2010.05.30 13:00 - Silence; Enlightenment

The Guardian for this meeting was Liza Deischer. The comments are by Liza Deischer.

The session starts of with being silent, after that silence itself becoming the first topic. Learning and Enlightenment being the second topic we addressed this session, starting with the question if Enlightenment is the end of learning

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Liza
Liza Deischer: hi Agatha

    --BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: just saying hello until i move on to another event
Liza Deischer: okay :-)
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Liza Deischer: is that why you're not going to sit down ?
Agatha Macbeth: Are you Alfred in disguise?
Yakuzza Lethecus: thats because i don´t rezz
Liza Deischer: who is?
Agatha Macbeth: Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: alfred kelberry
Agatha Macbeth: Mr Standup
Liza Deischer: well, he can't hide his nametag :-)
Liza Deischer: :-)

    --BELL--

Yakuzza Lethecus: was bedeutet dein tag aga ?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, something Japanese
Agatha Macbeth: Yin-yang I think
Liza Deischer: you mean, that's why it is so quiet here
Agatha Macbeth: Could be
Liza Deischer: geen I tjing vandaag (who is going to understand that Liza?)
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ara
Liza Deischer: hi Ara
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Ara :)

Having sit for quite some time quietly next to each other, silence seem to be a good topic to start with

Liza Deischer: how do you feel about silence Ara?
Liza Deischer: we seem to do an extended practice in it today :-)

Yakuzza Lethecus: i am going over to a science event now
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care everyone
arabella Ella: bye Yaku
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Yaku
Liza Deischer: bye Yaku, have fun :-)

arabella Ella: i personally have an ambivilent attitude to silence
arabella Ella: mainly as i come from a noisy part of the world :)
arabella Ella: but i need silence when i need to focus or think
Liza Deischer: then being silent is tough?
Liza Deischer: yes me too
arabella Ella: depends
arabella Ella: i need my thinking time and that has to be done in silence
Liza Deischer: on a daily bases you mean
arabella Ella: if not every day, often enough
arabella Ella: and often while driving for example

    --BELL--

Liza Deischer: something like letting the day glide through your hands
Liza Deischer: fingers

Agatha Macbeth: Think I'll leave you two to it then. bye for now
arabella Ella: bye Ags
Liza Deischer: bye Agatha

arabella Ella: what about yourself and silence Liza?
Liza Deischer: I like silence
Liza Deischer: and I need it every day
Liza Deischer: or at least to be alone for several hours
arabella Ella: yes i know what you mean
Liza Deischer: but as everything it also can get in the way
arabella Ella: in what sense can it get in the way?
Liza Deischer: when I'm restless for instance
Liza Deischer: or as yesterday, when we started of silent as today, then the group started growing
arabella Ella: ah i see ... although I was not here yesterday as i was out
Liza Deischer: it is almost like you feel the business in the heads of others
Liza Deischer: i mean busy-ness
Liza Deischer: but maybe that is only an assumption
arabella Ella: yes i think i can understand
arabella Ella: when there are many different threads of chat
Liza Deischer: I mean when everybody is silent
arabella Ella: when chat comes through so fast it is at times difficult to keep up with it
Liza Deischer: different threads make me restless anyway :-))
arabella Ella: oh you feel the busy-ness in the silence?
Liza Deischer: it feels that way
arabella Ella: mmmmmmmm
arabella Ella: i dont think i every felt that
arabella Ella: do you mean the feeling you may get that they are all IM-ing with others but not chatting here?
Liza Deischer: no
Liza Deischer: I never have that feeling, so some are
Liza Deischer: some are intensely looking in there invent :-)
arabella Ella: yes maybe
Liza Deischer: but everybody brings along his or her own 'things'
arabella Ella: i sometimes get the feeling that others are either in IM or using other programs on their PC while leaving their avi 'parked' here
Liza Deischer: it happens
arabella Ella: but part of the beauty of SL is the freedom it allows each of us to do as we please with hardly any pressures
Liza Deischer: well, it is not bothering me
arabella Ella: it does not bother me either
Liza Deischer: except when I talk to someone and they don't talk back :-)
Liza Deischer: not realizing they could be in IM
Liza Deischer: :-)
arabella Ella: or maybe afk
arabella Ella: (away from keyboard)
Liza Deischer: yes, I know :-)
Liza Deischer: I don't think that happens much
arabella Ella: i have seen it happen on other sims ... not so much here
arabella Ella: but this is simply an observation and not to be taken as critical in any way at all
Liza Deischer: i came to this bar
Liza Deischer: packed with people
arabella Ella: yes
Liza Deischer: complete silence
Liza Deischer: only talking through IM
Liza Deischer: very strange
arabella Ella: yes very strange i agree
Liza Deischer: THEN I don't feel comfortable
arabella Ella: yes ... unless you too would be in IM with 3 or 4 other people?
Liza Deischer: well, you know in bars, people are always in IM
Liza Deischer: but only in IM?
Liza Deischer: not even 'hi'

    --BELL--

arabella Ella: yes ... makes one feel not too welcome as then you get the feeling that they do not welcome new ppl
Liza Deischer: right

Bertram Jacobus: heyy - small "group" ! :-)
arabella Ella: Hiya Bert!
Liza Deischer: hi Bert :-)
arabella Ella: how are you tonight?

Bertram Jacobus: didn´t want to disturb your talk plz
Liza Deischer: here people are in IM too, but also talking, so thats different
Liza Deischer: don't worry :-)
arabella Ella: yes it is different here generally speaking
arabella Ella: we are discussing silence Bert and how welcoming or not other groups may be on SL
arabella Ella: how silence can be welcoming or weird

With the arrival of Betram we start talking about looks and 'growing up' in sl, finally exploring what 'being green' means in different languages

Bertram Jacobus: and sry but whaow - you look nice liza - what did you do ? ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: ah i see ...
Liza Deischer: new skin
Liza Deischer: and thanks :-)
arabella Ella takes a closer look at Liza ... :)
Bertram Jacobus: new skin new clothes new hair ? ;-)
Liza Deischer: no, just new skin
arabella Ella: cool
Bertram Jacobus: okay - looks really great
arabella Ella: yes it does
Liza Deischer: thanks
Liza Deischer: I feel more serious now :-)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe - more serious ? what was the feeling before ? ;-)
arabella Ella: he he .... why 'more serious'?
Liza Deischer: I look so serious, almost like I grew-up :-)
Bertram Jacobus: as a 212 days old sl avatar you mean ? ;-)
arabella Ella: he he
Liza Deischer: alsof ik groentje af ben hier
Liza Deischer: yep :-)
Bertram Jacobus: good - so i understand (!) ... :-)
Liza Deischer: sorry, that was Dutch
arabella Ella: am trying to decipher it ... he he
Liza Deischer: I said, like I'm not a child here anymore
Liza Deischer: well it is an expression, so hard to decipher I'm afraid
Bertram Jacobus: ma gf here, fay, also is dutch , so ... :-)
arabella Ella: ah
Liza Deischer: okay
Bertram Jacobus: so ... how can be silence ... in sl , in groups or communication here ?
Liza Deischer: green behind the ears, is that an english expression?
Bertram Jacobus: ah - in german we say that too !
Bertram Jacobus: "noch grün hinter den ohren" :o)
arabella Ella: i am not sure ... sometimes if you are 'green' at doing something you are new at it
Liza Deischer: wel it is slightly different, but that comes most near
Liza Deischer: litterally it means: not being green anymore
arabella Ella: or english also has 'green with envy'
arabella Ella: ah ok i see
Liza Deischer: or not being a little green one anymore
arabella Ella: yes
Bertram Jacobus: no greenhorn anymore
Liza Deischer: is that the english expression?
Bertram Jacobus: i would say so - ara ? ;-)
arabella Ella: i dont think so but i am not sure as there are some expressions which may be new to me
Liza Deischer: green with envy, we have something like that in Dutch two
Bertram Jacobus: languages ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: and in german ... "grün vor neid" - same
arabella Ella nods
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: groen zien van jaloezie

Ara is bringing us back to the topic of today: silence

arabella Ella: and back to silence ... how do you feel about silence here on SL Bert or in your everyday life?
Bertram Jacobus: so ... what did you find out about the silence in sl ? ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: ah !
Bertram Jacobus: first : i appreciate it - very much !
arabella Ella nods
Bertram Jacobus: second : if too much - i have to see, how to handle / manage that . but that happens very seldom ... hm
Liza Deischer: we start to talk about it because we had quite a bit of silence today in the group
Liza Deischer: well, group being a big word
Bertram Jacobus: what i don´t like on the net i admit - is, when people are very unaware or too distracted - it´s simply not my style of communicating ...
arabella Ella: two others were here with Liza before I arrived
Bertram Jacobus: ah okay - new people or ones we all know ? :-)
arabella Ella: and yes when people do not respond i get the feeling they may be distracted altho it is difficult to tell what really is the case
arabella Ella: people we know
arabella Ella: Aga and Yaku
Liza Deischer: well in rl you know when somebody is distracted
Liza Deischer: here you never can tell
Liza Deischer: that is more the problem to me then the distraction of people themselves
Bertram Jacobus: yes. but ... with some time you also here can get to know (right expression?) people ...

    --BELL--

arabella Ella: could it not teach you to be more flexible with judgement or assumptions Liza?
Liza Deischer: because I always try to give my full attention at somehow I think others do that too
Liza Deischer: oh that is not the problem, I just don't realize it
Liza Deischer: that people do that is in itself okay with me

a short intermezzo about breaking the silence of the bell :)

Bertram Jacobus: (sshh?) ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: i see ...
Liza Deischer: but because I don't realize it, I don anticipate on it
Liza Deischer: sorry Bert
Bertram Jacobus: sry for me having said that ...
Liza Deischer: no, I shouldn't have been talking
arabella Ella: i'm sorry i broke the silence first :(

back to the topic again, which changed to people who don't respond in sl, being in IM, or having a look in their invent. Sometimes forgetting about it and learning slowly how communication works in sl and why people sometimes don't respond, getting to the topic of learning

Liza Deischer: and the strange thing is, I don't seem to get that :-))
Bertram Jacobus: some of us ... like the silence as we can notice ... i´m happy about that (!) ;-)
Liza Deischer: me too
arabella Ella: yes
Bertram Jacobus: i also had to learn, that not all people are like me ... and
Bertram Jacobus: again and again have to realize that in certain aspects (!) ...
Liza Deischer: yes, I realize that, but don't realize it all the time so to speak :-)
arabella Ella: yes it is a difficult lesson to learn and i must admit i too am guilty of relapsing into forgetting the lesson
Bertram Jacobus: i think, that is quite normal
Liza Deischer: yes, I think so too Bert
Bertram Jacobus: but even with the spiritual path ... the teachings say
Liza Deischer: and Ara
Bertram Jacobus: it would go that way : first one experiences a bit, then a bit more and then step by step ...
Liza Deischer: I think that if I stay here a bit longer I will finally get it yes :-)
Bertram Jacobus: more and more - so - that may be simply a nearly so to say law of nature how developing goes
Liza Deischer: that is true
arabella Ella: yes but i think we also need to understand and accept the issue of the 'journey' never ending ... there is always more to learn
Liza Deischer: there is even a well known curve about that phenomenon
arabella Ella: (and not academically i mean but in life in general)
Liza Deischer: sure
Bertram Jacobus: yes : this group is also very helpful to me - and can support many aspects i think ... what we need, what we are searching for - a group for seekers (?) (at lest also) :o)
arabella Ella: nice way of putting it Bert :)

Is there an end to learning, like as in enlightenment?

Bertram Jacobus: and / "but" ara : i think, it may be possible, that one so to say stage of learning may have an end - the way to enlightenment. what not incudes the infinity of relative things ;-)
Liza Deischer: I'm not sure Bert
Bertram Jacobus: about what not especially plz liza ?
Liza Deischer: if enlightenment is the same thing as the end of the road
Bertram Jacobus: ah. my impression is : in a way yes and in another no
Liza Deischer: that learning may have an end
arabella Ella: i have my doubts there too Bert
arabella Ella: i dont think we ever accept that we have reached the end of the road
arabella Ella: we desire to do so ... but how can we do so? I don't know
Bertram Jacobus: i hope at least that perfection and complete fullfilment is possible. but that does not deny the possibility to go on with living and learning with the relative aspects
Liza Deischer: I don't know either, but there are people who reached enlightenment or even have become a Buddha
Liza Deischer: I understand what you mean Bert, and maybe you are right, really don't know
Bertram Jacobus: when that is true - my impressions of exactly that and other fulfillments are like written ... hm
Liza Deischer: sorry, can you explain that a bit more?
arabella Ella listens ...
Bertram Jacobus: what else should these descriptions mean ? don´t they tell, it would be some fulfillment - reaching a goal and such ?

    --BELL--

Liza Deischer: it is reaching something, but I don't know if it is fulfillment
Bertram Jacobus: i have also in mind about "that" :
Bertram Jacobus: we can talk a lot about it and we can try to practice ...
Liza Deischer: like the number zero doesn't exist, so might fulfillment not exist
arabella Ella: yes i think we reach a number of sub-goals but if there is perfection or fulfillment it would only be available to very few great 'beings'
Bertram Jacobus: for me for example, the idea of "playing enlightened" helps very much and is really nice and enjoyable at the moment / these days (!) ... ;-)
Liza Deischer: yes, let's see what comes up on the horizon
Bertram Jacobus: but i think always : we shouldn´t push "that" so far away (!)
Liza Deischer: true, but we mostly think in absolutes
Liza Deischer: not in glimpses
Liza Deischer: not in every day life
arabella Ella: yes of course ... we could always work towards it and not eliminate it as you say Bert
arabella Ella: to be human is to hope and to desire and to strive for better things
Bertram Jacobus: and if we can accept, that may be some relativity transcending "exists", some "absolute" and such ... then this fulfillment should be possible - no ?
Liza Deischer: no
Bertram Jacobus: lol. no ?! whaow - i would say "yes" :o)
Liza Deischer: I mean, hard to explain
arabella Ella: it sounds very Platonic to me to talk about absolutes Bert
Liza Deischer: striving to become better is something different then believing in fulfillment
arabella Ella: very idealistic
arabella Ella: and of course nothing wrong with being idealistic
Liza Deischer: playing 'enlightenment' can in that respect even be dangerous
arabella Ella: (even though my reply would also be 'no' or ' i don't think so')
Bertram Jacobus: in which way dangerous ?
Liza Deischer: because maybe you seek for the wrong answer
Bertram Jacobus: ah. but then asking could be finished
Liza Deischer: so I like to take it step by step instead of making assumptions about it
Liza Deischer: I have a concept
Liza Deischer: or not even that actually, some ideas you can say
Bertram Jacobus: but may be the concepts once end

Liza Deischer: hi Wol
Bertram Jacobus: and hey wol ! :-)
arabella Ella: Hiya Wol!
Wol Euler: hello bert, liza, ara

Liza Deischer: maybe, but that is the thing
Liza Deischer: we don't know
Liza Deischer: at least I don't :_)
arabella Ella: :)
Bertram Jacobus: but it may be no "object of knowing"
Bertram Jacobus: but one of experience
Liza Deischer: sure, so?
Liza Deischer: does that make any difference?

arabella Ella: Ciao Qt!
Qt Core: (late) hi all
Liza Deischer: hi QT
Wol Euler: hello qt
Bertram Jacobus: hey qt ! :-)

Bertram Jacobus: we may have some already - as you said (?) at least glimpses and such ?
Liza Deischer: true, but that's it
Liza Deischer: it is there all along, sure
Liza Deischer: but even Pema, who likes to throw around with big words
Bertram Jacobus: sure !? so you know !? ;-)
Liza Deischer: becomes very thoughtfull if it comes to enlightened seeing
Liza Deischer: no, that is the point
Bertram Jacobus: i try to strengthen always all which can help to experience that

arabella Ella: interesting chat but I'm afraid i must go now ... goodnight all!
Wol Euler: bye ara
Bertram Jacobus: goodnite ara
Liza Deischer: nite Ara
Qt Core: 'night Ara

Bertram Jacobus: and to fight all which hinders
Liza Deischer: sorry Bert, I don't want to get in the way, so to speak
Liza Deischer: but it sounds a bit dangerous to me
Bertram Jacobus: np - because ... especially here at pab i appreciate that we take our different ways ...

Bertram Jacobus: hey cal
Liza Deischer: hey Cl
Qt Core: hi Calvino
Liza Deischer: Cal
Wol Euler: hello calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Hello bert, everyone

Liza Deischer: maybe next time we should start at eleven :-)
Qt Core: ;-)
Qt Core: maybe we are in double dst ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe - when did i arrive ? half an hour before ? ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: shift change ? ;o)
Liza Deischer: yes, something like that :-)

    --BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: that´s another point : i´m simply happy to meet here mostly people, four times a day - with some similar interests, not only surface, variations of beings ... all very nice ...
Bertram Jacobus: oops
Bertram Jacobus: and related to "danger" one more time ... isn´t there a sentence : "no risk, no fun" liza ?
Bertram Jacobus: and some even say : without going through death (!) you won´t reach it (!) ...
Liza Deischer: all true, but please be careful
Bertram Jacobus: sry - may be i´m too heavy - try to calm it down now. okai . ty
Wol Euler: :)
Bertram Jacobus: ty again ;-)
Liza Deischer: okay :-)

Here we closed the discussion on enlightenment that kept me busy later on for quite a while. 'Playing enlightened' is in my view an exercise not to be taken lightly. It is possible you loose sight of what you are doing and making wrong assumptions about what enlightenment is, in that way feeding your ego instead of dissolving it. So I have some feelings of concern about those exercises.

In Mahayana Buddhism enlightenment isn't the same as being a Buddha and enlightenment itself is described as different stages.It needs a lot of openness, in Buddhism supported by the 'concept' of 'Emptiness' (in the end excluding the concept itself) and to my opinion even the back-up of a good teacher. In Buddhism the teacher actually being the one that can introduce you to this 'concept'.

Liza Deischer: I need to go, try to find some sleep
Liza Deischer: bye all :-)
Bertram Jacobus: wish ya a nice nite liza !
Wol Euler: bye liza, thank you for covering for me
Wol Euler: sleep well
Calvino Rabeni: Liza if you find any extra, send me some :)
Qt Core: maybe under the bed ;-)
Liza Deischer: :-))
Qt Core: bye Liza

Bertram Jacobus: wol - you just come from a sl business meeting ? your clothes ... :-)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Wol Euler: looks less businesslike when standing up
Bertram Jacobus: okayy ...
Bertram Jacobus: closer look ...
Bertram Jacobus: worth ...
Bertram Jacobus: :o)
Bertram Jacobus: did it before writing, luckily ;-)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Bertram Jacobus: ah - cal is also producing those little hearts ... :-)
Calvino Rabeni: "Also"?
Qt Core: i think i
Bertram Jacobus: yes. fael has it, right and he gave me once, but i don´t find it anymore at the moment ... *gr*lol* :-/
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe I have a slow leak
Qt Core: i've seen others producing them here
Wol Euler: :)
Bertram Jacobus giggles
Bertram Jacobus: just found it - ty cal ! ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: but also have this one (!) :-)

Wol introducing a new topic about the relation between implants and suicide

Wol Euler: Fascinating fact of the day: "An unrelated 2006 study of 25,000 Canadian women who had breast implants between 1974 and 1989 found that their suicide rate was 73 percent higher than that of the general population"
Bertram Jacobus: lol ty wol :o)

Wow, didn't know that, quite a number, would like to see that study

    --BELL--

Qt Core: well people that stress enough on their aspect to get an implant may be psycologically weaker i suppose
Wol Euler nods
Calvino Rabeni: Unrelated to what, was that study?
Bertram Jacobus: shall we believe that ? i mean the numbers : 25.000 ? 73 % ?
Wol Euler: nono
Wol Euler: not 73 percent of them
Bertram Jacobus: no no
Bertram Jacobus: 73 % more then normal
Wol Euler: they were 73 percent more likely than others
Wol Euler: yes
Bertram Jacobus: yes. but still a huge number
Calvino Rabeni: Sorry for those canadian women.
Wol Euler: absolutely.
Wol Euler: quite shocking and saddening
Calvino Rabeni: This wouldn't happen with, italians I guess
Bertram Jacobus: and also 25.000 are not really few - for a study (?)
Qt Core: i think that the nose is still the preferred cutting area of italian women
Calvino Rabeni: Is it a "north country" thing?
Qt Core: but haven't checked
Bertram Jacobus: michael jacksons nose was special
Wol Euler: speaking of sad cases
Qt Core: had he one ?
Bertram Jacobus: you´re right wol ...
Qt Core: the only operation i saw several women i know having was laser eyesight correction

Bertram Jacobus: sry but i think, i should have some sleep now, too ...
Wol Euler: goodnight bert, take care
Qt Core: 'night bert
Bertram Jacobus: ty very much - all be happy (!) :o)

Calvino Rabeni: Statistics are such a tease - 73% of them are just made up
Wol Euler: I heard it was 87%
Qt Core: and the other 73% are just plain wrong
Calvino Rabeni: There are various government agencies working on the problem "'as we speak"

Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I too must go, I'm falling asleep at the keyboard.
Wol Euler: goodnight, take care
Qt Core: 'night wol, sleep well
Calvino Rabeni: I must admit, a nap sounds like an excellent idea
Qt Core: (but in the end, with big enough dataset i think stats are useful and mostly right, if well done)
Qt Core: to me too, have to see if the others around here agree)
Calvino Rabeni: It could be interesting to work in a world of huge datasets
Calvino Rabeni: The future becomes in that direction
Qt Core: apply to google then ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: If the others around you agree, it will be nearly unanimous ;)
Qt Core: big if ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: So enjoy, QT - best of luck with it :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye then

    --BELL--

Qt Core: bye :-)