2010.07.18 19:00 - Multicausal

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni. 

Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Mitzi, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Good evening, Mitzi, Calvino.
Bruce Mowbray: Lightnigh just struck within a mile of where I am...
Bruce Mowbray: Will probably get knowed off-line soon...
Bruce Mowbray: knocked.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Bruce, nice to meet you. Evening Calvino.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Mitzi.
Bruce Mowbray: Good evening, Paradise.
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Paradise :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hay Paradise!
Paradise Tennant: hiya bruce .. mitzi .. cal :) evening all :))
Calvino Rabeni: And Pila too !
Paradise Tennant: hey pila gtsy !
Bruce Mowbray: Good evening, Pila.
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Mitzi Mimistrobell: A dynamic group indeed. Nice to meet again, Pila
Pila Mulligan: I've been making bread at home the past few days
Pila Mulligan: one of the nice parts I forgot since last time is the lngering fragrance
Mitzi Mimistrobell: when will we get fragrance into SL?
Pila Mulligan: whenevers .. I hope its not by Microsfot :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles .. yes I put the bread machine on a timer and the coffee machine on a timer .. nice to lie in bed and smell both :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bruce Mowbray: appreciated those links to Mother Earth bread recipies, Pila.
Paradise Tennant: what kind of bread have you been making pila :)
Pila Mulligan: they seem to have just taken the usual bread idea and modernized a few aspects, Bruce
Pila Mulligan: well, the artilce Burce mentioned got me started, and it makes a basi white French boule recipe that can be refrigerated for a week
Pila Mulligan: I've made a bould loaf, a pizza crust and now trying a whole wheat loaf
Pila Mulligan: boule*
Pila Mulligan: the pizza was yummy
Pila Mulligan: but the smell is a kind of foreplay
Pila Mulligan: sets the satge nicely
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Pila Mulligan: stage*
Bruce Mowbray is having crusty thoughts.
Calvino Rabeni: Bruce, your av looks dipped in battleship gray paint except for the head - or is it "subjective" to my viewer?
Pila Mulligan: same here
Bruce Mowbray: It probably has something to do with the thundeerstorm we're having now - - although to me I look just fine.
Paradise Tennant: and here
Calvino Rabeni: It looked that way at 1PM today also
Bruce Mowbray: Yup -- it's gottta be my satellite connection. . . hanging by a thread here.
Paradise Tennant: hmm might want to try a rebake :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: yes -- others have told me that before.
Calvino Rabeni: How does one bake an avatar?
Pila Mulligan: ctr-w?
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- How do I do a rebake -- in the Advanced tab?
Pila Mulligan: some thing like that
Calvino Rabeni: Ctl-Alt-R
Bruce Mowbray: OK - CTRL:-W. Here goes.
Paradise Tennant: ctrl alt R
Bruce Mowbray: I've been hitting CTRL-ALT-R ever since I arrived here.
Bruce Mowbray: still no pizza?
Paradise Tennant: hmm maybe go through the advanced tab character rebake textures
Pila Mulligan: not it it seems, something else
Bruce Mowbray: guess I'll be a battleship tonight.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Yesterday I was joking that Ctl-Alt-Shit-4 was good when one felt antisocial
Pila Mulligan: what does it do Cal
Paradise Tennant: lol and that works how ?
Pila Mulligan: ?
Calvino Rabeni: Try it :)
Pila Mulligan: oh, shit .. miseed it
Bruce Mowbray: I was feeling a bit anti=social myself tonight, but Blub dragged me out.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm glad I came. . . just wishing I were not a battleship about to get struck by lightning.
Calvino Rabeni: OK, can't do much about the lightning
Calvino Rabeni: what do you want me to imagine your av is wearing?
Pila Mulligan: are you in southwest Ohio Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: He's got on his blue peace dove t-shirt with a madras jacket. . and blue jeans.
Bruce Mowbray: south central Ohio.
Bruce Mowbray: 45 miles south of Columbus.
Bruce Mowbray: Know the neighborhood?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bruce you are gray to me as well. Nice to have the head at least!
--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I am trying to get a head.
Pila Mulligan: looking at the weather map
Bruce Mowbray nods that he is looking at a weather map - radar.
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.wunderground.com/radar/radblast.asp?...
Pila Mulligan: it looks failry intense there
Pila Mulligan: fairly*
Bruce Mowbray: yupperdoo.
Bruce Mowbray: but I'm doing extra credit work with water Dakini this week, so that's fine.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: it seems to have passed you a bit
Pila Mulligan: moving east
Bruce Mowbray: went right north of us -- That's the reason I'm still on-line.
Pila Mulligan: I grew up furrther south west of there -- near Lousiville
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes. I love Kentucky.
Bruce Mowbray: Do you know Bardstown?
Pila Mulligan: it has its high points
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: Bardstown is nice
Bruce Mowbray: Thos. Merton's stomping ground.
Pila Mulligan: Gesthemene
Bruce Mowbray: also Stevie Foster. . .
Bruce Mowbray: My Old Kentucky Home...
Bruce Mowbray: been to the monastery, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: http://www.monks.org/ just past it -- always wanted to go for a rerteat there
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I've been there three times on retreats. We probably know some of the same monks.
Pila Mulligan: and tons of distilleries nearby
Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- sorry.
Bruce Mowbray: didn't read you accurately.
Pila Mulligan: did you go for solo retreats or organized events?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, lots of them near there.
Bruce Mowbray: Always solo.
Pila Mulligan: yes, I'd like that too
Pila Mulligan: http://www.monks.org/retreats.html
Bruce Mowbray: Used to go before they built the new guesthouse with Ethel Kennedy's $2 million.
Bruce Mowbray: stayed in the old monk's quarters.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bruce Mowbray: back in mid-80's
Pila Mulligan: I have not been in the Mainland US since then, but if I came back I'd like to include a week there for a retreat
Bruce Mowbray: It's especially nice to go there between Christmas and New Years, if you can.
Susi Alcott: /\
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Susi!
Pila Mulligan: hi Susi
Paradise Tennant: hiya susi
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: Welcome Susi
Susi Alcott: sry; forgot to change log in to home
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: your up quite late or early :)
Susi Alcott: early this time
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you again
Susi Alcott: nice to see you also for long time _/!\_
Susi Alcott: good morning Paradise, Bruce, Mitzi and Calvino
Susi Alcott: too
Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Susi.
Susi Alcott: pls dont let me to interrupt
Pila Mulligan: ok
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Susi, good to meet you.
Pila Mulligan: http://www.monks.org/retreats.html Bruce and I were sharing ideas about a retreat place
Susi Alcott: shall look
Pila Mulligan: an American monastic named Thomas Merton lived there
Bruce Mowbray: . . . but Bruce is happy for you to change the subject, if anyone wishes.
Pila Mulligan: he was a respected religious scholar as well
Paradise Tennant: smiles what is monocausalitis :) cal
Bruce Mowbray: Have you heard of Thomas Merton, Susi?
Susi Alcott: oh heavens; that's very special place
Susi Alcott: no I have not, but that photo tells about that place truly much to me
Pila Mulligan: yep :)
Pila Mulligan: peaceful
Susi Alcott: so very true
Susi Alcott: so very true
Susi Alcott: just that even I truly can be said to be in buddhism, that dont close out my knowledge of Jesus
Susi Alcott: so the name on the headline made me to shiver
Pila Mulligan: yese, this is a place of Trappist monks (Catholic)
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Merton "Merton was a keen proponent of interfaith understanding. He pioneered dialogue with prominent Asian spiritual figures, including the Dalai Lama, D.T. Suzuki, the Japanese writer on the Zen tradition, and the Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh."
Susi Alcott: thankfully the more knowledge shall only 'join' different religions to be more history...which sure makes that 'today' shall also change better
Pila Mulligan: yes
Susi Alcott: ah; so now I've heared of him too _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: @para - monocausalitis is the idea that things are unrelated enough so that events have only one main cause -
Calvino Rabeni: it leads to "either/or" thinking
Susi Alcott: oh...
Bruce Mowbray: Really? I was thinking it had to do with Big Bang inflammation.
Calvino Rabeni: Writ large, perhaps
Susi Alcott: hm...rises one story...but...well..it's not so short...
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: hmmm
Pila Mulligan: please proceed :)
Paradise Tennant: one cause is so nice and simple .. direct .. :)
Bruce Mowbray wonders: How does he DO that?!
Susi Alcott: well...
Susi Alcott: as there's this lady who's been often 'my eyes and ears' to 'beyond'...
Susi Alcott: as she once asked me to look at this certain energy; she didn't tell what she knew about that
Susi Alcott: so I looked at it, and pondered what that might be...
Susi Alcott: hm...hard to explane clearly, but ..as my way is much just to let things to rise to my human mind...
Pila Mulligan: :)
Susi Alcott: so I saw this to be at first very light; very bright
Susi Alcott: almost the most white I know, but yet not
Susi Alcott: also that it's special strong; yet not as strong which I know...
Susi Alcott: then I noticed it to be people's believes
Susi Alcott: (my this incarnations base lesson is to learn to understand belief)
Susi Alcott: (but sure that's an other story; just rose to share with you here)
Susi Alcott: anyway; I still felt that 'something is missing'
Susi Alcott: but I told my founding to this lady
Susi Alcott: also told that I dont yet understand all of this energy
Susi Alcott: then she told me that she's pondered that almost whole her life, because it's so often 'introduced' to her as the god energy
Susi Alcott: but she cannot accept that to be true
Susi Alcott: so we had a short conversation of believes...
Susi Alcott: and let the analyzing to 'come later'
Susi Alcott: as we had learned that the more information uses to come by time
Pila Mulligan: you told her you found the energy she asked you to examine was a strong light containing peoples' beliefs?
Susi Alcott: then it quite soon happened that I told about my that experienced...
Pila Mulligan: oops, pardon :)
Susi Alcott: to the scientist I know
Susi Alcott: and told how I know that I dont understand all of it
Susi Alcott: then he said that there's not only believes as religions
Susi Alcott: but also the belief of such scinetists who do believe in the big bang
Susi Alcott: that was huge surprise to me, but then I got this 'clicl' to my chest, that I know all about that energy
Susi Alcott: end of the story
Pila Mulligan: thanks Susi, quite interesting
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Note to self - follow up on "introduced as the god energy but she cannot accept that to be true ... my own thoughts about levels of God ... serphaim, cheribum etc - a hierarchy, bureaucracy of the divine)
--BELL--

Susi Alcott: so we share much same thoughts with you Mitzi
Pila Mulligan: this idea seems to be that light contains peoples' beliefs
Susi Alcott: many wise people have tried to explane 'god'...so I dont want much even to try...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: really?!? I'm surprised .. but pleased Susie
Susi Alcott: but yes; you said much good words concerning 'god'
Paradise Tennant: Spiritual Hierachy of the Angelic Kingdom The name given to certain powerful and highly placed angels who are honored with the title of prince or ruling princes of heaven. The angelic princes are found especially in Jewish lore, with princes governing not only the seven heavens, but the angelic orders or choirs. Following are some of the princes of the individual choirs: Seraphim: Michael, Metatron, Uriel, Seraphiel, and Satan (before his Fall) Cherubim: Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Zophiel, and Sata (before his fall) Thrones: Zaphkiel, Raziel, Orifiel, and Jophiel Dominations: Zadkiel, Zacharel, and Muriel Virtues: Gabriel, Michael, Uzziel, Tarshish, Sabriel, and Peliel Powers: Camael, Gabriel, Verchiel, and Satan (before his Fall) Principalities: Amael, Nisroch, and Haniel Archangels: Metatron, Raphael, Michael, Gabriel, Barachiel, Jehudiel, and Satan (before his Fall) Angels: Gabriel, Chayyliel, Phaleg, and Adnachiel First - Highest Sphere Seraphim - Choirs The highest and most splendid of the ni
Paradise Tennant: ne accepted angelic orders as developed by the sixth-century theologian Dionysius the Areopagite and largely embraced by the Christian Church.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni likes Mitzi's "note to self" technique :)
Pila Mulligan: re-paste Paradidse
Paradise Tennant: opps
Mitzi Mimistrobell: 13 letters were lost!!!
Paradise Tennant: smiles . hmmm likely ..not lost just floating somewhere ..with the princes of the heavens :)
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you for telling us your story about the Light and the Energy, Susi.
Bruce Mowbray: How could anyone believe in monocausality with all those angels flying about?
Paradise Tennant: smiles it was intriguing .. thank you susi .. many of those types of experiences are very difficult to articulate :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bruce! Ha, indeed!
Susi Alcott: well; one name there's just that I feel need to 'name' different; this 'satan',,,I'de call as Lucifer, and Lucifer means 'the carrier of he LIght'
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Para - thanks for the info - I've been wanting to locate exactly such a summary. Can I ask if it comes from a particular source or tradition?
Susi Alcott: and yes; his prob was that he couldn't understand that the truth cannot be told to beings who cannot understand it
Paradise Tennant: http://howlingwindparanormalsociety.com/SpiritualHierachyoftheAngelicKingdom.html
Pila Mulligan: what binds light (in the sense of beliefs) to matter (such as a human body)?
Paradise Tennant: just did a search with you sentence ..several links came up
Bruce Mowbray: O M G (!)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Regarding the "not understanding" part - -
Bruce Mowbray: I've always said that if you have to explain to someone WHY he should get out of a room that's on fire,
Bruce Mowbray: he will not understand your explanation.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks Pardise.
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: Why is a good question sometimes, but you're playing with fire to use it
Susi Alcott: ah yes; there's never explonation to the suspisious mind
Susi Alcott: oh
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, inded you are Cal! (or indeed I am.)
Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
Susi Alcott: would like to hear more words from you Cal, why it's to play with the fire ?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Whose problem was it that he couldn't understand that the truth cannot be told to beings who cannot understand it? - Lucifer's?
Susi Alcott: yes Mitzi
Susi Alcott: in that list he's just 'named' as Satan
Calvino Rabeni: The question "why" enables people to try to explain something, then you get an "opening up" story or more often a "closing down" story, but can lose the "real thing"
Bruce Mowbray: It would seem, Mitzi, to have been God's "problem" - since he kicked Lucifer out.
Paradise Tennant: lol
Calvino Rabeni: For instance, we don't yet know "why" Lucifer had a public relations problem
Susi Alcott: and imho the part of the history concerning him, is as well misunderstood as the card of the Tarot concerning the card 'Devil'
Paradise Tennant: well always hard to get along ..no matter who not matter what :)
Paradise Tennant: lol
Susi Alcott: well; Lucifer had an onther prob also; he didn't understand that he cannot be like god is....
Paradise Tennant: maybe someone always has to be the bad cop
Mitzi Mimistrobell: But what if it wasn't the "all- pwerful God - creator of the whole unverse " but a lesser local divinity in charge of earth, or some subset of humans - who ddin't make the system but has to work with it??
Bruce Mowbray thinks: I'd be carrying a putchfork too - if that had happened to me.
Calvino Rabeni: He did, true, but he made the same decision that nearly all of us make
Bruce Mowbray: pitchfork.
Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Cal.
Susi Alcott: ah well...as Lucifer is later known as Jesus Christ...
Bruce Mowbray: The Light of the World. . .
Paradise Tennant: ?
Susi Alcott: oh what a conversation again....
Calvino Rabeni: The choice Lucifer made as the Fallen Angel - s to prefer to rule in Hell, instead of serving in Heaven
Susi Alcott: yes; we can say that the light of the world...love is huge light
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, just because we have an encounter with something beyond ournormal experience - doesn't mean that is necessaily "the Big Guy" himself we have brushed up against - I imagine that energy is way out of our league - but some more earthly aspect, and maybe just one step above our own station. We don't know.
Susi Alcott: well; he wanted to learn how that is not to know what he knew of Universe
Bruce Mowbray: Be sure to read Pema's chapter this week - It deals with the "trade-off" that Call just alluded to -- trading paradise for a belief in "existence."
Bruce Mowbray: Cal.
Calvino Rabeni: I wouldn't trade Paraise for anything
Paradise Tennant: can you give us the cole's notes bruce ?
Calvino Rabeni: So don't worry Para :)
Paradise Tennant: lol
--BELL--

Susi Alcott: ah yes MItzi; that energy I told about, is not the most high there is; the energy; Light; which is all ower just like also the bible tells, but sadly only few christians have realized that sentence from the bible...
Susi Alcott: but that most high truly is all ower; part of everything...so sure also on Earth and part of it...
Paradise Tennant: do you see this energy susi ? like some people can see auras?
Bruce Mowbray: Excuse me but what is "the cole's notes"?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I could take the thougght about monocauslity and apply it in a different way to "mono-levelism" - that is , save us from simplistic euqting of anything slightly out of the ordinary ... with GOD HI/HER/THEM/ITSELF
Paradise Tennant: smiles a canadian .. term a series of books to help you understand a topic .usually highly summarized and in bold print :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bruce, could you give your interpretation of "existence" in the statement by Pema about trading paradise for existence?
Susi Alcott: yes Paradise, but can see also that most high light...that I cannot describe but that there's no more brightness
Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm. It would really be better for you to read the unabridged version, I think.
Paradise Tennant: smiles will do
Calvino Rabeni: But I want YOUR take on it :)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, let me try to paraphrase it. . .
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'd like toread Pema's statement itself, in context if possible
Bruce Mowbray: There is comfort in "believing" that there is such a thing as "existence." We have all these appearances -- and we need (or think that we need) some "permanence" or something "solid" to back up the appearances. . . So, rather than having "mere appearance," we trade that in for "existence" (a belief in existence) - and thus we kick ourselves out of paradise (in the Western view).
Bruce Mowbray: How's that?
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks
Calvino Rabeni: What do you think "existence" refers to there?
Bruce Mowbray: I want to re-read it ---- and digest the thoughts more.
Calvino Rabeni: OK
Susi Alcott: ah ...but want to highlight Mitzi that I do not see people's aura; prefere their own energy
Susi Alcott: as aura 'holds' also such people's energy whos' thinking one when U look at him/her
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Bruce Mowbray: It's a barter that we make to have something "more reliable" than our fresh, new appearances.
Paradise Tennant: are we talking about the unpublished dialogues with stim ? do I have the right link?
Bruce Mowbray: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/1._Awareness
Bruce Mowbray: That's the link.
Susi Alcott: this is out of the topic, but...logged in thinking to try to find that area of PaB onto which people rezzed own art...
Susi Alcott: but thought now to ask if somebody had the LM there...
Paradise Tennant: thank you
Bruce Mowbray: I don't have it, Susi, but maybe someone else can help you with that.
Calvino Rabeni: There seems a commitment to agnosticism in that writing
Calvino Rabeni: How does it relate to "belief"?
Susi Alcott: well; might you Cal ask such 'good question'
Susi Alcott: which means that there's many answers or in a way none
Calvino Rabeni: :) well I might :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'll go with "many answers" and use Mitzis comment abut mono-levelitis
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I experience going in and out of such modes ... when I feel the most "divine" then reality feels like a shimmering transparent "maya" around me ... the question then is what am I retoinng on then so I feel gronded in something?
Paradise Tennant: smiles it seems I am lost :) .. in the tripartite of existence :)
Calvino Rabeni: as I see no reason to presume that "belief" is any one specific type of thing
Mitzi Mimistrobell: sorry my weird typos!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... what am I resting on then , so that I feel grounded in something?
Paradise Tennant: shimmering transparent maya .. can you say more mitzi
--BELL--

Susi Alcott: MItzi's words made this to rise from my chest now; as I once told to an other spiritual guide, who couldn't feel herself to be devine; this;
Susi Alcott: "If we cannot feel ourself to be devine, how can we ever expect that from our pupils ?
Susi Alcott: even that's our base 'teaching' that people would understand their own deivnity
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Para ... just a description, somewhat poetic, of a state that I feel sometimes, when I've been able to be tuned into my senses and nature
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Susi Alcott: indeed; the nature _/!\_
Susi Alcott: which is always truthfull
Calvino Rabeni: The last PaB session looked at nature and beauty
Calvino Rabeni: and it seemed to spin around in the idea that something is "subjective"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah ... it is the height of summer, so muich excess of beauty all around
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Paradise Tennant: smiles at mitzi yes
Calvino Rabeni: I suppose I thought it would be better off without the "subjective" idea, but it turned out that "subjective" mattered a lot to some people
Pila Mulligan remembers -- [19:36] Susi Alcott: ... my way is much just to let things to rise to my human mind...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: that's nice
Calvino Rabeni: I relate to that statement, even if Idon't know what it means, because it "rises"
Pila Mulligan: if there is objectivity, Susi's comment seems to approach the how-to part
Calvino Rabeni: It is for me, the same way I let the seeing of nature "rise"
Calvino Rabeni: Well, that's what I mean, Pila
Susi Alcott: blushes...
Paradise Tennant: freedom from the tripartite .. :) .. the i .. the action the object :)
Pila Mulligan: but "subjective" matters a lot to some people
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and interesting to consider why :)
Calvino Rabeni: it is so odd - maybe - how some defend it
Pila Mulligan: something has bound their beliefs
Calvino Rabeni: while others try to banish it
Mitzi Mimistrobell: It is a label, a name. If it matters a lot to some people, it means they are protecting something ... does it?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: What is it they are protecting?
Pila Mulligan: their beliefs :)
Calvino Rabeni: Not just that Pila
Bruce Mowbray thinks: Something to do with "relativity," perhaps. Subjectivity = relativity. (?)
Pila Mulligan: their moms?
Bruce Mowbray: "subjective" toilet training. . .
Pila Mulligan: :)
Calvino Rabeni: If a person is not sure of their right to "be", then they feel impinged upon by "reality" and feel that the subjective place is where they have some shelter
Pila Mulligan: hi Lucinda
Paradise Tennant: hiya lucinda
Bruce Mowbray: Wecome to our happy throng, Luci.
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Happy throng!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Beautiful, Calvino - resonates with what Pema was perhaps meaning re: beliefs and appearance...??
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Beautiful evening, Cinda
Calvino Rabeni: It would be nice to have two extra people here who could take sides
Lucinda Lavender: I know this might seem unexpected...
Calvino Rabeni: one for subjectivity, and one against it
Calvino Rabeni: I know two good candidates
Calvino Rabeni: And I don't want to second-guess what is important to them
Lucinda Lavender: but I must tell you have returned from a powwow and this was my first experience with it...
Pila Mulligan: unexpected Lucindacool
Pila Mulligan: meant only cool :)
Susi Alcott: Hi Lucinda
Pila Mulligan: after the typed quesiton wa answered
Pila Mulligan: oneh
Lucinda Lavender: 700 hundred dancers in discovery park
Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: wow
Pila Mulligan: sounds exciting
Lucinda Lavender: super wow
Bruce Mowbray: Amazingm Luci. That fits right into our conversation -- We've been talking about different types of energy all night.
Pila Mulligan: http://www.unitedindians.org/events002.html -- is this it?
Paradise Tennant: what do you do exactly .. at a pow wow ?
Bruce Mowbray: from angels and auras to rising bread.
Pila Mulligan: "In addition to the dancers, more than 60 vendors showcasing a wide array of Native American arts and crafts " <- Paradise
Lucinda Lavender: there was dancing, prayers, salmon dinners, fry bread, lots of jewelry and crafts
Lucinda Lavender: yes Pila
Pila Mulligan: one of my favorite powwow jokes is when the announcer says, "Luke Warmwater is int he shower"
Bruce Mowbray: sounds energetic, for sure!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino ... are you baiting me?!? Ha ha ... What would it mean to either defent or attack subjectivity
Lucinda Lavender: ha ha
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Bruce Mowbray: My auras are beginning to sag. . . Timne to hit the hay.
Calvino Rabeni: Well I don't suggest debate - except maybe you like it :) Hmmm, I can try :)
Bruce Mowbray: G'night all - and thanks for the stimulating conversation tonight.
Calvino Rabeni: But I was not suggeting it at all
Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: I was suggesting that each one say what was important to them about it
Paradise Tennant: nite bruce :) namaste
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, and sweet dreams to all of you, too.
Lucinda Lavender: Bye Bruce..and my bellness is back
Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Pila Mulligan: happy to hear you hear the ell now Lucinda ;)
Pila Mulligan: bell*
Lucinda Lavender: tell me more about your discussion...
Pila Mulligan: an hour and a half of substance :)
Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi, would it be unfair of me to think you enjoy a little baiting?
Pila Mulligan: highlighted by Susi's story of light vis a vis beliefs
Pila Mulligan: with a sideshow of Cal biating Mitzi :)
Pila Mulligan: baiting*
Pila Mulligan: or vice versa as the case may be
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni claims not to have been baiting Mitzi :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: well it's better than "beating" Mitzi!
Pila Mulligan: or biting, perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: But, I am to please :)
Calvino Rabeni: Just a nibble here and there?
Paradise Tennant: lol
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Perhaps I'm trying to trick Calvino into baiting me so I can get snippy about it!
Paradise Tennant: smiles and sees the energy !
Calvino Rabeni: :)) hehehe
Lucinda Lavender: we you talking about light?
Calvino Rabeni: Well OK Mitzi what's so great / not great about subjectivity anyway? I Disagree! :)
Calvino Rabeni: For a while, Cinda
Lucinda Lavender: and subjectivity/objectivity...
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni cringes
Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, were you talking about it in a previous chat? I wasn't there. So I don't really know the context. Give me a little direction and I'll bite!
Pila Mulligan: and moms
Paradise Tennant: : http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/1._Awareness
Paradise Tennant: this was the jumping point
Calvino Rabeni: Is that from 1PM today, Para?
Lucinda Lavender: cringing sounds subjective
Calvino Rabeni: No
Paradise Tennant: no it is pema's link
Calvino Rabeni: But we were talking about Beauty and whether it "is subjective"
Calvino Rabeni: and my point of view - have at it - is that it was, and was not
Pila Mulligan needs to be away for a while, but will leave his avi here so he can read the log after --- bye for now :)
Calvino Rabeni: As you might consider what it takes to "see"nature
Calvino Rabeni: and get affected by what is there
Paradise Tennant: waves at pila
Susi Alcott: ah, and my RL calls very soon also, so I try to go and find that place now
Calvino Rabeni: and what that is called - Beauty mayb e one word for it
Susi Alcott: and wish the best possible to all _/!\_
Paradise Tennant: smiles take care susi thank you for sharing :)
Calvino Rabeni: Enjoy, Susi
Lucinda Lavender: :) bye Susi
Calvino Rabeni: So glad you stopped by<333
Susi Alcott: was truly lovely to meet you all _/!\_
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye Susi! So good to know you.
--BELL--

Paradise provides a conceptual framework for further discussion - thanks Para :)

Paradise Tennant: Let us try these definitions:

Beauty is a sense of harmony of parts of a unit as viewed by the rational consciousness
A Unit is a thing held in the consciousness as being a member of a group of two or more similar members (thus what exists is not the unit but the thing)
To be Objective is to hold that concepts OF VALUE such as beauty of a unit are a dialectic formed in the human consciousness as:
(1) determined by the metaphysical reality of the unit, and
(2) as discovered and judged by the epistemology (= reason) of the rational consciousness.
Thus to be objective is to hold to a dialectic philosophy that entangles metaphysics and epistemology. Using these definitions one can see how beauty of a unit can be objective.
Beauty is NEITHER only in the eye of the beholder NOR is it only in the object, but beauty is a dialectic--it is the objective superposition of the object as a thing (metaphysics) as judged (epistemology) as a unit by the rational beholder.

Paradise Tennant: lol

I liked the way that definition refused to play the dichotomy game and define Beauty as Either Or subjective / objective... but didn't like the classic idea that somehow rationality was a required disposition for the experience of Beauty.  We never got to challenge that, exactly.

Calvino Rabeni: I'll go along with that mostly, except for the "rational" art
Calvino Rabeni: *part
Paradise Tennant: there is a very heated debate on this topic in the "internets" that was a clip from a dialogue still going on :)
Calvino Rabeni: Internets?
Paradise Tennant: smiles slang I will give you the link
Paradise Tennant: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=197318
Paradise Tennant: it captured I think the essence of objective beauty .. the harmony of disparate parts .. :)
Calvino Rabeni: Except, it might seem to project, all those parts as external
Calvino Rabeni: to objectify them
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: when a lot of objective beauty could be in what happens within the "subject"
Paradise Tennant: and in reality beauty is internal ?
Paradise Tennant: blinking here
Lucinda Lavender: In the color/dreaming work I have read...beauty is associated with the stones, crystals...and the mathematical way they are createdI really do not know the math myself...
Calvino Rabeni: For instance, it's not easy to be responsive to beauty when feeling tired, stressed, or grumpy
Paradise Tennant: ohh disagree .. when I am stressed grumpy and tired . I head to the art gallery in 15 minutes 20 tops .. it all disappears
Paradise Tennant: nothing like beauty to heal .. the friction of our .. "existence"
Calvino Rabeni: That kind of reinforces my point actually
Pila Mulligan: back
Calvino Rabeni: the beauty pushes that other stuff away
Calvino Rabeni: but it seems hard for them to coexist
Calvino Rabeni: wb Mitzi
Mitzi Mimistrobell: just a brief "crash" break ..!
Calvino Rabeni: So if one *likes* beauty, it seems to help to be able to let go of grumpyness
Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
Lucinda Lavender: singing helps me
Calvino Rabeni: to notice the healing effect
Calvino Rabeni: ohhh yes Lucinda
Paradise Tennant: Well sure an idea can be beautiful. Consider the Einstein Field Equation of General Relativity: [R??v ??? ?? g??v R] = [8 pi T??v]. The left side of the equation describes how the geometry of spacetime is warped and curved by matter--the right side of equation describes the movement of matter in the gravitational field. As stated by physicist John Wheeler, "matter tells spacetime how to curve, and curved space tells matter how to move". This idea, this equation, is objectively beautiful..
Calvino Rabeni: connecting a few dots ... well powow makes me remember the native american idea of "medicine" and that many things can be "medicine", like a natural environment, to have the healing or other effect
Paradise Tennant: that is I think a good example of how objective beauty is percieved .. by our rational minds
Paradise Tennant: and lucinda would draw on colours ..dreams
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Logically, we cannot overcome subjectivity at all. So, we must deal with it.
Paradise Tennant: smiles at mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: I guess it is possible for certain exalted figures to perceive beauty with the rational mind :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: BTW, Paradise, I didn't know that and find it wonderful (about the field equation). Thank you!!
Calvino Rabeni: But I haven't been convinced it is essential or even the primary access to beauty
Paradise Tennant: the odd part being ..that our rational minds are anything but rational :)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: And in fact I feel slightly resistant to it, because associating beauty with the classic ideas of what makes good mathematics, would seem to exclude a great deal of reality from being well-appreciated
Calvino Rabeni: ah but actually what is "rational mind"?
Paradise Tennant: smiles and most certainly does not know :)
Calvino Rabeni: Waiting for Lucinda :)
Pila Mulligan: the complement to 'empirical mind'?
Lucinda Lavender: When the Native Americans speak of walking the beauty way or path in the world it is about walking in aharmonious way with nature
Paradise Tennant: yes ..! beauty is harmony ! ..
Calvino Rabeni: worth listening to, for a different cultural perspective
Paradise Tennant: that is what gets through to us
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Calvino Rabeni: beauty is what touches us deeply
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I missed something when I was away ... were we discussing whether mathematical symmetry equates with Beauty? And Calvino was feeling unconfortable about that?
Paradise Tennant: how does it touch you
Lucinda Lavender: but what about the gems
Lucinda Lavender: the light they reflect then reflects back through us?
Calvino Rabeni: I'm uncomfortable with classic philosophy of beauty and its association with mathematics rationality symmetry etc.
Calvino Rabeni: although I don't disagree it can connect with those things
Calvino Rabeni: I feel that's too small a definition
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well the word "beauty " means something different to each person.
Calvino Rabeni: unless it is objective
Paradise Tennant: smiles at lucinda .. and wonders .. of the harmony in rock :)
Calvino Rabeni: so one possible definition of beauty is - something that bridges the gap between subjective and objective, and creates a "larger" experience
Paradise Tennant: harmonizes the subjective to the objective
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Is there not a part of the feeling of beauty, of being "touched" by something outside of the familiar circle of subjectivity, and it being a bit thrilling?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks Paradise (she give me some definitions)
Calvino Rabeni: And at the same time, with an element of uncanniness
Calvino Rabeni: a touch of the strange Other
Paradise Tennant: thinks it takes you to a place within you ..where you does not exist :)
Calvino Rabeni: a hint of danger
Calvino Rabeni: There was an intuition of medieval theologians that to see god would be too intense, would be blinding
Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if that is a extrapolation of the idea of beauty
Calvino Rabeni: because when I experience it, I feel "stretched"
Lucinda Lavender: brb...phone
Lucinda Lavender: brb
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well that's your (very delightful) interpretation of the word "beauty". But who knows what others mean by it?>
Paradise Tennant: The more one is aware the more beauty one experiences ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: THings that one might have once thought "ugly" can become "beautiful" when one's perspective changes
Paradise Tennant: yes ... with real seeing
Pila Mulligan: Lao Tse: "Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness. All can know good as good only because there is evil. Therefore having and not having arise together."
Calvino Rabeni: What's your interpretation Mitzi?
Calvino Rabeni: And what kind s of things are gathered second-hand?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: It's a very flexible word - so if we are discussing beauty we are only just mirroring to ourselves our own associations with the word. And others project their own meanings onto it. So we are together, dreaming separately. ..
Calvino Rabeni: Ok, I think, here's a champion of subjectivity ?
Calvino Rabeni: Yet beauty seems to "rub off" on the beholder
Calvino Rabeni: if only for a moment, with a fragrance
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I am a champion of clear discourse only! (still hoping for a fight)
Paradise Tennant: lol
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: Even though we are prisoners of our own subjectivity, yet, we can yearn and strive to understand reality as best we may considering our limiations!
Calvino Rabeni: Note to self - instigate fight with Mitzi at some point, by request :)
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: note to self ..go to bed you have to be up in 6 hours :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ha ha ha! Such an obliging host you are, Calvino.
Paradise Tennant: sigh thanks .. so much for the conversation .. errr for the clear discourse :)
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni bids Paradise sweet rest and dreams
Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams Paradise
Lucinda Lavender: the stones...stones are small packages that focus and condense light
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, good evening Paradise - thanks for all the great info!
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, thanks for those
Paradise Tennant: good nite all .. sweet dreams to one and all ...full of colour light energy .. harmony ..beauty and the smell of fresh bread :)
Lucinda Lavender: paradise...:)good night
Pila Mulligan: big wave to Toronot: http://www.zannel.com/webservices/content/AVU15G8DPH/Image-568x758-JPG.jpg
Pila Mulligan: Toronto*
Mitzi Mimistrobell: To clarify a bit ... I greatly fear subjectivity and distrust it and continually strive for objectivity - yet, to do this, I can't deny that I am a specific point in the universe with a unique perspective and many filters and limiations ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... so I have to take account of that fact in my striving for understanding ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... so does that make me a defender of subjectivity? I am trying so hard to become objective .. to outweight the enormou biases of the subjective ... Yes, Calfino, Reaching out through the bars!!
Calvino Rabeni: You know the Heaven and Hell story about the Diners?
Calvino Rabeni: (and I promise, no more metaphors beyind that)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: go ahead "tell me a story"
Calvino Rabeni: Some person asked an angel or whatever, - what is the difference between Heaven and Hell
Calvino Rabeni: ?
Calvino Rabeni: So the angel took him/her to Hell
Calvino Rabeni: And there was a great banquet going on
Calvino Rabeni: with lavish food - no fire, brimstone, nothing like that
Calvino Rabeni: and people were trying to eat - but each of them were holding a fork that was 3 feet long
Calvino Rabeni: they could not reach the food to their mouth to eat
Calvino Rabeni: and were just hungry and frustrated
Calvino Rabeni: The visitor thought - "what cruel torture" - this is hell
Calvino Rabeni: Then the angel took him/her to heaven
Calvino Rabeni: expecting to see something different, no doubt
Calvino Rabeni: when he/she got there, discovered the same banquet
Calvino Rabeni: and the same forks also !
Calvino Rabeni: But in this case everyone was laughing and relaxed and feeding one another across the table
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I see - this is Heaven, and this is the difference! thought the visitor
Calvino Rabeni: (end of parable)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: so ... how does that relate to the topic of subjectivity and objectivity ...?
Calvino Rabeni: Objectivity is when we know what to do with the forks
Calvino Rabeni: Subjectivity is forgetting
Calvino Rabeni: or rather, the idea of being "prisoners"
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: The phrase skillful means comes to mind as well
Lucinda Lavender: great story telling:)must go for now...see you later...sweet dreams
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Nice to see you again, Lucinda.
Pila Mulligan slips away also -- g'nite all
Calvino Rabeni: Good night and dream lavishly, Lucinda and Pila
Lucinda Lavender: thank you all..
Calvino Rabeni: <333
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah, we have driven them away again!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: What is the meaning of c333?
Calvino Rabeni: <3 is an emoticon for "heart"
Calvino Rabeni: and or emphasis it repeats
Calvino Rabeni: <3<3<3
Calvino Rabeni: and contracts to <333
Calvino Rabeni: I've seen this in non-american chat rooms and forums
Mitzi Mimistrobell: awww ... you're making it so hard to fight with you.
Calvino Rabeni: Some countries have languages that repeat a word for emphasis
Calvino Rabeni: rather than big, bigger, biggest
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, many of them do I think!
Calvino Rabeni: they have just big, big big, big big big
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Logical enough!
Calvino Rabeni: A very efficient design for a language, as I see it
Calvino Rabeni: Like one time I went to a disco or something, in asia
Calvino Rabeni: no one was there
Calvino Rabeni: "we have no person"
Calvino Rabeni: said the man
Calvino Rabeni: "but come midnight, we have person much *much* MUCH
Calvino Rabeni: (literal translation)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: And his meaning was crystal clear!
Calvino Rabeni: Yes. also *fun to say*
Calvino Rabeni: English may have its own esthetic qualities to enjoy
Mitzi Mimistrobell: it does indeed
Calvino Rabeni: This would be a good time for a dinner break
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hey Calvino, I'm going to sign off ... let's have another fight again soon! huh!
Calvino Rabeni: maybe talk to you later, Mitzi?
Calvino Rabeni: OK watch out :)
Calvino Rabeni: <333 to you :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now :)