybe we have the illusion of our thoughts being defined by the words we use, but that really not being the case
Eos Amaterasu: we use words or art to convey being
Eos Amaterasu: model being
Maxine Walden: :))
Mickorod Renard: it is hard to understand some thoughts without first putting them into words in the head
Mickorod Renard: this I think must be a down side of words
Mickorod Renard: as we didnt always have words
Eos Amaterasu: what did we have?
arabella Ella: we had sound though didnt we?
Eos Amaterasu: hmm
Mickorod Renard: well,i was thinking of just what goes on inside our heads when we think to ourselves
Maxine Walden: or before a child has verbal language he/she has the experience of the patch of sun on the wall, and then when his mother calls it 'yellow' he/she may have a more diminished experience
Mickorod Renard: thats the point I was steering towards max
Maxine Walden: ah...
arabella Ella: i dont think words diminish anything really
arabella Ella: they help us to remember our experiences well into the future
arabella Ella: they create increased memories
Eos Amaterasu: Aquinas called matter "debile esse" : diminished to-be
arabella Ella: and they help us to communicate with agreed upon terms
Darren Islar: but it also fixes things
Calvino Rabeni: agree, language can add a lot
Darren Islar: word I mean
arabella Ella: but language evolves too
arabella Ella: changes
Eliza Madrigal: if we don't lose touch with the original alive connection, then words are vibrant...
Maxine Walden: several diverse views on language and words
Eos Amaterasu: through words and phrases we interiorize being
Mickorod Renard: language must add more, but has it also diminished an alternative form of sense?
Maxine Walden: good question, Mick
arabella Ella: just try to imagine SL or virtual worlds or PaB without language as we know it
Darren Islar: I think so Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes,words are good for communication
Mickorod Renard: as too are pictures
Darren Islar: I think you are right Ara, and that is the good side of speaking a language
Eliza Madrigal nods... words paint pictures... which seem somehow a step closer to sensation, feeling .... metaphor
Eos Amaterasu: the word or the art-work is both itself and suggesting more than itself
Darren Islar: but it is weird that when you speak more then one, you can also find diferences in how words feel and even in meaning
Darren Islar: sometimes an english word fits better then a Dutch one or the other way around
arabella Ella nods
Darren Islar: even the sound of a language makes me feel different
Eliza Madrigal found herself pondering the word 'verse' in universe today... a word I see several times a day but hadn't played with opening
Maxine Walden: and then there is the sentiment behind the spoken word...different sentiments to the same word may make a difference
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Darren Islar: English gives me another feeling then speaking Dutch
arabella Ella: ever here Darren, those who came to the retreat noticed how much (and how naturally) we code switch between languages here
Darren Islar: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i have the same feeling darren
Eliza Madrigal: textures? or change of view?
arabella Ella: amongst ourselves we pick and choose whichever word is most appropriate from two or more languages
Darren Islar: yes I can imagine that Ara
Darren Islar: I thnk both Eliz
Darren Islar: Eiza
arabella Ella: the three languages generally being Maltese, English and Italian
Darren Islar: Eliza!!!!1
Qt Core: after the more intense session i feel a language uncertainity in rl, using english syntax in italian (and that's ugly)
Mickorod Renard: can we think of any other forms of civilisation/ community in the animal world where words do not feature much?
Eliza Madrigal giggles @ Darren... any or all variations are fine
Eos Amaterasu: songs of the humpback whale and of dolphins?
Maxine Walden: (upcoming 90 sec: what to focus on in the pause?)
Darren Islar: (how many times can you write a name as Eliza wrong :-)))
arabella Ella: bats use sonar ... an example for Eos perhaps?
Eos Amaterasu: Being speaking through word
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: the many ways Being speaks to us, maybe I will ponder that
Darren Islar: the strangest thing is that generally spoken the English language feels more close to me then the Dutch
Mickorod Renard: ants outnumber humans and have proberbly been in existance longer,,they live in a society and presumably dont use words
Yakuzza Lethecus: english for me also covers totally different content from what i use in everyday life in german
Darren Islar: they use sent
arabella Ella: ??
Qt Core: chemical signals
Eos Amaterasu: scent... formic acid...
Mickorod Renard: chanel?
arabella Ella: oh ... scent
Eos Amaterasu: #9
Darren Islar: sorry, you're right QT
Mickorod Renard: we do too
Eos Amaterasu: smell that changes your inner being systems, hormones
Darren Islar: (that doesn't mean my english is perfect :-))))
Eos Amaterasu: twirls your knobs
arabella Ella: no worries Darren your English is excellent
Darren Islar: thanks Ara
Maxine Walden: many languages it seems and during the 90 sec just now I 'heard' the birds of SL, and thought of the RL natural sounds, language of vastness,the breathing of the trees, etc. Different ways Being 'speaks'
Qt Core: every time i read pab (especially if not in its acronym i can't avoid thinking about the difference about play and its italian translation, they are so different (the english being much richer)
Eos Amaterasu: yes, being speaking through cathedrals of empty phenomenality
Darren Islar: hi Joe
Maxine Walden: hi, Joe
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen and Joe
arabella Ella: this is even more interesting as many of us here can easily compare different languages
Mickorod Renard: but what i wonder is,,has using words took us on an evolutionary path that is quite diferent from an alternative path
Eos Amaterasu: what is Play as Being in Italian?
Eliza Madrigal thought of opera and various contexts in which someone in a language not understood, evokes Being... tone, expression ... longing to longing
Darren Islar: hi Zen
Qt Core: something like giocando ad essere
Darren Islar is still not having any idea of being and is dropping the remarks about it
arabella Ella: ah ... with connotations for La Gioconda Qt ... the italian name for the Mona Lisa :)
Qt Core: but the difference is that giocare, the verb means only to play a game, not an instrument, or an act
Qt Core: that is an old form, more like the happy girl ;-)
Mickorod Renard: thats a goood question darren
Eos Amaterasu: joke giocare?
arabella Ella: a joke is un scherzo
Mickorod Renard: well,,not so much a question but a statement
Qt Core: same source, but no, not the same meaning
Eos Amaterasu: "all play the game of existence till the end, of the beginning" - Beatles
Darren Islar: yes, because I dropped the question several times
Mickorod Renard: maybe being is what u are left with when u have dropped everything
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: hey Joe, don't be afraid
Qt Core: sometimes i find that the best translation could be "far finta di essere" more like "fake to be"
Darren Islar: wb Cal
arabella Ella: wb Calvino
Eos Amaterasu: essay as essere
Darren Islar: well, my problem is that you can have a lot of thoughts about 'bing' but I feel it isn;t growing on me
Calvino Rabeni: thx ara - random crash
Eos Amaterasu: essayez essere
arabella Ella: how would you say it in French Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: multi-lingual PaB
Eos Amaterasu: jouez a la ...
Mickorod Renard: darren,i can admit to you that I too have great difficulties there
arabella Ella: so French seems to be similar to Italian there
Darren Islar: I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one :-)
Qt Core: different languages as different filtered lenses to observe thought ?
Eos Amaterasu: jouez a la existence (doesn't quite do it - Eden would know)
Mickorod Renard: but then i have ather reasons for a blockage in that region
Mickorod Renard: other*
Darren Islar: :-)
Eliza Madrigal sees it as seeing through embedded patterns... like I can see that my typist 'S' is playing as Eliza... but can I see that 'S' is a play, too?
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eos Amaterasu: from earliest days S learned to play as S
Eliza Madrigal: and if I can see that, who is it that is seeing that? etc. hah
Darren Islar: I know what you mean Eliza, but I wonder if that is 'being'
Mickorod Renard: I still believe in God..so for me exploring being is just an extension of my exploring everything
Eos Amaterasu: that way of seeing could be a way to being seeing
Darren Islar: I understand Mick
Mickorod Renard: ty
Darren Islar: 'could be'
arabella Ella: isn't 'Being' our very existence?
Eliza Madrigal: its just one way of viewing views I guess...
Maxine Walden: another pause coming up.
Zen Arado: I prefer the term 'awareness'
Eliza Madrigal: realizing that we are mired in patterns we don't realize and that seeing through them might make way for Being to shine
Eos Amaterasu: notice your viewing
Darren Islar: I know becoming aware, patterns, dualism, things that seems to paradoxal but aren't, but what is you seeing and what is being seeing
Mickorod Renard: I think the main thing is not to be obstructive in ones explorations, but be open to discoveries
--BELL--
Darren Islar: leavin it wide open can be a obstruction in itself
Eliza Madrigal nods re discoveries
Maxine Walden: Afraid I have to go. Been a good discussion
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Maxine :)
Mickorod Renard: but it is an exploration,,or even an experiment if u wish
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now
Zen Arado: bye Maxine
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye maxine
Maxine Walden: see you all again soon, I hope
Darren Islar: bye Maxine
Mickorod Renard: bye max
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Darren Islar: bye Eos
Mickorod Renard: bye eos
Eos Amaterasu: Also leaving, thanks all!
Eliza Madrigal: the play is the thing... :)
Zen Arado: bye Eos
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: been ufn
Darren Islar: bye Yaku
Eos Amaterasu: *fun
arabella Ella: bye to those leaving
Qt Core: bye Eos
Mickorod Renard: yes,,nice 2 c u
Darren Islar: our mind, or at least mind, is not used to leaving things open
Darren Islar: it needs to learn that
Darren Islar: but how?
Eliza Madrigal: Eden used a beautiful metaphor.... of a bird flapping its wings
Zen Arado: questioning assumptions is a start
Zen Arado: I started that in phiosophy
Eliza Madrigal: holding things open, Zen?
Darren Islar: I know, you know, something is growing on me
Darren Islar: but is it being
Darren Islar: actually I don't think so
Zen Arado: yes..so many things we take for granted
Darren Islar: I think most of it is you seeing
Darren Islar: becoming aware of the reality as it presents itself to us
Darren Islar: questioning that
Zen Arado: or our view of it
Darren Islar: to me that sounds like you seeing
Darren Islar: yes
Zen Arado: outr concept of it
Zen Arado: yes just a different way of putting it
Mickorod Renard: perceptions
Eliza Madrigal: Well this is why its an exploration perhaps and not a belief
Zen Arado: I see the same ideas crop up in so many spiritual teachers
Darren Islar: all you seeing to me
Zen Arado: and even in ancient philosophers
Zen Arado: ways of exploring reality
Darren Islar: relative reality
Zen Arado: who am i? what is reality?
Zen Arado: wb Cal
Darren Islar: you know you seeing and being seeing suggest differen 'levels'
Darren Islar: I see different levels in buddhism
Calvino Rabeni: Crash caused by a lightning storm, actually
Darren Islar: don't understand them all
Darren Islar: but I do understand what I am working at
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: I think at some stage there is a sense of deflation,,that the exploration moves at a regular pace
Zen Arado: so..wait and see?
Darren Islar: I don't 'feel' that with you seeing and being seeing
arabella Ella: wb Calvino
Darren Islar: wb Cal
Calvino Rabeni: thanks
Eliza Madrigal: Some things we turn over for months and months and then suddenly they are open
Darren Islar: I don't think waiting is doing the 'trick'
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni hears thunder in the distance
Eliza Madrigal: like koans
Zen Arado: yes
Mickorod Renard: making space in your life is a stepping stone to becoming more aware
Eliza Madrigal: then they are open, and they always were... because we are
Zen Arado: yes
Darren Islar: I know
Eliza Madrigal: and always were. Strange logic I know :))
Zen Arado: we close ourselves off
Zen Arado: for ego protection perhaps
arabella Ella hates thunder ... scarey stuff
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Mick re space... making room for not understanding/not knowing perhaps?
Eliza Madrigal: not taking 'nothing' for granted anymore
Zen Arado: investigating everything
Zen Arado: investigate emotions
Qt Core: time to go, bye all
Zen Arado: bye Qt
Zen Arado: good section in 'Book of not knowing
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone goin
Zen Arado: man yells at wife...why?
Darren Islar: bye Mick
Zen Arado: he is angry..Why?
Mickorod Renard: I am still here,,but may go soon
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: she said something that hurt
arabella Ella: why Zen?
Zen Arado: etc
arabella Ella: why?
Zen Arado: why did it hurt?
Zen Arado: maybe his wife doesn't love him...he thinks
Zen Arado: whay does that worry him?
Zen Arado: if no one loves you you are worthless belief
--BELL--
arabella Ella: but her saying the wrong thing and him being angry does not imply there is no love
arabella Ella: oooops
Darren Islar has still no answer about the difference between you seeing an being seeing and will 'drop' the 'issue'
Zen Arado: just an example of alowing ourselves to examine underlying beliefs
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interpretations... what we 'add on' to what is actually there...
Zen Arado: more than that Eliza
Darren Islar: whispers: I know
arabella Ella: noooo please dont drop it Darren ... I dont blame you for feeling like that but you were not here when Pema used to speak about it here
Zen Arado: uncovering assumptions
Zen Arado: until you get to a 'core belief'
Zen Arado: no keep going Daren
Darren Islar can't help himself
Zen Arado: sorry for rabbiting on
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, Okay... presuppositions
arabella Ella: well for me Being is like some sort of mindfulness
Eliza Madrigal: Not at all Darren :) This is how we all learn
Darren Islar: but what is making us sure we are going into the right direction
Mickorod Renard: maybe wife is feeelin undervalued and wants to bring husband down for company?
Darren Islar: "sure"
Zen Arado: I'm not
arabella Ella: and there is internal mindfulness and external mindfulness ... external being us transposing ourselves elsewhere and looking at ourselves somehow ... in simple terms
Zen Arado: yes Mick but have to keep to your own emotions
Darren Islar: we can well develop strenght and become the opposite of what we would like to be
Mickorod Renard: ohh ok
arabella Ella: Pema always told us we could do BS or the other exervcises in our own individual way
Zen Arado: but what we are truly is more important?
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Ara
Mickorod Renard: well,,one thing 4 sure,,best not to react in the usual emotional way
Eliza Madrigal: so personal... the very idea is 'direct' experience
Darren Islar: that is where I have doubts Ara
Mickorod Renard: just slap her
Zen Arado: yes...experiencing for ourselves
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella: where do you mean you have doubts Darren?
Zen Arado: understanding why we react the way we do
Darren Islar: Pema always told us we could do BS or the other exervcises in our own individual way
arabella Ella: yes ... meaning different people may find their own way to do it ... same as meditation too
arabella Ella: differennt paths
Eliza Madrigal: it didn't click for me until doing a sustained exercize... the 'idea' didn't make sense
Darren Islar: meditation is bonded to boundaries
Eliza Madrigal: and I'm sure there is lots of room there still
arabella Ella: but meditation involves different paths
Eliza Madrigal: for exploration
Zen Arado: I think Pema just offers a practice to try?
Darren Islar: there are certain things you can do in a meditation and certain things you can't
Darren Islar: I think Liza will elaborate on that tomorrow :-))
arabella Ella nods ... also in BS
Zen Arado: I think it is useful for bringing meditation into our daily life more
Darren Islar: so what are the rules?
Eliza Madrigal: The discussions on the theme page are quite helpful... but maybe better to just start at the beginning/end and ask 'anew'
arabella Ella: ah ... where is Pema ... come help us out please Pema!!!!
Darren Islar: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: heheh.... what time is it in Japan?
arabella Ella: he he
Darren Islar: but maybe that is it Ara
Darren Islar: I don't see anyone who can guide us through this
Eliza Madrigal: beyond rules/beyond beliefs...
Darren Islar: nobody told me what to do and especially what not to do
Darren Islar: sure Eliza, but that is where you start
arabella Ella: well let's put on record ... Pema please come back and give us some more theme sessions on Being (hopefully he will read the chat log)
Darren Islar: my mind can't think yet beyond rules
Mickorod Renard: I recall at some long lost time ,,many months ago,,Pema did some phenemology stuff,,like meditation,,and it did lean towards being
Zen Arado: I don't like rules
Eliza Madrigal: so when you get to the end of yourself, your words.... what kicks in?
arabella Ella: i know this may sound silly but somewhere i think Pema said it is a bit like a 'jump start' ... to get us all to be more mindful in our daily lives (if i got it right)
Darren Islar: I have been to one of those session, when I first came here
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Ara
Darren Islar: but don't really find answers there
Mickorod Renard: I think it was before that Darren
arabella Ella: those were the last sessions Darren which had built upon previous ones where we were all very confused ... initially i mean
Eliza Madrigal: drop what you have to see what you are, is basically the same thing
Darren Islar: then why are we talking about being and not about the reality as we perceive it
Mickorod Renard: when was it Ara,,when we forst did phenem here with pema?
arabella Ella: about two years ago Mick
arabella Ella: around April 2008
Mickorod Renard: lol
arabella Ella: that was soon after PaB started
Darren Islar: I like to keep it close to home
Eliza Madrigal: its a great idea to begin at the beginning again... sounds like fun
Darren Islar: thinking about my own patterns, my one 'beliefs', feeling where I can get hurt and whatit means to me
Mickorod Renard: but it may be worth reading those logs,,it may give inspiration for meditation
Darren Islar: but what on earth is 'being'
Eliza Madrigal: Sure, Mick... and the recent phenom workshop discussions too
Zen Arado: I see trues self, being, awareness as just different terms for the same thing -am I wrong?
Darren Islar: I don;t know Zen, I think that is my question
Eliza Madrigal: "seeing can't be taught"
Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
arabella Ella: oh nooooo mosquitoes attacking me ... how can i 'drop' that?
arabella Ella: helppppppp
Darren Islar: right Eliza, but somebody needs to tell me if I am on the right road
Calvino Rabeni: About "being" - I was listening to some of the tapes audiodharma, that Paradise likes
Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
Darren Islar: draft might help Ara
arabella Ella: it is too warm here already Darren
Eliza Madrigal: which site Calvino?
arabella Ella: that's why we already have mosquitoes
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: What caught my ear was, early buddhism didn' t so much look at human nature or being, as at human capacities - it puts a different spin on ht
Darren Islar: a fan maybe :-)
Darren Islar: I mean :?
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: I think,,in my opinion,,,is that as we dont really know anything for sure,,being is what ever is that our conciousness is in connection with that links all things
Darren Islar: well, in my head I have all these things that can say something about being
Calvino Rabeni: could it be, the wanting of staticness and answers came more recently?
Darren Islar: but I don't know about my experiences
Zen Arado: to me awareness has to be discovered by ....contemplation or meditation...alowing other things to drop away
Eliza Madrigal: :) Mick.... connection...about uncovering Life that is there all the time
Darren Islar: but do you feel it all the time Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: and then seeing that everything we dropped was none other than that too
Darren Islar: do you really know that it is there
Mickorod Renard: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Hm... actually I think feeling is part of what has to be seen through
Zen Arado: yes
Darren Islar: or is Darren a guy from PaB
Eliza Madrigal: that whether the clouds block the sun or not, the sun is there
Darren Islar: true Eliza
Zen Arado: feelings make us suffer so much
Darren Islar: so what is it then?
Darren Islar: I can sometimes feel connection with someone
Calvino Rabeni: The process view versus the "thing-with-state" view
Darren Islar: but when I leave here, I leave Mick, Ara, Zen you and Cal behind
arabella Ella: if one of you could help with this ... there were also the sessions we had with Stim ... where for example if someone was being a bit of a pain we could try to drop that and to try to see things from the perspective of the other person ... thereby annihilating the whole bad feeling
Mickorod Renard: from a phenemology point of view,,we are nothing arnt we?
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, Darren, I still think of U when neither is logged into SL :)
Eliza Madrigal: sun shining through the cracks.... in our words, in our jokes... in our sadnesses and confusions
arabella Ella: i still think of you too Darren :)
Darren Islar: right Ara, but to me that is close by like you seeing
Darren Islar: experimenting a bit with another perspective
Zen Arado: we can do Tonglen for each other
arabella Ella: the other perspective is Being Seing
Darren Islar: helps too Zen
Eliza Madrigal: well, even on a basic level, communications is enhancing our capacities toward appreciation and connection
Darren Islar: all true :-)))
Mickorod Renard: as we are nothing,,mostly,,we are all connected by nothing
Darren Islar: sorry, can't put my finger on it
Zen Arado: we separate ourselves
Calvino Rabeni: Then to play the same in the other direction - could I be closer to you, Darren, or Ara, then "right now"?
Darren Islar: nice Mick, but what does it mean
arabella Ella: it involved both 'dropping' and 'appreciating'
arabella Ella: dropping bad feelings
Darren Islar: but what is it we drop?
Darren Islar: oh so many questions
arabella Ella: dropping attachments
arabella Ella: dropping everything superflous
Mickorod Renard: it means,,something wierd is going on,,and I want to know what it is
Darren Islar: what is attachment and what is experience
Zen Arado: we need patience too
Darren Islar: I know Zen, even that is not myproblem
Zen Arado: with ourselves and others
Calvino Rabeni: There's the zen story of the full teacup - it had to be emptied, to be able to be filled with something fresh
arabella Ella: an easy example of attachment is our attachment to material things ... most of which we don't really need ... we need not even desire them
Zen Arado: yep
Eliza Madrigal: wineskins :)
Mickorod Renard: Cal,,is that a Zen story?
Mickorod Renard: its special to me
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: me too
arabella Ella: lovely
Darren Islar: true Ara, but that is easy, now about the real attachements, the one we feel to life
Zen Arado: there's a good artic;le on it
Calvino Rabeni: Zen would know the background of that story I think
Darren Islar: our problems with musqitoes
Mickorod Renard: isnt it the fragile vessel storry too?
Darren Islar: we like to kill them for herassing us
arabella Ella: yes Darren we feel attachments in RL, to other people for example, but nothing is permanent
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Ara
arabella Ella: ah ... mosquitoes and cockroaches ... although I tend to like spiders myself :)
Calvino Rabeni: How many people, have an attachment to not feeling, which is known as an "aversion"
Eliza Madrigal: that seems part of it.... individual beings may come and go from our lives
Darren Islar: again, sounds really nice
Mickorod Renard: Cal, if u find the link to the story I wud love a copy
Darren Islar: sorry
Eliza Madrigal: Also a link to the audio you mentioned if you would, Cal :)
arabella Ella: like those who have kids and who have extra strong attachments to their kids ... which result in suffering ... which could be overcome, dropped
Darren Islar: how?
Darren Islar: how do we drop kids, life itself, ourselves
Mickorod Renard: I would like an illustrated copy , pref erably in gold gilt edging
Darren Islar: never mind, we are going in circles
Darren Islar: but thanks for thinking with me
arabella Ella: but not being over protective, by giving space to others, by appreciating the fact that others have different perspectives, by appreciating that others may be 'cruel' to us for other reasons than those we may consider
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, like this morning my daughter said something mean to me... and I immediately started attaching to it pity for myself "Oh, mother's day, oh, all the money I spent on parties yesterday'... then realized how silly... that it wasn't personal at all
Eliza Madrigal: she was sad about something
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: I had to see through my own 'stuff'
Mickorod Renard: yes, this is important
Eliza Madrigal: and connect with *her*
arabella Ella: we have so much baggage which we dont really need at all
arabella Ella: by the way Storm and Stim are both very good at explaining all this
Calvino Rabeni: @eliza, I think it is the "Energy" talk on the following list http://www.audiodharma.org/talks-sevenfactorsofawakening.html
Mickorod Renard: we can learn to see the bigger picture,,in this we can be more compasionate
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Cal :)
Eliza Madrigal nods, yes compassion is always available... even when we don't 'feel' it
Eliza Madrigal: nice to remind one another :)
arabella Ella: yes and compassion is something we definitely need to cultivate
arabella Ella: and all this helps us to overcome suffering i guess
Zen Arado: and help others to as well
Zen Arado: hopefully
Calvino Rabeni: One open secret is - suffering is mostly, an add-on that is an aversion to suffering, which inflates it tremendously
Darren Islar: :-)
arabella Ella nods
Eliza Madrigal: yes, hm, back to perspective and proportion
arabella Ella: to me it sounds similar to 'mind over matter' somehow
arabella Ella: by developing mindfulness and compassion
arabella Ella: and dropping excessive attachments
--BELL--
Darren Islar: all true, I admit :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Dropping is half the story - perhaps that is one lesson of those audiodharma talks - there's a piece about desire and being "fervent" about taking life lustfully :)
Darren Islar: and belief me, I don't question that
arabella Ella: could you spell that our Calvino please?
Darren Islar: you know Shamatha Vispasyana has nine steps
Darren Islar: the first step is awareness
Darren Islar: eight to go
Mickorod Renard: somewhere i found that by being nothing was a very special thing,,making life so special,,and me inluded in that,,so realy I was more
Darren Islar: (sorry)
Zen Arado: Two Zen monks were walking through the woods. Suddenly, one Zen monk turned to the other and slapped him. Ouch! Why did you do that! cried the slapped monk. The first said I am a Zen monk, I can get away with shit like that. It is so very simple. And the ego loves to complicate it. Really, there [...]
Mickorod Renard: grin
Darren Islar: true Zen
Calvino Rabeni: Impulses, desires, wishes, the pleasure impulse, etc, become truer to the path, more trustable, with practice
Calvino Rabeni: So - lots to look forward to, eh? :)
arabella Ella giggles at Zen's anecdote
Zen Arado: I better go :)
Eliza Madrigal: desire as path seems okay to me
Eliza Madrigal giggles
arabella Ella: bye Zen
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen :))
Darren Islar: bye Zen
Zen Arado: bye all
Mickorod Renard: bye Zen
Calvino Rabeni: Funny, those zen dudes are always slapping :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
Calvino Rabeni: Mind yourself Zen:
Zen Arado: :)
Darren Islar: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Take care :)))))
arabella Ella: i suppose the question arises ... can we drop all desire ... but that will have to wait as i must go now
Eliza Madrigal: the zen dudes wake us up
arabella Ella: nite everyone and thanks for the chat :)
Mickorod Renard: Cal,,if you could direct me to the tale of the replenished water?
Darren Islar: :-) bye Ara
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Ara, thanks to you too
Calvino Rabeni: Just drop the black seeds, Ara
Mickorod Renard: some day
arabella Ella: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, be well <3
Mickorod Renard: nite Ara
Eliza Madrigal: Oh,... something about meditation: If a newcomer does have questions or concerns, I encourage them to try it first and ask questions after. Someone sitting for the first time can learn more about meditation in thirty real-time minutes than any experienced meditator can explain to them in that same amount of time. Because meditation isn’t about following directions down a mental highway: it’s an off-road adventure. - Barry Evans, "Less is More
Calvino Rabeni: @mick, I'll google a bit
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Mickorod Renard: I have tried to find it in the past
Mickorod Renard: maybe another version I dont know
Darren Islar: there are rules to meditation meant to make sure you be aware and open
Calvino Rabeni: Google smiles upon us with "I'm Feeling Lucky"
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.101zenstories.com/index.php?story=1
Darren Islar: it sounds like a contrast, but it isn't
Darren Islar: I guess I am looking for those kind of rules
Mickorod Renard: thanks cal,,ur a gem
Darren Islar: rules that doesn't difined the road, but is keeping you on the road
Calvino Rabeni: All the credit goes to Google, Mick (he said modestly)
Mickorod Renard: ok, I must go to bed
Eliza Madrigal: Night Mick
Darren Islar: nite Mick
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I see Darren... like vows that are liberating
Calvino Rabeni: Good night, dream well :)
Darren Islar: yes, like vows
Mickorod Renard: thankyou so much, i will check it out and tell u a lil story bout it one day
Mickorod Renard: bye all
Darren Islar: ....that are liberating
Darren Islar: instead of confining something
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes if I feel I'm not relating to something but it has me interested... I'll try to dig even deeper... like hm... asking what's beneath that? can I touch that/see that?
Calvino Rabeni: It's always situational
Calvino Rabeni: Like the zen story - cross the river, then drop the boat
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Darren Islar: well I don't know about that Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Although, there are certain "vows" worth holding a long time
Darren Islar: the context of course makes you interprate a certain rule
Darren Islar: but like using your breathing as a meditation-object
Calvino Rabeni: And the interpretation ask you to ask yourself about yourself :)
Darren Islar: to make 'sure' you are not getting distracted
Darren Islar: I can think of rules of how we can approach being
Calvino Rabeni: Another way to think of it is - people have diifferent characters, different states of development, need different "help" at different times
Calvino Rabeni: "One size fits all" rules are not workable
Darren Islar: an eventhen, maybe the breathing IS the distraction
Darren Islar: I know Cal
Calvino Rabeni: I know you know :)
Eliza Madrigal: sustaining attention... holding open space until acclimated.... then dropping that
Darren Islar: but the rules I am talking about is helping you asking questions
Darren Islar: helping, not getting in the way of it
Calvino Rabeni: Once I had a teach who gave me a simple, difficult assignment
Calvino Rabeni: "Every day, do something that is uncharacteristic of yourself"
Eliza Madrigal: "Don't be predictable"
Eliza Madrigal: (lojong)
Darren Islar: I have telling that for years to people in the AA
Calvino Rabeni: RIght maybe also "consistent"
Eliza Madrigal nods
Calvino Rabeni: It's a hard assignment
Darren Islar: yes, it is consistant and at the same time it doesn't define what it does with you
Darren Islar: but it helps you to get another perspective
Darren Islar: it is a great tool
Darren Islar: but I have tools for becoming aware
Darren Islar: and at the same time the more I get aware, the more questions I get
Darren Islar: needing tools to appraoch that
Eliza Madrigal: well at least more fun/precise the questions get
--BELL--
Darren Islar: I didn't mean to make this night so complicated :-)))
Calvino Rabeni: It's Live, Darren :))
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, glad you did Darren :) That's why I'm here this long :))
Calvino Rabeni: *Life
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes its also fun to pretend we don't know something we think we do.... then see what we thought we knew, anew
Darren Islar: and it is probably why I have a headache now, to much thinking for me :-))
Calvino Rabeni: It is a service for others, if you like
Eliza Madrigal is sounding like Dr Seuss
Eliza Madrigal: Or Pema, take your pick
Eliza Madrigal: ahahhahah
Eliza Madrigal giggles and leaves it to Maxine whether to leave that or not ;-) he'll hear the spirit intended
Darren Islar: Dr Seuss?
Calvino Rabeni: Child book rhymer in English
Darren Islar: ah
Calvino Rabeni: WIth varous moral tales for children
Darren Islar: ah
Calvino Rabeni: What I mostly remember is the illustrations
Calvino Rabeni: DO you recall that Eliza, the child's mind stimulated by the pictures in the Seuss books?
Eliza Madrigal: "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened.” Dr. Seuss quote
Eliza Madrigal: child's mind?
Darren Islar: wow
Eliza Madrigal: I'm a huge Seuss fan...
Calvino Rabeni: Literally, one's mind as a child, reading those books
Darren Islar: we had this program for children when I was still little
Calvino Rabeni: a different mind than now
Darren Islar: it was a lot of fun with animal dolls
Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh yes Calvino. I wondered if you were talking about a specific illustration
Darren Islar: but I didn't understand the stories very well
Calvino Rabeni: Each of the pictures set off an explosion of fantasies and scenarios
Darren Islar: even remember the song
Darren Islar: but later on I found out that is was more fun for adults :-)
Eliza Madrigal: there are some writers for children that adults would do well to read :)
Eliza Madrigal: snap
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: What was that one - (searching fuzzy memory bank)
Eliza Madrigal: My favorite Seuss may be "The Lorax" which is an activist book really....
Eliza Madrigal: "I am the Lorax I speak for the trees"
Calvino Rabeni: They are social and political parables
Eliza Madrigal: talking about everyone 'biggering and biggering..." If we'd all read that book, the meltdown might now have happened :)
Eliza Madrigal: indeed Cal
Eliza Madrigal: *not=now
Calvino Rabeni: Letting things run out of control - being selfish, having insight, bragging, the works!
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed
Calvino Rabeni: Seeing around the world
Darren Islar is smiling over all those memories
Calvino Rabeni: (Who has the best eyesight)
Eliza Madrigal: “I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient in living, It's a way of looking at life through the wrong end of a telescope. Which is what I do, And that enables you to laugh at life's realities.” Dr. Seuss
Darren Islar: you remember that from your head?
Calvino Rabeni: Not to leave the children's world, but science has also shown nonsense sharpens thinking
Calvino Rabeni: It's been demonstrated, in other words
Darren Islar: or googling it
Eliza Madrigal shakes head 'no' darren... there are some that I do but this quote is new to me
Eliza Madrigal: I did google that :)
Darren Islar: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Calvino, Science in what way?
Calvino Rabeni: Some psychology experiment, showed some thinking test worked better after subjects were shown some random/chaotic information
Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, can't get the details. The idea was, an amount of chaos helps the mind work better
Eliza Madrigal: Ah... okay... I think I did see that on the arts&letters daily site months ago
Darren Islar: can you find me a dr Seuss picture Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: OK
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.google.com/images?q=dr.+seuss+illustration
Eliza Madrigal: there are youtube videos also... the books drawn out and narrated
Darren Islar: thansk Cal
Eliza Madrigal: hm, actually the videos are awful
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to wander to see Storm's prayer wheels... read that he installed chanting...
Calvino Rabeni: As a young child, I remember being excited by a book about a boy who had a crayon that would actually create his reality
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.google.com/images?q="harold+and+the+purple+crayon"
Calvino Rabeni: Virtual reality, years ago
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Eliza
Darren Islar: bye Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Oh.... want to click that... one sec
Calvino Rabeni: It is a childhood classic like the Seuss books
Darren Islar: I know that little guy
Calvino Rabeni: Great little dude
Eliza Madrigal: Ah! I remember those
Calvino Rabeni: And, of course, "Curious George" the monkey
Calvino Rabeni: that's the big three of child classics
Eliza Madrigal: Okay... thanks guys. Bye for now :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now :)
Darren Islar: thansk Eliza, bye :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm off, take care Darren
Darren Islar: nite Cal, see you
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_