The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Writing course:

Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Zen :)
Zen Arado: I wonder what happened today
Zen Arado: no shutdown
Eliza Madrigal: don't let them hear you say that :)
Zen Arado: I just sent in my final assignment
Zen Arado: yay
Eliza Madrigal: congratulations!
Eliza Madrigal: how do you feel about it all? distance enough to reflect yet?
Zen Arado: we had to reflect on it in the commentary for the last assignment
Zen Arado: how far we had come as a writer
Eliza Madrigal: yes?
Zen Arado: well I think that writing morning pages as made me much more fluent and descriptive
Zen Arado: and I have become much better at redrafting
Zen Arado: although I did a lot of that for my MA dissertation
Eliza Madrigal: redrafting as opposed to first drafting?
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: that's where most of the work is
Zen Arado: especially for poetry
Zen Arado: poetry is continuously polishing words
Zen Arado: finding better ones and rearranging the ones you have
Eliza Madrigal: and do you think these changes in you will remain, or that you have to keep up practices (morning pages, etc)?
Zen Arado: I probably will keep up the practice
Zen Arado: I like doing it anyway
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: it isn't a chore
Zen Arado: it's actually therapeutic as well
Eliza Madrigal: I found my copy of Artists Way yesterday...
Eliza Madrigal: I realized why I had squirreled it away... it is quite God framed
Zen Arado: it isn't a new idea
Eliza Madrigal: well there is still so much of value in there... so I chopped it down into about 15 pages
Eliza Madrigal: similar to Jefferson with the Bible ;-)
Zen Arado: I never quite got the hang of free writing
Zen Arado: I thought I knew what it was
Zen Arado: but I was wrong
Eliza Madrigal: like most things ^^
Zen Arado: what I was doing was focused free writing
Zen Arado: the proper way to do it is to start with something but let that lead you into other things
Zen Arado: so you can finish up anywhere
Eliza Madrigal: the easiest way for me to do that, is to try to stay on the same topic... then for sure I'll wander into millions of directions, lol
Zen Arado: I'm not an imaginative enough I think
Zen Arado: :-)
Zen Arado: I am too disciplined from years of writing philosophy essays
Zen Arado: the worst thing you can do an them is right about something that isn't relevant to the topic
Zen Arado: write
Eliza Madrigal nods....
Zen Arado: so I spent years being relevant and now I find it difficult to be...
Eliza Madrigal: there is great value to that too... precision. It is just appropriate to drop it sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Zen Arado: You have to refocus the writing too
Eliza Madrigal: I wouldn't want my surgeon going off "on his own" ;-)
Zen Arado: tenses can be a big problem
Zen Arado: Ah yes
Eliza Madrigal: tenses and mixed metaphor
Zen Arado: I described going to Zen retreats
Zen Arado: and it is difficult to separate what happened in one particular retreat from what goes on all the time
Zen Arado: my tutor didn't like my initial story about Second Life
Eliza Madrigal: couldn't relate with it well?
Zen Arado: so I wrote another one about my difficulties with attending Zen centres and retreats
Zen Arado: and then finding a group in Second Life
Zen Arado: original face actually
Eliza Madrigal: ah, so you built a bridge for her
Zen Arado: now she's never been in Second Life and not at all attuned to it
Zen Arado: she didn't like my writing in the first story because she says there isn't enough sensory detail
Zen Arado: in Second Life

Zen Arado: Hi Luci
Eliza Madrigal: my contention is that the way to write about SL, is to write about SL itself as a secondary context... a side issue... to write the experiences and story first without it
Zen Arado: Well I did that
Eliza Madrigal: Luci is having a morning jog
Eliza Madrigal waves
Lucinda Lavender: hmmmHI!
Eliza Madrigal: difficulty Luci?
Lucinda Lavender: cannot seem to move...
Eliza Madrigal: on ipad?
Zen Arado: arthritis?
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lucinda Lavender: every time I try to come to SL my computer is told it must download a new verion
Lucinda Lavender: laptop today
Lucinda Lavender: arritis I am sure
Zen Arado: yes I had to download the new version of the Linden lab's viewer before I came on today
Zen Arado: they seem to be updating a a lot lately
Lucinda Lavender: arthritus
Lucinda Lavender: hmmm I have not kept track of the numbers associated with the version
Zen Arado: it's when they make a major change that people get upset
Eliza Madrigal hands you some fish oil tablets
Lucinda Lavender: :))
Lucinda Lavender: thank you Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: most welcome :))
Eliza Madrigal: wonder if there is SL acupuncture
Zen Arado: what is the topic this week?
Eliza Madrigal: being : static or fluid?
Zen Arado: ha ha
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose writing is a good microscope frame for that
Lucinda Lavender: Luci reaches for a nother cup of fluid
Eliza Madrigal: facts and descriptives
Zen Arado: my tutor was told me I should write a book about my Australian experiences
Zen Arado: and feed some of the chapters into magazines
Eliza Madrigal: I agree
Zen Arado: which was nice of her
Eliza Madrigal: with some of your photos included I think they'd make really interesting pieces
Zen Arado: well I'll see
Zen Arado: it is so much work getting pieces up to publishing standard
Eliza Madrigal: so much in old photographs... why I can understand the addiction to genealogy even though I'm not drawn to that research personally
Zen Arado: I really had to learn how to use commas, colons and semicolons
Eliza Madrigal: some say the difference between amateur and professional is the proper use of semicolons :)
Zen Arado: I still have trouble with that
Eliza Madrigal: glad I'm not professional....people hate these little dots I add into everything lol
Eliza Madrigal: (kidding)
Eliza Madrigal: not a professional chatter anyway
Zen Arado: I'm not professional either but they make you try to reach that standard
Zen Arado: especially in punctuation because they say that publishers won't read anything unless it's properly punctuated
Eliza Madrigal: yes, worthwhile... going to be interesting to see how you feel now that the course is over
Lucinda Lavender: For the discussion of fluid and static I suggest this speech I listened to today....http://www.brainpickings.or...ement-address/
Eliza Madrigal clicks
Lucinda Lavender: I havbe to go as it is the last day of my school for this year...
Zen Arado: thanks Lucy
Lucinda Lavender: have a great day all:)
Zen Arado: have a good day you too
Eliza Madrigal: awesome!
Eliza Madrigal: ty Luci
Lucinda Lavender: :))
Eliza Madrigal: enjoy the last day :)
Eliza Madrigal: hm... a day for conclusions

Eliza Madrigal: "You have, which is a rare thing, that ability and the responsibility to listen to the dissent in yourself, to at least give it the floor, because it is the key — not only to consciousness, but to real growth. To accept duality is to earn identity. And identity is something that you are constantly earning. It is not just who you are. It is a process that you must be active in."

Lucinda Lavender: yes...
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful
Lucinda Lavender: sweet day to all
Lucinda Lavender: I thought so too
Eliza Madrigal: hugs
Zen Arado: just skimming through it
Eliza Madrigal: My son and I watched Ken Robinson to start the day ... felt so good afterward ... just something disarming about that guy :)
Zen Arado: but it sounds to me like someone on the way to realising that there is no such thing as identity in the end
Zen Arado: I've never heard of Ken Robinson
Eliza Madrigal: well once you realize that... if that's what you realize, you can more enjoy the contrasts right?
Zen Arado: is he a comedian?
Eliza Madrigal: oh, he is a writer and creativity guy...
Eliza Madrigal: his TED talk is the most viewed in its history
Eliza Madrigal: and I think it is not just because he says sensible things, but because he's delightful and warm
Eliza Madrigal: deeply funny

Nothing really matters:

Zen Arado: sometimes I think Darryl Bailey is right
Zen Arado: he says that all of these ideas and concepts just prove to be contradictions in the end and that life is totally inexplicable
Zen Arado: a mysterious dance
Eliza Madrigal: does seem to be what many wise strugglers come to...
Eliza Madrigal: a sense of life dancing us , of giving up to it
Zen Arado: but as soon as we put a description to it it isn't really right
Zen Arado: it tries to encapsulate something
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: but we still have to do that to survive
Eliza Madrigal: so I like to ask things like "how does this matter right this second?"
Zen Arado: nothing really matters
Zen Arado: as Freddie Mercury said :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :P
Eliza Madrigal: well I am sort of embracing the messiness of the world more lately... not quite comfortable with nothing mattering...
Zen Arado: I was amazed at that conversation in virtual ability last night
Eliza Madrigal: as a practical matter
Eliza Madrigal: oh, me too
Eliza Madrigal: fascinating
Zen Arado: amazed that no one got on their hobby horse too much
Zen Arado: it's very difficult to have a discussion like that
Eliza Madrigal: well I think there were a few, but a greater desire to understand and be understood
Zen Arado: yes it didn't get too bad though
Eliza Madrigal: agree.. not the first time the group has taken on such brave content though
Eliza Madrigal: not too bad... though a few did leave?
Zen Arado: I think one person left
Eliza Madrigal: I kept thinking about how differently I had read Artists Way 20 years ago... in terms of things being framed around almost invisible belief in a God
Eliza Madrigal: and how much people change over lifetimes, and the world changes, often imperceptibly
Zen Arado: yes I think she talks about God
Zen Arado: I read the book and started doing the writing in 2007
Eliza Madrigal: she does... a lot, not in a dogmatic way of course, but to tap her vision one sort of has to have faith
Zen Arado: but I only kept it up about four months
Eliza Madrigal: her key points are still great
Zen Arado: I think it is faith in your own subconscious
Zen Arado: and that is rooted in everything I suppose
Zen Arado: it's just seeing ourselves as part of everything, not just this small manifestation
Eliza Madrigal: well said
Zen Arado: that's another thing I noticed doing this course this time
Zen Arado: how I could leave a piece of writing and come back to it and see new things to write
Zen Arado: my subconscious really does work on things
Eliza Madrigal: backburner
Zen Arado: they tell you to leave a piece of writing for a while and then come back to it
Zen Arado: reacquaintance
Eliza Madrigal: :) like that word
Zen Arado: I was just reading this morning that the French have about eight words for return
Zen Arado: :-)
Zen Arado: and we just use one
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: in PaB ten people could use that one word in diff ways though
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Zen Arado: maybe

Words and stories:

Eliza Madrigal: I'd say the first half hour of ever topic is 'what does this word mean?"
Eliza Madrigal: every*
Zen Arado: Jeff Foster says something very interesting about words and stories
Eliza Madrigal: and for each "it means this" there is another hour or so of how that's not necessarily true :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri :)
Zen Arado: they are massively reductionistic

Zen Arado: Hi Xiri ;)
Xirana Oximoxi: 's current display-name is "Xirana".
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Eliza, Zen! :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Foster is eloquent

Zen Arado: 'The story is always a pale imitation of what is actually happening, a “pale imitation of the celebration,” as I call it. Every story is massively reductive; it attempts to reduce the mystery of life to a few words. Foster, Jeff (2012-11-01).

Zen Arado: that really struck a chord with me
Zen Arado: but I remember saying something like that to Alf and he didn't get it
Zen Arado: wonder if he will ever come back?
Eliza Madrigal: maybe true... but I long for some sense of celebration of the story as well
Zen Arado: Yes where we can use the stories that we have to realise they are only an appearance, a map, a useful shorthand
Zen Arado: it's a fact that we solidify them and believe them too much
Eliza Madrigal: if someone pours their heart out.. shares details about the day that are quite useless in practical terms yet... matter... it feels overly dismissive to say "well that's just a story"
Zen Arado: unfortunately though it usually is?
Xirana Oximoxi: nice comment, Zen...
Zen Arado: Something happens and we dramatise it
Xirana Oximoxi: maybe it can be also related to painting
Zen Arado: we are storytelling creatures which is okay except when it makes us suffer more
Eliza Madrigal: it helps to see the storyness of things I guess, when one is suffering yes... can see that
Zen Arado: we prolong the agony
Eliza Madrigal: but there is also joy in forgetting the story
Zen Arado: so many of the stories aren't even true
Zen Arado: or they are just a way of seeing something that isn't the bare facts – it is embroidering them
Zen Arado: I always remember Eckharrt Tolle giving instances
Eliza Madrigal: I think I am sensitive to something in this that reminds me of my step-father, who when I would be hurt by something would hold his hands like a cup and say "cry me a handfull"
Eliza Madrigal: as though it didn't matter
Zen Arado: 'she let me down !'.. No she just didn't turn up
Eliza Madrigal nods....
Zen Arado: children are like that
Zen Arado: but we don't even grow out of it
Eliza Madrigal: you think he was appropriate?
Zen Arado: I was sitting beside a woman one day when her little child ran up and said 'you know I fell over there!'
Eliza Madrigal: am not being combative :) am genuinely looking ^^
Zen Arado: he had got over the pain but he still wanted his mother to know about it :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :) sure
Zen Arado: I thought it was so funny at the time because that's the way we behave as adults as well
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: sweet
Zen Arado: a women came to our music thing last Friday and some guy had been running around exposing himself
Zen Arado: she was really upset and kept going over and over the incident for about half an hour
Zen Arado: but I thought she should have moved on
Zen Arado: not to say it wasn't a bad experience
Eliza Madrigal: new to SL?
Zen Arado: but why keep churning it over and over? G
Zen Arado: I don't know
Zen Arado: but it's an example of what we all do isn't it?
Eliza Madrigal: not sure
Zen Arado: I noticed myself telling people terrible things that happened to me because of my disability
Zen Arado: although I have become better at just doing what needs to be done and moving on and accepting it
Xirana Oximoxi: I am very reserved... in a lot of senses
Eliza Madrigal: should you not talk about it?
Zen Arado: yes but why keep on going on and on and over and over the same thing?
Zen Arado: That's what leads to depression that kind of rumination
Xirana Oximoxi: I suppose it's a need
Eliza Madrigal: or hiding, can
Zen Arado: not repressing but also not ruminating
Eliza Madrigal: mhm, that's it
Zen Arado: there are some happy balance there
Xirana Oximoxi: yes
Zen Arado: there is I mean
Zen Arado: if you noticed yourself telling people about some unfortunate event
Eliza Madrigal: I do like Byron Katie's approach in that sense, of askign "who would I be without the idea ____?"
Zen Arado: is it actually making you happier?
Zen Arado: Yes it's the same thing
Zen Arado: questioning those kind of thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: examined life, and all that :)
Zen Arado: is it true? Is it really true?
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Zen Arado: But that's what meditation is about as well
Zen Arado: seeing the thoughts for what they are and not believing them
Zen Arado: or being carried away by them
Zen Arado: it's all the same thing being expressed in different ways

Questioning stories:

Zen Arado: I wondered if I was doing right expressing my disability problems at Zen retreats in my story
Zen Arado: she said that people are interested in other people's struggles
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: also interested in seeing that people are so many different things, not just one thing, whatever it is
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: we don't know what we are
Eliza Madrigal: but not leaving out major aspects
Zen Arado: I think people limit themselves so much by saying 'I am no good at such and such
Zen Arado: because they perhaps had one bad experience in school or something 30 years ago
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: but some things run very deep... things people may have said, etc
Zen Arado: it's like they define themselves into a narrow category that they can't move out off
Eliza Madrigal: you have to get to it before you are able to question it?
Zen Arado: yes if it was in the past
Zen Arado: but if you notice it coming up now you can now question that
Zen Arado: isn't that what psychoanalysts do?
Eliza Madrigal: and what if you question something that has been a driving force for you? and it erases part of what you thought you wanted for the future? :) potential minefield
Zen Arado: Allow things from the past to come up and look at them and ask if they are really true?
Zen Arado: But you will find other driving forces? I don't think you can't control any of that anyway
Zen Arado: we are driven by so many things
Zen Arado: I don't think we have much control
Eliza Madrigal: psychoanalyst is there to be supportive in that process maybe
Zen Arado: what we do each day is because of the way we are, our talents and abilities and disabilities and interests and desires and urges and the people around us etc
Eliza Madrigal: I am in a panera and they shut off internet for the next 90 minutes, but....
Eliza Madrigal: I enjoyed a nonduality panel recently... felt the speakers balanced one another pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=34KRWEsp0Go
Eliza Madrigal: and wanted to share before I have to sit in time out
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: ty Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for so many interesting questions
Xirana Oximoxi: Thank you Eliza :)
Zen Arado: wonders what a Panera is
Xirana Oximoxi: me too:)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: a kind of cafe that has lots of goodies
Zen Arado: ah ok
Eliza Madrigal: and a really good blackbean soup
Xirana Oximoxi: ahh :)
Eliza Madrigal: if you add a little yogurt :)
Zen Arado: feel hungry now
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: nice to see you both, hugs
Xirana Oximoxi: hugs WEliza! nice to see you too!
Zen Arado: thanks for coming Eliza
Xirana Oximoxi: Eliza
Zen Arado: byee hugs
Zen Arado: I finished my writing course today Xiri so hopefully I can get back to doing some painting
Zen Arado: or a bit more anyway
Xirana Oximoxi: wonderful! :-)...but anyway the course if the course is finish you can continue writitng:)
Zen Arado: yes that gives me a problem now :-)
Xirana Oximoxi: :-)
Zen Arado: if you do a course it structures things for you
Xirana Oximoxi: so..is it good or bad?
Zen Arado: we learned a lot about writing
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...sure it is also useful to appreciate more when reading now
Zen Arado: the tutor was very good
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: she gave us lots of feedback
Zen Arado: more than she needed to
Xirana Oximoxi: you can make a kind of structured plan to write ...maybe:)
Zen Arado: I am going to continue to write for half an hour every morning
Xirana Oximoxi: that's a good teacher...vocational
Zen Arado: and I will write memoirs
Zen Arado: I might try to get something published
Zen Arado: it would be nice if that happened but it's like painting
Zen Arado: too many artists and too many writers
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...but on internet yo can aslo find places to share...I am sure
Zen Arado: oh yes there are plenty of Internet places or I could put things on a blog
Xirana Oximoxi: yes....a lot of creativity around the world...:)
Zen Arado: but I would like to get into a good magazine or something after putting so much work into stories
Zen Arado: a blog is okay for just writing things that happen to you daily
Xirana Oximoxi: then it's more difficult...but if you don't try you don't know what would happen :)
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: nothing ventured nothing gained

Zen Arado: an old English saying
Xirana Oximoxi: exactly:)
Xirana Oximoxi: to have your own blog is also good to share stories
Xirana Oximoxi: there's a Catalan writer that has done it for a long time...until some editorials have begun to be interested in her works and have published a book... so, who knows:)
Zen Arado: that's interesting :-)
Zen Arado: I better go and make my dinner I am hungry :-)
Zen Arado: thanks for coming Xiri;)
Zen Arado: byee