The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Xirana's black and white paintings:

Zen Arado: Hi Xirana :)
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey the two of you
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Zen!
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Yaku
Zen Arado: no restart today
Zen Arado: yet...
Xirana Oximoxi: at the moment:)
Yakuzza Lethecus: don´t say it too loud, yes :9
Zen Arado: I saw your paintings Xiri
Zen Arado: like the black and white
Xirana Oximoxi: oh Zen! I know!!! thank you very much!!!
Xirana Oximoxi: I sent an IM yesterday to you, but probably you have not received...my comunications is going crazythis days... I receive messages 2 days later
Zen Arado: I got one about your exhibition
Zen Arado: the gallery was a bit hard to find
Zen Arado: your one
Xirana Oximoxi: oh! really? ...but, in the notecard there is a link directly there
Zen Arado: it only took me to the outside of the place
Zen Arado: I had to put it in a browser first
Zen Arado: I think you can put links into a note card if you just drag the link over to the note card
Xirana Oximoxi: yes... I think the first one goes directly to my exhibit
Zen Arado: probably because I had to put it into a browser first
Xirana Oximoxi: I'll check it later:)
Zen Arado: it didn't work so well
Zen Arado: but I found it anyway :-)
Xirana Oximoxi: ok! thanks:)
Zen Arado: I like the ones that had more detail in them
Xirana Oximoxi: :-)
Zen Arado: but they were very loose and abstract
Zen Arado: I'll have to try something with less colour
Xirana Oximoxi: a friend has told me just the opposite...he likes the ones with less details, he has told me "less is more" :-)

Artists and competition:

Zen Arado: re: competition, I don't think artists compete with each other very much do you?
Xirana Oximoxi: meaning the with less are more expressive
Zen Arado: Well, I'd just like to have more things to look at in a painting
Xirana Oximoxi: well... ifor me to compete is nosesne, why shoukld we? each one has different sensibilities, different ways to express,... I respect it
Xirana Oximoxi: nosense*
Zen Arado: exactly
Zen Arado: we all do different things and express different things
Zen Arado: so how do you compare?
Xirana Oximoxi: and that's the most interesting of art for me... all are different
Zen Arado: yes
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Zen Arado: but it's funny, I go to an art club and they all paint in a very similar way
Zen Arado: Hi Boxy ;)
Xirana Oximoxi: it's a little like alll in life related to others...you connect with some better than with others
Alfred Kelberry: thought pema would be here
Zen Arado: oh why?
Xirana Oximoxi: hello boxy! :)
Alfred Kelberry: seen his email
Alfred Kelberry: xiri :)
Xirana Oximoxi: I have not seen
Zen Arado: me either
Xirana Oximoxi: :)

Wol's sad news:

Zen Arado: I saw one from Wol, very sad
Xirana Oximoxi: yes, me too! it's sad news
Alfred Kelberry: yep
Zen Arado: I have a younger sister too

Zen Arado: I have never thought she could die before me but it makes you think
Zen Arado: we were talking about Breughel's 'Icarus' at a meeting a few days ago
Zen Arado: this reminds me of that
Zen Arado: http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth...gel/icarus.jpg
Xirana Oximoxi: in what sense does it remind you?
Zen Arado: well, when these things happen it seems as if everyone else is going about their activities uncaringly
Zen Arado: back in the painting you just see Icarus's legs as he drowns in the bottom right-hand corner
Zen Arado: but everyone else is just going about their normal activities
Zen Arado: totally unaware
Xirana Oximoxi: ahh yes... sorry, now I see
Zen Arado: totally uninterested
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe more than 'uninterested' they are 'unaware'
Zen Arado: ah no, you have to study the painting a little to see it
Zen Arado: yes maybe
Zen Arado: it's funny how attached we are to our little routines:)
Zen Arado: maybe it is making that point
Xirana Oximoxi: yes, we need it.... but some people just also hate it

Back to competition:

Zen Arado: what's happening with the competition?
Zen Arado: With the competition discussion
Xirana Oximoxi: ahh sorry, I have not read the chat logs
Zen Arado: me either :-)
Xirana Oximoxi: that's why you introduced the subject related to art:)
Zen Arado: :-)
Zen Arado: maybe we should have someone summarise the outcome of these discussions
Zen Arado: I'm sure some good ideas, out of them as well
Xirana Oximoxi: I know our society push us ands specially youngs to be competitive...but it brings a lot of unhappyness in my view
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: I'm not very competitive
Xirana Oximoxi: it shoud push us to be 'competent'...not 'competitive'
Zen Arado: but how do we know we are competent?
Zen Arado: We have to compare ourselves with others
Zen Arado: it's all the comparison we do
Xirana Oximoxi: be well prepared, study, show it and others ..if competent, will know (all thelrie) :)
Xirana Oximoxi: theorie*
Zen Arado: maybe we should do less measuring
Zen Arado: if we study something we need to know how well we are doing
Zen Arado: but that doesn't have to be competitive does it?
Zen Arado: But how do we know unless we compared with others?

Xirana Oximoxi: welll...I suppose it is very close...but maybe we can see it differently
Zen Arado: yes, maybe we don't need to know we are doing well or badly?
Zen Arado: Do we?
Xirana Oximoxi: the best would be to know each one capacities, at what one can be at his best.... but, specially in some context, you must simply compete to get a job or to be recognised
Zen Arado: Yes
Xirana Oximoxi: that's how it works...
Zen Arado: it's nice if a doctor has a medical degree when you go to him
Zen Arado: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: yes :)
Xirana Oximoxi: I didn't mean not to do exams to get a degree:)
Yakuzza Lethecus: might create more trust in the decision and if it´s a noncritical sickess even that trust might cause a placebo effect in itself
Zen Arado: yes Yaku
Zen Arado: trust comes into it
Xirana Oximoxi: but, that is not necessarily to compete, but to show you are competent
Zen Arado: he he even the word competent suggests you have competed
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: I just realised
Xirana Oximoxi: yes:) but for me has a subtle different meaning:)....but, you are right
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: in germany we have a free drugstore magazine, and they´re slogen is "read what makes you healthy" but it makes you aware about so many things that could be wrong with you
Zen Arado: yes, like reading a medical dictionary when you have a stomach pain
Zen Arado: it makes you think you have cancer :)
Zen Arado: perhaps competition is just part of survival
Yakuzza Lethecus: you don´t know if it isn´t, can you be sure you don´t -> fear, more money for the medical system
Zen Arado: we have to compete with other species on this planet
Zen Arado: a stomach pain can be a a lot of things I find
Zen Arado: that's why it is so hard to diagnose
Zen Arado: our lives make us naturally compete for resources
Zen Arado: don't they?
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...and in some places only the most strong survived
Zen Arado: countries go to war about that
Xirana Oximoxi: then we come to see, that it's a behaviour of our human nature
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: it seems we can't get away from competing
Zen Arado: our human nature is too selfish
Zen Arado: maybe when we become more transhuman we will be less selfish
Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder how insecurity makes us occupy more ressources since it causes less openness and less sharing
Xirana Oximoxi: you're optimistic:)
Zen Arado: insecurity makes us more protective of ourselves
Zen Arado: if I am competing with you I will not want you to know too much
Zen Arado: about me
Zen Arado: so yes, it makes us less open when we compete with others I think
Zen Arado: free markets are a type of competition
Xirana Oximoxi: yes... if you are open and I know you well, your weak points too, then I can compete and 'destroy' you more easily
Zen Arado: which are supposed to promote growth
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: but more openness means people can help each other better

Xirana Oximoxi: yes and we need each other to be more happy
Xirana Oximoxi: he is stuck:)
Zen Arado: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: making the siesta with us:))
Zen Arado: asleep ;)
Xirana Oximoxi: yes:)
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Zen Arado: wb
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i've just remembered the topic for this week :)
Alfred Kelberry: where is aph? was she presenting it already?
Zen Arado: so what do you think?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am leaving
Yakuzza Lethecus: see you soon
Zen Arado: kk byee Yaku
Xirana Oximoxi: bye Yaku! have a nice day
Alfred Kelberry: yaku avoided competition :)
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: he was collaborating with us :-)
Zen Arado: is that the opposite to competition?
Zen Arado: Collaboration?
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe it can also be a collaboration to compete:)
Zen Arado: Or is non-competing not bothering with what others do?
Zen Arado: collaboration means sharing though
Xirana Oximoxi: competing with a group...like in football:)
Zen Arado: philosophers can collaborate by debating, and that is the kind of competition to prove who is right
Xirana Oximoxi: they are collaborating with a few
Zen Arado: Ah yes
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zen Arado: a team collaboration

Discussing topics:

Alfred Kelberry: btw, i don't think i've attended a talk this week where we discussed competition. it shows how having a theme presenter is important. like you were with h+, zen.
Xirana Oximoxi: yes, it is very important
Zen Arado: well I have been out to where we discussed it
Zen Arado: at two
Zen Arado: I mean
Alfred Kelberry: ah, nice. missed those.
Xirana Oximoxi: some do much better to introduce the subjects to discuss
Zen Arado: the first one was with Aph
Xirana Oximoxi: they prepare well too
Zen Arado: I'm still reading about H+ too
Zen Arado: it is such a vast subject I have hardly touched it
Zen Arado: I have a great book on it where many authors debate the various points
Xirana Oximoxi: well..I think a subject is not 'closed' in a week...if interesting, it can be reopened:)
Zen Arado: it would be better if a lot of people read the book first
Zen Arado: you have to do that before you can talk much about it
Alfred Kelberry: that's a lot to ask, zen :)
Xirana Oximoxi: ah yes, if not, you come to listen, not to discuss...like me:)
Alfred Kelberry: an short article maybe
Zen Arado: but a short article doesn't do it justice
Alfred Kelberry: then it's a bad article :)
Zen Arado: I will only presented some quotes from the first article in the book
Zen Arado: and there are many angles to it
Alfred Kelberry: i believe any complex phenomena can be explained plainly for a 6 years old
Xirana Oximoxi: yes, not easy to resume
Zen Arado: but I am used to reading books and long articles
Zen Arado: you can do a summary, but you can't really talk in depth before you, all the points
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe it can be explained, boxy,...but to discuss you need to know more...
Zen Arado: cover
Zen Arado: ( so many words sound like comma when you voice type drat)
Zen Arado: I had to write an 18,000 word dissertation one time
Zen Arado: and that didn't really cover the topic
Zen Arado: and I don't waffle very much
Zen Arado: they don't let you do that in philosophy
Xirana Oximoxi: I have to prepare a 40.000 words work now:)... not easy for me,...by luck it's in Catalan :))
Zen Arado: I'll bet you have to do a lot of reading too Xirana
Xirana Oximoxi: about two Catalan writers
Alfred Kelberry: xiri, i agree. one has to have an idea of what is being discussed. and a short article in our kind of venue should be sufficient. we're not a pro philosophy circle :)
Zen Arado: you get used to getting the main points reading fast
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...but the subject is related to literatur, much easier for me than philosophy
Zen Arado: who are they ?
Zen Arado: the writers I mean
Xirana Oximoxi: Mercè Rodoreda and Joan Sales
Zen Arado: ok
Zen Arado: I've only heard of Lorca
Zen Arado: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i heard of none :)

Xirana Oximoxi: http://www.escriptors.cat/autors/rod...hp?id_sec=1803
Zen Arado: thanks Xiri
Alfred Kelberry: but i know torres, iniesta, and pique :)
Zen Arado: ha ha
Zen Arado: England got through
Xirana Oximoxi: http://www.escriptors.cat/autors/sal...hp?id_sec=2194
Xirana Oximoxi: haha boxy:))
Alfred Kelberry: xiri, are those spanish names?
Xirana Oximoxi: now you can no more say you have not heard about them:)
Xirana Oximoxi: Catalan
Zen Arado: true ;)
Alfred Kelberry: i mean the football players
Xirana Oximoxi: ahh :)
Zen Arado: torres is something to do with bulls?
Xirana Oximoxi: I think the only one catalan is piqué :)
Zen Arado: toreador
Xirana Oximoxi: but I am not sure:)
Alfred Kelberry: xiri, ok, you can root for him then :) he's cute
Xirana Oximoxi: he is with Shakira:)
Xirana Oximoxi: no way:))
Zen Arado: Torres hasn't been playing too well in England
Zen Arado: he plays for Chelsea
Alfred Kelberry: shakira? the u.s. singer?
Xirana Oximoxi: piqué was in an English team...but came back to Barça
Xirana Oximoxi: yes:)
Alfred Kelberry: wow
Xirana Oximoxi: the us singer:)
Alfred Kelberry: what a horrible taste
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: haha
Xirana Oximoxi: I know I know...you prefer the Cruz sisters:)
Alfred Kelberry: he should have picked a fine catalan lady! like xiri ;)
Zen Arado: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: well...he is quite more young:)...too much energy for me:)
Zen Arado: a toy boy ? :)
Zen Arado: he would have plenty of money anyway
Xirana Oximoxi: you mean he is a 'toy boy'?
Alfred Kelberry: you can always send him to work in the garden or walk the dogs when he tires you :)
Xirana Oximoxi: oh yes... he has no money problems at all:)
Zen Arado: he probably isn't very intelligent
Alfred Kelberry: who cares. he's cute :)
Zen Arado: he wouldn't be able to talk about literature
Zen Arado: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: why not Zen?...I don't know him, but my impression is that he's quite normal:)
Zen Arado: but who knows, maybe we get a bad impression of footballers
Zen Arado: we only see their physical prowess
Xirana Oximoxi: ahh..in that sense I have no idea.. Guardiola, the 'master' of the group until now, was a good prepared man, in literatur too
Alfred Kelberry: heard this name
Xirana Oximoxi: he is interested in poeptry and other cultural matters too
Alfred Kelberry: wait, he's catalan
Xirana Oximoxi: yes:) he is:)
Zen Arado: footballers retire early anyway so they have plenty of time to develop cultural interests
Alfred Kelberry: 41 - an old man by football standards :)
Zen Arado: most retire before 40
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: late thirties is old even
Xirana Oximoxi: yes!and usually speak a lot of languages... Guardiola can speak, English, French, Italina, Portiguese, Catalan, Spanish....
Zen Arado: wow
Zen Arado: I feel so bad I can only speak one language
Zen Arado: and a little French
Xirana Oximoxi: he has played in some of this countries and he is clever, but I recognise, he is the unusual prototype:))
Alfred Kelberry: i wish i knew german :/
Xirana Oximoxi: we atre learning a lot here Zen, and your French is every time better!! :)
Zen Arado: I am using Duolingo now
Zen Arado: I just got accepted this week
Zen Arado: it seems very good
Xirana Oximoxi: oh! you must be 'accepted'?
Zen Arado: it's not about the standard it's about it being available
Alfred Kelberry: i think they're in beta now
Zen Arado: I'm only using the beta version too
Xirana Oximoxi: I will read about it:)
Zen Arado: just duolingo.com
Xirana Oximoxi: i must go now! have a nice day Zen and boxy! :)
Zen Arado: kk me too
Zen Arado: thanks for coming
Xirana Oximoxi: thank you for this nice talk:)
Alfred Kelberry: be good folks
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye :)
Alfred Kelberry: compete well!
Zen Arado: byee
Zen Arado: or collaborate :)
Alfred Kelberry: be the best, put down the peer!