The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray.

Attending: Zon, Eliza, Santoshima, Korel, Bleu, and Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Zon.
Zon Kwan: heya
Bruce Mowbray: Have you been thinking about "vulnerability" -- or perhaps even feeling vulnerable, Zon?
Zon Kwan: Is it this weeks topic ?
Bruce Mowbray: Yeppers.
Zon Kwan: hm
Bruce Mowbray: I confess that I've not read the logs this week, though.
Zon Kwan: it takes courage
Bruce Mowbray: I did watch the recommended YouTube video and read the New York Times article, though.
Zon Kwan: and faith
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, vulnerability seems to conjure up both fear and grief...
Bruce Mowbray: so courage and faith would be good to bring along with one's vulnerability.
Bruce Mowbray: I will give links to the YouTube vid (now almost 8 million views of that one) -- and the New York Times article recommended by Bleu.
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html
Zon Kwan: protecting oneself like a chicken inside the egg
Bruce Mowbray: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/13/try-a-little-tenderness/?src=me&ref=general
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I guess there are all sorts of eggs -- and cocoons.

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: one needs to balance though
Bruce Mowbray: In all things, if possible, yes.
Zon Kwan: protect oneself to grow
Zon Kwan: but not from growth
Bruce Mowbray: And perhaps there will always be parts of ourselves that need to be protected (in order to grow)... regardless of our age.
Zon Kwan: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Lifelong learning...
Zon Kwan: would be foolish not to
Bruce Mowbray: But isn't there a difference between wise, prudent "protection" and paranoia?
Bruce Mowbray: Or, if not paranoia, then just stubbornness.
Zon Kwan: like between all extremes
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza!
Zon Kwan: Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce and Zon
Bruce Mowbray: I will give you a notecard, Liz.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks
Eliza Madrigal smiles at stubbornness
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zon Kwan: isn't vulnerability a little negative word, something not to be strived for?
Bruce Mowbray: I was thinking of becoming too comfortable in one's ruts...
Bruce Mowbray: and becoming too stubborn to get out of them and risk new experiences.
Bruce Mowbray: How so, Zon?
Zon Kwan: openness would be better word
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. I like that.
Zon Kwan: vulnerability sounds little masochistic
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu's clarification was that we already are vulnerable so it would be wise to accept that perhaps
Zon Kwan: hm
Eliza Madrigal: in the sense that all of humanity is
Bruce Mowbray: Good point. Did you read the article Bleu recommended: "Try a Little Tenderness" ?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zon Kwan: tenderness is ok but to strive to be vulnerable...
Zon Kwan: or accept it
Bruce Mowbray: I could just see the author's 20-year-old sons trying to stifle their fear for their mother after the car accident.
Eliza Madrigal: bringing love to the surface
Zon Kwan: that's better
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps we could say, "strive to be open to vulnerability..."
Zon Kwan: but to bring love out is strength
Bruce Mowbray: It seems that what we call "courage" requires openness to vulnerability.
Zon Kwan: openness to risk
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Bruce Mowbray: willingness to go there.
Zon Kwan: but not a goal in itself
Eliza Madrigal: I like that... not conjuring or contriving but accepting what is
Bruce Mowbray: Brené Brown: "The power of vulnerability" -- on YouTube now has 7,702,740 views!
Zon Kwan: accepting but also changing by openness
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html
Eliza Madrigal: what changes Zon?

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray listens.
Zon Kwan: if you bring your openness to a situation
Zon Kwan: that involves risk of getting hurt,
Zon Kwan: you change the situation
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Kori.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori
Zon Kwan: hi korel :)
Korel Laloix: Bozho
Eliza Madrigal: is acceptance by nature acknowledging a vulnerable position?
Bruce Mowbray: I would say that self-acceptance includes accepting one's vulnerabilities and one's imperfections.
Korel Laloix: If you have any... smiles
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Never met anyone who didn't, actually.
Korel Laloix: I just don't like the apparent implications of self acceptance.. to me that means just giving up and not working to improve yourself.... or am I missing a shade of meaning in this?
Zon Kwan: acceptance of what it means making one's ego vulnerable to change
Eliza Madrigal: receptivity to feedback not just giving over to another's will
Eliza Madrigal: so a lot of self-examination in there too
Zon Kwan: 'accepting what is' doesn't mean one would not effect the direction of events from that moment
Bruce Mowbray: Seems to me that a sense of worthwhileness is basic to the whole picture. . . and that the more worthwhile you feel, the more vulnerable you're willing/able to become.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: after reading your whole session last week Bruce, I listened to a few of Byron Katie's audios... found her method very powerful and a good example of what Zon mentions
Korel Laloix: Yes, I think one pads you for the other.
Bruce Mowbray: Isn't she amazing?!
Eliza Madrigal: good work, I will say that :)
Eliza Madrigal: in some ways more useful than something like nonviolent communication almost because there is complete acceptance at one's own end, complete responsibility
Zon Kwan: likes the responsibility part
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, complete responsibility for one's thoughts -- and for the emotional reactions they provoke (in ourselves).
Bruce Mowbray: Isn't this what we mean by "maturity," though?
Zon Kwan: or growing up
Eliza Madrigal: not sure - I am still thinking about Kori's point too - I guess it matters whether someone is harsh with themselves or loving, so... yes "worthy"
Eliza Madrigal: cause the same idea of changing something can be empowering or hurtful
Zon Kwan: growing is always hurtful for ego
Korel Laloix: I don't agree with you on that Zon.
Korel Laloix: When i grow, yes it can be painful, but it can be a thing of pride as well.
Bruce Mowbray: The degree to which we do not feel compelled to "control" situations . . . seems to correlate with worthwhileness and courage - and willingness to be open, vulnerable.
Zon Kwan: to me pride is part of ego
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. pondering whether growing is necessarily hurtful for ego...
Korel Laloix: `OK.. but hurtful?
Korel Laloix: I don't think so....
Korel Laloix: When I learn something new, I am usually happy about it.
Korel Laloix: But.. yes.. being humble can help you learn.
Korel Laloix: Is that what you mean?
Zon Kwan: then you not need to be vulnerable

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: you can just study happily
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: Study maybe... but learning a new skill.. maybe not.
Zon Kwan: but when you transform deeply, it hurts
Eliza Madrigal: maybe a tangible example is something like fitness... one could go at it from an ego angle, imagining "I will look better," etc. or drop deeper - intentionally trying to deprive ego isn't likely to be satisfying or helpful though
Bruce Mowbray: Recognition of ignorance is the initiation of education...
Bruce Mowbray: I love it when someone says, "I really know nothing about that; can you please say more?"
Bruce Mowbray: (and I say it a lot myself.)
Bruce Mowbray: At some point, one realizes that there's not much there to "defend..."
Zon Kwan: building oneself as intelligent and fit person and educated person does not involve being vulnerable
Korel Laloix: Sort of an old line in my community.... Humble students make the best teachers.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Having been a teacher for many years, I would also say that the reverse is also true: humble teachers make good students.
Zon Kwan: humbleness can be a source of pride too
Korel Laloix: never thought of that.
Korel Laloix: I am proud of my humility.
Korel Laloix smiles
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zon Kwan: lol
Zon Kwan: me too
Bruce Mowbray: How about being proud of one's vulnerability, then?
Zon Kwan: doesn't sound..
Zon Kwan: convincing
Bruce Mowbray: For me, vulnerability implies a sort of softness, tenderness.... the opposite of brittleness and hardness.
Zon Kwan: to me it's more
Bruce Mowbray: I can understand why someone would be proud of that.
Zon Kwan: one can be soft and very determined
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Zon.

Eliza Madrigal: like a dog showing its belly :)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, like that, Eliza... or a child looking up with awe and respect toward a caring adult.
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, San!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San :)
Santoshima Resident: hello!
Zon Kwan: vulnerability involves hurt..softness does not
Santoshima Resident: am a cloud
Korel Laloix: Heya
Zon Kwan: hi santo :)
Bruce Mowbray: I see you ok, San.
Santoshima Resident: hmm
Korel Laloix: I see a lot of you in fact... smiles
Santoshima Resident: naked?
Korel Laloix: Bikini..
Santoshima Resident: viewer is on the fritz
Santoshima Resident: oh bikini, ok
Santoshima Resident: please continue
Zon Kwan: isn't it nice to notice how one word can have so many meanings for each of us
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: When I first started with SL three years ago, I went to an SL Quaker Meeting in leopard-skin swimming trunks... but thought I was wearing a suit!
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha
Korel Laloix: Bruce, what do you think you are wearing right now?
Bruce Mowbray: talk about vulnerability!
Eliza Madrigal: to me it is a more complex word now than it was when we began to discuss it
Bleu Oleander: hiya :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Bleu.
Eliza Madrigal giggles at the imagery
Korel Laloix: I just thought that was your norm.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu
Zon Kwan: why are you naked now Bruce ?
Bruce Mowbray: I thought I was wearing a gold shirt and black shoes and black pants.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm not naked, am I ????
Zon Kwan: lol
Eliza Madrigal: so some hear vulnerable as naked in a blizzard?
Bruce Mowbray: Loved the "Try a little tenderness" article, Bleu.
Eliza Madrigal: excuse me just a moment please
Bleu Oleander: yes me too, Bruce
Zon Kwan: hi blue
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for recommending it -- and also the book "Is God a Mathematician?" -- which I'm now reading.
Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
Zon Kwan: yes she is
Bleu Oleander: oh yes, really liked that book
Zon Kwan: and much more
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: a most enlightening and enjoyable book, for sure.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: I read that one.. it is good mostly.
Bleu Oleander: brb
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm trying to think of ways to include the math book in with the theme of "Fives" in the next Art as Being project.
Eliza Madrigal: math book?
Zon Kwan: fives ?
Bruce Mowbray: wb, San.
Bleu Oleander: ah nice idea, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: "Is God a Mathematician?" -- recommended by Bleu.
Bleu Oleander: the theme for the next Art of Being project
Zon Kwan: why not fours or sixs ?
Korel Laloix: Back to RL for a bit..
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat all.
Bleu Oleander: PaB is 5 yrs old :)
Bruce Mowbray: Because PaB is turning 5 on April 1st.
Bleu Oleander: bye Kori
Eliza Madrigal waves to Kori
Zon Kwan: bye korel
Korel Laloix: Take care.
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Kori!
Bruce Mowbray: methinks San is having troubles with her server today.
Bleu Oleander: looks like that
Zon Kwan: the video links vulnerability with connection
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it does that, Zon.
Bruce Mowbray: also brings in themes of shame, worthwhileness, . . . . WB, San!
Zon Kwan: interesting
Bruce Mowbray: It really is an excellent talk.
Bruce Mowbray: Once again, here's the link in case anyone missed it:
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html
Bruce Mowbray: She seems like a delightful -- and very intelligent -- person.
Bruce Mowbray: I thought of something during her talk, though....
Zon Kwan: listens
Bruce Mowbray: How about becoming vulnerable to things that annoy us -- like "foul language"....?
Bruce Mowbray: developing a tolerance for it....?
Bleu Oleander: hi Raffi
Bruce Mowbray: in order to experience more -- in order to share space with persons who might be doing things that annoy us....?
Zon Kwan: or perhaps seeing through it
Raffila Millgrove: hi guys. sorry to join you so late.
Bruce Mowbray: Is such tolerance not also a form of vulnerability?
Zon Kwan: hi raffi
Bleu Oleander: nice to see you Raffi :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Raffi.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi, no worries good to see you
Zon Kwan: hm..tolerance is not vulnerability to me
Eliza Madrigal: capacity not to be daunted
Zon Kwan: there is distance
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Zon... that's really why I brought it up. . . I can see how some would not allow themselves to be tolerant of annoying things... so they would eliminate those things (and people) from their experience...
Zon Kwan: but being vulnerable means more
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Zon Kwan: so perhaps tolerance would be a step towards it
Raffila Millgrove: i read the chat logs. wanted to say one thing on topic of this week before it's over: hope you don't think this is too narrowing--but vulnerability--it was open to so many different interpretations... which is hallmark of PAB and everyone fine with that. (me too) but I felt vulnerability--is not that wide.. is sort of precise and by widening it so much, felt like one could not go Deep into actual.. experience/emotions/feelings etc connected with being vulnerable. seemed like the personal took a back seat to wide range of ideas.
Bruce Mowbray: We can surely go deeply into the experiences that we've had with vulnerablity, I feel....
Bleu Oleander: ok sometimes I think
Bleu Oleander: what does vulnerable mean to you Raffi?
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for the feedback Raffi - how would you have approached it?
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully for more from Raffi -- (fascinated).
Bleu Oleander: I think we were colored somewhat by the suggestion of the video
Raffila Millgrove: well ... i don't facilitate discussions here.. but.. had i done--i think i might have asked.. questions.. like: going around circle. will you share with us your first memory of an experience--a time in early life where you felt that feeling--we call vulnerability.
Raffila Millgrove: and moved along from there...
Bruce Mowbray: a fine question, Raffi.
Raffila Millgrove: since you ask. about a possible approach.
Bruce Mowbray: I recall feelings of vulnerability for others before I felt them for myself, I think.
Bruce Mowbray: I remember feeling "sorry" for people at a very young age.
Bruce Mowbray: Only later did I begin to get hurt myself and then began to feel sorry for myself -- and to feel (and fear) vulnerability.
Bruce Mowbray: but then I had built up some capacity for compassion... (compassion toward myself.)

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: and so vulnerability became a possibility for growth - albeit a scary one
Eliza Madrigal: at the guardians session, suggesting a light 'check in' was felt to be too much, and I then began to learn how the word doesn't sound positive to some, this has surprised and educated me
Raffila Millgrove: interesting Eliza.
Bruce Mowbray: As I said at that meeting, I thought the check-in was a FINE thing to do... but others were concerned about the log's being posted.... exposure, I guess.
Zon Kwan: can you allow yourself to be vulnerable without trust that something good will come out of it to you?
Raffila Millgrove: the logs? which ones. you mean the daily chats?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, understandable... so I guess it was a high bar of what was thought of as checking in... exposing
Raffila Millgrove: i read the guardian session, must not have understood properly what i was seeing.
Bruce Mowbray: The log of the Guardians' Meeting, Raffi. . .
Raffila Millgrove: yes.
Eliza Madrigal: good question Zon
Raffila Millgrove: that log.. you mean.. that one. people were wanting not to be posted?
Bruce Mowbray: (It could have been edited by the time it got posted, Raffi...)
Raffila Millgrove: the guardian meet?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, that's the mtg.
Eliza Madrigal: yes... it was posted because we didn't go into personal territory
Raffila Millgrove: yes ok... i see.. yes i thought i was reading the full session.
Eliza Madrigal: but the offer was out for it not to be
Raffila Millgrove: i got it. ty for clarify.
Bruce Mowbray: but clearly, some folks felt vulnerable... if their words were posted.
Eliza Madrigal: I really have to give the link to one of the Byron Katie talks for later, in this light... it is, I thought, rather incredible: http://www.byronkatie.com/2009/12/audio_i_cant_stand_my_best_fri_1.htm   <  --I'd love to learn to approach it this way
Raffila Millgrove: omg. lol
Raffila Millgrove: i've been there.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Raffila Millgrove: i quit my best friend, a sister to me, after 30 years+. i couldn't stand her anymore.
Bruce Mowbray: Katie is amazing.
Raffila Millgrove: she finally crossed some invisible line--that was Too Much and i've never regretted the decision for one minute, it was so long in coming--so many times considered and rejected.
Raffila Millgrove: and i loved her so much. but i never felt a moment of sadness .. only relief that it was finally over.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe its role had passed
Bruce Mowbray: "Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so" -  (Hamlet to Rosencrantz and Guildenstern)
Raffila Millgrove: yes. it's hard when you know you will hurt someone terribly to make a choice.. for yourself. very hard.
Eliza Madrigal: I related to this so much... one of my closest friends in life and I have so little in common - but care for each other deeply
Eliza Madrigal: and often I catch myself thinking I wish she'd evolve, lol
Eliza Madrigal hangs head
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: 'evolve' is an interesting choice of words :)
Raffila Millgrove: when you have so many years shared experiences, when your friend has been there for you... it's so hard to end it.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, there are some things beyond our capacity for tolerance -- especially when they are done over and over again...
Eliza Madrigal: yes, especially once you listen to this
Bleu Oleander: I'll listen later thanks!
Raffila Millgrove: that's why i knew it was ok... because i didn't feel one second of.. regret or sadness and i have never once missed her either.
Raffila Millgrove: lol
Bruce Mowbray: I will listen to it later, too.
Raffila Millgrove: thank you for the link.
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for the suggestion.
Eliza Madrigal: well thank you, Bruce, because I've been hearing her name for years but wasn't really wanting to listen to any more "teachings"
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: so I gave it a shot after hearing you
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I do understand that. I went to her site ( http://www.thework.com ) because Zen spoke so highly of her.
Raffila Millgrove: Eliza why did you come to feel you didn't want to hear any more "teachings"?
Bruce Mowbray listens...
Eliza Madrigal: oh, so many reasons... it is hard to give just one but basically I've come to feel like I've had to be on an IV of teachings just to function at times
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: and I'd like to see what I'm ready to LIVE
Eliza Madrigal: sort of like getting to the bottom of the fridge and drawing on creativity
Bruce Mowbray: Your being is the best teacher, Eliza.
Bleu Oleander: teachings come from every which way and so hard to turn them off for me
Bruce Mowbray: (and I have been a grateful student to that).
Eliza Madrigal: yes... it is hard to describe what has shifted
Eliza Madrigal: I am not cutting them off  but hm...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: "Readiness is all." - (another Hamlet quote, I think).
Bleu Oleander: trust that you have learned what you needed to know for now
Bruce Mowbray: and yet another: "The rest is silence." (I need to be going now. )
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks everyone.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Raffila Millgrove: i like to learn things. new things i haven't heard about, but.. no one says anything too.. new in the "teachings" field about human.. experiences/emotions etc. nothing too new in the philosophy.. to "learn" from.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Bruce
Raffila Millgrove: bye Bruce
Bleu Oleander: I learn something new every day it seems
Bruce Mowbray: May we each be taught in our own special ways.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
Zon Kwan: waves
Eliza Madrigal waves
Raffila Millgrove: glad i had chance to see you all today. take care.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for coming Raffi and Zon
Bleu Oleander: bye all :)
Raffila Millgrove: sorry again to pop in so late. was really having FUN here. lol
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu
Bleu Oleander: take care
Eliza Madrigal: lovely day all
Eliza Madrigal: :) Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: too much to squeeze everything in.
Raffila Millgrove: lol
Eliza Madrigal: cute slippers Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: ty :)