2013.05.26 13:00 - Prison Windows

eliza posted this session from the auto-listener database...

[13:04] Bruce Mowbray: Beautiful scenery!
[13:06] Rosatta Resident: Hi, Bruce : )
[13:07] Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Rosatta!
[13:07] Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol!
[13:07] Wol Euler: hello rosatta, bruce
[13:07] Bruce Mowbray: Beautiful scenery!
[13:07] Rosatta Resident: It is : )
[13:07] Rosatta Resident: I don't know who put it up for us
[13:08] Wol Euler: either Bleu or Eliza, I'd guess
[13:08] Bruce Mowbray wonders if SL has sim savers -- like Windows has screen savers.
[13:08] Bruce Mowbray: It looks a lot like the view out the window behind my typist's computer.
[13:09] Bruce Mowbray goes to find a photo of it.

[13:09] Rosatta Resident: When do the topics change - on Sunday or Monday?
[13:10] Bruce Mowbray: On Sunday, I think.
[13:10] Wol Euler: whenever we want, I guess :)
[13:10] Rosatta Resident: lol
[13:10] Wol Euler: feel free to choose whichever appeals most
[13:10] Bruce Mowbray: There's a photo of a redheaded woodpecker right outside the window behind my computer.
[13:10] Rosatta Resident: I was wondering because the Gaurdian meetings are on Sundays and that would mean the new topics would be available on Monday, but maybe they are a week ahead so the changes are on Sunday
[13:11] Rosatta Resident: Details, details, details
[13:11] Wol Euler: I really think it doesn't matter that much :)

[13:11] Wol Euler: "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath"
[13:11] Wol Euler: to coin a phrase
[13:11] Bruce Mowbray: A really GOOD phrase that was, too.

[13:11] Rosatta Resident: Your forest view is lovely, Bruce
[13:11] Bruce Mowbray: Thanks. I love it too.
[13:11] Rosatta Resident: Ty, Wol. I'm happy to go with that
[13:12] Wol Euler: nice, bruce!
[13:12] Wol Euler: it took me a while to work out what it was
[13:12] Bruce Mowbray: Was there a topic on your mind, Rosatta?
[13:12] Bruce Mowbray: Something you'd like to talk about?
[13:13] Rosatta Resident: I was actually thinking of how 'Freshness' didn't seem to be getting much focus and I was wondering about trying for one last day
[13:14] Rosatta Resident: But if the topic has changed, that would make that not part of the flow
[13:14] Bruce Mowbray: (Unfortunately, I cannot attend Guardian meetings because they happen at exactly the same hour as my typist's Quaker Meetings.
[13:14] Bruce Mowbray: Sure! Freshness !
[13:14] Rosatta Resident: Do you go online or in person?
[13:14] Bruce Mowbray: I have done both -- for Quaker Mtgs.
[13:14] Bruce Mowbray: but this time I'm referring to RL Meeting.

[13:16] Rosatta Resident: In some ways there are a similarities between PaB daily at the pavilion and Quaker meetings - the sitting and listening and then sharing
[13:16] Bruce Mowbray: Yes, there is a keen similarity.
[13:17] Bruce Mowbray: And I mix the two, often.
[13:17] Bruce Mowbray: Like after Meeting today, I talked about "freshness."
[13:17] Bruce Mowbray: in terms of being "entrenched" or having preferences and prejudices in a "rut" sort of way.
[13:18] Bruce Mowbray: "in-trenched" to coin a phrase, as it were ;-)
[13:18] Wol Euler smiles.
[13:18] Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

[13:19] Bruce Mowbray: Then, someone said that we needed our "trenches."
[13:19] Bruce Mowbray: That we have survived for millions of years by having trenches to retreat to.
[13:19] Wol Euler: because ... ?
[13:19] Wol Euler: ah

[13:19] Bruce Mowbray: our routines have saved us, to coin one more phrase.
[13:19] Bruce Mowbray: But they have also suffocated us, perhaps.

[13:20] Wol Euler: many of the trenches that were useful to us 200,000 years ago are irrelevant to our lives and society now
[13:20] Wol Euler: we've gone well beyond subsistence agriculture and hunting-and-gathering, for example
[13:21] Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes.... and yet there is this vestigial stuff.... maybe even in our DNA.
[13:21] Wol Euler: definitely, and in our minds too
[13:21] Bruce Mowbray: "Be very afraid of anything different from US."
[13:21] Bruce Mowbray: "Be very afraid of change."
[13:21] Bruce Mowbray: "Be very afraid of everything that everyone else is afraid of."
[13:22] Wol Euler: "everyone outside of the clan is a potential enemy"
[13:22] Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes.

[13:22] Bruce Mowbray: So, we bring vestigial DNA to a global worldview...
[13:22] Wol Euler: which could use a little freshening up
[13:22] Bruce Mowbray: Indeed.

[13:22] Rosatta Resident: the collective unconscious?
[13:22] Bruce Mowbray: I think that what saves us from ourselves is childhood.
[13:23] Bruce Mowbray: Yes, collective unconscious is another (better) way to say what I was meaning.
[13:23] Bruce Mowbray: Children don't buy the old ways so easily...
[13:23] Rosatta Resident: Do you think the collective unconscious in part of our DNA?
[13:23] Bruce Mowbray: They have friends who are vastly "different" from themselves, for example.
[13:24] Bruce Mowbray: I do, yes.
[13:24] Bruce Mowbray: I think we inherit many "habits" -- just as we inherit our physical stuff.
[13:24] Rosatta Resident: I hadn't thought of that before. lol, well, I just hadn't thought about it much at all, really

[13:24] Bruce Mowbray: many "trenches" in our thinking.
[13:24] Bruce Mowbray: Sort of like "attractors" in math...
[13:25] Rosatta Resident: I can see that as true in ethnic groups. The way ethnic groups move physically are different than each other
[13:25] Bruce Mowbray: Things float around and eventually get "pulled" into a thought-vortex -- sort of.
[13:25] Rosatta Resident: On example, in the US those with strong African American ancestory move very similarly to those I've seen in films of Africa
[13:25] Bruce Mowbray: Really? That is fascinating, Rosatta.
[13:25] Rosatta Resident: And no one non-Chinese can make a Chinese dragon move the same way
[13:25] Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.
[13:26] Bruce Mowbray ponders . . .

[13:26] Rosatta Resident: I can tell if someone dancing a Chinese dragon is Chinese or not by the way the dragon moves
[13:26] Bruce Mowbray: Wow.
[13:26] Rosatta Resident: It's truly beautiful - each genetic lineage has it's own 'dance'
[13:26] Bruce Mowbray: I'm supposing that the same might be said of first-American ritual dances....
[13:26] Bruce Mowbray: Us white guys just can't make a go of it.
[13:27] Rosatta Resident: Yes, that kind of thng

[13:27] Bruce Mowbray: But look at the 'danger' in this . . .
[13:27] Bruce Mowbray: danger of sterotypies, rather than appreciation for differences.
[13:28] Rosatta Resident: Ah, well, I know you and Wol aren't into that kind of negativity
[13:28] Rosatta Resident: I'm careful who I say these things to
[13:28] Rosatta Resident: When I watch a Chinese dragon, I want Chinese men dancing it - it just doenst' look right otherwise
[13:28] Bruce Mowbray: My scariest "trenches" are the ones I'm not yet aware of in myself....
[13:28] Bruce Mowbray: Every so often they pop out. . .
[13:29] Wol Euler nods.
[13:29] Rosatta Resident: And though whites become fabulous martial artists, I still would rather watch someone from the ethinc background where it developed - it just looks better

[13:29] Bruce Mowbray: And almost always, they reveal something that I didn't like in myself, but was refusing to admit to.
[13:30] Wol Euler: of course :) there's no reason for our minds to hide from us aspects of self that we would be pleased with
[13:31] Rosatta Resident: Unless raised in such a way that acknowledgment of talents and strengths was forbidden. I am one of those and I've met people with that same struggle
[13:31] Wol Euler: good point

[13:32] Bruce Mowbray: Fear begets fear; shame begets shame.
[13:32] Rosatta Resident: Yes
[13:32] Bruce Mowbray: Children who are ashamed of themselves are usually the progeny of parents also ashamed of themselves. . . for being what they are.
[13:32] Bruce Mowbray: So sad.
[13:33] Bruce Mowbray: So unnecessary, really.
[13:34] Rosatta Resident: Or sociopaths/psychopaths or narcissits
[13:34] Bruce Mowbray: But there is "hope" in children - - hope for a fresh way of viewing self and world.

[13:35] Bruce Mowbray: I think at the core of every narcissist is someone who doesn't like himself very much. . . so over-compensates his self-worth through narcissism.
[13:35] Rosatta Resident: Hope to change the world and maybe even save it - if given the role-modeling, knowledge and tools
[13:35] Rosatta Resident: Ah, you need to meet my family
[13:36] Bruce Mowbray: I taught in a state prison for eight years, and i met a lot of sociopaths....
[13:36] Rosatta Resident: And my mother-in-law - she loves herself
[13:36] Bruce Mowbray: (or MY family, Rosatta!)
[13:36] Bruce Mowbray: The "bottom-line" for sociopaths is "I'M OK and NO ONE ELSE IS"
[13:36] Wol Euler nods.
[13:36] Rosatta Resident: That is what I've experinced, yes
[13:36] Wol Euler: cannot feel good except by thinking others bad
[13:36] Bruce Mowbray: so I can steal, lie, cheat, kill, whatever -- because none of you are OK. . . only me.
[13:36] Rosatta Resident: And no one else is allowed to be ok
[13:37] Bruce Mowbray: right.
[13:37] Rosatta Resident: What Wol said
[13:37] Bruce Mowbray: It is a form of mental illness, I think.
[13:37] Bruce Mowbray: sad.
[13:37] Rosatta Resident: Their brains scan differently than people with active consciences
[13:38] Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I think that will eventually be demonstrated with functional MRI's.
[13:38] Rosatta Resident: It has been already
[13:38] Bruce Mowbray: and there is much danger in that, also.
[13:38] Rosatta Resident: There are some who are wondering if it is a birth defect in the structure of the brain
[13:38] Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
[13:38] Bruce Mowbray: or homoral deficincies, perhaps.
[13:38] Bruce Mowbray: during the fetal stages...

[13:38] Rosatta Resident: Then there are secondary sociopaths and psychopaths - learned behavior
[13:38] Bruce Mowbray: oh yes.
[13:39] Bruce Mowbray: That's one reasons that prisons make criminals worse...
[13:39] Bruce Mowbray: especially the younger ones.
[13:39] Bruce Mowbray: learned behavior.
[13:39] Wol Euler: mmhmm
[13:39] Bruce Mowbray: I'm speaking of American prisons, though.
[13:40] Bruce Mowbray: all that i know about, first-hand, as it were.
[13:40] Bruce Mowbray: To call them "correctional institutions or "rehabilitation centers" is a joke...
[13:41] Rosatta Resident: Well, the Quakers tried to make them rehabilitation places
[13:41] Bruce Mowbray: very few are "corrected" unless the decide to do that for themselves in SPITE of the system.

[13:41] Rosatta Resident: Places of self-reflection and learning a skill
[13:41] Bruce Mowbray: Yes, the Quakers called the "penitentiaries" -- where guys went to do penance.
[13:41] Wol Euler: I have a cousin who works in a prison in Canada, to hear him tell it there is no hint of rehabilitation

[13:42] Rosatta Resident: Every time I get involved in anything that has any kind of politics it looks to me like the pavilion when every one is doing that onok - thingy

[13:42] Bruce Mowbray: not a hint, for sure.
[13:42] Wol Euler: also definitely from the inmates. They don't say "I will change and get a proper job", instead they say "next time ..."
[13:42] Bruce Mowbray: UNLESS the individual prisoner decides to do it for himself.
[13:42] Wol Euler: yep
[13:42] Rosatta Resident: That's where people who volunteer can make all the difference

[13:43] Bruce Mowbray: I knew a guy doing his ELEVENTH sentence --- and all he could do was blame the sheriff for being "out to get him."
[13:43] Bruce Mowbray: As long as that was his attitude, he would return again and again.
[13:43] Bruce Mowbray: But one of my very best friends in the world is doing 5 life sentences...
[13:44] Bruce Mowbray: and Mike has done better work on himself than anyone i know in life -- inside or out.
[13:44] Rosatta Resident looks at Bruce wondering if he has fallen into the clutches of a manipulator
[13:44] Bruce Mowbray: He's never going to get out -- so best to use the time as well as possible.

[13:44] Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen.
[13:44] Bruce Mowbray: Yes, others have wondered that also.
[13:44] Zen Arado: Hi all
[13:46] Bruce Mowbray: Mike was my inmate clerk for two years, and we have corresponded for thirty years, so I feel I know him quite well. I'm not being manipulated.
[13:46] Rosatta Resident: Not trying to be rude, but how many women therapists end up being seduced by a guy in prison and everyone but them knows they have been badly misled? Charm is the 'bait' on a psychopath's hook
[13:46] Wol Euler: hello zen
[13:46] Rosatta Resident: Hi, Zen.
[13:46] Rosatta Resident: I won't say anything more

[13:47] Bruce Mowbray: I agree with you on that one, but I also know Mike.
[13:47] Rosatta Resident: It's none of my business, Bruce. I'm sorry
[13:47] Bruce Mowbray: no problem!
[13:47] Bruce Mowbray: I brought it into the discussion....
[13:47] Bruce Mowbray: actually, he looks out for my interests better than I do.
[13:48] Bruce Mowbray: warns me of things... etc.

[13:49] Bruce Mowbray: Closest word i can think of for Mike is "transformed" person. . . So, I sometimes think his getting locked up for life might have been the best thing for him.
[13:49] Bruce Mowbray: But it doesn't matter what i think. He is where he is, so on with making the most of it.
[13:50] Bruce Mowbray: Prison can become ashrams, you know, if the individual chooses it to be so.
[13:50] Bruce Mowbray: I'm now thinking of the Prison Mindfulness Institute.
[13:50] Zen Arado: nods
[13:51] Wol Euler: is there such a thing?
[13:51] Bruce Mowbray: I will find their wenbsiet -- just a sec.
[13:51] Bruce Mowbray: website.
[13:51] Zen Arado: novels paint a horrific picture of American prisons
[13:52] Rosatta Resident: They are probably pretty accurate in many
[13:52] Bruce Mowbray: http://www.prisonmindfulnessinitiative.org/
[13:52] Bruce Mowbray: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_...ness_Institute

[13:52] Rosatta Resident: We have a women's prison here and it isn't abusive or dangerous in the way that men's prison's can be, and I have met many women who have been offered many things
[13:53] Rosatta Resident: to help them recover from addiction, alcoholism,
[13:53] Rosatta Resident: to get education and many other things
[13:53] Rosatta Resident: It is not a 'nice' environement' but it is acceptable and help;ful for those who will accept help
[13:53] Bruce Mowbray: That's great, Rosatta. I hope they utilize what's available to them there.

[13:54] Zen Arado: many IRA and UVF terrorists in N.Ireland went into prison, studied degrees and became politicians when they came out
[13:54] Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
[13:55] Bruce Mowbray: During a gurads' strike back in the 70's, I had to be a "guard" in a dormitory for a week. . . It was HELL.
[13:55] Rosatta Resident: Many do. It's hard changing oneself that much and once 'institutionalized' the adjustment can be very painful
[13:55] Bruce Mowbray: But all the guys were super nice to me -- and very protective of me.
[13:55] Bruce Mowbray: Even walked me around the compound to protect me.
[13:56] Bruce Mowbray: 7 days and nights inside the "walls."
[13:56] Bruce Mowbray: I cannot imagine having to live like that my whole life.
[13:56] Wol Euler nods.
[13:56] Bruce Mowbray: I am a FREEDOM guy.
[13:56] Rosatta Resident: Charles Colsons' book "Born Again" details his prison time. He spent much of it under threat that one of the other inmates wanted to kill him
[13:56] Zen Arado: if it was a novel you would have been rgang-raped by big black men
[13:57] Rosatta Resident: Well, white men do it, too
[13:57] Zen Arado: yes read that book when I was a Christian
[13:57] Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. listens.

[13:57] Rosatta Resident: When you were a Christian? Ok, that's funny to me for some reason
[13:57] Bruce Mowbray: (btw. . . is Bert having meditation tonight?)
[13:57] Zen Arado: can't remember anything about it
[13:57] Zen Arado: yes
[13:57] Wol Euler: don't know, he hasn't checked in yet
[13:57] Bruce Mowbray: kk, thanks.
[13:58] Zen Arado: he sent invite
[13:58] Bruce Mowbray: oh.
[13:58] Bruce Mowbray: ok.
[13:58] Bruce Mowbray: I'm heading on over there now, then.
[13:58] Wol Euler: ah yes, quite right
[13:58] Zen Arado: read a lot of Christian books
[13:58] Bruce Mowbray: Be safe and well, folks!
[13:58] Zen Arado: Martin Luther King
[13:58] Wol Euler: see you there, bruce
[13:58] Rosatta Resident: By Bruce : )
[13:58] Wol Euler: I shall go too
[13:59] Wol Euler: bye rosatta, bye for now, zen
[13:59] Rosatta Resident: Good by, everyone
[13:59] Zen Arado: bfn
[13:59] Wol Euler: unless you wish to come, rosatta?
[13:59] Wol Euler: ten minutes silent meditation together?
[13:59] Rosatta Resident: Yes, please : )
[13:59] Rosatta Resident: Where do we go?
[13:59] Wol Euler: great :)
[13:59] Wol Euler: I'll give you the landmark
[14:00] Rosatta Resident: Ty : )