2013.02.03 07:00 - on death and sorrow

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: hi Kori
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bleu Oleander: where did all this snow come from?
--BELL--

Korel Laloix: What snow.. cold and clear here... smiles
Bleu Oleander: :)
Korel Laloix: At least we have sun.
Bleu Oleander: kinda cloudy here today
Korel Laloix: I like the sun....
Korel Laloix: Sit at a window when it is cold out
Bleu Oleander: hiya LO :)
Louis Onyett: Hi !
Bleu Oleander: Louis do you know Kori?
Louis Onyett: Hmmmm, I would like to if I dont. ;-)
Louis Onyett: Hi Kori.

Bleu Oleander: any thoughts today on a topic?
Louis Onyett: Death and sorrow?
Bleu Oleander: can you introduce the topic a little?
Louis Onyett: Sure. Sorrow can be strange when related to death.
Louis Onyett: We celebrate the memories of the person that has left us.
Louis Onyett: That is not sorrow, it is only when we think of the love and time we no longer can share with them it becomes painful.

Korel Laloix: But when someone leaves for good.. it hurts.
Korel Laloix: Death or not.
Korel Laloix: Something to be sorry for.
Louis Onyett: How is it so different when a best friend moves away we don't feel nearly the sorrow, though?
Bleu Oleander: absence of love?
Louis Onyett: That is a good point, that if someone leaves regardless, sorrow may follow.
Louis Onyett: Sometimes more than if it were a death.
Bleu Oleander: perhaps the finality of death is different than when someone moves away
Korel Laloix: Especially today when people can be virtually there.
Louis Onyett: We must perceive it that way.
Bleu Oleander: is it a matter of how we perceive relationships?
Bleu Oleander: can we find a better attitude, better glass to see through?
Louis Onyett: Hmmm, I know that in death, at least, the sorrow seems comparable to the age of the deceased.
Louis Onyett: And, if it is a freak accident vice expected.
Bleu Oleander: for me, more the closeness of the relationship than the age
Louis Onyett: True, as well.
Bleu Oleander: the degree of unexpectedness as well
Louis Onyett: Absolutely true.
Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Bleu Oleander: what about our own future death?
Bleu Oleander: how do we see that?
Louis Onyett: I've always felt comfortable about it.
Louis Onyett: I could use the rest.
Bleu Oleander: perhaps other's deaths point towards ours in some way
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: hiya Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hello :) snow storm?
Korel Laloix: My own death has seemed closer sometimes.. more diffficult to deal with then.
Eliza Madrigal: nice to see you again Louis, don't let me intrude upon the interesting line of conversation
--BELL--

Louis Onyett: Nice to see you, as well.
Eliza Madrigal: idea of death brings up the fear of not having lived
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: or at a minimum leaving some things undone
Korel Laloix: lag
Louis Onyett: Kori, how did you mean closer and more difficult at times?
Korel Laloix: I grew up in danger.
Korel Laloix: Not sure those are teh right words.
Korel Laloix: So I think I have a certain view of death... as I really did not expect to live this long at certain times.
Louis Onyett: I know that life - all of it - is precious and fleeting. Anyone could be struck down randomly by an accident etc
Louis Onyett: Sounds like you had immediate threats, though.
Xirana Oximoxi: 's current display-name is "Xirana".
Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri
Korel Laloix: But past that phase of my life.
Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone:)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Xiri :)
Korel Laloix: Heya
Louis Onyett: Hi Xirana. :)
Korel Laloix: brb... relog
Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone!! :-)
Bleu Oleander: we're talking about death and sorrow Xiri
Catrinamonblue Resident: 's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
Bleu Oleander: reflections on life and death
Xirana Oximoxi: aha...thank you Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: may I ask how the conversation arose?
Bleu Oleander: hiya Cat
Bleu Oleander: Louis suggested the topic
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi :)
Eliza Madrigal: thank you
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Cat
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Catrina
Eliza Madrigal: there is the saying "don't die with your music inside.."
Bleu Oleander: nice
Catrinamonblue Resident: sry to interrupt please continue
Bleu Oleander: u r not interrupting :)
Bleu Oleander: we're reflecting on death and sorrow
Bleu Oleander: so in what sense do we control our feelings about others deaths?
Bleu Oleander: our own death?
Louis Onyett: Are those feelings to be controlled?
Bleu Oleander: can those feeling change over time ... what role does time play?
Eliza Madrigal: all the preparation in the world flies out the window when a loss occurs
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm not afraid to die just afraid of pain myself,
Bleu Oleander: does it really though?
Louis Onyett: We must deal with them. And, yes Eliza, that is true.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe not in a wider way, Bleu, with time... but at the instant I think so... and I think reverberations comes up when unexpected
Louis Onyett: At least immediately, we aren't prepared for the loss and sorrow.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have had a very close friend die in a car accident some years ago
Bleu Oleander: preparation works from behind the scenes perhaps?
Eliza Madrigal: *come up
Catrinamonblue Resident: I found out through facebook of all places while at work
Bleu Oleander: oh my sorry Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: it was a shock and hurt
Louis Onyett: Cat, what was that like, if you don't mind me asking
Eliza Madrigal: sorry to hear, Catrina
Catrinamonblue Resident: it wasn't done deliberatly just facebook is faster at getting the news out than phoning
Bleu Oleander: one of the most moving conversations I ever had in sl was with someone who just lost their partner in rl
Catrinamonblue Resident: I probably shouldn't have driven home right after,
Catrinamonblue Resident: lucky I didn;t have a car accident
Eliza Madrigal: yes Bleu?
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's hard to put into words just what it ws like
Bleu Oleander: brought rl into sl for me
Bleu Oleander: felt the pain
Catrinamonblue Resident: she was a sister to me, we grew up together
Bleu Oleander: and realized the connections
Eliza Madrigal: :(
Catrinamonblue Resident: sry I'm cross conversing with you all
Bleu Oleander: crossing but related
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...related :)
Eliza Madrigal: nothing can replace someone - each is a unique presence in the world
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: so in that sense I think it never gets easier/better
Louis Onyett: I noted earlier that reflecting on the positive memories is not what seems painful, but rather knowing the person won't get to share more love with us and those in our lives
Eliza Madrigal: but maybe something precious about that..sacred
Catrinamonblue Resident: It will be 4 years next week that I lost her and I still miss her somedays
Louis Onyett: That is what the sorrow captures for me
Bleu Oleander: the person I met put this on his profile:

Bleu Oleander: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk6KdAFUPOU
--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: a beautiful sense of losing someone and not being able to follow them
Xirana Oximoxi: wonderful music
Catrinamonblue Resident: Yes Louis, that is what I find too. I miss her and miss all the possible conversations that we have not had over the past 4 years.
Louis Onyett: And all the wonderful things she could have accomplished
Eliza Madrigal: people talk about reaching for the phone... 20 years later
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: or hearing someone's voice again
Bleu Oleander: can seem real
Louis Onyett: Hard not to tap every one on the shoulder and say: you know how lucky you are to be alive?
Eliza Madrigal is a puddle now, with this music
Bleu Oleander: :)
Louis Onyett: But, that is morbid, and people don't seem to like that.
Catrinamonblue Resident: hugs
Bleu Oleander: beautiful yes?
Eliza Madrigal: * yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: having survived 2 suicide attempts I KNOW how lucky I am to be alive
Catrinamonblue Resident: and even when in darkness and pain I still am thankful to be alive
Bleu Oleander: auditory hallucinations are common after losing someone
Bleu Oleander: i've experienced that
Louis Onyett: Was kidding about actually tapping people on the shoulder of course.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I think it should be done
Louis Onyett: And, yes, most people realized how fleeting life can be.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: a friend here writes in a blog nearly every day... at some point almost always saying "it is enough to be alive"
Louis Onyett: Hard to complain about a slow waiter when you keep perspective.
Bleu Oleander: it is everything to be alive
Louis Onyett: And the close people in our lives define what that means
Catrinamonblue Resident: was listening to this this morning, seems to fit I think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6jxxagVEO4
Eliza Madrigal: what of the idea that each person, appearance in the world, has a unique purpose and that whether or not it seems to be the case, if they move on, that purpose was fulfilled ? It doesn't help missing them... but it helps missing them for us/those who knew them, for them
Eliza Madrigal: of course, it is only an idea... hard to find solace in those
Bleu Oleander: I feel we make our own purpose ... even in how we see others' purpose
Bleu Oleander: so in a way everyone fulfills their own purpose?
Eliza Madrigal: some never seem to have that sense of finding their voice, coming into their own
Eliza Madrigal: don't seem allowed that
Bleu Oleander: perhaps that is their own then?
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
Bleu Oleander: how are we to judge what "our own" is?
Catrinamonblue Resident: faith :)
Bleu Oleander: only in relation to others perhaps?
Eliza Madrigal: indeed we can't for someone else
Eliza Madrigal: though I think there are moments when we really see someone shine
Bleu Oleander: yes
Louis Onyett: definitely.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Louis Onyett: Some shine so brightly they do go early it seems.
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bleu Oleander: we make the shining together I think
--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: can someone shine without someone to appreciate the shining?
Louis Onyett: That is true...all of the persons relationships at home, work etc are the fuel for the sould
Louis Onyett: *soul
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Bleu they can shine, they can shine bright without anyone else ever noticing til it's too late
Xirana Oximoxi: I like this metaphor...'fuel for the soul' :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal humming .."well we all shine on...."
Louis Onyett: And with close losses, we lose fuel as well.
Louis Onyett: :(
Bleu Oleander: we exist in others memories so when they die a part of us dies too?
Louis Onyett: That part is gone, yes.
Xirana Oximoxi: it's important to be aware of the ones that shine close to us... not to have to notice it when it's too late
Catrinamonblue Resident: the other is also true that they live because we live and we remember them
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: we live as long as someone remembers us?
Louis Onyett: yes, Cat, I've often thought that the memory lives on and so do they to an extent here with us
Catrinamonblue Resident: My sister an I talk often about our friend, it keeps her alive to us :)
Xirana Oximoxi: I do think so Bleu....like Louis and Cat say...we have part of the ones we love with us....
Eliza Madrigal: there is also loss that occurs even when someone stays in the world, and you do too, but connection seems lost by distance - that is a death in its way too.. another sort of death of potential
Bleu Oleander: not as final perhaps?
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Louis Onyett: Yes, and perhaps more difficult, if the other decides to leave the relationship
Louis Onyett: Sorrow plus being pushed away. A tough thing
Eliza Madrigal: yes, gone are fantasies of they'd be there if they could
Eliza Madrigal: each situation quite different of course
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: or lose connection due to differences , I have lost my mother because she decided I was not the daughter she wanted.
Bleu Oleander: oh so sorry Cat ... must be hard?
Eliza Madrigal: :(
Catrinamonblue Resident: it is and it isn't
Louis Onyett: Very true, Cat, a lot of family disputes happen like that.
Louis Onyett: Brothers stop talking to brothers, sisters to sisters, moms to dads
Catrinamonblue Resident: I miss the mother that could have been but not the mother that is
Louis Onyett: All heartbreaking in a way I would imagine
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Xirana Oximoxi: to be mother in itself isnot enough to be so 'special....
Louis Onyett: And, she missed a wonderful opportunity to have a wonderful daughter
Catrinamonblue Resident: and to see amazing grandchildren
Bleu Oleander: missed opportunities
Louis Onyett: Yes...opportunities missed that don't come around again.
Louis Onyett: That is the hard part of sorrow in all of these cases, from what I feel
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have accepted that it is her choice, and as much as I wish it could be different it isn't
Louis Onyett: Death, a wonderful person no longer enriches us, estrangement, people don't get to share
Eliza Madrigal: and all, the basis of appreciating what does appear
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: I still talk to people who have passed, either through physical death or estrangement
Eliza Madrigal: I relate with them
Louis Onyett: Good approach, Eliza. Good for you.
Catrinamonblue Resident: there are emails in my draft folder :)
Bleu Oleander: part of the conversation we have with ourselves
Eliza Madrigal: so yes, not 'lost' in that sense... some magic lingering
Louis Onyett: Cat, be careful about which ones you send.
Louis Onyett: ;-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) I know better
Catrinamonblue Resident: after many years of trying I have learned
Louis Onyett: I know, just teasing.
--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: it's funny how estrangement affects you differently than loss. There is always a sense of I should have been able to make the relationship work
Catrinamonblue Resident: I could have tried harder
Catrinamonblue Resident: but after a time I realized that I could do nothing
Xirana Oximoxi: it depends....sometimes it can be like a kind of liberation too
Xirana Oximoxi: specially if the relation was not letting you be yourself
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I know and your right
Catrinamonblue Resident: but...
Xirana Oximoxi: always looking with critical and negative eye ..
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes better to stop setting oneself up to need what they can't give - yet can only do that by forgiving that person in some sense too, letting them be
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes your right Eliza and most days I recognize that
Eliza Madrigal: in my own life this has been a difficult journey with parents, and just when I felt beyond the struggle in some sense, it crops up unsuspectingly
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps in times of vulnerability when one turns to their parent by natural course
Eliza Madrigal: even if just inside knowing they can't be there otherwise
Bleu Oleander: hiya Steve
Santoshima Resident: 's current display-name is "San".
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevie :)
stevenaia Michinaga: waves, more snow, just like RL
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Steve
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Steve:)
Eliza Madrigal is meanwhile still having summer in Miami, lol
Bleu Oleander: hi San :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San :)
Santoshima Resident: morning
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi San
Louis Onyett: hi Steve, San.
stevenaia Michinaga: waves to San
Xirana Oximoxi: hi San :)
stevenaia Michinaga: awww, Patience, my favorite
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: we've been reflecting on death and sorrow this morning
stevenaia Michinaga: was just at a funeral yesterday, saw much of that
stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be much of this within the year, the year of getting older
Eliza Madrigal: was just about to ask stevenaia... seems for you many losses recently :(
Louis Onyett: Stands to reason one will experience this more as they get older...
Santoshima Resident: maybe depends on what part of the world one lives in

Bleu Oleander: speaking of death ... very interesting series: http://www.youtube.com/orderofthegooddeath

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, interesting topics
Xirana Oximoxi: ty Bleu...I'll look it later
--BELL--

Xirana Oximoxi: I go now, see you soon and thanks for this interesting conversation and thoughts... we avoid very oft to talk about death :-)
Eliza Madrigal: bye Xiri, yes true
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Xiri
Bleu Oleander: ok bye Xiri
Bleu Oleander: take care
Eliza Madrigal put some important things in writing this year... brought a sense of rest it brought somehow, accepting the end
Bleu Oleander: ty Louis for suggesting this topic :)
Bleu Oleander: very thoughtful conversation
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Louis Onyett: I plan on a more uplifting suggesting if asked again, though.
Bleu Oleander: I found much of it uplifting actually :)
Eliza Madrigal: me too
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's good to talk about these things
stevenaia Michinaga: will read the log, sounded interesting
Louis Onyett: Yes, a lot of good discussion that was uplifting.
Bleu Oleander: although rarely brought up I find people have very interesting ideas about death
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Louis Onyett: Yes, most aren't looking forward to rest, for example.
Louis Onyett: :-)
Bleu Oleander: the weight of the conversation can provide a balance to lighter subjects
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't think the conversation was any weightier than any other topics discussed really, it's just another facet of being :)
Louis Onyett: True.
Bleu Oleander: yes
Louis Onyett: And one that needs attention like the others, I suppose.
stevenaia Michinaga: Laundry calls.... (another weighty topic) see you soon
Eliza Madrigal: so often it isn't the what we talk about but from where
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Steve :)
Bleu Oleander: bye steve take care
Louis Onyett: Another laundry emergency strikes me too. brb
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: sounds serious :P
Bleu Oleander: take care everyone
Eliza Madrigal: bye winged Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: <3
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: thanks for the conversation
Eliza Madrigal: thank you
Bleu Oleander: and for coming :)
Bleu Oleander: nice to see you all :) bye bye
Wol Euler: what's going on here, then? extra new snow?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol
Eliza Madrigal: a storm came through in the night
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello eliza, san, cat, louis
Wol Euler: ah :)
Santoshima Resident: greetings wol
Eliza Madrigal: we've had quite a moving discussion this morning Wol... sorrow, death, losses of various kinds
Wol Euler: oh, sorry to miss that, and sorry for your sorrows
Eliza Madrigal: somehow eased when shared
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: please, don't let me interrupt
Eliza Madrigal: we're at a moment of rest, some having moved on with their days :)
Wol Euler: ah, that's good too
Louis Onyett: Hi all.
Wol Euler: I came in because Cat's last 99 Days post reminded me of the Karuna Metta place
Wol Euler: I thought I'd do my sitting there today
Wol Euler: hello louis
Eliza Madrigal: nice idea
Louis Onyett: Hi Wol.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Wol Euler: well, I need structure. Left to myself I just drift idly, in meditation as in life.
Eliza Madrigal: If I try to be structured I find that there is so little, and if I try to let go of structure I find there is too much
--BELL--

Louis Onyett: All, nice to be with you. Must go, enjoy the day.
Wol Euler: bye louis, take care
Eliza Madrigal: bye Louis, thank you very much
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Louis :)
Eliza Madrigal: It was Louis's topic, but I didn't ask about his loss specifically :::sends well wishes::::
Catrinamonblue Resident: must go now as well, hugs to you all
Wol Euler: hmmmmmm
Wol Euler: bye cat, take care
Eliza Madrigal: bye Catrina, be well too
Eliza Madrigal: so going to Metta or have gone?
Wol Euler: going now, or at least when you leave :)
Eliza Madrigal: will join if okay
Wol Euler: even better!
Wol Euler grins.
Wol Euler: see you there
Eliza Madrigal: okay
Eliza Madrigal smiles -*thank you pavilion*