2010.05.12 13:00 - Lessons and Turbulances

The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

Wol Euler: wednesday may 12, 1pm
--BELL--
Wol Euler: hello fef, darren
Darren Islar: hi Wol, Fonz
Fefonz Quan: hello Wol, Darren
Darren Islar: hi sharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Wol, Fefonz and Darren :)
Fefonz Quan: hi sophiasharon
Wol Euler: hello sharon
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Yakuzza :)
Darren Islar: hi Yaku
Fefonz Quan: hi Yaku!
Wol Euler: hello yaku
Darren Islar: hi Wool
Wol Euler: hello wool
Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Darren
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Woolcinder
Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wool
Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Sophia
Fefonz Quan: hi Wool
Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Yakuzza, Fefonz
SophiaSharon Larnia: whoops have to go, take care everyone ^^
Wol Euler: bye sharon, take care
Darren Islar: bye Sharon
Darren Islar: how is everyone today?
Wol Euler: mellow
Fefonz Quan: Hello Eloza!
Woolcinder Oxidor: i just had a bath..very calm
Darren Islar: nice :-)
Darren Islar: hi Eliza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eliza
Woolcinder Oxidor: Hello Eliza
Fefonz Quan: that sounds calming :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fef! Hi Darren, and Wol, and Yakuzza, and Wool :)
Wol Euler: hello eliza
Wol Euler: nice outfit.
Darren Islar: always a nice question: did somebody learn something this week?
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks!
Wol Euler: hmmmmm
Fefonz Quan: I have learned, i try to remember what it was... :)
Darren Islar: :-) so do I actually
Eliza Madrigal smiles... yes.... hm, rummaging through
Darren Islar: but maybe it should be part of the nine sec. to become more aware of that
Fefonz Quan: more aware of what?
--BELL--
Darren Islar: of the changes in perception we experience during the day
Eliza Madrigal: That question makes a week seem like a huge amount of time
Fefonz Quan: indeed eliza
Eliza Madrigal: but hm, yes during one day... hhmmm
Darren Islar: a day?
Darren Islar: last hour?
Eliza Madrigal: Now we're getting somewhere
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: I have learned that i need some tome alone with myself during the week
Fefonz Quan: time*
Wol Euler nods.
Woolcinder Oxidor: i have learnt that you have no rights to force others to see the world as you percieve it
Eliza Madrigal drove a girl home from school today, who is returning to Haiti in the next few day, having had all of her friends scattered around the US
Eliza Madrigal: (this was the last hr)
Fefonz Quan: Hi calvino!
Eliza Madrigal: She may be returning to live in a tent... but somehow people appreciate their sense of 'home' ground
Wol Euler: hello calvino
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
Darren Islar: hi Cal
Wol Euler: oh wow
Fefonz Quan: we discuss the following question:
Woolcinder Oxidor: hello Cal
Darren Islar: what does that experience mean to you?
Wol Euler: was she here already when the earthquake happened?
Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone :)
Darren Islar: mor time, no to force opinions on others
Fefonz Quan: [13:13] Darren Islar: always a nice question: did somebody learn something this week?
Eliza Madrigal: No... she and her family were displaced... house destroyed, etc
Darren Islar: somebody who prefers home above a good house
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: That is a nice question. :)
Woolcinder Oxidor: its very humbling
Fefonz Quan: 'brb
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Wool
Darren Islar: hmm :-) at Wool
Woolcinder Oxidor: haiti is a very sad love story
Darren Islar: why love story?
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
Woolcinder Oxidor: it was the first free republic of the free world
Darren Islar: love for your own 'grounds'
Woolcinder Oxidor: no i was thinging of way before the earthquake
Woolcinder Oxidor: it started in the 1800's i think
Darren Islar: ah, don't now much about Haiti I'm afraid
Woolcinder Oxidor: they were the first to rid themselves of the fetters of imperialism
Fefonz Quan: back
Darren Islar: may I ask how it make you feel Eliza, driving that girl home?
Darren Islar: having her background in mind
Eliza Madrigal: As Wool said, humbled. She was so sweet and gracious
Eliza Madrigal: and sad for my daughter to lose such a nice new friend, though of course they have facebook and fanfiction to keep them in touch :)
Wol Euler nods.
Darren Islar: hmmm
Wol Euler: fanfiction, eh? interesting
Eliza Madrigal: seems the bonding element :)
Eliza Madrigal: My dd met her when she asked her what she was reading and if it was for pleasure or homework
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: a good question
Fefonz Quan: this 'or' can be inclusive
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: but it was interesting that when the family lost everything.. pictures, books, etc... there was still an element of continuity for her with internet, etc
Wol Euler nods thoughtfully
Fefonz Quan nods, clouds poseesions... mmm
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: possesions*
Fefonz Quan: *s
Eliza Madrigal mile
Eliza Madrigal: s*
Woolcinder Oxidor: yes the story of civilization is an interplay between nature and culture
Woolcinder Oxidor: in the early ages nature dictated culture
Fefonz Quan: (i can
Woolcinder Oxidor: cities used to be ususally besides rivers on trade routes
Fefonz Quan: 't understand what eliza meant by 'mile', maybe i miss some of the lines here?)
Eliza Madrigal smiles @ Fef... was making a little wink really... correcting the typo but at only one end...
Eliza Madrigal: whichever one
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes.. hmm from the wider vantage points turbulence is a healthy part of things it seems
Darren Islar: it gives other perspectives, but sometimes that can be pretty hard
Fefonz Quan: ah, i see Eliza :
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, not exactly comforting when going through turbulence personally to be told 'its healthy in the big picture'... but still :)
Darren Islar: I know what you mean Eliza
Woolcinder Oxidor: probably Heisenberg said on his death bed...after i die i will ask God two things...why rleativity and why turbulence
Darren Islar: :-)
Wol Euler: hello sartre
Darren Islar: somehow we seem to be able to change more easily during turbulances
Woolcinder Oxidor: turbulence is one of the most baffling phenomenon in modern science
Darren Islar: hi Sartre
Fefonz Quan: I thought he would ask:' why you'?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sartre :)
Eliza Madrigal: why not ask before
Woolcinder Oxidor: Hi Sartre
Yakuzza Lethecus: he´s going to kira
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sartre
Darren Islar: :-)
Woolcinder Oxidor: its also called the "butterfly effect"
Darren Islar: hi Christen
Wol Euler: hello christen
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Christen
Wol Euler: have you been here before?
Christen Aabye: hiyas :-)
Christen Aabye: no i havnt
Fefonz Quan: hello christen
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello christen
Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduciton in IM so we don't disturb the others
Christen Aabye says in mermish, "Em."
Christen Aabye: thank Em (EM): You very much :-D
Zen Arado: Hi all
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal wonders if Wol speaks mermish
Woolcinder Oxidor: hello Zen
Eliza Madrigal: but wouldn't be surprised :)
Wol Euler: eh?
Fefonz Quan: hello zen
Woolcinder Oxidor: if a butterfly flaps its wings in tokyo there will be a storm in brazil
Fefonz Quan: we talked about: [13:37] Darren Islar: somehow we seem to be able to change more easily during turbulances
Fefonz Quan: or not :)
Eliza Madrigal: wouldn't be a chaos theory if we could say a=b?
Zen Arado: necessity the mother of invention?
Darren Islar: hi Zen (he said a little late)
Fefonz Quan: ?
Wol Euler: hi zen
Fefonz Quan: (thought zappa was:)
Eliza Madrigal: Darren do you have ideas about why that might be? Maybe it throws everything into question
Fefonz Quan: what did you mean by a=b Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: welll if we could follow the butterfly in a predictable way it doesn't seem that chaotic?
Darren Islar: sorry, being distracted
Fefonz Quan: ah.
Darren Islar: :-)
Wol Euler: predicability and chaos do seem to be contradictory
Fefonz Quan: well, unpredictability is the issue here
Woolcinder Oxidor: but we cannot follow it ...and that makes it unpredictable
Eliza Madrigal: then how do we know the flapping caused the tornado?
Wol Euler chuckles
Darren Islar: I think that world is about changing, but we sometimes try so hard not to
Woolcinder Oxidor: oh we dont...
Fefonz Quan: well it is just a metaphor, i would say
Darren Islar: I guess we need some turbulence to wake us up
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: (what is the sound of one wing flapping?)
Eliza Madrigal: timmmmberrrrr?
Darren Islar: :-)))))
Woolcinder Oxidor: can there be a sound if no one was there to hear it
Darren Islar: if one butterfly can cause aa strom, I should say yes :-)
Eliza Madrigal: yes does it happen if no one notices/validates... guess same chaos question in some ways
Woolcinder Oxidor: its th inner turbulence that changes us more
Woolcinder Oxidor: well metaphysical than chaotic actually
Darren Islar: why not chaotic if it comes to us personal?
Woolcinder Oxidor: chaos is more about sensitive dependency on initial conditions....what ever they maybe
Darren Islar: yes?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, hmm ...
Eliza Madrigal listens
Eliza Madrigal hears 'timmmberrr' ;-)
Darren Islar: I guess it is hard to except chaos if it comes to our experiences
Darren Islar: *own
Woolcinder Oxidor: so weehter if there was a sound or there wasnt....is immaterial to it....since we will never know....either way...it doesnt change the outcome....or it does ...but we can never formulate how
Woolcinder Oxidor: sorry my wifi is pretty chaotic
Zen Arado: another way of saying impermanence, no security, groundlessness?
Darren Islar: right, so to me that is not very interesting
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Zen
Darren Islar: more interesting is what we can see is happening to ourselves
Darren Islar: and how we respond to that
Eliza Madrigal nods, how we respond to something we can't 'use'
Darren Islar: it is interesting to see for ourselves how we act upon no security as Zen pointed out
Eliza Madrigal: hm, strike that statement... thinking of how politicians use disasters, etc
Zen Arado: use disasters Eiza?
Eliza Madrigal: Well, hidden agendas are there... then an event gives someone an angle
Eliza Madrigal: ::cough::: Iraq ::cough:::
Wol Euler: heheheh
Darren Islar: :-)
Fefonz Quan: need handcarchief Eloza? :)
Zen Arado: disasters also show up lack of emergency provision and inability to cope with them I think
Darren Islar is patting Eliza's back
Eliza Madrigal graciously accepts
Zen Arado: shows up political incompetence
Fefonz Quan: the unpredictability takes out our false sense of control, leaving us hang up in the air with no 'reasoning/causality' to lean on
Eliza Madrigal nods nods.. then what :)
Darren Islar: quite right
Zen Arado: well put Fef
Darren Islar: yes, then what.... ?
Woolcinder Oxidor: it never admits a lack of causality...only that the causes may be beyond our comprehension sometimes
Fefonz Quan: then , sometimes, it gives us a glimpse to direct experiencing, by taking out our reference frames for a second
Darren Islar thinking of the Haitian girl who lost everything
Zen Arado: so what was the primary cause?
Zen Arado: agree Fef
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: primary casue for what?
Darren Islar: right fonz
Zen Arado: everything
Yakuzza Lethecus: night everyone
Wol Euler: 'night yaku
Zen Arado: nite Yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Night Ya :)
Woolcinder Oxidor: night yakuzza
Wol Euler: schönen feiertag morgen
Woolcinder Oxidor: a self sufficien reason?
Darren Islar: feiertag?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, hmmm... and yes re both cause and no-cause... somehow. That girl may be a lot more 'alive' in some ways, in her life... appreciative
Wol Euler: christi himmelfahrt
Darren Islar: for the record, bye Yaku
Darren Islar: living in the moment
Darren Islar: not being able to look forward
Zen Arado: best way
Eliza Madrigal: well one hopes that she would have 'both' perspectives now.... moment and also the past/present/future continuity
Eliza Madrigal: simultaneously perhaps... staying connected, in a sense
Eliza Madrigal: At least it seems something one might learn from her :)
Fefonz Quan: I do hope there are easier ways to learn those lessons
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: relating to her might be one way
Fefonz Quan nods
Darren Islar: there are Fonz, but then we need to learn how to go with the flow
Darren Islar: not expecting something
Darren Islar: not knowing what is around the corner
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Darren Islar: good or bad
Darren Islar: earthquake of richness
Fefonz Quan: that's what most people call horror movie...
Wol Euler: how we deal with what happens to us is more important than the events themselves
Darren Islar: *or
Darren Islar: yes
Zen Arado: such high expectations we have of life
Eliza Madrigal: Response
Eliza Madrigal: and there comes in the sensitivity, too?
Wol Euler: studies of happiness show that lottery winners and people who lose a limb in an accident are after 2 years typically just as happy as they were before.
Wol Euler: or unhappy.
Zen Arado: yes
Fefonz Quan: indeed. there goes the hapinnes/external conditions correlation
Eliza Madrigal: I imagine that both events uncover something under the surface... motives, etc
Zen Arado: but how do you measure happiness in the first place?
Wol Euler: I found agreat TED talk on this topic, I'll try to find the url and post it
Darren Islar: if you are able to respond to such an event, I guess so
Darren Islar: and we don't know how we act, until we get there
Zen Arado: happiness is very subjective
Darren Islar: or...... ?
Wol Euler: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/da..._we_happy.html
Zen Arado: I might be miserable and think I am happy
Eliza Madrigal: then you'd be happy zen
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Wol :)
Zen Arado: :)
Fefonz Quan: I've read his 'stumbling on happines'
Wol Euler: he interviews people who say that they are happy & had good lives, and developed 5 rules fromtheir experience for being happy
Darren Islar: :-)
Zen Arado: ty Wol
Wol Euler: 1) make somebody else very rich
Wol Euler: 2) spend as much of your life as possible in prison
Fefonz Quan: many interesting points, yet i thought he missed the big one t the end
Wol Euler: 3) hmmm, canÄt remember :)
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: There is this little snippet that went around called "Everything is great and nobody is happy"... basically that a feeling of entitlement makes people unhappy
Wol Euler: oh yes, that definitely
Darren Islar: the first two are already tough ones :-)
Wol Euler: well, watch it and see his examples :)
Eliza Madrigal: one line was 'how quickly you think the world owes you something you didn't know existed five seconds ago"
Woolcinder Oxidor: and how do you get to prison
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: hehe Wool... maybe that's a theme session topic
Woolcinder Oxidor: i recal my time in boarding...it was like a prison...i was very happy indeed
Fefonz Quan: you can make someone rich by robbing a bank and giving the money to someone else, then you get 2 birds in one shot ?)
Wol Euler: yes!
Wol Euler: hehehehe
Eliza Madrigal: Fef as Robin Hood
Darren Islar: so let's rob a bank then :-)
Fefonz Quan: ok, and i can volenteer to take the money Darren
Darren Islar: the PaB-gang :-)
Eliza Madrigal snaps and struts
Darren Islar: okay, then I'll be hapy and you not :-)
Zen Arado: not so sure about the prison bit
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes not really dressed for it Zen
Wol Euler chuckles. It may have been tongue-in-cheek.
Zen Arado: :)
Calvino Rabeni: @wool, do you mean, the "freedom from choice" in the boarding, allowed for a happiness?
Calvino Rabeni: I was trying to understand that last remark
Woolcinder Oxidor: probably...and when you know you had no choice...or very little...you wouldnt bother much about it
Zen Arado: so much for freedom
Woolcinder Oxidor: concentrate more on what you have
Eliza Madrigal romanticized boarding schools as a kid as many American children probably
Zen Arado: 'forced to be free' as Sartre said
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Darren Islar: which Sartre?
Woolcinder Oxidor: but looking back i rue for the time i lost that could have been spent chasing girls
Darren Islar: (joking)
Zen Arado: oh think it was Rousseau not Sartre
Eliza Madrigal: hehe Wool, but I'm sure you aquired skills for just such future endeavors ... manners, etc
Wol Euler: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, Eliza :)
Woolcinder Oxidor: yes i have often thought of it this way
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef, nice to see you
Zen Arado: manners?
Fefonz Quan: I'll say good night, friends!
Wol Euler: bye fef, take care
Woolcinder Oxidor: bye Fef
Zen Arado: have to try that :)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Darren Islar: bye Fonz
Fefonz Quan: nice seeing u too eliza!
Zen Arado: bhe Fef
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_ bye all!
Eliza Madrigal waves
Eliza Madrigal: They are the least acknowledged, best thing ever
Zen Arado: agrees
Woolcinder Oxidor: you do acquire a sense of sadness
Eliza Madrigal: sadness?
Zen Arado: no use dwelling on the past
Darren Islar: I will be going too
Darren Islar: see you guys and girls
Woolcinder Oxidor: but the past always dwells with you in the present
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Darren :)) See you soon
Wol Euler: 'night darren, take care
Woolcinder Oxidor: night Darren
Zen Arado: night Darren
Calvino Rabeni: @wool, that's valid too
Eliza Madrigal nods... yes a tricky line
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, ye departing ones :)
Eliza Madrigal: if you 'don't' look at the past, then its the same as looking too much?
Eliza Madrigal: gives it a kind of charge?
Zen Arado: you can't change it
Woolcinder Oxidor: overlooking you mean?
Eliza Madrigal: maybe, not sure really
Eliza Madrigal: not repressing but not dwelling ... seems the thing
Woolcinder Oxidor: there are certain quantum mechanical concepts in which you influence the past
Calvino Rabeni: what you say makes sense to me Eliza
Zen Arado: oh?
Zen Arado: didn't know that
Zen Arado: the person we were in the past is not the same person we are now
Calvino Rabeni: We live in the middle world - the human one - the facts of quantum mechanics for practical purposes are a distant rumor, or maybe, a kind of inspirational analogy
Eliza Madrigal: well, think of the 'timeless' perspective though... same really in some ways as the girl from Haiti having perhaps, two vantage points...
Zen Arado: we wouldn't make the same choices if we had to again
Wol Euler: well ...
Calvino Rabeni: Because circumstances would be different
Calvino Rabeni: So that would be appropriate :)
Eliza Madrigal: there is where we are with its past/present/future structure... but then there is a perspective of all those things 'encompassed' in a sense?
Calvino Rabeni: There are certain types of choices though, we make over and over and over and over
Calvino Rabeni: kind of like the movie "groundhogs day"
Eliza Madrigal: great movie
Calvino Rabeni: In an analogy with reincarnation
Calvino Rabeni: each time a little different, - basically depending on a transformation of the self and motivation
Zen Arado: if we are stuck in a behaviour pattern?
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps someday to get it "right", and then be released from the cycle
Calvino Rabeni: It was a great parable of a movie
Wol Euler: that sounds vaguely familiar :)
Calvino Rabeni: But these choices are real in everyday life
Eliza Madrigal: in the 'timeless' frame, then past/present/future are there... but open?
Calvino Rabeni: Seems like that perhaps ?
Eliza Madrigal: so of course then there wouldn't be a separation in the way we think there is
Eliza Madrigal: not that its not way over my head... need to re read the milk discussions
Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
Wol Euler: eh?
Eliza Madrigal: the timeless time discussions you had with Pema Wol :)
Wol Euler: ah :)
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Wol Euler: I'd like to revisit those, I think I understand what he meant much better now
Woolcinder Oxidor: there is a language...i dont recall which now..in which the past is referre as future and the future as the past
Zen Arado: past time doesn't exist
Wol Euler speaks into the camera: Pema, shall we have a rematch?
Zen Arado: only our memories
Eliza Madrigal smiles and hopes
Eliza Madrigal: but it does seem that qm keeps validating these 'ideas' found in ancient texts, etc
Woolcinder Oxidor: those people refer to the past as whats ahead of us...rhate than what is behind us
Eliza Madrigal: or at least leaving open more possibiities
Woolcinder Oxidor: *rather
Wol Euler: walking backwards, a nice image
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
--BELL--
Zen Arado: for Christmas?
Wol Euler: ha!
Wol Euler: a goonie.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that is interesting Wool, some people / cultures have their metahpors reversed about time
Zen Arado: across the Irish sea :)
Zen Arado: wouldn't walk anywhere for Christmas
Calvino Rabeni: The question is, what does it change about how they experience their lives, that past is ahead and future behind
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goon_Show
Eliza Madrigal makes note: Rent Goonies
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, wrong thing
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes good question Cal
Eliza Madrigal: (just sent email to pema with chat snippet) heheh
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Calvino Rabeni: It's a question from embodied linguistics
Zen Arado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZhS0tNZSEo
Zen Arado: song
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, must upgrade adobe first
Zen Arado: it's very silly
Wol Euler smiles happily
Zen Arado: :)
Woolcinder Oxidor: yes starts like bugs bunny
Zen Arado: Ying Tong niddle I po much better :)
Eliza Madrigal: And before that, I'd better go... dinner to puzzle out. A great conversation though... Thanks everyone :) Will check the links later
Wol Euler: bye eliza, cook well
Woolcinder Oxidor: bye Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks
Zen Arado: bye Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :::waves happily:::
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni will go too - the future is creeping up behind me pretty fast :)
Wol Euler: "sorrowing-ing" heheheheh
Woolcinder Oxidor: i must go as well people
Wol Euler: bye cal, bye wool
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks all, be well :)
Zen Arado: bye Cal
Woolcinder Oxidor: bye Everyone...splendid conversations
Zen Arado: bye all
Wol Euler: bye zen, sleep well
Wol Euler: bye recorder