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PlayAsBeing Wiki > Chat Logs > 2012 > 01 > 2012.01.22 08:00 - Guardian Session: Freshly, From Scratch!!

2012.01.22 08:00 - Guardian Session: Freshly, From Scratch!!

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Present for this week's guardian session were: Aphrodite Macbain : Bruce Mowbray : Eliza Madrigal : Eos Amaterasu : Lucinda Lavender : Pema Pera : Xirana Oximoxi : Zen Arado

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hey Eliza.

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Eliza the red! Good day to you

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) now the fun of sitting begins...

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hahah

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) Hi Bruce, Aphrodite :)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): do you have problems sitting Eliza?

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): some days

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): can I give you a cushion?

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe too much coffee

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Pema!

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi Xirana

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi Pema

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Xirana and Zen again

Pema Pera: hi everybody!

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Bruce, Pema, Aph

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi Zen

Zen (zen.arado): H Bruce, Pema, Aph

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, pema, Xir, Zen.

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): We can give a few minutes for folks to arrive :)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): where are you now Pema?

Pema Pera: in Hawaii, for a change, Aph :-)

Pema Pera: (with a not very stable internet connection)

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Eos :))

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): all those balmy winds!

Pema Pera: (rather large lag, so if I don't respond, not to worry :-)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): so far so good. Hi Eos

Eos Amaterasu: Hi gang....

Pema Pera: (also some lines I type don't echo, so I'm not sure whether all I write is received . . . )

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Eos

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I'm glad you are able to be here today Pema, will help for clarity with retreats and perhaps other topics

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): You look different Pema - new t-shirt? new hair?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Good morning, Eos.

Pema Pera: :-)

Zen (zen.arado): Hi Eos

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hawaii may give a new angle of light on Pema

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hmm yes- closer to the Equator

Pema Pera: :-)

Pema Pera humming "put a flower in your hair"

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Boxy is on his way... then I suppose we can begin with thoughts on Ireland

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): "when Irish eyes are smiling"...hummms

Zen (zen.arado): 'I wish I was in Carrickfergus' not :)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): lol

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): It is a wonderful idea, but with so few seeming to be able to go, is it something we want to pick up at another time?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): unless there is some funding contributed

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): the guardian retreats email list has nearly everyone that would be interested, and there has been little activity

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): perhaps it needs more planning to find the right time of year, or?

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Boxy :)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes- it is high season

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi boxy:)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :)

Pema Pera: perhaps we can start by talking about the function of the retreats?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi Boxy

boxy's nose: Bruce gently squeezes boxy's nose

boxy (alfred.kelberry): oh wow - pema's here :)

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): great, Pema

Pema Pera: /me waves at Boxy :)

Pema Pera: i.e. the simple question of why to go to a retreat in the first place?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): My understanding of the retreats is to aid in our practice and to connect on a whole new level with guardians

Zen (zen.arado): lots of variation there in ppl's opinions

Eos Amaterasu: a buddhist would say, to cross to the other shore

Eos Amaterasu: :-)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): where would that be? Ireland?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): or scotland?

Coffee Mug: whispers: Ahh! Fresh Hot Coffee

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I would imagine that everyone has a mixture of reasons

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I suppose if the main purpose is to be together, it dosn't matter where the retreats take place

Zen (zen.arado): to remove daily distractions , to find a quiet place where you can be more intensely

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): true. we can go to an empty high school anywhere

Pema Pera: right now we have at least four different ways to meet, even apart from special activity subgroups in SL: regular PaB sessions; SL retreats; the old-type RL retreats; the newer spontaneous RL meetings like recently in Berlin -- what do they give us, and how do they compare?

Zen (zen.arado): but that is a more zen idea

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I imaging our meditation practice and our perspective on reality might be enhanced if we meet in RL

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It gives a richer experience than sitting at the pavilion

Zen (zen.arado): a main reason for pab retreats seems to be to meet people in the flesh

Pema Pera: of those four, really only the old-type RL retreats require any kind of more serious preparation -- and it seems that interest is waning, so a simple response would be to just drop those for now, unless there is something really different about them -- hence my question of why we want to go to retreats

Aph (aphrodite.macbain) tries to put on her beginners mind

boxy (alfred.kelberry): pema, i think the more important question is why we don't

Pema Pera: PaB is not really about meditation: in SL PaB sessions we chat at least 90% of the time, and the same is true in RL old-style retreats

boxy (alfred.kelberry): since there's the lack of participants

Zen (zen.arado): to me a retreat is just a continuation and intensifying of daily meditation practice

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I remember wondering why we have RL retreats when I first learned about them

Zen (zen.arado): yes

Pema Pera: very very different from, say, Zen retreats or any other Hindu, Buddhist, Daoist retreats

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there seems some myth that there is a lot of meditation at PaB retreats :)

Zen (zen.arado): so pab doesn't really need retreats?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I think there is a curiosity or need to meet face to face

Pema Pera: so given that there is much more interest in Berlin-style meetings than the old-style retreats, it would seem natural to focus on them for a while and see, don't you think?

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but there IS a kind of retreat 'container' or setting... mindset?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): listens to eliza

Pema Pera: and there is no reason not to sprinkle in "meditation" if you want to call it that, in Berlin-style retreats

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi Luci

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that's true

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Luci :)

Eos Amaterasu: there is the just-meeting-each-other in RL aspect, but there's also meeting the practice of whatever it is that we find the PaB attractor to be

Zen (zen.arado): Hi Luci

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello Luci :)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): we had a couple short ones, pema :)

Pema Pera: so yes, ELiza, I agree about the container idea, but a Berlin-style meeting also has a container

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): were they valuable Boxy?

Pema Pera: like other "urban retreats" we've had

boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, very much so

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): how?

Eos Amaterasu: Berlin-style might be close to the urban San francisco and New Orleans retreats

Pema Pera: attending wonderful blues sessions in New Orleans, for example

Eos Amaterasu: je ne regrette rien

Lucinda Lavender: HI all:)

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes :)

Pema Pera: yes, Berlin sounded very similar in spirit, from what I heard

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ahhh that I would love :))

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): isnt that just like having a holiday together?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Hi, Luci!

Eos Amaterasu: a PaB holiday

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Well, even in New Orleans there were times for sessions ... as in SL

Pema Pera: yes, a joyful AND thoughtful holiday :-)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph, oneness with the group... sounds, noises... the presence of us all in the moment for a little while

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): let's call them holidays then

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so in that way there was a continuity between SL and RL

Pema Pera: the word "retreat" probably was not the best choice of words . . . .

Eos Amaterasu: that continuity is one reason for RL retreats

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): makes sense body - it cements the connection among the group

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Boxy

Pema Pera: let's go with "treats"!

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :))))

boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)

Zen (zen.arado): :)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes:-)

Eos Amaterasu: but also PaB could go into that body, RL body....

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ?

Eos Amaterasu: body cementing connection with yourself as well as with group....

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): we can call it 'holidays' but it has the added value to meet with Pabbers, persons we meet very oft to chat here... and to talk about 'being' or also dayly matters...

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i can attest for the image of rigid meditations and strict schedule related to the retreats

Pema Pera: that never was the case, Boxy :)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): then also the silence day

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): silent day is yummy

boxy (alfred.kelberry): tough for me :)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I imagine that would be nice in a rural retreat

Eos Amaterasu: Sum (90-second-pauses)

Pema Pera: schedules were very flexible, meditation was never more than 10% of the time

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes, the flexibility is key... not all retreats had silent days

Eos Amaterasu: sum (variable length pauses)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): hard to be silent in a city

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Not San Francisco, not New Orleans

Zen (zen.arado): they have zen retreats in SF

Eos Amaterasu: :-)

Zen (zen.arado): SF zen center

Zen (zen.arado): city center

boxy (alfred.kelberry): pema, interesting. from all the talks and pictures, i perceived it otherwise.

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): there's a zen centre in Vancouver too

boxy (alfred.kelberry): and, apparently, not me alone

Pema Pera: I can understand, Boxy, for sure!

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Nova Scotia is perhaps more retreat-like in that way Boxy

Eos Amaterasu: Most retreats have 3 or four sessions per day, which are actually much like pavilion sessions

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): nods

Pema Pera: but typically we would talk for an hour, have a 5 minute brief "meditation" -- really extended break

Pema Pera: more like a reality check on the talking we did

Eos Amaterasu: very relaxed compared to most christian, buddhist, zen, etc retreates

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I have to admit that for myself I have envisioned PaB as accommodating need/desire for 'spiritual practice' (not the best word) to some extent as well... so a ruling out of that would feel not right either

Pema Pera: like in regular sessions with 10% silence in the 90-sec breaks every 15 minutes

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think the theme session on the retreat internals is in order :)

Pema Pera: good point !

boxy (alfred.kelberry): "retreats revealed"

Pema Pera: veiled treats?

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): expose'

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): reviled treats?

Eos Amaterasu: discovering your open source

Pema Pera: :-)

Eliza (eliza.madrigal) smiles

Eos Amaterasu: + open sourcing ourselves with each other

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think the location plays a role here too. in that a more isolated one would be seen as meditation-heavy. and also a lot of places you stay at are actual retreat resorts.

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I like the idea of going for long walks together

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes, that's nice:)

Pema Pera: I'm perfectly happy to reconsider everything from scratch, including the name "retreats" and the question what to do during meetings. I think that time has come now, and it is also exciting to go back to our roots with a fresh eye!

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): quietly

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): (the walks)

Pema Pera: with the 4th year celebrating coming up

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)

Pema Pera: and yes, Aph, for sure!

boxy (alfred.kelberry): exciting proposition, pema :)

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes

Pema Pera: we can give ourselves two months to reconsider retreats before our recelebration

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I wonder whether it might be a way to engage more Guardians

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I must go now...nice day to all! :)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): by Xirana

boxy (alfred.kelberry): xiri :)

Pema Pera: /me waves at Xirana

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye Xirana :)

Eos Amaterasu: Caio, xiri

Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye bye :)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we seem to be losing Guardians

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and 'm wondering how we can "renew" our connections

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): review what brings us together

boxy's nose: Aph clicks boxy's nose

Pema Pera: one option would be to go back to the notion of "9 sec" perhaps not so much literally, but the idea behind it: stopping and dropping and opening up

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): where? at a treat Pema?

Pema Pera: how to do that in your life, in a city, while on a walk, etc?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

Pema Pera: how to reconsider your life a few times an hour --- that's really what PaB is about, I think

Pema Pera: and that can be done in a million forms

Pema Pera: in *any* setting

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): so a retreat about 9 second pauses?

Pema Pera: rejuvinate a few times an hour, that's the PaB invitation

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Aph, considering regular sessions at the moment

Pema Pera: more a life around some kind of pauses every hour :)

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and what the 'draw' of PaB is for people, in SL where there are lots of discussion groups and communities 

Eos Amaterasu: PaB in SL, PaB in meetup, PaB in daily life....

 Pema Pera: microcredits in developing countries are to big bank loans what PaB is to organized do-good corporations (from religious institutions to humanist or socialist organizations)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): pema, i think maybe from the beginning we should introduce the idea that "retreat" is friendly and accommodating to both meditation-minded and more secular participants

boxy (alfred.kelberry): this will set the healthy ground

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods

Pema Pera: yes, Boxy

Pema Pera: and changing the name will be a good first step

Pema Pera: fitting for the 4th anniversary

boxy (alfred.kelberry): cause now there's a feeling that less meditative types are excluded

Pema Pera: that's totally wrong, but yes, I understand how that might inadvertently have happened

Eos Amaterasu: word as obstacle

Pema Pera: a "be-in"? hehehe

Zen (zen.arado): can work the other way too though

Eos Amaterasu: that was the idea

Zen (zen.arado): I would tire of talking all day I think

Zen (zen.arado): don't have the stamina for that

Pema Pera: depends on the topic and kind of exchange, in my experience

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes, and 'talking' can be quite different from sharing company

Pema Pera: if thoughtful, slow, considered, it feels very different

Pema Pera: also, during retreats it was half off half on, half of the time in a group, half of the time on walks, etc, alone or in small groups, 2 or 3

Lucinda Lavender: I am feeling the pauses provided is expected, anticipated space...switching gears regularly and getting comfy with that

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It will need some good facilitation I think

Pema Pera: not sure, Aph

Eos Amaterasu: most of the time you're still on your own

Pema Pera: in the 8 retreats I've attended, most of the structure was purely spontaneous

Eliza (eliza.madrigal) has enjoyed every retreat in its own way, though they weren't always 'easy' and surely weren't predictable

Pema Pera: *never* pre organized

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)

Pema Pera: and hardly steered in any way

Eos Amaterasu: in Malta we got lost a lot

Pema Pera: there was always a remarkably spontaneous group intelligence/intuition

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): There was a need in the Vashon retreat for more facilitation

Zen (zen.arado): some prefer structure, some feel a bit lost

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we ended up sitting around and working on our laptops

Eos Amaterasu: to some extent intuitively provide mommy being aspect for puppy beings to play safely]

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): easy to do...

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there is definitely a need/desire for balance...

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I dont think of myself as a puppy being Eos

Eos Amaterasu looks at boxy :-)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nor as the facilitator as mommy

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think for many it may be important to also be a tourist. walk around and explore the place. 

Eos Amaterasu: i think idea is sometimes to help encourage deeper, more personal, maybe more daring, exploration 
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): i just don't understand where the idea came from that these things couldn't happen

Eos Amaterasu: in a relatively safe environments

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that there isn't room for both

Pema Pera: I was neither at the Seattle nor at the Berlin meeting -- Boxy, did anyone feel a need for someone to "facilitate" explicity in Berlin?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): me neither Eliza

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i don't think so, pema

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Berlin was different - it wasnt a retreat

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): each person, as with sessions, 'shows up' and has input into the recipe in a way

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): that's the theory

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): doesn't always work that way

Eos Amaterasu: retreat is word applied to San Francisco and to New Orleans but not to Berlin, but perhaps they were not all that different?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): berlin was different in a sense that no one expected you to enter meditation

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): it was a called a meet up

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): thereby distinguishing it

Eos Amaterasu: nominally

Pema Pera: "meditation" in any conceivable sense of the word NEVER happened in any of the 8 retreats I was part of . . . .
(added later: this was too strong a statement. What I meant was that none of the 8 retreats I was part of could be called a "meditation retreat" in any conceivable sense of the word, since the periods of silence were so few and short, and also because they were not structured as `meditation'. Of course, individuals may well have been able to engage in brief meditations, if they were so inclined, during the short pauses. -- Pema)

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nominally?

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): exactly!

Pema Pera: sitting on a cushion yes

Pema Pera: pausing for 5 or 10 minutes, yes

Pema Pera: as a way of showing respect to the group and reflecting what was said

Lucinda Lavender: I have to go soon...find this discussion very interesting...

Pema Pera: and letting the notions of play and of being settle

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): at Vashon, we sat (or most of us) sat for 10 minutes together

Pema Pera: I'm really glad we have this conversation, I feel there is a lot to be cleared up and communicated!

boxy (alfred.kelberry): we did 10 minutes 2 times as well in berlin

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes, I feel more muddled than ever

boxy (alfred.kelberry): aph :)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): *licks you*

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and there was really positive feedback about those sessions boxy

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we did it once a day in Vashon

boxy's nose: Bruce slowly strokes boxy's wet nose

boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, eliza

Pema Pera: how about spending this coming week thinking about a better word than "retreat" and continuing next Sunday at 8 am SLT, with a new name and ideas for how to spend those new-name meetings?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): for some, 10 minutes is all they can do

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): they indeed don't sound much different than any other sessions in retreats, and actually more formal, no candles in any retreats I attended :)

Pema Pera: freshly, from scratch?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i think expectation might be the key word here

Pema Pera: yes!!

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): are we able to have a scholarship mechanism for meet-ups?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes agreed. I expected more than just playing together

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): how does that work Eliza? scholarships come from Kira, no? 

Pema Pera: the playing itself could deepen into a real sense of Being . . .

 boxy (alfred.kelberry): eliza, i think it's possible for any meeting, if funds are available

Pema Pera: funds could become available, if the goals are laid out clearly

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes as the structure is set now that there is a base budget and a fund that in some cases can be used to help toward costs for someone interested

Pema Pera: the order of things, it seems to me, is to come up with a new structure and then to see how to fund those

Zen (zen.arado): a meetup is really only intended to be a weekend ?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods at Pema

Pema Pera: everything is open, Zen

Zen (zen.arado): so only intended for locals?

Pema Pera: nothing put in stone

Pema Pera: no, anybody who can and wants to come

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I gather most retreats have a structure however

Pema Pera: from the corners of the Earth :)

Pema Pera: no, Aph

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): time to eat, time to talk time to walk time to sleep

Pema Pera: no

Pema Pera: none of the retreats I ever attended

Pema Pera: that was all decided spontaneously on the first day

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): it happened at Vashon and at Halifax

Zen (zen.arado): but short prohibits long travel?

Pema Pera: and adjusted when needed 
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes thats a good point, the first day discussion/meal is when things begin to take shape

Pema Pera: good point, Zen, it probably is a good idea to have longer retreats

Pema Pera: as well

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): who decided?

Pema Pera: the group

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): in Vashon it was decided before we all met

Pema Pera: someone made a suggestion

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Ideally, the "structure" emerges from the variety of energies, spontaneously and flexibly. . .

Pema Pera: others amended

Pema Pera: the group decided

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes, and then each person could see if what they needed was allowed for in that, and ask for what they would prefer

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): hmm

Pema Pera: that never happened in any of the retreats I attended, I believe, Aph

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Bruce you were great about that in Vashon I remember

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): ?

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Vashon?

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Me?

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes, having a personal idea of your own rhythm and needs

Eos Amaterasu: there is usually initial facilitation, as in logistices (like finding a hotel in Berlin)....

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and working to communicate that with the group

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I believe bruce was in Halifax

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes my mistake

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hah

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Halifax

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but the point I was making was that someone who desired longer meditations could make space for those too

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or for walks 

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): np -- yes, Eliza. . . Staying present to the flow - awareness of what's "being" at each moment - - seems required for emergence to happen.... 

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): on their own perhaps

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): not with the group

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): which is fine

Pema Pera: but more importantly than the question of what happened in "retreats" is to come up with a new name "X" and throw it all open and discuss what we might like to do in the future "X" meetings!

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): The literal meaning of "retreat" and "reflection" might also be considered . . .

Pema Pera: shall we do that one week from now?

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): OK :)

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): To "reflect" is to bend back. . . .

Zen (zen.arado): sure

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye

Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Bye! everyone

Pema Pera: yes, Bruce, we should reconsider (hehe: re!) everything

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): bend back into . . . BYE everyone!

Zen (zen.arado): bye all

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Time for Quaker Meeting.

Bruce (bruce.mowbray): All have a beautiful day.

[the meeting dispersed pretty quickly] :)

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2012.01.22 08:00 - Guardian Session: Freshly, From Scratch!!

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