2012.06.16 13:00 - Re-hashing the week's theme - Transhumanism

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Kori.
Korel Laloix: osiyo
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Korel Laloix: Guess I need to change.
Bruce Mowbray: why?
Bruce Mowbray: We're all changing all the time, no?
Korel Laloix: Can't float in jean... smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Ahh!
Bruce Mowbray: That looks fine!
Korel Laloix: This is more like it.
Korel Laloix: Beachy feel.
Bruce Mowbray looks for swimming trunks.
Korel Laloix: I have a bikini you can have... smiles
Bruce Mowbray: I'm fine -- but thanks!
Korel Laloix: Might even match your swan.
Korel Laloix: no.. not swan.
Korel Laloix: What that bird called?
Bruce Mowbray: Flamingo?
Korel Laloix: yes... smiles
Korel Laloix: The glasses are nice.
Korel Laloix: For you and the Flamingo
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks. They match the flamingo's.
Korel Laloix grins

Bruce Mowbray: I saw that she was wearing them, so I put on my own.
Korel Laloix: Fair enough.
Bruce Mowbray: Have you participated at all in this week's discussions about Transhumanism, Kori?
Korel Laloix: Not at all.
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Korel Laloix: Was on a trip Sunday through Thursday.
Korel Laloix: And been busy at work since.
Korel Laloix: Any big point?
Bruce Mowbray: I've just read through all of the chat logs and didn't see your name, so I thought I'd ask.
Bruce Mowbray: Lots of "big points," actually.
Korel Laloix: Do tell, please.
Bruce Mowbray: I made a list.
Bruce Mowbray: well, it's a LONG list!
Korel Laloix: I have lots of time.
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that folks are most concerned about being out of control of the direction that Transhumanism might take..
Bruce Mowbray: Thinking that the direction will be determined by the technology,
Korel Laloix: No school.. my summer class was canceled... but will be in next summer term.. so no homework.
Bruce Mowbray: rather than by wise choice.
Bruce Mowbray: Yayyyy! NO HOMEWORK!!!
Korel Laloix: Are technology and wisdom mutually exclusive?
Bruce Mowbray: Zen Arado: it's as if technology just decides for us.   Aphrodite Macbain: or has a very strong power over us anyway.   Zen: How much should we control life?
Korel Laloix: It is a good point.
Korel Laloix: Was sad to miss last weeks topic as well.
Bruce Mowbray: Someone made a point about modern medicine --
Bruce Mowbray: that it is driven by the technology....
Korel Laloix: What point was that?
Bruce Mowbray: that prolonging life at any cost is the "ethic"
Korel Laloix: I disagree with that.
Bruce Mowbray: me too, of course!
Korel Laloix: It is not driven by tech.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh?
Korel Laloix: It is driven by lawyers.
Bruce Mowbray: Had any MRI's recently?
Bruce Mowbray: well, of course, the lawyers.
Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha!
Korel Laloix: About two years ago.
Korel Laloix: I am serious.
Korel Laloix: Lawyers control western medicine.
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, my brother was a workmen's compensation lawyer for thirty years...
Bruce Mowbray: so I do understand your point.
Bruce Mowbray: But perhaps technology also controls the lawyers.
Korel Laloix: I intend to do medical research for a living one day.
Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful!
Korel Laloix: And a huge part of what my job will be will be managing legal risks.
Korel Laloix: Not figuring out what works.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Korel Laloix: Or how to save lives.
Bruce Mowbray: That's great. . .
Bruce Mowbray: But will your own work be controlled by the technology available?
Korel Laloix: But how to help a small section of people live better..... and not get sued by everyone else.
Korel Laloix: No.. tech is a tool.
Bruce Mowbray: I have a close friend who is an emergency room doctor.
Korel Laloix: Good research design controls the tech.. not the reverse.
Bruce Mowbray: He stresses to me over and over that all medicine today is "defensive."
Korel Laloix: Very demanding job.
Korel Laloix: Without a doubt.
Korel Laloix: One of the reasons I live simply...
Bruce Mowbray: I have been sent to 73 different medical appointments. . .
Bruce Mowbray: in the past year.
Korel Laloix: I am not going to care any liability insurance.
Korel Laloix: Ouch.
Bruce Mowbray: And my friend says that most of these are because the docs don't want me to sue them for missing something that tests could have revealed.
Korel Laloix: That sounds painful just from the scheduling point of view.
Bruce Mowbray: I understand their predicament.
Bruce Mowbray: which will only get worse as the technology improves.
Bruce Mowbray: So, that's why I say that the technology may be in control of the directions of the "Transhumanism" movement.
Korel Laloix: Yes.. I dated an MD for a bit... she got out of the business and went to medical fraud investigation because half of her income was going to mal practice insurance.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yeah.
Korel Laloix: Still not sure what Transhumanism is.
Bruce Mowbray: I couldn't stand that.
Bruce Mowbray: Well. Apparently is it basically the idea that through using technology. . .
Bruce Mowbray: . . . we can extend virtually any aspect of our humanity.
Bruce Mowbray: prolong our lives.
Korel Laloix: Sure.. I will agree to that.
Bruce Mowbray: . . . put our brain patterns into digitized form for eternity.
Bruce Mowbray: . . . overcome physical challenges.
Bruce Mowbray: etc etc etc.
Korel Laloix: Eventually.. maybe.. but I doubt though one.
Korel Laloix: But we will see.
Bruce Mowbray: What do you doubt, Kori?
Korel Laloix: I have no issues with using tech to improve our lives.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: That we will be able to digitize our minds.
Bruce Mowbray: You don't?
Bruce Mowbray: opps silence now....
Korel Laloix: Maybe our memories.
Bruce Mowbray: Zen Arado: "The most radical aspect of transhumanism is the scenario that humans will be able to transport the content of their brains, their minds, to a nonbiological entity and thereby achieve immortality…They will live out on the Web, projecting bodies whenever they need or want them, including virtual bodies in diverse realms of virtual reality, holographically projected bodies, foglet-projected bodies, and physical bodies comprising nanobot swarms and other forms of nanotechnology…'
Bruce Mowbray: Zen Arado: I'm not sure where the computer ends and 'we' begin Zen Arado: or vice versa
Bruce Mowbray: To me, this is pathetic.
Korel Laloix: But I don't think we will be able to digitize our thought processes...
Korel Laloix: Reading.
Bruce Mowbray: Here we are, selfishly destroying the planet . . .
Bruce Mowbray: . . . and at the same time scheming for our own immortality.
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Boxy.
Korel Laloix: osiyo box.
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Alfred Kelberry: aww... kori girl :)
Korel Laloix: I think that we will be able to digitize all of our physical being into he future...
Bruce Mowbray: Take off your cloths and join us, Boxy!
Korel Laloix: But not our spiritual being.
Alfred Kelberry: i'm already naked :)
Bruce Mowbray: oh.

Korel Laloix: The biology is the least important thing about us.
Bruce Mowbray listens (reads) what Kori has said.
Alfred Kelberry: least important?
Bruce Mowbray: biology, least important?
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Korel Laloix: Our spirit... or soul... our relationships.... those are the things that really make us human.
Korel Laloix: Those parts tech will never be able to capture.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I agree, of course, and that's what worries me.
Bruce Mowbray: Those cannot be digitized.
Korel Laloix: Yes... if you agree with me on anything... you should be worried... smiles
Bruce Mowbray: So, when the only reality left is the digitized one. . . .
Korel Laloix: And this brings a big point to me... if you separate your thoughts from your soul... you are in trouble.. as well as those around you.
Bruce Mowbray: I totally agree with that.
Bruce Mowbray: So, I am imagining an apocalyptic world in which computers (being the more adaptive and stronger players) have taken over....
Korel Laloix: Like hose silly Matrix movies.
Bruce Mowbray: . . . and humans with their souls are running from cactus to cactus to preserve themselves.
Korel Laloix: cactus?
Bruce Mowbray: Well, it is a pretty bleak world.
Bruce Mowbray recalls Mad Max.
Korel Laloix: Mad Max?
Korel Laloix is looking it up
Bruce Mowbray: Mel Gibson movies.
Bruce Mowbray: Not worth mentioning, actually.
Bruce Mowbray: The Singularity.
Bruce Mowbray: Alfred Kelberry: "Singularity is a point in the future (often set at or around 2030 A.D.) beyond which overwhelming technical changes (especially the development of superhuman artificial intelligence) make reliable predictions impossible"
Korel Laloix: Sounds dreadful.
Korel Laloix: Erin would have liked it though.
Bruce Mowbray: The Singularity is actually the point at which computers become "smarter" than humans.
Korel Laloix: lol..
Bruce Mowbray: Are capable of reasoning better than humans.
Korel Laloix: From a lot of points of view.. that is already true.
Bruce Mowbray: Consider Darwinian evolution.
Korel Laloix: Well.. being able to make choices without emotion..... could be a good thing.
Bruce Mowbray: Are the computers already in control, then?
Korel Laloix: OR a complete disaster.
Bruce Mowbray wonders why Boxy is so quiet.
Korel Laloix: But making decisions solely based on emotion is also horrible.
Bruce Mowbray: You were speaking of "soul" earlier, Kori.
Korel Laloix: Yes.
Bruce Mowbray: How about making decisions based on "soul"?
Bruce Mowbray: I think that many throughout history have done exactly that.,
Korel Laloix: I think that is a better option than emotion or logic.
Korel Laloix: But you really need all three.
Bruce Mowbray: kk. . .
Bruce Mowbray: Cool.
Bruce Mowbray: The three virtues outlined in Stephen Cave's book:

 "Immortality: Identifying with others; focusing on the present; and developing a grateful attitude."

Bruce Mowbray: (given by Bleu, I think).
Korel Laloix: I recently had a good chat with Rafi about how I let my emotions make some poor choices for me.
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Korel Laloix: The first two are flawed to me.
Bruce Mowbray: Was that a good conversation for you?
Korel Laloix: I just had a nice long chat with Raft about some personal stuff.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I am happy for you on that one.
Korel Laloix: And a point came up that in some places.. I have some serious blinders on and tend to make choices based on emotion.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: And I need to get passed that.
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps one of the strong arguments for "Transhumanist" computers taking over our decision-making might be that they can do it better than we can -- BECAUSE of that emotional component.
Korel Laloix: Disagree.
Bruce Mowbray: Many psychologists have said that the problem of death is highly motivational in our "reasoning."
Korel Laloix: If you do the logical thing all the time, you will be a sociopath.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I can imagine sociopathic computers....
Korel Laloix: And we can mimic that behavior for sure.
Bruce Mowbray: Eos Amaterasu: "In 2005, in a moving address at Stanford University after receiving surgery for pancreatic cancer, he [Steve Jobs] reflected on his own mortality, urging his audience: 'Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life.' (Source) Eos Amaterasu: 'Death is very likely the single best invention of life'
Korel Laloix: Just look at some politicians.
Bruce Mowbray: All I have to look at is myself to see sociopathic behavior. 
Korel Laloix: That is really an overplayed idea though.
Bruce Mowbray: Really?
Bruce Mowbray listens to Kori very carefully.
Korel Laloix: This morning I lay in bed with a cup of coffee and crossword puzzle.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Korel Laloix: I did no good for anyone.
Korel Laloix: And it was a perfect moment.
Bruce Mowbray: You did good for yourself!
Korel Laloix: The cat was on my chest.
Bruce Mowbray: As a hermit, I have many such moments.
Korel Laloix: I only had a slight hangover.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Korel Laloix: You have to take time to do nothing sometimes.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes!
Bruce Mowbray: That is one of the options that time offers us.
Korel Laloix: I like the idea of using computers to examine data to inform decisions.
Bruce Mowbray recommends gin -- it gives less of a hangover - or none at all.
Korel Laloix: But when you let computers make decisions for you... you are in trouble.
Korel Laloix: Gin?
Bruce Mowbray: he he.
Korel Laloix: Tequila is the way to go for sure.
Bruce Mowbray: AHHH!
Korel Laloix: I was so drunk last night...
Bruce Mowbray: I jhave never drunki Taquilla.
Bruce Mowbray: even though my typing looks like I have.
Korel Laloix: brb
Bruce Mowbray: But computers don't drink, do they?
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: Eos: a question Transhumanists need to ask themselves is, who is setting my goals and purposes and intentions?
Bruce Mowbray: stevenaia Michinaga: ponders picking my own locks vs picking another's
Bruce Mowbray: Eos Amaterasu: but the interesting thing, re Transhumanism, is the sense of "hacking" our own reality
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, San!
Korel Laloix: Back in a bit.
Bruce Mowbray: np, Kori.
Santoshima Resident: hello -  just passing through, getting ready to yak about Samkhya
Korel Laloix: Darn RL.
Bruce Mowbray: Would that be at the I Ching session?
Santoshima Resident: nice outfit, Bruce!
Santoshima Resident: indeed, I Ching
Bruce Mowbray: I will also be there.
Santoshima Resident: maybe I'll sit in a tube for a moment and re-group
Bruce Mowbray: but I will have to change my outfit first.
Santoshima Resident: nah, come as you are :)
Bruce Mowbray ponders regrouping in a tube.
Santoshima Resident: Boxy, does the tube work for your cuboid form?
Santoshima Resident: i need to test something in chat
Santoshima Resident: test
Bruce Mowbray: cool, np, San.
Santoshima Resident: ok, works
Bruce Mowbray: good! I think.
Santoshima Resident: this tube doesn't have the spin that yours does
Bruce Mowbray: Now you've got it.
Santoshima Resident: yeah, better
Santoshima Resident: what have you been talking about
Bruce Mowbray: No swimming suit?
Bruce Mowbray: We've been rehashing the concepts of Transhumanism.
Bruce Mowbray: And I have been bringing up themes that have been discussed all week,
Santoshima Resident: i see
Bruce Mowbray: I can give you a notecard of the whole dialogue if you want it.
Santoshima Resident: okay
Santoshima Resident: no rush, though
Bruce Mowbray: but it will take a couple of minutes to prepare it.
Bruce Mowbray: ... kk.
Santoshima Resident: i will get some lunch in the meanwhile ... a minute

--BELL--

Santoshima Resident: back
Bruce Mowbray: The log is enormous.
Bruce Mowbray: I'd suggest that you catch it later when I post it.
Santoshima Resident: don't bother then ... it's readable in the wiki
Bruce Mowbray: There it is.
Bruce Mowbray: But it's too long to absorb all at once..
Bruce Mowbray: So, there's the same theme again:
Bruce Mowbray: A computer could absorb the log all at once.
Bruce Mowbray: but we can not.
Santoshima Resident: alas, we are flawed it would seem
Bruce Mowbray: Darwinian logic says that humans will succumb to our computers' superiority - - in both strength and ability to adapt.
Bruce Mowbray: Run for the hills!
Santoshima Resident: who will the computer call 'mother'?
Bruce Mowbray: "Matrix"
Santoshima Resident: ah
Bruce Mowbray: Alfred Kelberry: "singularity is a point in the future (often set at or around 2030 A.D.) beyond which overwhelming technical changes (especially the development of superhuman artificial intelligence) make reliable predictions impossible"
Bruce Mowbray: Sunshine Vayandar: Mind uploading, sometimes referred to as non-biological intelligence, centers around the controversial proposition that cognitive processing can be implemented on substrates other than our current neurons. Considering decades of successful results in neurophysiology, and the recent construction of the world’s first brain prosthesis — an artificial copy of the hippocampus — this seems very likely. It appears that our minds are defined more by the information pattern they embody than the particular hardware they are implemented on.
Santoshima Resident: she said that?
Santoshima Resident: wow
Bruce Mowbray: Zen Arado: I'm not sure where the computer ends and 'we' begin Zen Arado: or vice versa
Bruce Mowbray: Just quotes from the chats this week
Bruce Mowbray: some were copy/pasted -- like these.
Santoshima Resident: right
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I find H+ to be a fascinating challenge for us humans to consider.
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome back, Kori!
Santoshima Resident: hey, Korel ~
Korel Laloix: Heya
Santoshima Resident: nice outfit!
Korel Laloix smiles
Korel Laloix: What did I miss?
Bruce Mowbray: Just bringing San up-to-date on our conversation.
Korel Laloix: OH OK.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Santoshima Resident: floating ... ruminating about computers and such changes as we cannot imagine
Korel Laloix: So did you have any other big notes from this or last week?
Bruce Mowbray: Just 'holdin'g the questions that H+ presents is a good thing, I feel.
Korel Laloix: I do find it interesting talking to people about "life before the internet"
Korel Laloix: I have a hard time imagining that.
Bruce Mowbray checks for "Big Notes."
Santoshima Resident: that is amazing, korel
Korel Laloix: Or life before the cell phone.
Bruce Mowbray: I lived the first 14 years of my life without TV. . .
Bruce Mowbray: so being without Internet is a parallel to that.
Bruce Mowbray: and I can extrapolate.
Bruce Mowbray: I threw out my cell phone.
Santoshima Resident: wise
Santoshima Resident: why?
Bruce Mowbray: Who needs an electronic leash?
Korel Laloix: If it is for work it is.
Bruce Mowbray: unless you have kids to keep track of.
Korel Laloix: But if it lets you build relationships.. then it is good.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray ponders -- hermits tend to have problems with relationships.
Korel Laloix: That is such a varied word though.
Korel Laloix: There are so many kind of relationships.
Santoshima Resident: oh, do you have the LM for the I Ching meeting, Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: you mean, the word "hermit" or the word "relationship"?
Korel Laloix: Some positive some negative.
Bruce Mowbray: I will give the I Ching LM to you, San.
Korel Laloix: Relationship
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh!
Santoshima Resident: got to go
Santoshima Resident: thanks!
Bruce Mowbray: Yes. Relationship.
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Santoshima Resident: I Ching group calls
Korel Laloix: what is I Ching group
Korel Laloix: ?
Bruce Mowbray: Off to I Ching!!!
Korel Laloix: Thanks..
Korel Laloix: What is it though?

Bruce Mowbray:  I will give you an LM, Kori.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: Guess I will have to find out.