2012.01.15 01:00 - Do we know what freedom is?

Wol Euler was guardian for this long and curious session. I couldn't decide whether Lawrence was genuinely curious or just playing intellectual games. By the end of an hour I found myself thinking of the particular grin that you see on four-year-olds' faces as they ask you "why" for the thirty-seventh time in succession. See for yourselves.

Bertram Jacobus: hi there :-)
Bertram Jacobus: you're here for the pab meeting ? :-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: yup
Bertram Jacobus: nice - so i'll sit ... ;-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: k
Bertram Jacobus: i love to sit ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: and find it strange sometimes when the people stand for hours in sl ... ;-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha k
Lawrence Vyceratops: i find it strange when people meet to meditate in silence and then leave haha
Bertram Jacobus: ah ! yes ! where do you experience such behaviours ? ... ;-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: at the so-called buddhist meeting places haha
Bertram Jacobus: ah - i see : you are member of buddha center ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: am i? how do i unjoin?
Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, Wol
Bertram Jacobus: oh. i think, you can right click your avatar, then choose groups, then open the group and unjoin should be possible - i hope ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hi wol ... good morning ! :-)
Wol Euler: hello lawrence, berti
Bertram Jacobus: you don't have to open the group i saw now ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: cool. thanks
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. very welcome
Wol Euler: how is everyone this morning?
Bertram Jacobus: i'm ... still a bit tired - you ? :-)
Wol Euler: same
Wol Euler: :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: fine. haven't seen you guys in about a year!
Wol Euler: where have you been?
Lawrence Vyceratops: had a baby 7 mos. ago! :D
Bertram Jacobus: where do you live lawrence ? if i may ask ...
Wol Euler: wow :) no wonder
Lawrence Vyceratops: mississippi
Wol Euler: congratulations
Lawrence Vyceratops: thank you :)
Bertram Jacobus: so it's deep in the night at your place, isn't it lawrence ?!
Wol Euler: ah, and is your being here and now, and awake at 4am in RL, perhaps connected to said baby? :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: yes, it's late. Little Henry is asleep. i work late, so not uncommon for me to be awake at 3AM.
Wol Euler: ah, so not that bad
Lawrence Vyceratops: nah
Wol Euler: I assumed you were up *early* with him :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: i leave for work at half past noon and he is usually still asleep :)

--BELL--

Lawrence Vyceratops: oh, i see . no, he's out :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Bertram Jacobus: why is that work at nights ?
Lawrence Vyceratops: i do tattoos.
Wol Euler: wow
Lawrence Vyceratops: unfortunately! haha
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: does working late mean you get people coming in from the bar, raving drunk, wanting tattoos?
Lawrence Vyceratops: no. everyone knows by now that they wont get tattooed under the influence
Wol Euler: good! heheheh
Lawrence Vyceratops: under the influence of alcohol. unfortunately, the do get tattooed under the influence of society and TV!
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: why do you suppose it's so fashionable?
Bertram Jacobus: ma gf wants to have another tatoo as well ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: people are vain. they are greedy and so willing to follow whomever if they think it will raise their status with certain individuals or groups.
Lawrence Vyceratops: not all people, but many
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: a comprehensive and true-sounding answer
Wol Euler: (must be a better word for "true-sounding" :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: it's obvious to me. i have so many people coming in saying, "i want a tattoo." i ask, "what do you want?" "i don't know," they reply. ;)
Wol Euler: heh
Lawrence Vyceratops: they just want because everybody else has.
Wol Euler nods.
Lawrence Vyceratops: that's why i often say "unfortunately" when people ask what i do! haha
Wol Euler: yeah, I can see that.
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm - interesting to me ... because ma gf has already at least 3, may be 4 ...
Bertram Jacobus: she will say that she likes it, very simply ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: my wife has 5. she wants more too
Wol Euler grins.
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. and you ? how many do you have ?
Lawrence Vyceratops: i don't know. too many! haha
Wol Euler: heheheh
Bertram Jacobus: lol okay ;-)
Wol Euler: I found out this christmas that my nephew and his girlfriend are tattooed, have been for years; I'd never seen their tats.
Wol Euler: they always wear long-sleeved shirts when around the house
Lawrence Vyceratops: a lot of people hide them from family haha
Wol Euler: my sister's house
Wol Euler: oh, sis knows :) but my mother, thteir grandmother, would have a heart attack :)
Wol Euler: niece's pierced lip was bad enough! :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: it's quite common
Lawrence Vyceratops: even grown ups hide them!
Wol Euler: yeah
Lawrence Vyceratops: it's rather silly in this day and age
Wol Euler: how so?
Bertram Jacobus: very different relatives you seem to have wol ... :-)
Wol Euler: oh, the hiding
Wol Euler: right
Wol Euler: sorry
Lawrence Vyceratops: because such a large percentage of the population have them now.
Wol Euler: exactly
Wol Euler: I was going to say, in Germany today it seems that half of people under 30 are tattooed, pierced or branded - or several of the above

--BELL--

Lawrence Vyceratops: some people find out that a family member has one and then they say, "hey, me too!" hiding from each other. haha
Wol Euler: heheh

Lawrence returns to the first topic, and the fun starts.

Lawrence Vyceratops: i wonder what signficance people place on the time of silence as a means to attain something.
Lawrence Vyceratops: the 90 seconds, like a mini-meditation.
Wol Euler: exactly that, for us :)
Wol Euler: we specialize in mini-meditations
Lawrence Vyceratops: i was telling bert about some who meet in sl to sit quietly and then they leave when it is over
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: I can fully understand that
Wol Euler: to me that is no different from going down the street to the Buddha House to sit quietly, and coming home when it's over
Wol Euler: I think it is because quietness is so hard to come by, these days
Wol Euler: we have so many distractions, many many many more than any previous generation
Bertram Jacobus: buddha house ? in your town wol ?
Wol Euler: it takes a special location and time to shut those off
Wol Euler: yes indeed :) quite near me
Bertram Jacobus: wow - how nice ! i didn't know that ! :-)
Bertram Jacobus: but
Wol Euler: Ayya Khema, you know of her?
Bertram Jacobus: the special locations and times shall be only a training area - to learn to be able to be quiet inside - everywhere and always ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: but what is the significance of this forced quietness?
Bertram Jacobus: oh yes ! i know her ... :-)
Wol Euler: well, when there is no noise outside your head, you can hear the noise inside :)
Wol Euler: and having become aware of it, begin to steer it
Lawrence Vyceratops: why?
Bertram Jacobus: getting rid of it
Wol Euler: not being ruled by it
Wol Euler: it gives you a chance to see and reconsider how and why you do things
Bertram Jacobus: finding peace and freedom
Lawrence Vyceratops: but then afterwards, it's noisy again is that peace and freedom?
Lawrence Vyceratops: truly?
Wol Euler: of course not, not in itself
Bertram Jacobus: it's like i wrote before : on the cushion, it's a training
Wol Euler: the freedom is becoming aware that the noise is there, and being able to choose to continue in it or not
Wol Euler: like the noise of society encouraging tattoos, makes me think I want one
Bertram Jacobus: to learn to have that inner peace and freedom more and more until at the end - constantly
Lawrence Vyceratops: is choice freedom?
Wol Euler: of course not, not in itself :)
Wol Euler: but it makes your becoming free possible
Wol Euler: can't open a door that you do not know is there
Lawrence Vyceratops: is the act of becoming, is it free?
Lawrence Vyceratops: is it freedom, i mean?
Wol Euler: it brings you closer to freedom
Wol Euler ponders.
Lawrence Vyceratops: do we know what freedom is?
Wol Euler: becoming free is like a country achieving a perfectly fair and just society. It will never happen, but it is very important that we keep on trying to get there!
Bertram Jacobus: perhaps we can use the next 90 second period to experience the stopping of action and then , afterwards, we could share our experiences with oit ?
Wol Euler: good idea
Bertram Jacobus: stopping of acting i meant, sry
Lawrence Vyceratops: have we ever had this freedom?
Wol Euler: I don't know. Some people probably have done, just statistically. Those who did, did.
Bertram Jacobus: i think, we can experience it. at least more or less first
Lawrence Vyceratops: but i mean personally, have we?
Bertram Jacobus: that is often my access : the more or less aspect !
Wol Euler: talk about that after the break :) for 90 seconds, try not to think or do: just watch yourself breathing and let your thoughts clear away like clouds in the sun

--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: :-) ...
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: how was that, lawrence?
Lawrence Vyceratops: what are you guys smiling about ? :) heheh
Bertram Jacobus: about the experience - of relative silence ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: how was what?
Wol Euler: the 90 seconds of not-doing and not-thinking
Bertram Jacobus: i like those breaks
Lawrence Vyceratops: i'm not sure i follow...
Bertram Jacobus: there mostly is a lot of thinking in my experiences
Wol Euler: berti and I just did a mini-meditation
Lawrence Vyceratops: in experience, there is alwasy thinking :)
Wol Euler: I hoped you would join in.
Wol Euler: of course :) and it's truly amazing how much of it goes on, which I first saw when I started meditating
Wol Euler: layers and layers of thinking!
Bertram Jacobus: but when i don't make thought chains of it - it's way better, nicer, as a break , retirement ...
Wol Euler: thinking about thinking
Wol Euler: that's what I meant before about "noise inside"
Lawrence Vyceratops: so, meditation is used as an escape?
Wol Euler: those who use it that way, do so.
Bertram Jacobus: but sometimes - i experience - nothing - and that is really nice. feels very good. i mean an aware experience of nothing so to say ...
Wol Euler: meditation is a screwdriver. You can turn screws with it, or open cans of tomato juice, or kill people
Bertram Jacobus: hehe . how do you mean that wol ?
Wol Euler: it's a tool. If you are asking personally, I started on meditation to deal with work-related anxiety attacks
Wol Euler: looking for a way to overcome that panic and calm myself donw
Bertram Jacobus: and no lawrence. no escape. some misuse it like that but that is not to recommend ;-)
Wol Euler: for me it was simply a tool, but it's become more than that
Bertram Jacobus: ah i see ty wol ! :-)
Wol Euler: it gives you a bit of quiet and space in which to do some real thinking
Bertram Jacobus: my first motivation was "to find god" - 39 years ago now ... :o)
Lawrence Vyceratops: what is real thinking?
Lawrence Vyceratops: what motivates now, bert?
Bertram Jacobus: being able to help and live better lawrence. to get some energy. hopefully to develop more and more qualities ...
Bertram Jacobus: many aspects
Lawrence Vyceratops: although we are here to play as being, it seems, a lot, that we play at becoming ;) heheh
Bertram Jacobus: lol. agree :-)
Wol Euler: in the case of my panic attacks, I could not think. All that was in my head was "oh my god, it's all so terrible"
Wol Euler: too much noise.
Wol Euler: that is what I mean by unreal thinking
Wol Euler: habitual, repetition, self-defeating
Wol Euler: I repeat: in my case, in that situation
Lawrence Vyceratops: so, meditate to become less anxious?
Wol Euler: in my case, yes
Lawrence Vyceratops: so, if meditation is used to become, what is one to do to just be?
Wol Euler: if one is perfectly happy with what one is, then nothing at all :)
Wol Euler: but I would guess that none of us are perfectly happy, not as I know humanity
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: you aren't, for example :) you are upset about some of your clients who want tattoos simply for prestige without thought for art or self-improvement
Lawrence Vyceratops: if none are happy, how can we know that to be happy is what we want? haha
Wol Euler: I don't know.
Wol Euler: I have the feeling that you want us to tell you perfect methods for achieving perfect results.
Wol Euler: well, there are none.
Wol Euler: sorry :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: i don't seek to become
Wol Euler: that's fine :)
Bertram Jacobus: i found wols words nice which were that nothing is necessairy when perfection is reached
Bertram Jacobus: nothing to do then anymore. just being
Lawrence Vyceratops: waht is perfection?
Wol Euler: I don't know. What do you think it is?
Bertram Jacobus: no wishes anymore, no suffering

--BELL--

Lawrence Vyceratops: can we know perfection? is it just an idea?
Bertram Jacobus: we often experiece a better feeling when we meditate or meditated ...
Wol Euler: it is a goal, perhaps; an ideal
Wol Euler: like "building a fair and just society"
Bertram Jacobus: and i didn't understand lawrece - what disturbs you when people gather for meditation in sl and then leave again ?
Wol Euler: we'll never get there, but trying to get there is better than staying in an unfair and unjust sodceity
Lawrence Vyceratops: does not an ideal prevent us from seeing what is actual?
Wol Euler: I don't know. does it?
Lawrence Vyceratops: i only wonder what they are doing.
Bertram Jacobus: some say, you could reach it wol - inside yourself. which results in a perfect view even related to the "outer" circumstances ! ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: i find it curious.
Bertram Jacobus: hehe
Wol Euler: [01:34] Wol Euler: to me that is no different from going down the street to the Buddha House to sit quietly, and coming home when it's over
Wol Euler: are you curious about meditation itself, or about thier coming here to do it?
Lawrence Vyceratops: i am curious about why people meditate; what they hope to achieve
Bertram Jacobus: it's also said, meditation can help to become more open, which means sometimes to understand bet, experience less borders ...ter, feel more
Bertram Jacobus: understand more, experience less borders, feel what others feel and such
Lawrence Vyceratops: here, we come to play as being. if meditation has to do with becoming, what place has it in pab?
Bertram Jacobus: sorry : my laptop sometimes mixes letters up *gr* :o)
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha
Bertram Jacobus: meditation can also be a mean for the here and now
Wol Euler: meditation is a tool, like a screwdriver or a pencil
Wol Euler: you can write a novel with a pencil, or a death threat
Wol Euler: up to you
Wol Euler: (I will have to leave in about 12 minutes to go to work)
Bertram Jacobus: becoming was only a part of my personal, may be very unperfect character
Bertram Jacobus: sunday work - bah wol ... ;-)
Wol Euler: I can say this: that meditation has brought calm and balance into my life.
Wol Euler: it has made me a happier and better person.
Wol Euler: better to myself and to those around me. Friends have remarked on the change
Wol Euler: I am able to change the atmosphere of where I work, make it less hostile
Wol Euler: that to me is a good thing
Bertram Jacobus: how nice ! ...
Wol Euler: is this "becoming"? perhaps not, but frankly I don't care.
Bertram Jacobus: there are many ways to be and become happy i guess ...
Wol Euler: some people use meditation to find god. Great, good for them
Wol Euler: some people use meditation as a kind of distraction. I find that less than idea, but still: good for them
Wol Euler: it's a tool
Bertram Jacobus: and i always hope and prefere the ways which make as many people as possible as happy as possible ;-)
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: the thing about distraction is that the problem you were hiding from, still remains
Bertram Jacobus: do you dislike this to : could i do something better ?alk lawrence ? and if s
Wol Euler: you are only putting off unhappiness, not removing it
Lawrence Vyceratops: i never mentioned disliked. i merely questioned.
Bertram Jacobus: this talk ... bah - mixed up letters again *gr*
Bertram Jacobus: i did not say that you mentioned that. i asked because i had such an impression ...
Bertram Jacobus: so we all ask ... :o)
Lawrence Vyceratops: i see questioning much more important than answering, often
Wol Euler: do you question yourself too?
Bertram Jacobus: i exactly the other way round ! but that seems to be not very popular ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: that is the only kind of question that is serious! :)

--BELL--

Wol Euler: indeed; but do you do it?
Bertram Jacobus: hi pastor :-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, Pastor
Wol Euler: hello Pastor, have you been here before?
Pastor Carnell: greetings all
Lawrence Vyceratops: of course, Wol.
Pastor Carnell: I was here before yes
Pastor Carnell: but I don't recall any of you
Wol Euler: good, so you've had the notecard and know about our website :)
Pastor Carnell: uhm not really
Wol Euler: ah :)
Bertram Jacobus: i think, we didn't meet before pastor ... so hello once more / again ! ;-)
Pastor Carnell: I just know you ppl here talk about anything
Wol Euler: okay, I have three minutes before I have to leave for work, so it'll have to be a very brief intro
Wol Euler: where do you know that from, I wonder? :)
Pastor Carnell: aye I'm sorry
Pastor Carnell: I was here before
Bertram Jacobus says bye and have a very nice day, in advance already now ! ... ;-)
Wol Euler: fair enough :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: basically, anything you say might be posted on the website, right?
Bertram Jacobus: hi qt ! :-)
Wol Euler: we record these sessions and publish them on our website, http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, Qt
Wol Euler: not "might", will.
Pastor Carnell: I can live with that
Qt Core: Hi all
Lawrence Vyceratops: will, of course
Wol Euler: may we have your permission ... great, thank you
Pastor Carnell nods
Wol Euler: and with that, I must leave
Wol Euler: sorry to walk out in mid-convesration :(
Pastor Carnell: be well
Lawrence Vyceratops: bye, Wol.
Qt Core: bye Wol
Wol Euler: take care, enjoy the day
Lawrence Vyceratops: it's fine :)
Bertram Jacobus: byeee dear wol
Qt Core: so, do you have a topic running ?
Lawrence Vyceratops: a couple, i think...
Pastor Carnell: lets not this to be the end of words for today
Lawrence Vyceratops: we were discussing what meditation is and also that we play as being, but more often end up play as becoming, right bert?
Pastor Carnell: I just know that many ppl think as meditation to be simple
Qt Core: well, just being instyead of becoming is hard, evem when you think you are static you change, even if "only" rooting yourself deeper in your place
Pastor Carnell: it is in a way, but its not just being silince
Pastor Carnell: actually I still don't know what meditation is to be honoust
Bertram Jacobus: sry - i was distracted lawrence - let me think ... ;-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: there are a hundred definitions, as i'm finding out! haha
Pastor Carnell: how is it that some monks can levitate under meditation,
Lawrence Vyceratops: i have visited buddhist centers here in sl and they meet to meditate silently and then leave. here, at pab, there is frequent 90 seconds of silence.
Bertram Jacobus: yes. and it was only my description - the becoming thing , i guess - often that may be a fault of mine ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: i doubt monks levitate ;)
Pastor Carnell: most yogis use a stupid trick
Bertram Jacobus: most important to me was that it helps
Lawrence Vyceratops: of course. people love tricks! :D
Pastor Carnell: but some nepal monks seem to do it
Pastor Carnell: with no tricks
Lawrence Vyceratops: i doubt that... sorry.
Bertram Jacobus: sry - i "need" some food <---> afk ...
Pastor Carnell: they say its possible by novices to do the same
Lawrence Vyceratops: k, bert :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: possible for novices to learn tricks? ;)
Pastor Carnell: if it is tricks
Pastor Carnell: what about Buddha boy?
Lawrence Vyceratops: what boy?
Pastor Carnell: he was meditating for years without eating or drinking
Lawrence Vyceratops: i doubt that.
Pastor Carnell: me too, but it doesn't keep me from wondering
Lawrence Vyceratops: why?
Pastor Carnell: I don't know
Pastor Carnell: what if there is more to it?

--BELL--

Lawrence Vyceratops: here's that silence again.... heheh
Pastor Carnell: I used to believe in God
Lawrence Vyceratops: yes?
Pastor Carnell: then I lost that believe for Buddhism
Lawrence Vyceratops: and do you have a belief now?
Pastor Carnell: and now I wonder about those mysteries
Pastor Carnell: I don't know
Lawrence Vyceratops: why do we seek a belief?
Pastor Carnell: I feel I'm into Buddhism but I'm so sceptic
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: skepticism is very good!
Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, Alfred
Qt Core: while bert is eating i have to go doing some cooking
Qt Core: Hi alfred
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha ok, Qt :)
Alfred Kelberry: ha! berty's afk :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: i just finished off some cookies!
Qt Core: bye all, and have fun!
Alfred Kelberry: bye cutie
Alfred Kelberry: berty is back :)
Bertram Jacobus: hi boxy ! :-)
Alfred Kelberry: is woly around?
Lawrence Vyceratops: went to work
Alfred Kelberry: ah
Bertram Jacobus: yep ... and wouldn't say that scepticism were good - in contrary : i see it as the counter part to blind belief ... in the middle i see realism - that is what i personally prefere ...
Alfred Kelberry: sunday. not kosher.
Bertram Jacobus: right boxy ! :-)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Bertram Jacobus: ··..•♥•··..☺ SaTiA ☺ ..··•♥•..··
Bertram Jacobus: greetings from boxy :-)
Alfred Kelberry: ha! satia girl and layla! :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: ah! reality! a great topic!
Bertram Jacobus: hehe - yes ! :o)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. agree lawrence ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: s a t i a girl and layla doggie :o)
Lawrence Vyceratops: a great topic expecially for play as being
Alfred Kelberry: good observation, berty
Alfred Kelberry: i'll take that
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Alfred Kelberry: though, i lean on the scepticism side :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: especially because reality is now and not past or future
Bertram Jacobus: lol
Bertram Jacobus: you know eckard tolle lawrence ?
Alfred Kelberry: i think buddha too, no, berty?
Lawrence Vyceratops: know? no.
Bertram Jacobus: buddha - what pls boxy ?
Pastor Carnell: what about a monk that levitates in front of an illusionist's eyes, and he can't explain it?
Bertram Jacobus: tolle writes and teaches a lot about "now"
Alfred Kelberry: favors scepticism
Lawrence Vyceratops: you are really stuck on the levitation thing, huh Pastor? ;)
Bertram Jacobus: it's popular boxy ... ;o)
Pastor Carnell: its because I saw it and I can't explain it
Bertram Jacobus: but isn't scepticism thought to lead to insights of realism and reality ?
Alfred Kelberry: pastor, a nice trick :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: can you explain quantum mechanics? i have a tough time with that one.
Alfred Kelberry: berty, yes. "test" dharma offering (your word, btw!) with reality and see for yourself.
Pastor Carnell: but what if quantum mechanics are handled through simple meditation technics?
Bertram Jacobus: explain quantum mechanics ... that is a wide topic i guess, not only a few aspects ...
Alfred Kelberry: lawrence, i think many have :)
Alfred Kelberry: even einstein :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha
Pastor Carnell: some things that seem hard to do, are done by children so easely
Bertram Jacobus: which is my word boxy pls ? :-)
Pastor Carnell: maybe we think too much
Lawrence Vyceratops: Too much of a particular kind, I'm sure, Pastor.
Pastor Carnell: I will take my leave now
Lawrence Vyceratops: goodnight, Pastor
Pastor Carnell: anyway, try to think further than facts
Bertram Jacobus: byee pastor
Pastor Carnell: take care, see ye later
Bertram Jacobus: nice gesture ... :-)
Lawrence Vyceratops: that is not generally a problem ;) take care.
Bertram Jacobus: nearly two hours here now - time for me to leave as well ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: ah we finally get to now and it's over haha
Bertram Jacobus: may all beings be happy please !
Lawrence Vyceratops: night, Bert

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: ah, they left
Lawrence Vyceratops: yuppers.
Alfred Kelberry: one glimpse of reality and they're gone :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha yes
Lawrence Vyceratops: that's how it works ;)
Alfred Kelberry: woly?!
Alfred Kelberry: maybe she can hear...
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha
Lawrence Vyceratops: well, i guess that's it for tonight?
Alfred Kelberry: i suppose so... and i'm being summoned
Lawrence Vyceratops: night, Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: be well, lawrence :)