The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

druth Vlodovic, Santoshima Resident and Wol Euler joined me tonight

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Druth
druth Vlodovic: hi steve
stevenaia Michinaga: how are things with you, we have a topic this week if it catches your interest... memory
druth Vlodovic: yeah, I was just trying to remember why I play SL lol
druth Vlodovic: hi san
stevenaia Michinaga: lol, see
Santoshima Resident: hi Druth and stevenaia :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hi San
Santoshima Resident: howdy
stevenaia Michinaga: memory and reality, memory and time, or last night we tried "no memory"
stevenaia Michinaga: harder to wrap your mind around that
druth Vlodovic: "no memory"?
druth Vlodovic: how does that work?
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, not quite sure.. droping memory, observe what is there
druth Vlodovic: ah, memory as noise
stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose mindfulness is no memory
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Wol
Santoshima Resident: { whose little bird-like object? }
Wol Euler: hello san, druth, stevie
stevenaia Michinaga: Boxy
Santoshima Resident: { oh }
stevenaia Michinaga: it;s a penquin
druth Vlodovic: hi wol

--BELL--

Santoshima Resident: hi Wol
stevenaia Michinaga: can you add your thoughts to no memory Wol, you were here :)
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Wol Euler: I think the consensus was that "no memory" meant letting memories flow past you
Wol Euler: like thoughts while meditating
Wol Euler: not to hold on to them
Wol Euler: not to be attached to them
stevenaia Michinaga: watching memory
Santoshima Resident: hmm, that doesn't make sense to me
stevenaia Michinaga: like standing in the wind
Santoshima Resident: having no memory isnt't the same as that
Wol Euler: indeed
Wol Euler: people who truly have no memory are in a bad way, often
Santoshima Resident: yes
Wol Euler: because identity has a lot to do with memory
Wol Euler: (we thought)
Santoshima Resident: sure
Wol Euler: "no memory" is a kind of koan, a trigger for thought and experiment
Wol Euler: like "no time"
Wol Euler: people who say "no time" do still have diaries and calendars and pensions :)
Santoshima Resident: mm
druth Vlodovic: we were talking a while back about how our ancestors affect our identity, that requires buying in to a sort of historical memory
Wol Euler listens.
druth Vlodovic: some people think this is essential, while to others it is irrelevant
stevenaia Michinaga: "buying"?
stevenaia Michinaga: accepting?
Wol Euler nods.
stevenaia Michinaga: wouldn't not doing so deny past memories?
stevenaia Michinaga: which are part of everyone
Wol Euler: could you say that again without the double negative? :)
Santoshima Resident: yeah, please
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: would denying past memories deny a part of your makeup?
Wol Euler: past as in "not mine"?
stevenaia Michinaga: past as in ancestors
Wol Euler smiles.
stevenaia Michinaga: how can they not be yours
Wol Euler: well, if it's true, then I have them and they affect me -- whether or not I believe in it
stevenaia Michinaga: that;s how I feel
Wol Euler: but I really wonder what that means, and how one could detect these ancestral memories
Wol Euler: how to identify them?
stevenaia Michinaga: look in the mirror
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
druth Vlodovic: by feeling the traditions that you absorbed into yourself as a child
stevenaia Michinaga: they look back
Wol Euler: or does it perhaps mean instinct, intuition?
Wol Euler: oh, I see: culture as memory?
Santoshima Resident: genetic makeup as memory
stevenaia Michinaga: nods stories, fairy tales, history
Wol Euler: hmmmmmmm
Wol Euler: well, I suppose if you define "memory" loosely enough :)
stevenaia Michinaga: or broadly enough
Wol Euler nods.
stevenaia Michinaga: collective memory
Wol Euler: sec
Wol Euler: back
stevenaia Michinaga: wb
Wol Euler: ty
Wol Euler: I supose in that sense literature, history, culture … could all becalled "memory"
Wol Euler: but I wonder if doing so doesn't make the word so hugely wide and sloppy as to be almost useless?
Santoshima Resident: [ please excuse me ... work calls }
Wol Euler: if you call that all "memory" then what is "that which I remember and which you do not"?
Wol Euler: by e san, take care
stevenaia Michinaga: bye san
druth Vlodovic: cya san
Santoshima Resident: bye ~ interesting ... see ya
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: memory is partly interpretation as well, not simply facts brought forward
stevenaia Michinaga: I find it amazing that billions of people all over the planet can even communicate and share in that memory (Human Culture)
druth Vlodovic: I was reading an article that suggested that the emotional interpretation is the part that is stored most faithfully
stevenaia Michinaga: in the individual or in the culture
druth Vlodovic: so maybe interpreting the word "memory" too tightly makes it less useful
Wol Euler: what is the benefit of stretching "memory" to include "culture"?
Wol Euler: other than as an analogy?
druth Vlodovic: "the past which still affects us"
Wol Euler: … so why not use hte word "culture" for culture?
druth Vlodovic: it's not all culture
Wol Euler: nor is it all memory :)
stevenaia Michinaga: allows new aslects of where it comes from to enter the definition, beyond the individual, so many things affects memory, wy cant those things be part of memory
druth Vlodovic: I am different from many other people raised similarly to myself
Wol Euler: of coruse
Wol Euler: for instance, you have memories that htey do not
Wol Euler: I do not remember your 7th birthday
druth Vlodovic: but even the memories we share are different in our minds
druth Vlodovic: and will change over time
stevenaia Michinaga: like dreams
Wol Euler: which is diffefrent then, I would say, to culture
Wol Euler: Shakespeare is external to us, and permanent
Wol Euler: your faulty memory of "Macbeth" does not make my memory faulty
Wol Euler: and you could refresh your memory by consulting that external record
stevenaia Michinaga: that is the nice thing about memory, it is rewriteable
stevenaia Michinaga: or refreshab;e
Wol Euler smiles.
druth Vlodovic: "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
Wol Euler: then we could call it "eggplant" instead of "memory"
Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I seem to be out of tune with the spirit of the session
Wol Euler: excuse my pedantry :)
druth Vlodovic: np
Wol Euler: goodnight, I look forward to reading the rest of the discussion :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I love eggplant
druth Vlodovic: aww
stevenaia Michinaga: night WOl
druth Vlodovic: good night wol
druth Vlodovic: and here I was just complaining to someone today how I dislike ambiguity
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe, how do you live with yourself?
druth Vlodovic: continuously :)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: ambiguity is the fuel of exploration
stevenaia Michinaga: is my dress complete, I seem to be seeing white in my apha channels
druth Vlodovic: "nothing is known for sure"
druth Vlodovic: with your dresses i'm never sure of the definition of "complete"
druth Vlodovic: it is relatively PG if that's what you mean
stevenaia Michinaga: laughs, all the transparency appears white to me
stevenaia Michinaga: what you see and what I see are different :)

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, it's fixed for me now
druth Vlodovic: yayy!
druth Vlodovic: speaking of what wol was saying
druth Vlodovic: I was reading a book by terry pratchett a while back, where a character was complaining about books
druth Vlodovic: she was saying that most of them are written by dead people
druth Vlodovic: so that would make reading them necromancy
stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, strange perspective
druth Vlodovic: lol
druth Vlodovic: conflating the reading with interracting with the writer
druth Vlodovic: since, in a way, it is a piece of their memory encased in paper
stevenaia Michinaga: it is something that doesn;t really change, it jsut gets re-interperated
druth Vlodovic: and the re-interpretations are often driven by culture
druth Vlodovic: I'm sure I don't hear a play by shakespeare the same as a contemporary of his would
druth Vlodovic: so even books change with time
stevenaia Michinaga: es, with each now reader
stevenaia Michinaga: new
stevenaia Michinaga: or critic
stevenaia Michinaga: just look at all the books that people wnat to ban
druth Vlodovic: I was watching some retro cartoons on TV
druth Vlodovic: amazing how different they look now
druth Vlodovic: in some ways we're more open, and in some ways we have become rather strickter
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, I neer knew "Mighty Mouse" was all opera sung dialogue until I was much older
stevenaia Michinaga: *never
druth Vlodovic: lol
druth Vlodovic: a sneaky way to introduce culture to the masses
stevenaia Michinaga: very smart
druth Vlodovic: or maybe it is an indication that some things are eternal and we must learn to dislike them?
stevenaia Michinaga: jsut not knowing what opera was in your youth, you miss things like that entirely
druth Vlodovic: but in not knowing you were able to enjoy it
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, and later enjoy it in new ways
druth Vlodovic: if you've learned to like opera :)
druth Vlodovic: I'm exploring an opinion quite opposite to my recent prejudices about art
stevenaia Michinaga: I just learned what is was when I was young w/o a name
stevenaia Michinaga: gets to "naming" things
druth Vlodovic: and giving it a hostory
druth Vlodovic: ah, the difference between "being" and "having an identity"
stevenaia Michinaga: and a new memory
druth Vlodovic: "identity" requires history, but "being" does not
stevenaia Michinaga: nods

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off .... thanks Druth, always a pleasure
stevenaia Michinaga: waves