2013.02.17 01:00 - Unselfishness, and Ballet

Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

Agatha Macbeth: Good moaning :)
Wol Euler: happy sunday
Wol Euler: life going well?
Wol Euler: hello zon
Agatha Macbeth: It is now I see you
Zon Kwan: good moaning to all
Wol Euler: awwwww <3
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Zon
Agatha Macbeth: ♥
Agatha Macbeth: You look rather robotic
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: I thought fetishy rather than robotic
Agatha Macbeth: Must be me then...
Wol Euler grins.
Wol Euler: just an example of the difficulty of relying on visual info in this world
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh, could be
Wol Euler: I assume that the glossy sheen is latex, you are probably assuming that it's metallic
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Agatha Macbeth: Actually now the focus has sharpened I see it clearer
Wol Euler smiles.
Agatha Macbeth: Good job we don't have to rely on viewers in RL
Wol Euler: or do we? :)
Agatha Macbeth: Eyes you mean?
Wol Euler points to "having and dropping"
Wol Euler: filters
Wol Euler: habits, prejudices, memories, beliefs
Zon Kwan: filters of our minds
Agatha Macbeth: The only filters I have are coffee filters :p
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Agatha Macbeth: Well one tries to avoid prejudice of course
Wol Euler nods.
Agatha Macbeth: That's why I never read profiles any more
Wol Euler: hmmmmm
Wol Euler: interesting point
Agatha Macbeth: Better to know the person from themselves
Wol Euler: I see your point, but one might reply that the profile is at least self-chosen by the person
Wol Euler: they chose to depict themselves that way
Wol Euler: so it's not pure prejudice, IMHO
Wol Euler: yes, you react to the info they present, in a way that they might not expect or desire
Agatha Macbeth: Ah well
Wol Euler: I'm not slapping you down, please continue
Wol Euler: this is interesting
Agatha Macbeth: I don't feel slapped in the least :p
Wol Euler: at least I hope I'm not slapping you down, I didn*t intend to
Agatha Macbeth: Just saying that works for me
Agatha Macbeth: You slapper you ♥
Wol Euler: :-P
Agatha Macbeth: Life through a lens as Robbie Williams would say
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: perhaps inescapably so, but we can try to be aware of the lens
Agatha Macbeth: Yes
Wol Euler: I think about walking meditation in this context, and how most of the time I walk on auto-pilot
Agatha Macbeth: Awareness and doing are sadly often not the same thing...
Wol Euler: not looking around at all, lost in thoughts
Agatha Macbeth nods
Agatha Macbeth: There but not there
Wol Euler: largely detached from the world around me
Wol Euler: yep
Agatha Macbeth: Well I'm much the same to be honest
Agatha Macbeth: At least we can say we're not being consciously selfish
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: there was a great short story by Woody Allen about this, called I think "the most selfish man in the world"
Wol Euler: actually not about this topic at all, heheh, never mind
Wol Euler: brain is misfiring this morning
Agatha Macbeth: But close eh
Wol Euler takes more coffee
Agatha Macbeth: Slurp

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Woody Allen is hilarious
Wol Euler: as I get older I find him less funny, somehow
Wol Euler: I saw Manhattan again after many years, and actually disliked it
Wol Euler: disliked the character he played
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Wol Euler: which was perhaps the point of the film
Wol Euler: but my dislike overrode the jokes
Agatha Macbeth: Filters again perhaps?
Wol Euler: I hadn't realized what a selfish bastard he was, the first time I saw it
Wol Euler: perhaps, yes
Agatha Macbeth: Ha
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, maybe that was the point
Agatha Macbeth: Hello QT :)
Qt Core: Hi all
Wol Euler: buongiorno, qt
Zon Kwan: hi qt
Zon Kwan: is there a way we can be unselfish ?
Agatha Macbeth: Good question that
Wol Euler nods.
Zon Kwan: we are.. selves
Wol Euler: awareness
Agatha Macbeth: By making an effort I guess
Zon Kwan: we have wants
Wol Euler: I doubt that we can avoid being that, but we can hope to recognize it and not express it
Wol Euler: there's a difference between being angry, and shouting in rage
Zon Kwan: so it is just pretending ?
Agatha Macbeth: I think much of it is down to the individual's personality
Wol Euler: no, it is self-improvement
Qt Core: or at least in a way it will not hurt anyone
Zon Kwan: not to hurt in order to feel good about ourselves ?
Wol Euler: not to hurt because that is better for the world, including ourselves
Qt Core: no, being selfish in a way it does not hurt others
Zon Kwan: nods
Zon Kwan: doesnt believe in unselfishness
Qt Core: or minimizing it
Zon Kwan: just skilfulness
Wol Euler: if you mean that we can probably never overcome our innate tendency to selfishness, I would agree
Zon Kwan: yes
Wol Euler: but the choice is ours whether to express that (and hurt others) or not
Wol Euler: as always
Qt Core: is real unselfishness related to lets call it "sainthood" ?
Zon Kwan: rather..how to express it
Wol Euler: every time I walk past somebody on the street, I have the *potential* to punch them randomly in the face
Wol Euler: but I don't do that
Wol Euler: why not?
Zon Kwan: refined selfishess
Qt Core: as many would punch me back harder ?
Wol Euler: heheheheh, that is true
Zon Kwan: lol
Zon Kwan: skilfulness
Wol Euler nods.
Qt Core: is this related to the fight for my survival against the survival of my race and my tribe ?
Zon Kwan: maybe
Zon Kwan: how we identify ourselves

--BELL--

Qt Core: helping others as very down we still hope others will help us when in need. But then.. why doing good is good ? And who decide what good is ?
Zon Kwan: perhaps it is also related to harmonics and esthethics
Zon Kwan: in a given situation
Zon Kwan: we feel what is right
Wol Euler: I guess that is where the problem with sociopaths and psychotics arises :)
Zon Kwan: they are not in harmony with their environment
Wol Euler nods.
Qt Core: is it good enough doing the right thing out of peer pressure ?
Wol Euler: if peer pressure prevents you from acting like a psychopath, then yes :)
Qt Core: that is letting others thell you what the right thing to do is ?
Wol Euler: I would say that if it IS the right thing, then it doesn't matter really how you got there
Wol Euler: it would of course be better for your soul to have considered it carefully and chosen that path
Qt Core: back to what the right thing is question ;-)
Wol Euler: if peer pressure is telling you to do a wrong thing, then that thing is still wrong
Wol Euler: IMHO
Qt Core: i had several fight when in high school with schoolmatyes telling me "but everyone is doing, why you don't"
Wol Euler listens.
Zon Kwan: so we ourselves feel what is right ?
Qt Core: (usually about silly student strikes about the heating not being on in mid october)
Wol Euler: ha
Wol Euler: and you didn't join in? :)
Wol Euler: yes, zon, we do
Zon Kwan: istn that selfish ?
Qt Core: no, especally as i knew most of them weren't going to protest in fromt of the school administration but to the nearest bar/pub/videogame lobby
Wol Euler: well, okay, perhaps it depends on what you meant by "feel"

--BELL--

Qt Core: that is another question feeling or thinking out what is right ? i feel i like to keep my money, but i think paying taxes is the right thing to do
Zon Kwan: but it is me who decides what is right for me based on how i "feel" it ?
Wol Euler: zon, I repeat that it depends what you mean by "feel"
Zon Kwan: or think
Zon Kwan: subjectively
Wol Euler: qt, if you know paying taxes is the right thing to do, then why does the question arise?
Zon Kwan: me me..feel or think
Wol Euler: well, who else can you trust to feel or think except yourself?
Qt Core: as on an "animalistic" level i don't want
Wol Euler: oh, so the question is really whether you should let your personal greed overcome what you know is right?
Zon Kwan: so we cant really be unselfish ?
Qt Core: but then i notice i want roads, schools etc...
Wol Euler: zon, I don't believe that any human is ever entirely free of selfish impulses
Wol Euler: but we have the choice of surrendering to them or not
Zon Kwan: how
Zon Kwan: why
Wol Euler: by doing it or not
Zon Kwan: is unselfishness just a way to promote good for us in longer term..better calculation
Zon Kwan: more evolved selfishness
Qt Core: balancing our different animalistic wants and recognizing that others have their own and compromising
Wol Euler nods.
Zon Kwan: trading ?
Wol Euler: if you can see that a course of action would cause harm to others, then (for me) that action is clearly not right
Zon Kwan: i give you this if you give me that
Wol Euler: yes it would please me to get food for free by shoplifting, but I know that it would hurt the shopowner who is my neighbour
Wol Euler: so I don't do it
Wol Euler: and also, significantly for me, it would hurt ME too
Qt Core: or if less unselfish just fearing punishment
Wol Euler: it would hurt my understanding of myself
Wol Euler: I do not wish to think of myself as a thief
Qt Core: so the more unselfish are the one wit less wants or the one with a larger idea of others
Wol Euler nods.
Qt Core: an example the unselfishness range from meat eaters to vegans, and their consideration ranging from how good meat is to ecology to respect to the animals
Wol Euler nods.
Zon Kwan: hm
Zon Kwan: i can take into consideration the needs of others in order to get power over them
Wol Euler: of course
Zon Kwan: or to feel myself "saint"
Wol Euler: but is that for their good?
Qt Core: sure (evil grin)
Wol Euler: if not, then it is not good
Wol Euler: IMHO
Zon Kwan: the point is why do i consider others
Wol Euler: it's a fair question, many don't
Zon Kwan: there are not good logical answers
Wol Euler: there are answers that might satisfy you formally, arising from game theory and the like
Zon Kwan: except selfish ones
Wol Euler: which "prove" that my interests are best served by making sure others benefit from my presence
Wol Euler: I'm not sure what kind of answer you are looking for, Zon.
Zon Kwan: smiles

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: one based on identification process
Wol Euler: what does that mean?
Wol Euler: aggers, you are veyr quiet. are you stil with us?
Zon Kwan: as long as we identify ourselves as separate persons we remain selfish, only the way we express it changes
Wol Euler ponders.
Wol Euler: how does that relate to what you've been saying about innate selfishness?
Zon Kwan: thats just it
Wol Euler listens.
Zon Kwan: if we identify ourselves with the existence...
Qt Core: i need to go, bye all
Zon Kwan: bye qt
Wol Euler: bye qt, enjoy the day
Agatha Macbeth: Take care QT
Agatha Macbeth: Ciao
Zon Kwan: we can use our selfishness in more creative way
Wol Euler listens.
Zon Kwan: to creat harmonious art of being
Zon Kwan: waves
Agatha Macbeth: Art of Being - yes
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon
Wol Euler: bye zon, thanks for teh conversation
Agatha Macbeth: Well I'm glad I'm still awake after all that :p
Wol Euler laughs.
Wol Euler: poor aggers, having to listen to us wrestle
Agatha Macbeth: Chacun a son gout eh

--BELL--

Wol Euler: though port is a wine I can well do without
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I like port
Agatha Macbeth: A nice red is better tho
Wol Euler: oh, I am so surprised that you didn'T get that
Wol Euler: Flanders and Swann, "Have some Madeira, my dear"
Agatha Macbeth: Any port in a storm?
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, i do know it actually
Wol Euler: whew!
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: I prefer the one about the gas man
Agatha Macbeth: That's totally hilarious
Wol Euler: hmm, I don't think I know that
Agatha Macbeth: The gas man came to call?
Wol Euler: nope
Wol Euler listens.
Agatha Macbeth: It must be on youtube somewhere
Agatha Macbeth: I would think
Wol Euler: surely :)
Agatha Macbeth: Let me see
Wol Euler: yes it is, but I can't view it because of DMCA shit
Wol Euler: bah
Agatha Macbeth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyeMFSzPgGc
Wol Euler: yes, that's the one I can't see :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh hell
Wol Euler: indeed
Agatha Macbeth: Makes things somewhat pointless
Agatha Macbeth: 'Here's a video folks...PS you can't watch it'
Agatha Macbeth: How mind blowingly intelligent
Wol Euler: indeed
Wol Euler: it#s all about money
Agatha Macbeth: What isn't dear?
Wol Euler: we germans would get to watch it for free!
Agatha Macbeth: Mein gott
Wol Euler: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...DylD8dV7U&NR=1
Wol Euler: as a way to soothe our savage brows
Agatha Macbeth: How come you can see that one then?
Wol Euler: presumably because the publisher HAS agreed payment terms in germany
Wol Euler shrugs
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, right
Wol Euler: or because they were sensible enough to say "better that people see it and are inspired to buy the album, than that nobody sees and nobody buys"
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, makes sense it must be said
Agatha Macbeth: How come orcs can't do ballet?
Wol Euler: hehehehe
Wol Euler: because they are too big and bulky, of course
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Wol Euler: too much mass, too widely distributed
Agatha Macbeth: No small orcs then?
Wol Euler: only the babies
Wol Euler: maybe they try to do ballet and fail, and carry that shame and disappointment into their adult rage
Agatha Macbeth: No wonder people have this urge to trash them
Wol Euler nods.
Agatha Macbeth: No culture
Wol Euler: well, a different culture
Agatha Macbeth: Hmm
Wol Euler: I could go on and on about Warcraft, but perhaps that would be selfish :)
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: I associate them more with LOTR

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Are you familiar with this at all? http://www.nfb.ca/film/la_poulette_grise/
Wol Euler looks
Wol Euler: sweet :)
Wol Euler: thank you
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Wol Euler: no, I didn't know that
Wol Euler: but I did spend a lot of my childhood watching NFB films, and Norman McLaren was certainly part of that
Agatha Macbeth: Wondered if you'd heard of him, coming from your part of the world :)
Wol Euler: oh yes
Wol Euler: inescapable
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Agatha Macbeth: I'm so glad
Wol Euler: it brought back such a complex of memories :)
Agatha Macbeth: Nobody these days seems to remember him
Wol Euler sighs.
Wol Euler: did you see his films too?
Agatha Macbeth: I know Pas de deux
Agatha Macbeth: He was pretty groundbreaking in the animation field
Wol Euler nods.
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, I must look at that site a bit more

--BELL--

Wol Euler: watching Pas de Deux
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm, it's good
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: beautiful!
Wol Euler: thank you
Agatha Macbeth: Absolutely
Wol Euler smiles.
Agatha Macbeth: YW
Wol Euler: I don't recall seeing that as a kid, which in a way is surprising
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Wol Euler: but perhaps I did and don't remember, it's pretty longwinded for children
Agatha Macbeth: Yes kids have a short attention span
Wol Euler: also, I noticed the bodies
Wol Euler: very oldfashioned bodies
Agatha Macbeth: You would :P
Wol Euler: they reminded me of the way people looked in TV shows of that era
Agatha Macbeth grins
Wol Euler: which are different to the way people look on TV now
Wol Euler: he isn't nearly buff enough, and she is far too "fat"
Agatha Macbeth: All this digital stuff
Wol Euler: she's 20 pounds too heavy to have a career in classical ballet today

--BELL--

Wol Euler: I mean, she has perceptible boobs!
Wol Euler: modern ballerinas are so skinny that they have boobshadow painted onto their costumes to give the illusion of 3d
Wol Euler: truly*
Agatha Macbeth: It's a sin to have boobs of course
Wol Euler: it's a modern sin to be so not-skinny as to have that much spare flesh
Agatha Macbeth: Mm
Wol Euler: sad
Agatha Macbeth: Another prejudice perhaps?
Wol Euler: indubitably
Wol Euler: nourished by a complex of self-serving agendas
Agatha Macbeth: Oh of course
Wol Euler: with one common theme "you aren't good enough, but spend your money with us and you might be"
Agatha Macbeth: But 'real' people are not like that
Wol Euler: of course not
Wol Euler: "but you should be, and you could be"
Agatha Macbeth: You don't see many women in the street with the physique of a catwalk model for instance
Wol Euler: thank god :)
Agatha Macbeth: hehe
Wol Euler: nor men with ditto, actually
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Wol Euler: I mean, when was the last time you saw a "six-pack" outside of advertising?
Agatha Macbeth: This is true
Agatha Macbeth: I'm more used to seeing beer bellies
Wol Euler: right
Agatha Macbeth: The reality gap
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: though the gap is not so much between us and the models, as between us and the concept that models represent the proper state of people
Wol Euler: which is such bullshytt
Agatha Macbeth: True
Agatha Macbeth: We're on your favourite subject now
Wol Euler laughs.
Wol Euler dismounts from the hobby horse.
Agatha Macbeth: 7sm
Agatha Macbeth: A looooooong session this has been
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: nearly lunchtime!
Agatha Macbeth: Good luck with the editing
Wol Euler: thanks ;) there won't be much to do, no filtering necessary
Agatha Macbeth: Filters again...
Wol Euler: see you at Bertie`s?
Agatha Macbeth: Natch
Wol Euler: all right!
Agatha Macbeth: Are you working today?
Wol Euler: no! hooray
Agatha Macbeth: So, maybe at the 7 AM?
Wol Euler: perhaps even that, aye
Wol Euler: in 3.5 hours
Agatha Macbeth: Okies
Wol Euler: there's no guardians today, right?
Wol Euler: that was last week
Agatha Macbeth: I'll go and take a walk
Agatha Macbeth: Not today no
Wol Euler: good :)
Wol Euler: all right, walk well, and see you later
Wol Euler: ♥
Agatha Macbeth: Enjoy dinner ♥
Wol Euler smiles.

* The "boobshadow" story really is true. I went on a backstage tour of the Lincoln Centre in New York, and when we came to the ballet department the guide pointed this out. The phrase "the illusion of 3d" was a quote from her.