2012.06.09 13:00 - Motion brings stillness again.

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

Can we have memories that are both passionate and accurate?

Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Kori.
Korel Laloix: What you up to today?
Bruce Mowbray: Mostly just trying to stay cool, and you?
Bruce Mowbray: I've only been here once all week. . .
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Me too!
Bruce Mowbray: Love your shirt, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce, Hi Korel
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Aphrodite Macbain: I've just been talking to Stevenaia
Bruce Mowbray: I was just about to say that I think passion . . .
Bruce Mowbray: Oh?
Aphrodite Macbain: His father just died. 82 in his sleep
Bruce Mowbray: Oh my.
Aphrodite Macbain: Just yesterday
Bruce Mowbray: Difficult time.
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes and his baby niece just died too~how awful
Bruce Mowbray: Oh no.
Bruce Mowbray: How is Steve handling all of this?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hard to know what to do
Korel Laloix: Ouch.
Aphrodite Macbain: Just dealing with it like anyone might.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes. . .
Aphrodite Macbain: He's gone for a RL walk
Bruce Mowbray: That is the best medicine, I've found.
Korel Laloix: Motion brings stillness again.
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. alone or with someone
Bruce Mowbray:  . . . or with my trusty companion, Bear.
Aphrodite Macbain smiles at Korel and nods
Aphrodite Macbain: ah - with a dog would be wonderful
Aphrodite Macbain: No one to have to make conversation with
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Bear's a wonderful dog and a wonderful companion.
Aphrodite Macbain: Cats just don't cut it in the compassion department
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: Disagree.
Aphrodite Macbain: tho they do like to cuddle
Korel Laloix: Cats are far more empathetic.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I was going to say that I felt passion gets a bad rap . . . when it comes to memory.
Aphrodite Macbain: wb Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ty!
Aphrodite Macbain: What do you mean?
Aphrodite Macbain: We remember the bad passions?
Bruce Mowbray: Well, everyone from Buddha to Kant to Descartes to Ken McLeod says that passion (especially when it is reactive) clouds memory. . .
Bruce Mowbray: and therefore we can't trust it.
Bruce Mowbray: I say passion enables us to remember....
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh - do you mean it clouds it when we are feeling passionate?
Aphrodite Macbain: or do we forget passionate moments?
Bruce Mowbray: I mean they say passion "pollutes" thought so we can't trust memory to be accurate.
Bruce Mowbray: This is also true in courts of law, of course.
Aphrodite Macbain: I usually remember most times that I have felt passionate - I remember it because it is associated with a strong emotion
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: Strong emotions also get a bad rap.
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh I see. We are not objective when we are passionate
Bruce Mowbray: Tell me honestly, then...
Aphrodite Macbain: They can distort I suppose
Bruce Mowbray: Would either of you choose to give up your emotions?
Bruce Mowbray: or your passions?
Aphrodite Macbain: And for those who experience some form of trauma, they can hide the memory
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed.
Aphrodite Macbain: No but I would like to control them more
Bruce Mowbray: So, here's my question. ..
Bruce Mowbray: Seeing as how it's still "memory" week...
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: How can we maintain a passionate outlook --
Bruce Mowbray: in our memory --
Bruce Mowbray: and still have accurate memories?
 Bruce Mowbray: Is that possible to do without other people or mechanical devices reminding us?
Aphrodite Macbain: What is a passionate outlook?
Bruce Mowbray: Feelings...
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps intense ones.
Bruce Mowbray: which help us to remember...
Aphrodite Macbain: rather than objective thoughts?
Bruce Mowbray: I don't think there is such a thing as "objective" thoughts...
Bruce Mowbray: except maybe inside computers....
Bruce Mowbray: or robots.
Aphrodite Macbain: In that case there is always passion
Bruce Mowbray: Surveillance cameras, too, perhaps.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, there is always passion... to some degree.
Bruce Mowbray: And what I'm saying is, that when it comes to memory...
Bruce Mowbray: passion could be a very good thing.
Bruce Mowbray: "Good" meaning:  without passion -- no memory.
Aphrodite Macbain: To be able to remember by re-experiencing the pain or the pleasure as well as the actions and words?
Bruce Mowbray: and without memory -- Who are we?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: There it is!
Aphrodite Macbain: re-experiencing
Bruce Mowbray: so, rephrasing my question:
Bruce Mowbray: Can we re-experience passionate memories accurately?
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't know
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: bye bye Kori.
Aphrodite Macbain: I can remember having happy or painful experiences but I don't need to re-experience them to remember them accurately
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps, with all the mechanical memory devices we have now,
Bruce Mowbray: it is not really necessary for us to remember accurately....
Aphrodite Macbain: You mean grocery lists?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, writing . . .
Bruce Mowbray: and recorders...
Bruce Mowbray: and video cameras...
Bruce Mowbray: and photography.
Bruce Mowbray: etc etc etc.
Aphrodite Macbain: I am aware that it is important to learn lessons by remembering accurately
Bruce Mowbray: Shouldn't these devices be freeing us up?
Aphrodite Macbain: so that you don't do something again
Bruce Mowbray: Well, wouldn't holding on to the memories of passion help to do that?
Bruce Mowbray: Remember that old memory trick: The Memory Palace?
Aphrodite Macbain: Remembering how painful a relationship was would or should make us more wary of relationships
Qt Core: Hi all.
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Qt.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Qt
Aphrodite Macbain: But I jump into the next one very easily.
Bruce Mowbray: We've been discussing the role of passion in memory, Qt.
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe it is because I can't or won't recreate how painful it was.
Bruce Mowbray: Aph, is remembering the pain -- apparently passionate pain -- of former relationships.
Aphrodite Macbain: deep sadness

--BELL--

Qt Core: hi korel
Bruce Mowbray: Sounds to me like you're willing to risk future pain . . . in order to open up possibilities for future passion, of a "good" sort.
Aphrodite Macbain: fear, anger, loss - why would I want to remember or re-experience those feelings?
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Kori.
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Bruce Mowbray finds it interesting that most of us remember the pain -- rather than the joy....
Bruce Mowbray: probably a survival benefit that we do.
Alfred Kelberry: someone made a new t-shirt :)
Qt Core: i have almost no memory of the few months before and almost an entire year after my father's death
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Boxy!
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh I remember the joy too
Qt Core: so i think passion/feeling may have something to do about memories
Aphrodite Macbain: But I wonder whether we learn anything from past memories
Alfred Kelberry: qt, interesting
Bruce Mowbray: Please say more, Qt.
Bruce Mowbray: if you wish to.
Qt Core: that period was pretty hard, starting with being 13 ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.... I imagine so.
Aphrodite Macbain: a volatile impressionable age
Bruce Mowbray wonders what else we could possibly learn from . . except memory.
Qt Core: then the short and devastating cancer, discovered just the week after my father retired from work... and i thought i was going to have him around more
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed.... Very rough for a young man.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods, for anyone for that matter
Bruce Mowbray: Just when you needed him most, too.
Aphrodite Macbain: Did you get to know him much when you were younger?
Alfred Kelberry: qt, I'm sorry to hear that and thank you for sharing
Bruce Mowbray: So, here is an example of passionate memory that has clouded other memories. . . .
Qt Core: then at that age there is a big change in schooling too... and who had the willpower to study and then even my sister had a big health issue so she had to follow here more than me
Qt Core: all in all i have only a few brief memories of school, where life was almost regular compared to the home one
Aphrodite Macbain: It must have been hard for your mother
Bruce Mowbray: When my father died, I was a sophomore in college . . . and I simply "quit" everything for a while..... because nothing else seemed important. . .
Aphrodite Macbain: trying to keep things together
Bruce Mowbray: But, would we give up those passionate memories . . . painful though they are?
Aphrodite Macbain: No, but perhaps they are easier to look at from a distance.
Aphrodite Macbain: Especially the bad ones
Qt Core: i don't think as in the end they shaped us, even more than let say a happy day on the beach
Bruce Mowbray: I say that the passion is what gives our lives depth . . . and meaning.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: apparently our passions have evolved in order for us to survive
Bruce Mowbray: So, my second question is/was, how can we be accurate in our passionate memories . . . (the good and the bad)?
Bruce Mowbray: For sure, Aph.
Bruce Mowbray: Especially our "bad" memories...
Aphrodite Macbain: the more subtle ones evolved later
Bruce Mowbray: . . . because they are about "avoidance" of life-threatening situations.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- flight, flight or freeze
Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
Bruce Mowbray: That's brain-stem level stuff, really.
Bruce Mowbray: that evolved eventually into Ego, Superego and Id...
Bruce Mowbray: Parent, Adult and Child ego states...
Bruce Mowbray: Love, Power, and Freedom motivations.
Aphrodite Macbain: Textbook Freud?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: and post-Freud....
Aphrodite Macbain: You forgot Eros and Thanatos!
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, love and death weave their ways into the whole picture eventually.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: the 2 main drives
Bruce Mowbray: and how great is that!
Bruce Mowbray: although a lot of logicians would disagree...
Bruce Mowbray: and a lot of spiritual teachers would also disagree.
Aphrodite Macbain: how so?

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, yes... doesn't make it hurt less though, i imagine
Bruce Mowbray: Do we suffer because we experience pain . . . or because in our memories we cling to that painful experience?
Alfred Kelberry: think it's related
Bruce Mowbray: I'll repeat my question: Is it possible to have passionate memories --- and have them be accurate . . . and without inducing suffering that blurs the picture?
Qt Core: why they would be painful, that is if they are happy ones ?
Bruce Mowbray: Either happy or sad.... passionate.... but can they also be accurate?
Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, i think if you have enough passion in the present, it's easier to overcome the passion of the past
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh!
Bruce Mowbray: Canine wisdom!
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I think we avoid remembering what is painful and replay memories that are pleasurable. Surely
Bruce Mowbray: Not me, Aph.
Bruce Mowbray: I continually re-play that bad stuff.
Aphrodite Macbain: I am not sure whether that is an unconscious or conscious decision
Bruce Mowbray: I wish it were different... but that's what I do.
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps that's a form of self-hate?  Self-punishment?
Aphrodite Macbain: ah - Interesting. I avoid the bad memories unless they are very recent
Bruce Mowbray: I have learned to imagine a trash can with burning material inside it -- and when the bad memories come, I throw them into that trash can...
Bruce Mowbray: But . . . I'm not really trying to avoid them... just not to be overwhelmed by them.
Aphrodite Macbain: and then I do play with them to make sense of them, to normalize them, to squeeze out the juice from them
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Their passionate intensity is very important to me.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: Squeeze out to juice and let it run down your cheeks....
Bruce Mowbray: (as tears?)
Bruce Mowbray: The memories are REAL and present experience, it seems to me.
Bruce Mowbray: They are one of the ways we affirm Reality....
Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, the theory says that we do it subconsciously. Trash our bad memories.
Bruce Mowbray: I think healthy people do that, Boxy....
Alfred Kelberry: unless they're too intense and then we need help
Bruce Mowbray: Not sure about the rest of us, though.
Aphrodite Macbain: wonder what roles dreams play in all this
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: Dreams protect the sleeper - enabling sleep.
Alfred Kelberry: yes... hardly anything can prepare a young man for war, for example
Bruce Mowbray: for one thing.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Boxy.
Bruce Mowbray: That price is very very high.
Korel Laloix: Or young woman.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, or a young woman, either.
Alfred Kelberry: thank you, Kori :)
Aphrodite Macbain: a source of great trauma that causes ptsd
Korel Laloix smiles
Korel Laloix: This is very interesting to me.
Bruce Mowbray: But surely we would not want young people to become like robots... and then go out there and fight....
Bruce Mowbray: Me too, Kori.
Bruce Mowbray: Please say more.
Aphrodite Macbain: Especially when it goes against everything they believe in like "thou shalt not kill"
Bruce Mowbray: I think they must actually believe in killing -- otherwise why would they go through all that training. . . and put themselves in a position to be professional killers?
Bruce Mowbray: (but that is my Quaker side coming out, of course!)
Aphrodite Macbain: they are taught to think of the enemy as not-human
Bruce Mowbray: Right.
Aphrodite Macbain: gooks, kikes, etc
Bruce Mowbray: So, again, perhaps the passions are trying to play an important role here.
Bruce Mowbray: Passions are energy.
Bruce Mowbray: They fuel memories.
Bruce Mowbray: They fuel present actions.
Bruce Mowbray: They affirm the reality of both.
Bruce Mowbray sits on hands and stops preaching.
Aphrodite Macbain: give spice to life
Bruce Mowbray: o yeah!
Aphrodite Macbain: and teach us lessons
Aphrodite Macbain: that we often refuse to learn :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Or perhaps hold us back from learning?
Aphrodite Macbain: ??
Aphrodite Macbain: ??
Aphrodite Macbain: how so?
Bruce Mowbray: Cause blinders to form...
Bruce Mowbray: or filters to form....
Bruce Mowbray: prejudices to form....  blocking the learning.
Aphrodite Macbain: Passion causes blinders to form?
Bruce Mowbray: Sure!
Bruce Mowbray: Love is blind. . . !?
Aphrodite Macbain: builds in fears that are not useful

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Hate is also blind....
Aphrodite Macbain: and vice versa
Aphrodite Macbain: whispers goodbye
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Aph (whispers).
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)bye
Qt Core: bye Aphro
Alfred Kelberry: Aph's jeans keep memories of past paintings :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: "Thanks for the memories, jeans."
Bruce Mowbray: Is Aph hiding behind a bush somewhere?
Qt Core: just got back the memory about my first and only pair of jeans ;-) i hated it so much i never got another in my life ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pila!
Bruce Mowbray: Bye again, Aph.
Alfred Kelberry: qt, why hated? :)
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Alfred Kelberry: Pila the wise man! :)
Alfred Kelberry: Nice of you to join us
Pila Mulligan: Alf the wise box
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Qt Core: they were part of the uniform of the first summer camp i was sent and they were so hard, like cardboard
Qt Core: hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: traumatic jeans deprivation -- sounds tough QT
Alfred Kelberry: qt, ah. yea, must had been made of the same material as goldminer's pants :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, most of us guys have been there.... In fact, I've seen rituals in which jeans are made wearable. . . dragging them through mud, etc...
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: I think Aph's jeans may have been through similar rituals.
Alfred Kelberry: i don't have some dramatic recollections of my first jeans :)
Bruce Mowbray ponders passionate memories once again.
Alfred Kelberry: qt, so, you never bought a pair since then?
Qt Core: and over the years it became something making me different from other people, you know, I'm not part of "them", I'm me
Alfred Kelberry: non-conformist :)
Bruce Mowbray: Did the other kids at camp make fun of you for having jeans that we're not broken in yet?
Alfred Kelberry: kudos to that, qt. it takes some balls :)
Qt Core: no, never had one, at least not one of the classic blue ones
Bruce Mowbray: The classic blue ones are too expensive anyway.
Qt Core: they were all new, the uniform was camp provided
Bruce Mowbray: Oh. . . camp uniform...
Bruce Mowbray: So all the other kids also were having this experience.
Qt Core: a white t-shirt and blue jeans, the kind that come up to your chest, don't know the English name
Alfred Kelberry: ah, those are neat :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bib overalls?
Qt Core: something comfortable and fresh to be on a beach, right ?
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. . . sounds good!
Qt Core: maybe shorts would have been better
Alfred Kelberry: qt in the camp: http://www.grayandholtclothing.com/v/vspfiles/photos/MOV180-2T.jpg
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I'd surely think that shorts would have been more comfortable -- and also appropriate for camp.
Qt Core: yeah, just two/three feet shorter :-)
Bruce Mowbray: OMG! That looks like an Ohio farmer!
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: I have neighbors who dress like that all the time.
Bruce Mowbray: and I mean ALL the time.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, you all enjoy the fine company and conversation...
Santoshima Resident: lift off?
Bruce Mowbray: It's time for a walk down passionate-memory lane with my trusty companion Bear Dog.
Alfred Kelberry: qt, interesting the details you find out many years later - re: Ohio farmers :)
Santoshima Resident: bye Bruce
Qt Core: :)
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, enjoy it
Pila Mulligan: bye Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now!
Qt Core: bye Bruce (maybe I'll end up there)

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: Pila san, would you like to enlighten us with a story or two? :)
Pila Mulligan: :) boxy, what kind of story?
Alfred Kelberry: anything... :)
Alfred Kelberry: what comes first
Pila Mulligan: how about you go first?
Alfred Kelberry: no, we listen :)
Pila Mulligan: Korel, have you heard the Saynday stories?
Pila Mulligan: they usually begin "As Saynday was coming along ...."
Alfred Kelberry: are those akin to Nasradin stories?
Pila Mulligan: yes, but from a Native American tradition
Alfred Kelberry: ah
Pila Mulligan: he is a trickster figure
Korel Laloix: Sorry... was AFK.
Pila Mulligan: :) wb
Korel Laloix: No, been to lots of story sessions at a few powwows and have not heard that one.
Pila Mulligan: http://www.amazon.com/Sayndays-People-Kiowa-Indians-Stories/dp/0803251254
Korel Laloix: But it may not be a think for all tribes.
Pila Mulligan: Kiowa winter stories
Pila Mulligan: "The stories all relate to Saynday, the main character in the book, and his involvement with natural events on the southern plains. The title comes from Hunt's admonition to "always tell my stories in the winter, when the outdoors work is finished."
Pila Mulligan: How about uncle Remus, boxy, are you familiar with the stories of Br'er Rabbit?
 Pila Mulligan: African tradition
Alfred Kelberry: no
Pila Mulligan: they are out of style now I think
Alfred Kelberry: you know a lot of stories, Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: they are about Br'er Fox and Br'er Rabbit
Pila Mulligan: Br'er = brother
Alfred Kelberry: ah
Pila Mulligan: Fr'er Fox is always trying to catch Br'er Rabbit
Alfred Kelberry: meep meep!
Pila Mulligan: one of my favorites is the tar baby story
Pila Mulligan: it is almost iconic, as the term 'tar baby' is often used metaphorically to refer to a trap
Alfred Kelberry: you tar a baby and use it as a bait on tiger? :)
Pila Mulligan: Br'er Fox constructs a doll out of a lump of tar and dresses it with some clothes. When Br'er Rabbit comes along he addresses the tar "baby" amiably, but receives no response. Br'er Rabbit becomes offended by what he perceives as the Tar Baby's lack of manners, punches it, and in doing so becomes stuck. The more Br'er Rabbit punches and kicks the tar "baby" out of rage, the worse he gets stuck. Now that Br'er Rabbit is stuck, Br'er Fox ponders how to dispose of him.
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_baby
Pila Mulligan: The helpless but cunning Br'er Rabbit pleads, "but do please, Br'er Fox, don't fling me in dat brier-patch," prompting Fox to do exactly that. As rabbits are at home in thickets, the resourceful Br'er Rabbit escapes. Using the phrases "but do please, Br'er Fox, don't fling me in dat brier-patch" and "tar baby" to refer to the idea of "a problem that gets worse the more one struggles against it" became part of the wider culture of the United States in the mid-20th century
Alfred Kelberry: oh wait, I've seen a cartoon like that
Pila Mulligan: it is an often told story
Pila Mulligan: The story was originally published in Harper's Weekly by Robert Roosevelt; years later Joel Chandler Harris wrote of the tar baby in his Uncle Remus stories. A similar tale from African folklore in West Africa has the trickster Anansi in the role of Br'er Rabbit.
Alfred Kelberry: who would have thought it's of an African origin
Alfred Kelberry: when were feathers added? :)

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: mr pila :)
Pila Mulligan: sorry , crashed
Pila Mulligan needs to go now
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Korel, QT and boxy
Alfred Kelberry: i find it rather amazing how a guy from the middle of the pacific ocean is sitting next to me in the circle :)
Qt Core: bye Pila
Pila Mulligan: :) bye for now
Alfred Kelberry: be well, pila
Korel Laloix: Hea
Qt Core: that's SL magic ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: yea
Alfred Kelberry: oh well. guess the meeting is adjourned.
Qt Core: yes, time to go for me too
Alfred Kelberry: *pokes kori*
Qt Core: bye Alfred, Korel
Alfred Kelberry: thanks, qt
Alfred Kelberry: I'm off as well. bye!