The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Self esteem and different cultures:

Bleu (bleu.oleander): hiya Zen :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Bleu :)
Zen (zen.arado): white smoke coming out of chimney here
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hehe
Zen (zen.arado): must be a new SL Pope
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ha!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): quiet here today?
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): it's an hour earlier for me too
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ah yes forgot that
Zen (zen.arado): keep having to remember this for all meetings
Bleu (bleu.oleander): i'm on SL time now so easy for me
Zen (zen.arado): sometimes I forget
Zen (zen.arado): I am researching self esteem
Bleu (bleu.oleander): oh interesting topic
Zen (zen.arado): they were talking about disability and self esteem at a meeting last night
Zen (zen.arado): to me it is something to be dropped
Zen (zen.arado): but everyone else thinks it important
Zen (zen.arado): shrugs
Bleu (bleu.oleander): in some ways anything you perceive to be different from others about yourself I think can affect self esteem
Zen (zen.arado): I just don't see the need to keep comparing yourself with others all the time
Zen (zen.arado): just do what this organism does
Bleu (bleu.oleander): unconsciously I think we do all the time
Zen (zen.arado): I am better than some at some things
Zen (zen.arado): worse at others
Zen (zen.arado): so what?
Zen (zen.arado): we seem to be brought to do it
Zen (zen.arado): up
Zen (zen.arado): it's kind of always evaluating yourself
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes our parents try to give us self esteem ... make us feel good about ourselves
Zen (zen.arado): mkine didn't
Zen (zen.arado): mine
Bleu (bleu.oleander): really?
Zen (zen.arado): oh no
Zen (zen.arado): Americans do that
Zen (zen.arado): not N.Irish
Bleu (bleu.oleander): only Americans?
Zen (zen.arado): well
Zen (zen.arado): they seem to do it better
Zen (zen.arado): just an opinion
Bleu (bleu.oleander): kinda lumping us all into one concept?
Zen (zen.arado): no proof of that
Zen (zen.arado): just an impression I have
Bleu (bleu.oleander): from meeting Americans?
Zen (zen.arado): and reading
Zen (zen.arado): a feeling of the culture
Bleu (bleu.oleander): an interesting question might be how do people form opinions of entire countries?
Zen (zen.arado): of course I remember talking to Americans who have same disability as myself
Zen (zen.arado): and they got harsh criticism from parents
Bleu (bleu.oleander): criticism for their disabilities?
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): seems cruel
Zen (zen.arado): non understanding parents
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I don't think all parents are like that
Zen (zen.arado): told to lift their feet when walking
Bleu (bleu.oleander): perhaps a lot more is known about your disability now?
Zen (zen.arado): my parents shouted at me to do that too
Zen (zen.arado): but they didn't realise I had disability at the time
Bleu (bleu.oleander): perhaps they didn't know?
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): not everyone is understanding about disability
Zen (zen.arado): especially back then
Zen (zen.arado): attitudes are better now
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes, but sometimes it is ignorance?
Zen (zen.arado): nowadays parents stick kids' pictures on fridges
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hmmm ... guilty ... have photos of pups on the fridge hehe
Zen (zen.arado): there seemd to be a fear of kids getting big headed about themsleves
Zen (zen.arado): they would then misbehave was the theory
Bleu (bleu.oleander): Cat says PaB is back
Bleu (bleu.oleander): shall we go there?
Zen (zen.arado): 'too big for their boots'
Zen (zen.arado): ah ok
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ok c u there
Zen (zen.arado): sure

We moved back to pavilion from Kira after restart:

Riddle Sideways: Hi Catrin
Riddle Sideways: did the world just restart
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I guess it must have I just logged in :)
Riddle Sideways: Zen and bleu may still be at cafe
Catrinamonblue Resident: looks like :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Just asked Bleu :)
Riddle Sideways: too busy today to claim and edit the log
Riddle Sideways: will get zen to do it :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Blue says they are coming here
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Riddle Sideways: wb
Bleu Oleander: hiya :)
Riddle Sideways: did our SL stop
Zen Arado: Hi Riddle, Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi guys :)
Zen Arado: did our Kira stop
Bleu Oleander: something stopped :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Zen Arado: we were talking about dropping self esteem
Bleu Oleander: yes interesting subject
Catrinamonblue Resident: listens
Zen Arado: at least it interests me but everyone else thinks it is valuable
Zen Arado: and something we need
Riddle Sideways: good.! it just gets in the way
Zen Arado: Hi Xirana :)

Riddle Sideways: Hi Xir
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Xir
Zen Arado: it strengthens idea of a self
Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Zen, Cat, Bleu, Rid! :-)
Zen Arado: is that a good thing?

Self Esteem - is it necessary?

Bleu Oleander: def: term used in psychology to reflect a person's overall emotional evaluation of his or her own worth.
Zen Arado: why do we need to keep evaluating ourselves?
Bleu Oleander: need is more to feel good about one's self I think
Riddle Sideways: usually a wrong value
Bleu Oleander: related to confidence?
Zen Arado: if I compare myself with someone who is better than me at something I will not feel good
Zen Arado: why do we need to feel good about ourselves?
Bleu Oleander: related to "bench marks"
Zen Arado: why not just take satisfaction in what we do?
Riddle Sideways: if today's number is lower than yesterday's it creates worry
Zen Arado: yes
Xirana Oximoxi: about ourselves I am not sure...but 'with' ourselves is very important :)) if there's a difference :)
Bleu Oleander: satisfaction with self is feeling good about one's self I think, to me anyway
Zen Arado: you can even worry about having low self esteem
Riddle Sideways: an artificial number that will almost always cause problems
Zen Arado: can't we just find satisfaction in accomplishing something?
Bleu Oleander: I think all things in balance is a goal perhaps
Zen Arado: just for itself?
Bleu Oleander: perhaps says the same thing?
Xirana Oximoxi: it's a matter to accept ourselves as we are, with limitations and with good and not so good things
Zen Arado: instead of worrying if I did that better thaN others?
Zen Arado: yes Xiri

Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi :) get to stay in the pavilion today I guess. Sorry to arrive at the bell - have a knack for that lately
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Eliza :-)
Bleu Oleander: so if we accept ourselves as we are, at what point do we start accepting ourselves? as babies, as adults, don't we always evolve?
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Eliza :)
Zen Arado: talking about self esteem and if it should be dropped Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: great, will listen :)
Zen Arado: an evolving acceptance?
Xirana Oximoxi: the best would be to be educated according to our best capacitties....each one having different tendencies
Bleu Oleander: yes Zen :)
Zen Arado: it's more a negative thing to me
Bleu Oleander: how so?
Zen Arado: not comparing myself with others
Eliza Madrigal: agree Xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Bleu Oleander: what about comparing yourself to yourself?
Zen Arado: which I would need to do to have high self esteem?
Bleu Oleander: using yourself as a bench mark?
Zen Arado: but that doesn't make sense?
Xirana Oximoxi: too complicated Bleu:) why should we do?
Riddle Sideways: even comparing yourself is problematic
Zen Arado: need standard?
Bleu Oleander: I think we do it all the time
Eliza Madrigal: to past and future self?
Bleu Oleander: or we would never move on
Zen Arado: how could I have high unless there is a low?
Zen Arado: we would be up and down all the time
Bleu Oleander: we have a sense that we make progress in different areas of our lives
Zen Arado: when self esteem gets dented
Bleu Oleander: we don't stay the same
Xirana Oximoxi: I don't have the sensation of comparing myself to myself...if I do, it must be unconsciuos
Zen Arado: yes but do we need to evaluate?
Bleu Oleander: so we follow paths that we feel are better than others?
Zen Arado: that's the crux I think
Zen Arado: yes
Bleu Oleander: we have to have some way to compare?
Zen Arado: judge effectiveness of what we are doing
Bleu Oleander: how would we choose otherwise?

Self is an impersonal thing?

Zen Arado: but it's impersonal is what I am trying to say
Bleu Oleander: we constantly do that, compare and make choices
Zen Arado: yes
Bleu Oleander: not at all
Bleu Oleander: very personal
Bleu Oleander: who else makes those choices?
Zen Arado: I don't need to think, 'hey aren't I great' if I do a good job of something

Bleu Oleander: hi San :)
Zen Arado: Hi San :)
Santoshima Resident: hello :)
Riddle Sideways: Hi San
Xirana Oximoxi: I agree that we take choices...but, I learn from others choices to improve mine
Zen Arado: or vice versa, 'hey I'm a useless guardian'
Bleu Oleander: I think that's an extreme Zen ... one can just say that worked out well so i'll continue or that didn't so I won't?
Zen Arado: more likely with me :)

Catrinamonblue Resident: self esteem to me is related to how I feel about me, not incomparison to others but within the confines of myself and my emotions, how I am able to handle the life stresses everyday. Whether I curl up in a ball and never look at the world or whether I stand up and meet it head on.

Zen Arado: ok yes Cat
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San
Zen Arado: so it's a practical thing then?
Catrinamonblue Resident: to me yes
Santoshima Resident: greetings
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi San :)
Bleu Oleander: how one feels about one's self can be related to how one feels about others and the comparisons to them
Zen Arado: Hi Sunji :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi San :)
Riddle Sideways: Sunji
Bleu Oleander: Sunji :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Sunji:)
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi sun :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sun

Zen Arado: but if I just do what I do to the best of my ability what's wrong with that?
szavanna Resident: ( takes long to say hello °͜°
Zen Arado: it's all I can do
Bleu Oleander: "best" ... there's a judgement?
Eliza Madrigal: we're very different as creatures measuring ourselves in the world... one daughter in a dance recital when little went in all the wrong directions, tripped everyone else up and got off stage and said "I was the best" - another got all her moves right and encouraged everyone else and left the stage weeping
Zen Arado: but not evaluation of 'me' but of what is being done?
Zen Arado: heh yes Eliza
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods to Eliza
Santoshima Resident: discernment
Bleu Oleander: well, who is doing it?
Zen Arado: that's the problem to me
Bleu Oleander: I don't see it as a problem ... perhaps a problem with me?
Zen Arado: part of us is noticing how well it is going?
Eliza Madrigal: it just showed where they started from, a certain tendency
Bleu Oleander: related to self esteem
Zen Arado: that self concern can give us problems I think
Zen Arado: it either gives us pride which is dashed usually
Bleu Oleander: a balance is useful
Zen Arado: or feeling bad because we didn't do well
Bleu Oleander: I don't tend to view the extremes
Bleu Oleander: somewhere in the middle range is ok for me
Zen Arado: self concern might take us to extremes though?
Zen Arado: I am the greatest
Zen Arado: or I am useless
Bleu Oleander: I never say either of those, do you?
Zen Arado: have done
Eliza Madrigal: we don't use the word esteem often during our time, outside of the context of self esteem... maybe that's part of the question
Bleu Oleander: really?
Zen Arado: oh yes
Xirana Oximoxi: :))
Zen Arado: I can be very hard on myself mainly
szavanna Resident: ;p
Zen Arado: :)
szavanna Resident: hehe
Bleu Oleander: so maybe you need more self esteem?
Zen Arado: self esteem raiser

Zen Arado: it's just that I am so humble and modest :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: more than any of you ;)
Xirana Oximoxi: :))
Bleu Oleander: u r a wonderful being just as you are and you shouldn't be so hard on yourself
szavanna Resident tickles Zenji

Catrinamonblue Resident: we all evaluate ourselves on some level sometimes in comparison with others sometimes only within ourselves, and finding ourselves not measuring up we wonder if maybe it's the measuring stick that is the problem

Zen Arado: if I have high self esteem what do I do when events show me I am useless at something?
Eliza Madrigal: you think that perhaps you can rise to meet them
Eliza Madrigal: or learn from them in some way
Bleu Oleander: don't define yourself by events
Zen Arado: so I keep doing something I am useless at?
Bleu Oleander: try something else?
Eliza Madrigal: mhm
Xirana Oximoxi: if you are having fun...keep doing, even if it's useless:))
Eliza Madrigal: you wouldn't extrapolate that into extremes of "see I am rubbish at everything" if healthily esteeming perhaps
Zen Arado: yeh ok
szavanna Resident agrees with Xiri
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes keep doing something you are useless at then you won't be useless at it after much practice
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Zen Arado: might think I am the greatest though
Bleu Oleander: the greatest at being useless hehe
szavanna Resident: ;p
Zen Arado: and everyone else would know I'm not
Bleu Oleander: :P
Catrinamonblue Resident: so you might be the greatest who is to judge that?
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: it has a lot to do with context too... we're not all the best fit for all situations
Zen Arado: exactly
Bleu Oleander: yes
szavanna Resident: so true Liz
Eliza Madrigal: have tried to fit myself into many moulds that were never going to work... could have done it externally but it wouldn't have felt right - lots of effort in that
Bleu Oleander: that's reserved for Superman :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: life is short too
Bleu Oleander: and brutish
szavanna Resident: hmm yes
Zen Arado: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: if it is something that brings you joy then I say do it, it doesn't matter about anything else or anyone else
Eliza Madrigal: I really wanted to fit in with the mommies in my neighborhood but was really exhuasted by the dynamics and eventually came online instead :)
Zen Arado: poor, nasty, brutish and short
Zen Arado: yes good idea Cat
Eliza Madrigal: nice, Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
szavanna Resident: Liz there is a new mom that is chasing me!

Riddle Sideways: ah, the amount of time needed to calc the hundreds of values that an I am better or worse this moment against many many historic values. to arrive at 50%

Eliza Madrigal giggles
Riddle Sideways: what a waist of time
szavanna Resident: for some reason hmm :)
Zen Arado: yeh Riddle
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal chases Sun

Zen Arado: I gave up trying to play guitar
szavanna Resident: lol - runs to PaB
Zen Arado: though I love the instrument
szavanna Resident: why Zenji
Zen Arado: but hands too weak
Eliza Madrigal: your having tried it may give you a greater appreciation
szavanna Resident: hmm ok I understand
Zen Arado: flogging a dead horse
Catrinamonblue Resident: but does it bring you joy?
Catrinamonblue Resident: it doesn't matter how good or bad you are
Zen Arado: no because I am so useless
Catrinamonblue Resident: you my dear friend are NOT useless
Eliza Madrigal: someone who has tried to cook can taste more ingredients in something they're served
Zen Arado: I can't paly well enough to get any pleasure from it
Zen Arado: I am at guitar playing :)
Zen Arado: oh yes I played guitar for years
Eliza Madrigal: so that's worthy endeavor
Bleu Oleander: taught myself guitar once hehe
Riddle Sideways: someone who has slapped paint on canvas appreciates a sunrise anew
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Bleu Oleander: decided I was not a natural
Zen Arado: plenty of other things to do
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Zen Arado: yes Riddle
szavanna Resident: hmm one should do whatever you enjoy
Bleu Oleander: and it would take too much money and time to convert me to all-star guitarist haha!
Xirana Oximoxi: in my view you are clever enough to drive your creativity to other fields Zen...for exemple writitng... :-)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
szavanna Resident: can I try?
szavanna Resident: ;D
Riddle Sideways: the guitar plays me now. and is a source of great joy

Zen Arado: learning about how to write makes me appreciate the books I am reading better too
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: yes Xiri :)
Eliza Madrigal: a kind of mastery Riddle.. but you could have spent that painting :)
szavanna Resident gets the guitar
Eliza Madrigal: that time*
Xirana Oximoxi: and yes...learning about how to write makes reading other's books more interesting :)
Zen Arado: happy amateurism
Eliza Madrigal: :)
szavanna Resident: yes Zenji
szavanna Resident: as soon as you become a pro
szavanna Resident: the joy is gone
Bleu Oleander: fun to try though and the process can be fun
szavanna Resident: often
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: agreed
Bleu Oleander: so what makes a "pro"?
Zen Arado: so I can drop having self esteem?
Eliza Madrigal: value simply in trying things on and relating
szavanna Resident: hmm not the amount of money he/she makes
Bleu Oleander: not yet haha!
Riddle Sideways: seems good idea, zenji
Zen Arado: :)
szavanna Resident: I think - you must remain a happy amateur - even if you are a pro
Zen Arado: not unaminous
Bleu Oleander: what makes self esteem so bad to you?
Eliza Madrigal: yes Sun!
Zen Arado: unanimous
szavanna Resident: like Zakir Hussain

Bleu Oleander: yes Sunji
Bleu Oleander: self esteem as a feeling of self worth, as a valuable being ... is that a bad thing?
szavanna Resident: I always think of him - he has this childlike excitement when he plays
Zen Arado: bottom line is I think 'self' is an illusion and esteeming it strengthens illusion and causes suffering
szavanna Resident: no not at all - as long as you acknowledge the same in others
Bleu Oleander: one point of view
Bleu Oleander: yes Sunji
Zen Arado: oh yes
Zen Arado: just my perspective
Bleu Oleander: does your perspective give you happiness?
Eliza Madrigal: but intentionally not esteeming it seems the same thing to me
Zen Arado: maybe others need that feeling of self esteem
szavanna Resident: I do
Zen Arado: I don't often ask myself 'am I happy?'
szavanna Resident: sigh in RL I really miss it
Zen Arado: I just be whatever

Eliza Madrigal: can we appreciate the play of self even seeing through it as illusory?
Zen Arado: if I notice I am feeling unhappy I investigate the feeling
szavanna Resident: hmm nice question
Zen Arado: great! something to work on :)
Bleu Oleander: I see self as a process not as a thing to be dropped, for me anyway
Zen Arado: oh yes Eliza
Zen Arado: that's what I try to do
Eliza Madrigal: I guess I am picturing a sandbox and playing with a friend... we are making things but what we're really showing is our selves in a way
szavanna Resident: but who are we talking to - if you are not Zenji
Bleu Oleander: I recognize that the self process creates the illusion of "a self"
Zen Arado: an everchanging process
Eliza Madrigal: showing/sharing
Riddle Sideways: need to Stop
Riddle Sideways: bye all and thanks
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: bye Riddle
Zen Arado: kk byee Riddle
Bleu Oleander: bye Riddle :)
szavanna Resident: take care Riddle °͜°
Zen Arado: ty for coming
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Riddle
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Rid...happy stop :))

szavanna Resident: °͜° Xiri I was planning to say that
Bleu Oleander: hehe
szavanna Resident: ;p
Xirana Oximoxi: hehe we 've connected thoughts:)
Bleu Oleander: type faster :)
Zen Arado: that's what we do here..notice this self illusion and allow it to play?
Bleu Oleander: yes
szavanna Resident: ;D yes but Xiri is in Europe
Eliza Madrigal: :))
szavanna Resident: she will always win hehe
Bleu Oleander: :D
szavanna Resident: my connection is slow
szavanna Resident: ok I stop joking ;D
Xirana Oximoxi: ahhh :))
Eliza Madrigal: what amazing sand sculptures we make together
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Zen Arado: yes we can enjoy our different viewpoints and attributes
Zen Arado: our uniqueness
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Bleu Oleander: who's viewpoints?
Zen Arado: it would be so boring if we all thought the same
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eliza Madrigal: we each have diff tools... some shovels and some buckets... lol (I can take this too far)
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Zen Arado: the temporary thoughts of this organism ;)
Zen Arado: this process
Zen Arado: it will have changed by tomorrow
Catrinamonblue Resident: loves to be made to think in differnt directions, even ones I don't agree with :)
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: yay :)
Zen Arado: it won't agree with what it thought today
Xirana Oximoxi: I must go now.... take care all and see you soon.... :)
Eliza Madrigal: tc Xiri :)
Zen Arado: byee Xiri :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Xiri :)
Bleu Oleander: bye Xiri :)

'Impersonal self' view dangerous?

Bleu Oleander: I don't like to speak about myself as an "it" so perhaps too impersonal a view for me to adopt
Zen Arado: seems like that for most I think Bleu
Zen Arado: takes a long time to see it that way
Zen Arado: but I started with the belief that this is so
Bleu Oleander: I think referring to individuals as "its" is a dangerous approach
Zen Arado: still find it hard to accept and fall into old way
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Zenji, everybody... really interesting discussion and distinctions
szavanna Resident: brb
Eliza Madrigal: look forward to reading the rest of the session
Zen Arado: byee Eliza
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Eliza :)
Bleu Oleander: bye Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now
Zen Arado: see what you mean Bleu
Bleu Oleander: for me anyway
Zen Arado: like not something to be respected
Bleu Oleander: exactly
Bleu Oleander: dif between people and rocks to me
Zen Arado: but we should respect everything and everbody
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: maybe that is natural
Bleu Oleander: but we wouldn't send a rock to prison for harming another rock :)
Zen Arado: many more disrepected because of ideologies

Zen Arado: many are starting to question moral basis of legal system
Bleu Oleander: yes, some systems are better than others
Bleu Oleander: and all can be improved
Zen Arado: that neuroscientist, David Eagleman, does
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: but that's another big topic
Bleu Oleander: he has some very interesting ideas
Bleu Oleander: yes for another time perhaps?
Zen Arado: I need to go do some work in RL
szavanna Resident: back °͜°
Bleu Oleander: must get to work ... sighs
Zen Arado: yes
Bleu Oleander: ok take care Zenji and Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Zen
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: bye for now :)
Zen Arado: kk ty for coming all
szavanna Resident: ok remember to let me know if you need building help
Zen Arado: byee
szavanna Resident: today is class at noon °͜°
Zen Arado: yes sure
Bleu Oleander: bye Sunji :)
Bleu Oleander: i'll be there
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Sun :)
szavanna Resident: byebyeeee
Zen Arado: hope to make it
Zen Arado: byee
Bleu Oleander: byeee
szavanna Resident: no rush
szavanna Resident: °͜°
szavanna Resident: waves
Bleu Oleander waves to all