2013.02.18 19:00 - The Lucky Fluidity of Self and Others

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu! :)) Zooming
Eliza Madrigal: what pretty effects... feathery but nearly like fins
Bleu Oleander: hiya steve
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevenaia :)
Bleu Oleander: where are the sparkles from?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, nice
stevenaia Michinaga: these party prep?
Eliza Madrigal: keeping me company until you both arrived
Bleu Oleander: ah nice
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Eliza Madrigal: of course, Sunji made them... but a long time ago
Bleu Oleander: of course
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: was very sorry to read of her pup :(
Bleu Oleander: yes :(
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, pets become part of us and our friends
Bleu Oleander: particularly sad for a puppy
Bleu Oleander: such helpless little creatures
Eliza Madrigal: fragile


Eliza Madrigal: It is nice to see you both, though... anything come to mind to chat about tonight?
Bleu Oleander: hmmm ... thinking
stevenaia Michinaga: Others?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: ah yes
stevenaia Michinaga: where do we begin?
Eliza Madrigal: that's the question... for me it seems harder to begin with
Bleu Oleander: perhaps with the self?

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: others are defined in terms of self?
stevenaia Michinaga: self is defined in terms of others
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: without a sense of self there would be no others I guess
Bleu Oleander: yes

stevenaia Michinaga: my fubu visits me because he knows my wrist makes such a good pillow
Eliza Madrigal: yet, when people talk about no-self I don't think they are talking about no distinctions but rather intimacy of a sort
Bleu Oleander listens
stevenaia Michinaga: does noself exclude others , or just yourself?
Eliza Madrigal: others wouldn't be others in the same way
Eliza Madrigal: hah, hard to talk about ...thinking how to say
stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Bleu Oleander: so many ways to interpret these concepts
Bleu Oleander: depends what you mean by self I think

Eliza Madrigal: I'm glad that my children are 'others' because I can hug them
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: so there is some joy there, celebration
Bleu Oleander: indeed
stevenaia Michinaga: joy within and joy from others
stevenaia Michinaga: their gifts
Eliza Madrigal: yes... I guess we've talked in many ways over the years now, about classification and ways in which we label and separate
Eliza Madrigal: and the downsides of packaging
Eliza Madrigal: but there is benefit too, to detail and distinction

stevenaia Michinaga: in order to drop labels, you must first define them
Eliza Madrigal: so unquestioned labels are obscuring of the joy perhaps
Bleu Oleander: some labels enable joy ... like the label of children?
Eliza Madrigal: it enables protection in a certain way... some space for caretaking and their being cared for
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: but childhood is almost a construct too.. or at least the parameters, which have changed through history

Bleu Oleander: could you say that really everything is a construct?
stevenaia Michinaga: the safety you give provides a place for them to grow and learn, But aspects of childhood is something we never want to loose
Eliza Madrigal: agreements

stevenaia Michinaga: we create our own safe place to be childlike.... forever if we are lucky
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: so what is different about our life, or what qualities does it have, if we feel to know that self and others are constructed and yet precious?

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: others become important in a balancing ourselves when we learn from them and don't judge, it frees the child in us, no embarresment, just smiles
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: no embarrassment, hm... I like that...
Eliza Madrigal: a world without shame - hard to imagine :)
Bleu Oleander: yes

Eliza Madrigal: shame was a big part of my upbringing.. but I've tried not to follow those methods with my kids... maybe this is the way of things, to keep becoming gentler if we keep at it
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: nice
Eliza Madrigal: we can apologize without shame, for instance
Bleu Oleander: yes

stevenaia Michinaga: shame can be a slippery slope, but it can be important to understand it from both sides, what was done, why is it shameful and can we al understand why it is shameful
Bleu Oleander: probably culture defines shame in some ways
stevenaia Michinaga: much learning in shame

Bleu Oleander: hi Ewan
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ewan :)
stevenaia Michinaga: evening Ewan
Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks..
Eliza Madrigal: we've been coming at a few angles of the week's topic of "others"

stevenaia Michinaga: on the other hand... cats have no shame
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Eliza Madrigal: they really don't
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: dogs do
Eliza Madrigal: aw, yes they sure do
Bleu Oleander: at least for a minute :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: so do cats have only self, or no self
Ewan Bonham: I do not think that dogs do... I think they immitate what they see in the people...:)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe dogs are more willing to make a picture of what they think the person wants from them so they can go on their way back to being happy go lucky
Eliza Madrigal: whereas cats go anyway
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bleu Oleander: I think they know when they've done something wrong
Ewan Bonham: Lol... makes sense..
Eliza Madrigal: amateur pet psychologists
stevenaia Michinaga: :0
Eliza Madrigal: think so Bleu?
stevenaia Michinaga: a reflection of ourselves
Bleu Oleander: I think so
Eliza Madrigal: It has been a long time since I've had a dog... hard to remember since it was childhood
Bleu Oleander: of course we teach them what is wrong
Eliza Madrigal: ah :)

Ewan Bonham: Yes, that is a commentary and why we believe dogs are people's best friends..
Eliza Madrigal: people have longer lives due to dogs greeting them at the door as though they are the best thing in the world :))
stevenaia Michinaga: and we are cats' pets and servants

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: hah, yes I suppose so Stevie... although fubu sounds as though he blends in with what you're doing more than most
Ewan Bonham: Lol... yes..
Eliza Madrigal: as a practical matter, I have found myself consciously remembering, in some moments with people, "this person is not 'other'"
Eliza Madrigal: and it helps to relax the boundaries in a certain way... to hear a little better, see a little more... make room I guess

stevenaia Michinaga: hi san
Bleu Oleander: hi San
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San, glad you're able to be inworld
Santoshima Resident: typ
Santoshima Resident: slow reply ... still some glitches to be worked out
Eliza Madrigal: sure, np

Santoshima Resident: sorry to be late ... please continue
Eliza Madrigal: natural pause :) We've been discussing "others" which led us into considering relationships with pets
Eliza Madrigal: and self

Eliza Madrigal: Stevie, though not on topic, would you say a bit about being "lucky" ?
Ewan Bonham: listening..
stevenaia Michinaga: I think lucky was related to not "losing" child-like spirit
stevenaia Michinaga: where judgement does not exist and exploration is never ending
Eliza Madrigal: nice
stevenaia Michinaga: a place where creativity is not limited by others

Eliza Madrigal: Pila seems to like the word luck, too, so I wondered if there was a particular Taoist notion of it also
Eliza Madrigal: suppose that wide open sense you describe?
stevenaia Michinaga: I think Pila's version of luck relates to everything has meaning
Eliza Madrigal: oh... synchronistic luck?
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, if it happens, it should not be overlooked
stevenaia Michinaga: I call that fate
stevenaia Michinaga: destiny

Eliza Madrigal: hm... actually this relates to others... and relaxing the boundaries between self/others...
Eliza Madrigal: moving from living on a level where things are packaged into something that moves in a different way?

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: what do you mean by the concept of packaged?
stevenaia Michinaga: I supposed that could provide fertile grounds for continued growth and learning, i.e., others become part of you (whether they know it or not)
Eliza Madrigal: solid, I guess Bleu - though not exactly... more like unquestioned categories we touched on earlier
Bleu Oleander: ah ok
Eliza Madrigal: but for me it is a helpful image... like moving from self at center to more interrelatedness to perhaps even further levels of openness
Eliza Madrigal: imperfect metaphors, even the idea of levels
Bleu Oleander: yes

Bleu Oleander: I see self as a process that is fluid
Ewan Bonham: Perhaps transitions?
Eliza Madrigal listens
stevenaia Michinaga: I like the concept of fluid, seems so less plateau -like than levels
stevenaia Michinaga: or flow
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: yes for me too
Eliza Madrigal: there seems a process ... a kind of opening and returning
Bleu Oleander: permits changes in many directions
Ewan Bonham: yes..
Ewan Bonham: like the tides..
Eliza Madrigal: self in synchronistic flow... nice images

stevenaia Michinaga: time to flow to bed
stevenaia Michinaga: night
Eliza Madrigal: me too :)
Santoshima Resident: good night
Eliza Madrigal: Night everybody it was lovely to be with you all
Bleu Oleander: nite steve
Bleu Oleander: thanks everyone
Bleu Oleander: take care
Eliza Madrigal: pleasant dreams, tc <3
Ewan Bonham: Bye for now..
Bleu Oleander: bye :)