2012.01.24 13:00 - Information Ethics

The Guardian for this meeting was Korel Laloix. Eliza stole the log... hehe...

Korel Laloix: Heya
Korel Laloix: How you doing today?
Sunfire Langer: pretty good, thank you. How about you?
Korel Laloix: Having a lul at work.
Sunfire Langer: Ah.. are you on lunchbreak now?
Korel Laloix: So finaly getting some lunch and taking a break.
Korel Laloix: My work allows me to be on SL during work if nohing is going on.
Korel Laloix: I am sort of an overglorified receptionist for a firm that does most of its client relations via internet.
Korel Laloix: wow... so lagged today.

Sunfire Langer: Apparently, you're a personality that challenges me be able to hold my composure. Now that's interesting
Sunfire Langer: 'Them's fightin' words!'
Korel Laloix smiles
Korel Laloix: Just something someone accused me of a while back.... and everyone around agreed.
Korel Laloix: So thought it a fair warning.
Sunfire Langer: bummer. Maybe it was them
Korel Laloix: Could have been, I enjoy the company of other annoying people..... grins

--BELL--

Sunfire Langer: I do too. I worry that I'm seen as too forceful a lot of the time. I kind of get impulsive in groups, sometimes speak before thinking. I'd like to not have such a big mouth.
Korel Laloix: I have been accused of being pushy and overbearing before.
Korel Laloix: But I don't appologies for it.
Sunfire Langer: Could you explain why you don't apologise for it? I feel like I'm not being real when I apologise for it, but it'd be good to hear about a similar experience.
Korel Laloix: Are lagging bad here at the momet?
Sunfire Langer: a little

Korel Laloix: Well, when I get together with my little gang RL, if I don't take control, they just sit aroud and no one makes a decision so we do nothing.
Korel Laloix: And I can't stand that.... lol.
Korel Laloix: Soo...... I just make up our minds and wait to see if I get any pushback.
Korel Laloix: And most of the time I don't.
Korel Laloix: SO it is functional a lot of the time.
Korel Laloix: Sorry... can't see what I am typing until afer I hit enter.
Sunfire Langer: Sounds like a natural leader
Sunfire Langer: its fine, really
Korel Laloix: Or pushy bitch.... grins
Sunfire Langer laughs

Korel Laloix: But I will also argue with somone until they at least recognize my point of view.
Sunfire Langer: There's this great quote 'It is senseless to divide people into good or bad, people are either charming or they are tedious'.
Korel Laloix: I don't demand agreement, but I do at least ask that you try to see things from my persepctive..... and the perspective of others involved as well.
Sunfire Langer: Good, thats absolutely right that you do
Korel Laloix: Do you know who said that?
Sunfire Langer: Oscar Wilde, crazy gay irishman
Korel Laloix: I have heard the name.

Korel Laloix: And people find me most annoyoing becuase I dont fit their molds.
Korel Laloix: A bunch of folks should be over soon, they are over at the house.
Sunfire Langer: oh right, are those the ones I can see on my map?
Korel Laloix: Yes.
Korel Laloix: I am a wok so I just pop in here when I can.
Korel Laloix: Interesting reading list.
Korel Laloix: Bozho Lawrence.
Lawrence Vyceratops: hello
Sunfire Langer: ty. Gday Lawrence
Korel Laloix: Heya Visitor 1
Sunfire Langer: Hello sweetheart
Visitor 1: hi love
Visitor 1: hello korei
Korel Laloix: What is everyone up to today?
Lawrence Vyceratops: not much.

--BELL--

Lawrence Vyceratops: day off-relaxng
Korel Laloix: Not going to have ay of those for a while.
Korel Laloix: Classes are back in.
Korel Laloix: So not a lot of free time for a bit.
Lawrence Vyceratops: ah.

Sunfire Langer: What's on your mind lately, Lawrence?
Korel Laloix: Anyone have topic the want to look at today?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Same thing as always, I suppose...
Sunfire Langer: Ah, sex, status and impending death, then ;-)
Korel Laloix: All can be fun.

Korel Laloix: I had an interesting conversation yesterday.
Sunfire Langer: Hopefuly not all at the same time :-/
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha

Korel Laloix: I am seeing a librarian at the moment.
Lawrence Vyceratops: deeper than that, though
Sunfire Langer: fantastic
Korel Laloix: And we got to talking about ethics......
Korel Laloix: And how her job is to help people get information.
Korel Laloix: But what are the limits of that?
Korel Laloix: Pornograpy?
Korel Laloix: SHoud she help somone that keeps looking up terrorist sites?
Korel Laloix: Hate speach content?
Korel Laloix: No right or rong answer, but part of her proffesional reading.
Korel Laloix: Any thoughts?

Sunfire Langer: I think looking at is fine makin it yourself is very bad
Korel Laloix: I had never really given that much attention.
Lawrence Vyceratops: she helps people Google? i don't understand..
Korel Laloix: lol... In some cases yes..... she does teach the intro to research class and she des have some returning adult students that have never been on a computer.
Korel Laloix: Sorry, so lagged I can't see whatI am typing until after I hit return.

Lawrence Vyceratops: She is wondering the limits? I suppose she should ask the owner of the library if she is uncertain about her own judgment
Korel Laloix: She is not wondering.
Korel Laloix: It is just a boundary question.
Korel Laloix: THere are policies of course.

Korel Laloix: But are those policies really ethical?
Korel Laloix: Or just politically and legally convenient?

Sunfire Langer: I think everything should be made available to adults - yes, something could be disgusting, but be public about it and let people find out for themselves, censorring only really helps children
Lawrence Vyceratops: ethics are subjective to personal opinions
Sunfire Langer: can find*

Korel Laloix: Yes, they are.... but what do you do if your job makes you make what are essentially decisions based on ethical judegements.
Korel Laloix: Especially when those judgement are givin to you by an institution?
Sunfire Langer: Ethics aren't purely subjective though, they are shared by communities. Not to be a relativist, but there is an 'objective' standard of ethics

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: I agree.
Lawrence Vyceratops: she'd either have to make the choice herself or consult the bosses.
Korel Laloix: She really does not have to with the collection she manages.
Korel Laloix: But the ones that particularly oversee the internet part do have to deal with it in some locations.

Korel Laloix: I just found it an interesting set of questions.
Korel Laloix: How a lot of professsions and fields have their own ethical questions that might be unique.
Lawrence Vyceratops: of course
Lawrence Vyceratops: unfortunately, most ethics based on money
Korel Laloix: I think that does play a bit part.
Korel Laloix: Being "fair" in the dominant system.
Lawrence Vyceratops: "fair" indeed... ha
Korel Laloix: So if the system is equitable, then "ethical" decisions in that frame are not.
Korel Laloix: is not equitable
Lawrence Vyceratops: obviously
Sunfire Langer: Thanks to Locke, money and possession are enshrined, made holy in Law. But ethics is seperate to law, they meet i some places nd not others

Korel Laloix: It sounds so esy when we say it like that.
Korel Laloix: Going to pop over to the other meeting.
Korel Laloix: Take care all.
Korel Laloix: do na da go hv i
Lawrence Vyceratops: reminds me of a clip i saw of bill maher, or whatever his name, about SOPA
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat.
Lawrence Vyceratops: by, Korel
Visitor 1: hellbye korel
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Lawrence Vyceratops: brb
Visitor 1: k lawrence

--BELL--

Sunfire Langer: Hello Eliza
Visitor 1: hi elixza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Visitor 1e, Sunfire, Lawrence
Eliza Madrigal: Visitor 1e, I don't think we've met...
Eliza Madrigal: has someone introduced the group and let you know about the recording?
Eliza Madrigal: Oops (sorry bell)
Sunfire Langer: Nobody has taken it up, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Sunfire
Visitor 1: no we havwent...
Visitor 1: nice to meet u eliza
Eliza Madrigal: It is important to know that we record the sessions and place them on a public wiki, very nice to meet you too! :)
Eliza Madrigal: however if uncomfortable with that, we can change your name to "visitor" in the log this time
Bertram Jacobus: sorry - i´m only showing a friend sl - so i continue walking around ... ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Hi Bert
Bertram Jacobus: hi there eliza ... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bertram Jacobus: and bye ...
Eliza Madrigal waves
Bertram Jacobus waves back ... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: I've just given you a note about the group Visitor 1e so you can catch up if you like to

Eliza Madrigal: interesting topics today before I came?
Visitor 1: ty .. ys i will read it
Sunfire Langer: A little on the ethics of making hate-speech websites available to view
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Eliza Madrigal: due to sopa/pipa?
Sunfire Langer: So glad it got withdrawn...
Sunfire Langer: Yeehah!
Eliza Madrigal: yes me too
Eliza Madrigal: there is something called ACTA that not many seem aware of...
Eliza Madrigal: and I have to admit I'm not up on the details there
Eliza Madrigal: international, that one
Lawrence Vyceratops: hello. back :)
Sunfire Langer: yes, but making viewing an unnapproved site a crime or offense, thats too much like thought-crime
Eliza Madrigal: wb Lawrence :)
Visitor 1: wb lawrence
Eliza Madrigal: I agree... it is uncomfortable that kids are exposed to so much so early on but we can't close the flow....
Sunfire Langer: I said earlier, censorship only really helps children. It hurts adults
Eliza Madrigal: dangerous for the future really... would be like people turning out lights
Sunfire Langer: or book-burning
Eliza Madrigal: nods

Eliza Madrigal: better to educate critical thinking than to censor
Eliza Madrigal: have you seen that there are interesting classes in Humane Education going on now?
Eliza Madrigal: in SL I mean... they are very informative and interactive

       [ See: Saturday's Solutionary class is today's headline in Metaverse Tribune!http://tiny.cc/5pmws ]

Eliza Madrigal: Hello Visitor 3
Visitor 1: everyone this is my sister Visitor 2

Sunfire Langer: If something is awful, let people see it for themselves - that's respectful, that's democratic, thats productive. Deeming some things 'forbidden' is a backward step, I strongly believe this, Eliza

Visitor 2: hi guys
Eliza Madrigal: Pleasure to meet you
Sunfire Langer: Hello Visitor 2 ! :)
Visitor 2: im rezzing
Visitor 2: i cant see anyone..LOL
Eliza Madrigal: Visitor 2 I'll give you a note about the group in a moment...
Visitor 1: i see u sis
Eliza Madrigal: no worries, you are walking on your sister's shoulders
Visitor 1: lol
Visitor 2: heheeh
Sunfire Langer: you're stood on her head XD
Visitor 1: ahahah ouch !
Eliza Madrigal: it is how we get to know one another in SL, haha
Visitor 1 holds out her hand to sunshine
Eliza Madrigal: Not sure if you got the note, Visitor 2?
Visitor 1: everyone on my list seems to be crashing

Sunfire Langer holds his love's hand 'Lol, is sunshine my new nickname?'
Visitor 1: lol
Visitor 1: u r my sunshine
Eliza Madrigal: people were crashing at the dream workshop I was at before too, so maybe SL has issues today
Visitor 1: u see how tired i am !!! i make up names
Sunfire Langer: when skies are grey etc...
Visitor 1 smiles at sunfire
Visitor 1: oh gosh.. she crashed
Eliza Madrigal: the notecard sent her over the edge I guess

--BELL--

Visitor 1: hhee
Visitor 1: i get her back
Eliza Madrigal: Wb Visitor 2 :)
Visitor 1: wb sis
Visitor 2: lag
Visitor 1: can u jump onto the cusion
Visitor 1: ohhhh done !
Eliza Madrigal: yay
Eliza Madrigal: ::;cheers:::
Visitor 1: ive not been heret oday
Eliza Madrigal: Visitor 2 we record our sessions and place them on a public wiki as a way to keep continuity... do you mind being included in those logs?

Eliza Madrigal: we've been doing that for almost 4 years now...quite a history
Eliza Madrigal: aw
Visitor 1: dam poor Visitor 2
Sunfire Langer: congratulations, my institute died after 18 months :(
Eliza Madrigal: not going on anymore Sun?
Eliza Madrigal: what happened?
Eliza Madrigal: 18 months is pretty strong actually for workshops
Eliza Madrigal: wb Visitor 2, you are persistent! Hope you can stay this time
Visitor 1: ahh shes back
Visitor 2: well 3 time.. i gave up,lol
Visitor 1: honestely
Sunfire Langer: Its just lost all its traffic. It got attacked by a few notorious avatars and bit by bit ground down. Philosophy Island, you might've heard some of the story already, Eliza
Visitor 1: ReD keeps crashign too sis
Eliza Madrigal: actually no I hadn't, sorry to hear that
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't attend philosophy sessions for a long time
Eliza Madrigal: have just started going back to a few lately

Visitor 1: i am sorry but i need to go to rl ! was lovely to meet u eliza and lawrence
Visitor 1: Visitor 2 i will see u tomorrow i hope you manage to stay
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to meet you Visitor 1e, did you make a decision re the recording?
Visitor 1: i will enjoy listening
Visitor 1: so next time ! let me read your note too ... its a bit of a rush tongiht

Eliza Madrigal: hope you'll come again :))
Eliza Madrigal: OK we're here 3 times a day 1,7,1,7...
Eliza Madrigal: though the 1ams don't always have a host
Visitor 1: ohh excelelnt
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: bye, Visitor 1.
Eliza Madrigal: have a lovely night (day?) :)
Visitor 1 wavves

Lawrence Vyceratops: i had run off again.... did i miss the convo? :)
Eliza Madrigal: a little... were discussing the discussion forum pattens of SL
Lawrence Vyceratops: SL basically, to me, seems like an animated chat room :)

Eliza Madrigal: for topical workshops, most of ours have had about a 2 year run... so there does seem some general limit before something wants to change
Eliza Madrigal: dream workshop though, has gone on almost the whole time
Eliza Madrigal: you don't think it matters to have a body here Lawrence?
Sunfire Langer: in these circles very much so, Lawrence
Lawrence Vyceratops: eh. either way
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, al
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)

Eliza Madrigal: Sunfire do you think having a body matters in a discussion?
Eliza Madrigal: (lawrence doesn't feel SL is much different than a chat room boxy)
Lawrence Vyceratops: :)
Sunfire Langer: The avatar tells you a lot about the user - its a visceral insight into how that psychology chooses to present itself. A buxom woman, a werewolf, a cardboard box-bot as examples. Other than that, the only other thing is a kind of body language, where the user places their avatar, which is significant, Eliza

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: I never thought about it in one way as just now... which is that I'd never hang around in an empty chat room...
Eliza Madrigal: but I often come to SL and am contentedly alone

Sunfire Langer: It's a bit like a MMORPG
Eliza Madrigal: nods, except there are a billion games going on not just one...haha
Eliza Madrigal: joking :) I'm not a gamer but I took to SL easily
Sunfire Langer: I heard 'games' in the sense of transactional analysis, there
Eliza Madrigal: yes perhaps... was a little hasty with my joke... I guess for me SL and specifically PaB is somewhere I look at my own thinking...
Eliza Madrigal: often dropping games I didn't know I was playing

Eliza Madrigal: Well nice to see you Sun, and Lawrence (if here) :)), and Boxy ( if here too)
Sunfire Langer: nice to chat, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: yes you too, be well :)
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now
Lawrence Vyceratops: everyone gone