2012.06.10 13:00 - Transhumanism -preliminary investigations

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: We're first again!
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers!
Bruce Mowbray: Early birds, and all that.
Aphrodite Macbain: yummy worms
Aphrodite Macbain: Were you at a lecture or with your Friends?
Bruce Mowbray: I was at Seth's session -- He spoke about "purity."
Bruce Mowbray: It was, as usual, very good.
Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting
Bruce Mowbray: Fascinating metaphors.
Aphrodite Macbain: What did he say about the concept?
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: That being true to your own integrity is what matters.
Bruce Mowbray: Not to sell out to any zombies that may come along ....
Aphrodite Macbain: nods. Takes courage and self confidence to do that!
Bruce Mowbray: Next week (Sunday) he'll be talking about transhumanism -- I suggested the topic.
Aphrodite Macbain: Great. It will be good to compare discussions
Bruce Mowbray: I should be "loaded" by then.
Aphrodite Macbain: I see an angel hanging in the sky - Forder Vorder!
Bruce Mowbray: really!?
Bruce Mowbray: Oh! Hi, Vorder!
Aphrodite Macbain: Now Bruce is flying with the angel!
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it's my transhumanistic powers, you see.
Aphrodite Macbain: You and the robin and Vorder!
Bruce Mowbray: The robin flies a lot better than I do, actually.
Bruce Mowbray: Zen is on his way.
Aphrodite Macbain: he tweets better too
Aphrodite Macbain: Join us Vorder
Bruce Mowbray: I'm more of a woofer than a tweeter, actually.
Aphrodite Macbain: laughs.  Hi Zen
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, do fly down and join us, Vorder.
Aphrodite Macbain: glad you came
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zen.
Vorder Forder: good evening
Zen Arado: Hi Bruce, Aph, Vorder
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Vorder and Zen.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Vorder
Vorder Forder: hope you are all well
Vorder Forder: it´s 20:08 on my side and sunshine (8:08 pm)
Vorder Forder: and it will be sunshine tonight
Aphrodite Macbain: what side is that?
Vorder Forder: 66° north..)
Zen Arado: where's that?
Vorder Forder: Iceland
Bruce Mowbray: Oh my!
Zen Arado: Ah okay
Aphrodite Macbain: oh. cool
Vorder Forder: best time of the year
Bruce Mowbray: Sun all night long?
Vorder Forder: around 3:30 sunset and about 5.30 sunrise
Aphrodite Macbain: Land of the midnight sun
Bruce Mowbray: Might as well be all night, then.
Zen Arado: two hour night
Bruce Mowbray: That would also make for some LONG winter nights.
Vorder Forder: it´s not dark during that time
Aphrodite Macbain: That's probably why you are wearing sunglasses
Vorder Forder: yes right..)
Aphrodite Macbain: very long Bruce
Vorder Forder: yes winter is the oppo.....dark and long
Vorder Forder: and where are you guys from?
Bruce Mowbray: Ohio -- USA.
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you live in Rekjavik (sorry about spelling)
Vorder Forder: yes I live in Reykjavik..)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) thanks
Vorder Forder: often been to usa but never to Ohio
Zen Arado: I live in N.Ireland
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess Zen is the closest to you in Northern Ireland
Bruce Mowbray: I heard in the news (yesterday?) about a huge worm-like creature in one of your lakes, Vorder.
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm  in Vancouver
Zen Arado: it gets dark around 10.30 here
Vorder Forder: then you are my uncel Zen
Vorder Forder: ..)
Aphrodite Macbain: worm like creature - a giant nematode?
Bruce Mowbray: They said it was the Icelandic version of Nessie.
Vorder Forder: yes I have heard about the worm...but I think they are only trying to make a new tourist trap
Aphrodite Macbain: They actually saw it?
Bruce Mowbray: One guy claims to have videoed it.
Vorder Forder: they got it on tape
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I saw the tape.
Bruce Mowbray: Highly suspicious, though.
Vorder Forder: yes you can see on YouTube
Aphrodite Macbain: almost everything can be manipulated to appear real
--BELL--
Vorder Forder: and after they found out about the view, some business people had an idea of trying to make it a bigger thing to find the worm and I am sure they will find a channel to the sea
Aphrodite Macbain: Things can be made to appear how we want them to be. Thanks to technology
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OmyyHyya64
Bruce Mowbray: Speaking of technology . . .
Aphrodite Macbain: We were going to attempt to talk about how technology might affect humans to the point when it allows us to transcend our human form completely.
Zen Arado: we do so much of this already
Aphrodite Macbain: If this were possible, what would the world be like?
Zen Arado: maybe it's one of those questions about where you draw the line
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Aphrodite Macbain: who decides?
Zen Arado: yes that's the other problem
Zen Arado: it's as if technology just decides for us
Aphrodite Macbain: or has a very strong power over us anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: But there are societies that reject this technology or have no  means to acquire it
Zen Arado: how much should we control life?
Zen Arado: Yes like the Amish?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Zen Arado: Hi Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: Is their life any better?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bleu

Bleu Oleander: hiya :)
Aphrodite Macbain: We are discussing transhumanism and its advantage/disadvantages
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bleu

Bruce Mowbray: We already identify ourselves globally -- and connect instantaneously . . . So, we've transcended physical limitations already to a great degree.
Zen Arado: but they seemed stuck at a certain level of technology
Bruce Mowbray looks for Amish outfit.
 

Technophobia

Zen Arado: actually being in second life seems scary to some people or strange anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: In some ways I feel I have transcended myself already. I can be two avatars of myself on the same screen; each with a very different personality

Bleu Oleander: :) Aph
Vorder Forder: the first telephone made people worried about the future
Zen Arado: yes... I remember reading about how scary the telephone was
Zen Arado: and indigenous people being scared of white men taking photos of them

Zen Arado: they thought they would lose their soul
Bleu Oleander: or end up on FB
Bleu Oleander: :)
Zen Arado: that's really scary :-)
Bleu Oleander: mmhmm
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, it is true people have been fearful of technology or the opposite- have viewed technology as a solution to their problems

 Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Bleu Oleander: hi Wol
Wol Euler: evening all
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Wol
Wol Euler grins.
 

Vorder Forder: is second life making our word better?
Aphrodite Macbain: In some ways, it is; I have more friends and have easy access to them
Zen Arado: only for people who use it
Bruce Mowbray: As I "understand" it, transhumanism has to do with replacing physical parts of ourselves. . .
Zen Arado: it seems to be a spectrum
Vorder Forder: perhaps nother topic
Zen Arado: but the fear is that it is speeding up
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- that has always been a fear though - then we adapt.
Aphrodite Macbain: remember Bionic man-?
Aphrodite Macbain: It is now normal for people to have new hearts, limbs, organs
Zen Arado: how far do we go with transplants?
Zen Arado: What about a brain transplant?
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose when they try and transplant a brain!
Aphrodite Macbain: snap!
Zen Arado: :-)
 

Bruce Mowbray: I think that the point the Amish make is that our "adapting" has done harm to who we truly are . . .
Aphrodite Macbain: who we are… hmmm... who are we Bruce?
Aphrodite Macbain: what stays the same?
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps it won't be necessary to replace the brain physically -- since we've already done that pretty much in other ways.
Aphrodite Macbain: How Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: TV, computer communications... etc etc etc.
Bleu Oleander: google
Bruce Mowbray: oh yeah.
Bleu Oleander: iphones
Vorder Forder: all the free newspapers
Zen Arado: Kurzweil thinks we will be able to upload our brain patterns onto the web someday
Aphrodite Macbain: they haven't replaced the brain - but have aided the function of the brain -memory for instance
Bruce Mowbray: Like, last week we discussed memory -- and all the devices that enable us to remember (but it's really not US who is doing that remembering) -- It is our devices.
Zen Arado: they seem to be tampering with brain functions though
Bleu Oleander: drugs
Aphrodite Macbain: but our brain USES those devices for its own ends
Bleu Oleander: coffee
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Bleu Oleander: :))
Aphrodite Macbain: my favourite
Bruce Mowbray: Did someone say coffee?
Zen Arado: the boundary between us and machines seems to be disappearing
Zen Arado: perhaps this use of technology is what distinguishes us from all the other animals though?
Zen Arado: We are tool using creatures
Aphrodite Macbain: Animals use tools too
Bleu Oleander: dolphins can use a keyboard
Zen Arado: yes but just a little compared to us
Bruce Mowbray: Language is also "tool" --
Zen Arado: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: but it is not a technology Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmmm. . . .
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: I think much of our new technology are tools to expand our power and strength. They add to rather than take away our brain power
Aphrodite Macbain: sorry. sshh
 

Bleu Oleander: interesting lists here: http://lifeboat.com/ex/transhumanist.technologies
Zen Arado: :-)
Bleu Oleander: http://lifeboat.com/ex/cybernetic.up...ckground=white
Bleu Oleander: immortality :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I feel we try and move from state to state without really knowing why we do so.
Aphrodite Macbain: It is like travelling around the world - to different places-but you are still there
Aphrodite Macbain: wherever you go
Aphrodite Macbain: what changes? Are we just responding to boredom?
 

Bleu Oleander: hiya boxy
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Boxy.
Alfred Kelberry: woly girl :)
Zen Arado: some of it seems far out but think what someone coming from 100 years ago would think of us
Alfred Kelberry: bleu, checkmate :)
Aphrodite Macbain: What do others think? Would boxy change if we gave him a hip replacement?
Bleu Oleander: :) boxy
Zen Arado: some people report personality changes when they get a liver transplant
Aphrodite Macbain: oh?
Alfred Kelberry: aph, what?
Aphrodite Macbain: they get cranky ‘cause it hurts?
Bleu Oleander: some people report personality changes when they get up each day :)
Wol Euler: that may be reasonable to expect, as it would alter their body chemistry and thus mood
Alfred Kelberry: oops, i'm inside you, aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Huh?
Zen Arado: a new organ would have different genes

Aphrodite Macbain: Zen - I wonder how that works... (New organ different genes)
Zen Arado: I don't know Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- body chemistry has a lot to do with mood change
Aphrodite Macbain: Get out Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: already :)
Zen Arado: I'm wondering lately I long I would want to live
Zen Arado: if they could keep you healthy living long would be okay

Aphrodite Macbain: not if the quality of life were miserable- like being kept alive artificially
Alfred Kelberry: if it's a great liver, one may start drinking more :)
Bruce Mowbray: So, there seems to be transhumanism that involves mechanical devices -- and also h+ that involves chemistry, genetics, telecommunications. . .
Zen Arado: but a lot of it seems to be about replacing the biology
Aphrodite Macbain: right Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: and Zen
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, when parts break down. . . or wear out.
Zen Arado: when do we stop being human?

Bleu Oleander: what does it mean to be "human"?

Bleu Oleander: isn't "human" a category/name we give ourselves?

Aphrodite Macbain: yes- we do the naming Bleu

Zen Arado: They start to treat you like an old car
Zen Arado: replacing parts
Aphrodite Macbain: at what point do we stop is the question I think
Zen Arado: but that point seems to move
Aphrodite Macbain: of course we have been replaced completely a number of times over our lifetime
Aphrodite Macbain: Our cells keep regenerating
Zen Arado: good point Aph
Zen Arado: yes

Alfred Kelberry: i think the answer may be in cancer research. How to keep cells renewing themselves indefinitely and keep it under control.
  

Cloning

 Aphrodite Macbain: Then there is the whole concept of Dolly
Bruce Mowbray: coning.
Zen Arado: cloning
Aphrodite Macbain: clonng
Bruce Mowbray: cloning*
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Zen Arado: we are cloning already :-)
Alfred Kelberry: i'd like to clone woly
Wol Euler laughs.
Aphrodite Macbain: hehe
Alfred Kelberry: more beauty to the world
Bleu Oleander: easy to do in sl
Aphrodite Macbain: we do need more Wollies in the world
 

 Immortality: Growing older and older gracefully

 Bleu Oleander: Aubrey de Grey's work is pretty interesting
Zen Arado: yes he is interested in anti ageing
Wol Euler: yes, he made a TED talk about immortality
Wol Euler: fascinating
Bleu Oleander: he did several salons for us
Wol Euler: oh cool
Aphrodite Macbain: yikes. that sounds dangerous
Bleu Oleander: part of his research is in AZ
Aphrodite Macbain: AZ?
Bleu Oleander: Arizona
Alfred Kelberry: woly, what's his recipe?
Aphrodite Macbain: ok
Aphrodite Macbain: and why?
Wol Euler: at the moment it's just ideas, theories
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Iw0H1OCek4jDxA
Alfred Kelberry: eh
Alfred Kelberry: he'd better hurry up
Bleu Oleander: good book "Ending Aging"
Wol Euler: but the gist of it is that we may achieve practical immortality by dealing with the aspects of ageing that harm us
Wol Euler: "we may solve what kills 200 year olds before we have any 200 year olds"
Wol Euler: and so on, progressively
Bleu Oleander: of course accidents may and will happen
Aphrodite Macbain: does that mean would die at a very old age or does it mean we would look like a one year old when we die?
Wol Euler: the former
Bleu Oleander: stay healthy longer;  not die from aging
Bruce Mowbray recalls "The Curious Life of Benjamin Button."
Aphrodite Macbain: I would hate to live to 200
Alfred Kelberry: we'll look like avs in sl indefinitely
Wol Euler: though it's actually a good question, aph
Aphrodite Macbain: I am having a hard time being the age I am!
Zen Arado: of course we need to find a way to feed the population we already have
Zen Arado: which we don't at the moment
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess it would mean adjusting the DNA to affect the aging chromosome, no?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, there will be fierce competition for this end to aging stuff.
Alfred Kelberry: Zen, we do
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: it's distribution that is broken
Zen Arado: well we don't seem to employ the methods
Aphrodite Macbain: So then society would invent new ways to control the population of the world
Aphrodite Macbain: we are 7 billion now- how do we keep it there?
Bruce Mowbray is doing his part to "keep it there."
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: I imagine draconian measures
Zen Arado: me too :-)
Zen Arado: no children
Aphrodite Macbain: or creating sky boxes to put the extra people!
Bruce Mowbray: Instead of thinking of things as curses, perhaps we should start thinking of them as opportunities.
Aphrodite Macbain: who among us wants to live beyond 100 yrs?
Zen Arado: if people started to live far longer they would also naturally accumulate more wealth and power
Bruce Mowbray: not moi!
Aphrodite Macbain: or not, Zen
Bleu Oleander: why not if you feel good and are healthy?
Zen Arado: but if you were 100 years old and healthy you might change your mind
Zen Arado: yes
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: Why would I want more wealth and power?
Bruce Mowbray: It's not in my genetic 'card.'
Bleu Oleander: who said wealth and power?

Aphrodite Macbain: Zen did
Zen Arado: aubrey de grey makes this point
Zen Arado: me
Aphrodite Macbain: which point?
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Zen Arado: well if you stayed healthy you would become wiser and more educated and all those years of earning money
Zen Arado: the money would accumulate
Bleu Oleander: not necessarily
Zen Arado: but even now, most wealth is in the hands of the older generation

Bruce Mowbray ponders "wise old" folks, and doesn't know many who turned out that way.
Wol Euler: just saw an appropriate TED talk title: "will our kids be a different species" :) http://www.ted.com/talks/juan_enriqu...t_species.html
Zen Arado: the present generation will die younger than us- it seems
Bruce Mowbray: A TED talk a day keeps the cobwebs away.
Wol Euler grins.
Aphrodite Macbain: there is a small percentage of people on the earth with wealth and power.
Alfred Kelberry: woly, kids as in the immediate generation?
Aphrodite Macbain: I would imagine that we first need to help people who are dying of poverty and starvation
Alfred Kelberry: i'd like to genetically engineer my kid
Zen Arado: but human nature doesn't seem to work that way Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: what way Zen?
Zen Arado: we don't have those kind of priorities
Zen Arado: priorities that say we should start with the underdeveloped countries
Aphrodite Macbain: But I am arguing for them.
Bruce Mowbray: This reminds me of the decision to go to the moon (in the early 60's) -- and many folks said we had more important uses for all that money and expertise....
Zen Arado: oh yes
Alfred Kelberry: the main priority is expansion of free market
Aphrodite Macbain: It seems a very first world selfish attitude to want a longer life so one can be (more) rich and powerful
Zen Arado: I agree
Vorder Forder: man will develop as much as the gap between man and ape is today man to develop as much as the gap between man and ape is today
Zen Arado: that is one of the questions
Bruce Mowbray: What about love and freedom?
Aphrodite Macbain: whose priority Alf?
Bruce Mowbray: Could h+ also enable them?
Zen Arado: they always used to talk about a "trickle down effect"
Aphrodite Macbain: ha!
Zen Arado: trouble is that it is only a trickle
Aphrodite Macbain: it trickles sideways and up
Wol Euler: ((six minutes to meditation with Bertram))
Alfred Kelberry: aph, liberals in the western world
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Wol
Aphrodite Macbain: Depends on who you mean by liberals Alf
Aphrodite Macbain: Here in Canada Liberals are moving further to the right
Alfred Kelberry: these days, most of them are neo-liberals :)
Bruce Mowbray: Everything changes. Everything.
Alfred Kelberry: aph, yes, due to the u.s. influence
Bleu Oleander: more labels ... ugh
Aphrodite Macbain: You mean all those people in the Sudan and Angola?
Alfred Kelberry: soon enough Canada will start deregulation of stuff
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Bleu - these labels are so old and useless now. We need new labels!
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Aphrodite Macbain: It has Boxy, It has, and we hate it
Aphrodite Macbain: grins at Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: Whatever the labels are pinned to will change.
Bleu Oleander: got to go .... take care everyone :)
Zen Arado: I've never heard transhumanism being discussed politically
Alfred Kelberry: i still don't get it how the current govt came to power in Canada
Bruce Mowbray: me too.
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye bye Bleuu
Bleu Oleander: bye bye
Bruce Mowbray: and thanks everyone!
Wol Euler: bye bleu
Wol Euler: take care
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks everyone. We have just begun the conversation...
Wol Euler: bye all, I'm off to join Berti
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Aphrodite Macbain: hugs and kisses
Zen Arado: me too byee
Alfred Kelberry: poof
Vorder Forder: thank you all