The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Colds and diet:

Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: Why sitting on the outer ring?
Zen Arado: oh didn't realise
Zen Arado: not much difference
Eliza Madrigal: not much, no :)
Eliza Madrigal: How are things?
Zen Arado: fine ty..a bit tired
Zen Arado: how's the cold?
Eliza Madrigal: lingering actually... have been dealing with health things from a few angles over the last few weeks...
Zen Arado: oh that's too bad
Eliza Madrigal: but have gone back to taking vitamins and supplements as of the last few days... paying more attention, asking 'what is this'
Zen Arado: I used to take a lot of them but I think it was a waste of money
Zen Arado: and they are expensive
Eliza Madrigal: I think some can be helpful, especially if one might be missing things in their diet
Zen Arado: yes maybe
Zen Arado: one of the problems of a vegetarian diet
Zen Arado: but I don't have that problem now
Eliza Madrigal: even non-vegetarian diets, because a lot of our food is poor in nutrients
Eliza Madrigal: due to packaging and convenience
Zen Arado: yes using processed foods isn't good either
Zen Arado: I feel a lot better since I went on a low carb diet
Eliza Madrigal: you are still following that?
Eliza Madrigal: what were the biggest adjustments?
Zen Arado: but I worry about my gallbladder since there is a lot of fat in that diet
Eliza Madrigal: ahhh
Eliza Madrigal: yes... so many chances for imbalance
Zen Arado: giving up potatoes and bread and pasta
Zen Arado: I eat a lot of salad
Zen Arado: so I think I actually get plenty of vitamins
Zen Arado: and fruit
Eliza Madrigal: depending on what is in the salad : )
Zen Arado: I use full cream milk instead of soya

Zen Arado: I just buy salad packs that have lots of lettucerots
Zen Arado: buy
Zen Arado: this voice typing is hopeless sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: : )
Zen Arado: I buy salad packs that have lots of lettuce, carrots, and cabbage
Eliza Madrigal: : )
Eliza Madrigal dons bunny ears
Zen Arado: it is doing that thing where when you try to type it chews up the next letters as well

Zen and nonduality:

Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to give you a notecard about a talk starting, even though I know it isn't a good time for you - maybe you may meet someone who would find it interesting
Zen Arado: okay thank you
Eliza Madrigal: Not sure if you remember Solobill, who is/was a guardian here for a while but hasn't been in SL much at all over the last year.. but he used to host these weekly sutra sessions and they were quite nice
Zen Arado: yes I remember him
Eliza Madrigal: so now a young zen priest is interested in beginning them again
Eliza Madrigal: charming and talkative guy
Zen Arado: I'm not so much into Zen any more
Zen Arado: non-duality perspective is in Zen, but without all the chanting and religious hierarchy etc
Zen Arado: it was really the non-duality bit that I liked
Eliza Madrigal: yes... which is still there...
Zen Arado: yes of course
Zen Arado: I wasn't able to practice Zen any more
Zen Arado: physically
Eliza Madrigal: for myself, I find that I don't have to get rid of anything... as though any tradition I've learned from can be opened up in wider perspectives
Zen Arado: so I guess that helped to make me drift away from it
Eliza Madrigal: you are not sitting anymore Zen?
Zen Arado: I still do meditation everyday
Eliza Madrigal: ah, nods
Zen Arado: but I can't go to retreats any more
Eliza Madrigal: well i've never been on a zen retreat but I appreciate wall gazing practice
Eliza Madrigal: I don't have a tibetan group to practice with right now either but I imbibe texts
Zen Arado: I'm reading Jeff Foster at the moment
Zen Arado: he is a non-duality teacher
Eliza Madrigal: and some practices... and, then non-duality and actually some kabbalah and yoga, hah... guess it seems a bit much when I write it out
Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
Zen Arado: he doesn't say anything different from the rest but I like reading his stuff
Zen Arado: I like it more simple
Eliza Madrigal: have you ever read nisargadatta's descriptions of awakening?
Zen Arado: I don't think there is any such thing as awakening or enlightenment
Zen Arado: I can't remember if I did
Eliza Madrigal: well that's my best angle to describe... but he talked about losing his place... almost becoming baby-like again for a while
Zen Arado: it's just our normal state that we cloud over
Zen Arado: and every book I pick up lately tells me I don't have any choice
Eliza Madrigal: clothed in clouds :)
Eliza Madrigal: and what do you say back to the book? hah
Zen Arado: in fact I don't need to read any more books
Eliza Madrigal: right
Zen Arado: well it makes sense to me
Eliza Madrigal: you don't need to... but you do...
Eliza Madrigal: what is going on with that? what are books filling up?
Zen Arado: I'm just reading for fun now, I'm not seeking enlightenment or anything
Zen Arado: my mind still likes to think about things
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: I can't stop that :-)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: but I know there is no spiritual path, nowhere to get to
Zen Arado: in fact I think it is that searching that takes us further away
Eliza Madrigal: so abiding in no-path?
Zen Arado: abiding in what is
Zen Arado: just a wave on the ocean
Eliza Madrigal: I remember Stim saying something to the effect of 'just leave it alone' ... like, you don't need to pick up the patterns and all that is necessary is to see that
Zen Arado: yeh that sounds like it
Eliza Madrigal: and actually not even seeing that in the usual doing sense of the word

Sutras and scripture:

Zen Arado: no doing just resting
Zen Arado: I was never one for following sutras
Zen Arado: it reminds me of Christians following the Bible
Zen Arado: they used to say 'it isn't biblical'
Eliza Madrigal: ah, but they are so inspiring...
Zen Arado: but those books were written thousands of years ago for a different culture
Eliza Madrigal: well it does depend on 'how' one reads
Eliza Madrigal: a friend and I were talking about prayer a little yesterday... and this is similar I think...
Zen Arado: some things never change I guess, but we have to work out what to do now here in the present I think
Zen Arado: I think you can get yourself into trouble by trying to follow outdated teachings
Eliza Madrigal: that one can pray with a kind of desire and asking for something... 'god come and help "me" be more comfortable and happy'... or, one can kind of hear in a heart way and aspire to "live better"
Zen Arado: and you know the Budda even said that himself in the Kalamas Sutra
Eliza Madrigal: treasure hunting...
Eliza Madrigal: like... don't you love, speaking of non-duality teachings...
Eliza Madrigal: lines like "produce the thought that is nowhere supported" or "mind dwelling nowhere"
Eliza Madrigal: these are peculiar angles
Zen Arado: thoughts just produce themselves I think
Zen Arado: Hi Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: hi! :)
Alfred Kelberry: you fine beautiful people
Eliza Madrigal: :) and quoting Buddha in the sutra is learning from a sutra?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: only 2 of you? no storm again?
Eliza Madrigal: Storm is busy building... wrote this in 99 days
Eliza Madrigal: building and cooking :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh
Alfred Kelberry: ok, then
Zen Arado: the Buddha said a lotof things to different people that almost contradicted themselves because he tried to use means to get his message across to very different people
Alfred Kelberry: spain - france today, btw
Zen Arado: yep :)
Alfred Kelberry: i predict easy win for spain
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: probably boxy
Alfred Kelberry: zen, no wonder there are so many yanas :)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: boxyana
Alfred Kelberry: even pemayana has emerged
Zen Arado: yes, we were just talking about using sutras
Eliza Madrigal: boxyana is the path of puppying around
Zen Arado: and actually in Zen they talk about going more by direct experience
Zen Arado: although they still use sutras too
Alfred Kelberry: like psalms in the bible?
Zen Arado: ha
Eliza Madrigal: se lah
Zen Arado: there is lots of wisdom there
Zen Arado: that is true
Eliza Madrigal: I feel the problem if there is one isn't about learning but about literalism
Alfred Kelberry: zen, i think this is what buddha said initially: go and try things and see what works for you
Zen Arado: yes, but even then it's hard to know what they actually did mean
Zen Arado: so many interpretations through the ages have added their own bias
Alfred Kelberry: yes, like reincarnation :)
Zen Arado: so we need to read Scripture or sutras with caution
Eliza Madrigal: I can dance in David's feet while he shepherds sheep and sings devotion.. feel the sunshine on my face... appreciate that context
Eliza Madrigal: doesn't mean I then only shepherd sheep in the sunshine
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: what feet?
Eliza Madrigal: dancing feet boxy, hah
Alfred Kelberry: i suspect it's from the bible
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: I used to teach about David inunday school
Zen Arado: Sunday
Alfred Kelberry: wow
Zen Arado: David and Goliath
Zen Arado: David and Bathsheba
Alfred Kelberry: unexpected, zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: did you have a felt board, Zen?
Zen Arado: no, but I used to draw little pictures
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: I used chalk and a felt pen

Zen Arado: and I played guitar
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: guitar is good
Alfred Kelberry: i approve
Zen Arado: that was a different me
Alfred Kelberry: guitar or david?
Eliza Madrigal: a different life?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: competition? :)

Changing:

Zen Arado: I was a different person
Alfred Kelberry: me too, 10 years ago
Zen Arado: 25 years ago
Alfred Kelberry: pema would say: i was a different person a moment ago :)
Zen Arado: perhaps there are some traces left :-)
Zen Arado: psychological continuity
Zen Arado: it works slowly
Zen Arado: but we are slowly changing
Zen Arado: yes?
Alfred Kelberry: was this change gradual and unnoticeable or did you force it on yourself?
Eliza Madrigal: subtle bargains... we sort of confirm one another's tories
Eliza Madrigal: *stories
Zen Arado: Sometimes it is gradual but you come to a transition point
Alfred Kelberry: yes, graduation
Zen Arado: so it seems sudden but you were actually working up to it, perhaps unconsciously
Zen Arado: I gradually lost faith in Christianity
Eliza Madrigal: or maybe it was sudden a long time ago but one hasn't caught up yet
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: yeah, hasn't admitted that yet
Zen Arado: that happens
Zen Arado: sometimes we don't want to give up something even though we don't believe in it any more
Zen Arado: I lost a lot of friends when I left the Christian church
Eliza Madrigal: "when I was a child I spake as a child..." but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with that thinking...
Alfred Kelberry: zen, when did you start losing faith?
Zen Arado: maybe when I started studying philosophy :-)
Zen Arado: but then again I wouldn't have studied philosophy if I had been satisfied with the answers that Christianity give me
Alfred Kelberry: zen, if people put religion above friendship - well, so be it
Eliza Madrigal: yes, difficult though
Zen Arado: it isn't that boxy, I stopped going to church and therefore wasn't coming in contact with the people any more
Alfred Kelberry: they do teach to kill babies in the name of god, though. so... no wonder :)
Zen Arado: it's not that they disowned me or anything
Zen Arado: although some churches can be difficult to leave I think
Alfred Kelberry: when did you find buddhism?
Alfred Kelberry: or turn into it for answers
Zen Arado: I got interested in Buddhism through studying personal identity in philosophy
Zen Arado: personal identity is the same as no self in Buddhism
Zen Arado: for pretty similar anyway
Zen Arado: or
Alfred Kelberry: at this point you had cracks in your faith? or was it a turning point?
Zen Arado: ideas evolve in us
Zen Arado: it was a long progression
Eliza Madrigal: not fixed
Zen Arado: not clear-cut
Eliza Madrigal: I 'lost' a dear friend due to her not being able to understand, but later had a dream that we were in the hallway of a school and had different schedules and would meet up later
Zen Arado: yes and maybe you will
Alfred Kelberry: yea... that's tough being brought up in one tradition and then reassess everything
Zen Arado: I lost a friend like that too recently
Zen Arado: but he kept preaching at me
Eliza Madrigal nods... especially if one's whole support system depends on statements of faith
Alfred Kelberry: you have mastered detachment, zen :)
Zen Arado: there has been a great little radio series here by a Scottish bishop who lost his faith
Zen Arado: it's a pity you can't get it
Eliza Madrigal: not podcasted?
Zen Arado: it was called "Faith and doubt"
Zen Arado: I think it was
Eliza Madrigal: I love to hear from people who have gone through these crisis of faith, or dark nights of the soul...
Zen Arado: Richard Holloway was his name
Alfred Kelberry: did church curse him?
Zen Arado: he went through all the philosophers and poets ideas of faith
Zen Arado: I'm not even sure that it is finished yet
Zen Arado: you should look him up
Zen Arado: I'm not sure what the church's reaction was to him boxy
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, how about dark nights of the soul for investment bankers in the fall of 2008? :)
Zen Arado: I missed some of the early programs too
Alfred Kelberry: i'm sure they have stories to tell
Zen Arado: maybe he is still a Christian
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed so Boxy!
Zen Arado: a lot of soul-searching :-)
Zen Arado: I have to go to a French class now
Alfred Kelberry: well, religion... annoys me, in a broad sense :)
Eliza Madrigal: loss of faith in capitalism...
Alfred Kelberry: bon bon, zen
Eliza Madrigal: OK Zen, bye for now
Zen Arado: I claimed the log anyway :-)
Eliza Madrigal: thank you :)
Zen Arado: byee

Capitalsim and socialism:

Eliza Madrigal: any ism or system is faulty... so the only safe ones are the ones in which people know that
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, hmm... like this quote: loss of faith in capitalism...
Eliza Madrigal: unfortunately I think that is a long way off in a general way
Alfred Kelberry: 21 century promises to be very interesting politically and economically speaking :)
Eliza Madrigal: there are the ideals of a system, how it works in theory but then what is done with it... feels discouraging
Eliza Madrigal: like campaign finance reforms in the US.. each fixing has created more loopholes and problems
Alfred Kelberry: this is what happens without skeptics present :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: well.... in the US we are allowed to be skeptical, and many are, and we have supposed free press, but because we think of ourselves this way, I think we don't change that much
Eliza Madrigal: we 'think' we are covering the news and that illusion covers the fact that we aren't
Alfred Kelberry: seeing how you slowly approaching plutocracy, i find it hard to believe :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: we need boxy commentary in the corners of our newscasts
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Eliza Madrigal: doesn't feel so slow, either... that approach
Alfred Kelberry: same old ever since the great depression. we're selling debts around, making money. cool. ooops, we fucked - government to the rescue! ok, saved - fuck off regulations! free trade! yahoo! :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Alfred Kelberry: ha! i don't mind. you can borrow this one :)
Eliza Madrigal: quite the concise summary
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: now we're all hung over and discouraged...
Eliza Madrigal: and things that have been in play for many years, take effect...
Eliza Madrigal: guess it has a parallel to Zen's free will discussion :)
Eliza Madrigal: but I better go... have to shop....
Alfred Kelberry: yes, consumerism first, free will second :)
Eliza Madrigal: well, try to opt out of consummerism in america...
Eliza Madrigal: full time job
Alfred Kelberry: shop well, eliza
Alfred Kelberry: i hope you feel better now
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Boxy... working on that
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hug, wave

Alfred Kelberry: politics :)
Alfred Kelberry: hi, cute girl
Korel Laloix: As in PaB politics or discussions about politics?
Alfred Kelberry: um, specifically, the greed of capitalism
Korel Laloix: Not the greed of socialism?
Alfred Kelberry: no, that's another talk :)
Korel Laloix: At least capitalism greed creates.
Korel Laloix: Any games today?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, creates inequality and crises in its unregulated glory
Korel Laloix: It creates inequality for sure... and good for that.
Korel Laloix: hmm.. the Soviet Unioin was free of crisis and unregulated glory...so... socialism greed has the same problem.
Korel Laloix: lol
Alfred Kelberry: classic american... :)
Korel Laloix: Not really.
Korel Laloix: I would far rather live is this sort of world than that.
Alfred Kelberry: who thinks socialism = soviet union. capitalism = food in the store.
Korel Laloix: Socialism is what the rich and powerful do to the poor and other colored to keep us servile and bent to their will.
Korel Laloix: The poorest places in the US are the most socialized.
Alfred Kelberry: huh?
Korel Laloix: Look at our reservations... fed, housed, doctored.... and the highest drug reates.
Korel Laloix: highest teenage pregnancies, suicides.
Korel Laloix: That is what applied socialism does to people.
Korel Laloix: Muders cultures as well.
Korel Laloix: Socialism is the perfect way to contorl people..
Korel Laloix: It lets you still rule them and make you the despot feel good about yoruself.
Alfred Kelberry: it's called the u.s. political correctness
Alfred Kelberry: provide to the minorities and look good
Korel Laloix: With socialism.. destroying our lives, souls and culture.
Korel Laloix: It is what the elete do to the poor and other colored in this day and age.
Alfred Kelberry: applied socialism is canada, sweden, etc :)
Korel Laloix: As it is politically correct.
Korel Laloix: Exactly.. look at what is happening to native americans in canada.
Korel Laloix: Worse in tsome places than the US.
Korel Laloix: SOme places better.

Korel Laloix: No idea aobut Sweden.
Alfred Kelberry: capitalism on the other hand destroyed so many cultures, i can't even begin to list them :)
Korel Laloix: Do list please.... lol.. of course it has.
Korel Laloix: Any tool can be missused.
Korel Laloix: But not at the rate and with such complete violence as what socialims is doing to my people today.
Korel Laloix: People who have never had to live with it, and under it dont know what it is like.
Korel Laloix: Talke to someone that lived in the old USSR or who lives on a reservation.
Alfred Kelberry: yes... they think canada is full of commies :)
Korel Laloix: Why would you ask that?
Korel Laloix: Canada like the US uses socialism to keep us minorities servile.
Korel Laloix: They dont force it on the majority.
Alfred Kelberry: i don't know much about reservations... what would you propose as a solution?
Korel Laloix: Stop the sould destroying "charity".
Korel Laloix: It always seems to be the priviledge majority people that think that socialism is a good idea....
Korel Laloix: Anyway... for another discussion... on a other day.
Korel Laloix: Off to another chat.
Korel Laloix: Take care.
Korel Laloix: THis is a favorite topic of mine... ciao
Alfred Kelberry: i understand that you see it through the prism of your culture, but social policies are a lot more than safeguarding minorities
Alfred Kelberry: ok, be good :)
Korel Laloix: You are right.. they are about modern day inslavement of minorities.
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Korel Laloix: Ever era of history provides for it.
Korel Laloix: ciao