2009.03.30 07:00 - Pema's "Weave of the Tapestry of Light"

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Pema Pera: hi Storm and Eliza! Fancy to meet you here at this early hour

Storm, Maxine, Adams, SohiaSharon Larnia, Pema, and I happily met a half an hour early today, due to Pema's RL meeting at 7AMSLT.

Pema had offered to address a specific question (about arising and appearances) that I'd thrown into a rather weighty discussion the night before. :)

Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Pema
Storm Nordwind smiles
Storm Nordwind: The pleasure is ours Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Adams
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: Hi Maxine!
Eliza Madrigal: Maxine, hi!
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Storm, Pema, Eliza and Maxine :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Maxine
Storm Nordwind: and all
Maxine Walden: hi, Pema, Eliza, Storm, Adams
Pema Pera: How nice, such a crowd for my 18th session :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Pema, have you slept?
Pema Pera: a bit, sure
Pema Pera: three hours first, then two more hours
Storm Nordwind has hit the manual override to switch on the ON AIR signs
Pema Pera: ah, I wondered about that!
Eliza Madrigal: Is that something that needs to be done usually...?
Storm Nordwind: No. It switches on automatically within 10 minutes of a session
Storm Nordwind: and it stays on for at least 30 minutes
Storm Nordwind: or until the last person leaves
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, okay. Thanks.
Storm Nordwind: But at odd times like this I use an override
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: Yesterday evening Threedee and I had another animated discussion, with PIla and Eliza and others as well
Storm Nordwind: Another one?! :)
Pema Pera: Eliza tried to interject an interesting question that got lost a bit in the fray - yes, another one :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Great fun :)
Pema Pera: so I'd like to take up her question here again:

Pema Pera: [2009/03/29 19:48] Eliza Madrigal: So Pema, what we call water, you see as an aspect of being that has appeared as "water"...metaphor....though it seems/is tangible (enough to swim in and have our eyes sting from) from this (in-world) view...?

Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :)
Pema Pera: To respond, after half a day:
Pema Pera: that is a great question, and a very natural one
Pema Pera: in fact the only question we can ask from within our logic, our world view
Pema Pera: but by the very act of phrasing it that way, we run the risk of pulling down Being into our realm of shadows, so to speak, making it part of the fictional world that we think really exists in space and time
Storm Nordwind nods

Pema Pera: it would be more accurate to say that Being allows the appearing of what we then interpret as a world

Pema Pera: with lots of content, including water and people enjoying the water
Pema Pera: but it is all given together, each moment is a complete whole
Pema Pera: and it is us trying to carve it up as water and subjects and objects etc
Pema Pera: does that make sense, that difference in emphasis?

Eliza Madrigal: Allows. Yes, I like that. And I do come from a place of "knowing" that now is all there is...yes. It makes sense.

I could accept the picture Pema painted here, and yet felt that the "experiential" aspect that Pema often speaks of, was still illusive. Once you see something just IS, Nothing, Empty...well, what is there to talk about? 

So a not so elegant effort to ask something to that effect: 

Eliza Madrigal: Coming from that place though....
Eliza Madrigal: forms are dissolved... and articulating experience is hmm...well, odd is a good word
Pema Pera: it is very odd, at first at least, totally different -- I like the Latin that medieval monks sometimes used: totaliter aliter
Pema Pera: but everything stays very precise, though.
Pema Pera: the problem is that a "creator God" is very misleading
Pema Pera: and wrong, really
Pema Pera: a movie projector in some sense creates the whole movie, yes
Pema Pera: but not the buildings in the movie or the people
Pema Pera: those buildings and people never exist, never are created, are part of the weave of the tapestry of light

Eliza Madrigal: Well yes, creator is created, and I can see there is no separation...at essence all the same. Along the lines of what you and Three were talking about tho...light is in realm of materialism?
Pema Pera: so the projector allows the illusion of things being created

Storm Nordwind: "the weave of the tapestry of light" - that is a great metaphor... and not even a metaphor!
Pema Pera: it's only a metaphor of course, but matter and space and time are all words that attempt to reify the world we think we live in (reify = making a thing out of it)
Pema Pera: thanks, Storm :)
Pema Pera: appreciating the presence of appearance is a move away from reification
Pema Pera: so materialism and material are moves away from seeing what is real
Pema Pera: ways of hiding under the turtle's shield

Storm Nordwind: I sometimes wonder why we impute reality onto such illusory things, but i think that is a second order problem. First importance is to see what is really real, I think!

Eliza Madrigal: yes....I can imagine (though admittedly my understanding is poetical) that the water is not the substance it feels like here...is being. And I do appreciate that you clarified that when I said "aspects" of being, I was creating dualities. That helped me make a little jump I think.
Pema Pera: it is a great question, Storm, and can help us, for sure, with the bigger problem too!

And here's the line which, when reading over as I sat there, I could hear "click click click"...seatbelts strapping in....  

Pema Pera: but the felt wetness of water can be fully and totally experienced by us, once we see it as appearance -- in fact, more so than when we see it as material substance -- which pushes it outside, away from us.

Storms "seeing what is really real." 

Pema Pera: it's like a movie
Pema Pera: if you really would believe that people are being killed in front of you, you couldn't appreciate all the details
Adams Dubrovna: Hello SophiaLauren
Eliza Madrigal: SophiaLauren, Hello :)
Pema Pera: but since you know it is a movie, you can actually fully go into all the human emotions entering in it
Pema Pera: hi Sophia!
Eliza Madrigal: The detachment of knowing it will pass...come and go arise and dissolve
Pema Pera: so inherent emptiness enhances appreciation
Pema Pera: yes
Eliza Madrigal: I would agree with that, yes. :)

Eliza Madrigal: Your way of viewing this seems very specific to me, Pema...
SophiaSharon Larnia: Good morning all
Eliza Madrigal: in that you seem to work with it ... Hm...
Pema Pera: it was only after learning to see it in this radical way that I finally began to understand what the heart sutra was saying
Pema Pera: before that it was mostly inspiring poetry
Pema Pera: after that it read like a physics text book
Storm Nordwind laughs "Yes!"
Pema Pera: very very different -- the seemingly abstract suddenly was seen to be the most direct and concrete
Storm Nordwind: The person who wrote that certainly had the direct experience! :)
Pema Pera: so that gave me the confidence that it was not something I just imagined, or a trap I fell into, but rather what a hundred generations before me had found and had distilled for posterity
Maxine Walden: don't know the heart sutra
Pema Pera: http://heartofus.wordpress.com/chants/hannya-shingyo/
Maxine Walden: but would like to...thanks
Pema Pera: is one translation, my favorite one
Maxine Walden: thanks, Pema
Pema Pera: No path, no wisdom and no gain. No gain – thus Bodhisattvas live this Prajna Paramita With no hindrance of mind – No hindrance therefore no fear.

When Pema used the word physics, my mind went back to all the ideas which have become rather mainstream conversation in recent years: dark matter, emergent properties, entanglement, etc. I had been looking at these things as confirmation of what we feel intrinsically about interconnection and many lives/multiverses...as a connection point between contemplation and science...*the* bridge. I begin to see however, that Pema's thinking is, as he is saying, more....Radical.

Eliza Madrigal: And yet not materialism..or elegant materialism... I guess what I'm feeling is that "where is the link?" I can live with a place of not knowing...but when I try to know (ie-communicate it) there seems to be a gap
Pema Pera: it seems to deny everything in Buddhism, yet is its culmination . . .
Pema Pera: ah, when refering to my paper, this is the 1/3 that is left out there :-)
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Particularly there being no realm of consciousness is funny in there....have to think about that a *lot*
Eliza Madrigal: Consciousness is the "be all end all" for many

(I meant me -hah)

Pema Pera: Eliza refered to http://www.ids.ias.edu/~piet/publ/ot...erlcircle.html
Pema Pera: YES
Pema Pera: ?
Eliza Madrigal: No clue :)
Pema Pera: where do the green lines come from?
Pema Pera: :-)
Adams Dubrovna notices book next to Maxine
Pema Pera: Adamsic magic?
Storm Nordwind: I rezzed a copy of the Heart Sutra for Maxine
Adams Dubrovna: not mine :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh nice
Maxine Walden: ah, Storm, thank you so much!!
Storm Nordwind: Click on the right page to turn it
Pema Pera: yes, Eliza, consciousness seems to be the base, and even that has to be seen as only the presence of appearance . . . . not so easy at first
Pema Pera: Stormian magic!
Maxine Walden: Storm's magic
Pema Pera: I have to run off to my work meeting . . .
Adams Dubrovna: bye Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema, thanks for this time :)
Pema Pera: ELiza, shall we continue this conversation on Friday, say?
Eliza Madrigal: Sure...morning?
Pema Pera: fine!
Eliza Madrigal: :) K
Storm Nordwind: Same time or normal?
Pema Pera: I'll ask Quen, who is guardian then
Pema Pera: normal time, 7 am
Pema Pera: today's the one exception
Pema Pera: those were really great questions, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you... great material to work with :)

(okay, not funny-get it, material? sigh)

Pema Pera: very helpful in getting into the heart of it all!
Pema Pera: see you all soon again
Eliza Madrigal: I hope so...certainly is enjoyable, Bye
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Pema!
Maxine Walden: yes, thanks Pema
Pema Pera: and thank you for coming out so early to keep me company!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Sorry I came early I liked these groups so
Eliza Madrigal: On a personal note, this idea of consciousness not being the be-all-end-all has become much of the focus of my meditative practice. It came as somewhat of a surprise to me to realize that the "glow" wasn't the point > :)
Eliza Madrigal: Sophia, I'm glad you are here
Adams Dubrovna: yes, of course :)
Adams Dubrovna: wb Maxine :)
Eliza Madrigal: The idea that you can become attached to what before seemed to be the pinnacle...and allow them to drop... Not easy for the western brain.
Maxine Walden: Thanks, I was trying to look at the Heart Sutra Storm rezzed and I crashed...maybe I did something wrong...
Storm Nordwind: I'm sure you were doing OK Maxine. Would you like me to re-rez it?
Maxine Walden: I would Storm if it is not distracting to the group
Eliza Madrigal: Not at all :)
Adams Dubrovna: Nope, not distracting :)
Maxine Walden: would others like to see it as well?...actually it may interfere with the discussion we are having here. I will look at it later ...
Eliza Madrigal: No interference I think...but that's up to you.

When Pema left, I had the impression that we had blocks to rearrange..or that the blocks we'd had before had been knocked a bit out of place...

Maxine Walden: I am trying to also think about the discussion just now...in terms of how I have tended to view the mind/psyche as so shaped by evolution...and that from this discussion is an appearance just as everything else
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm..You mean that conditioning and past/future are illusory too...
Maxine Walden: well, wondering about that...if these aspects are all part of the movie, to use Pema's metaphor
Maxine Walden: and to focus on any one element, such as the shaping of evolution is to lose the overall sense of the movie
Maxine Walden: Storm, does the heart sutra address these issues?
Storm Nordwind smiles
Eliza Madrigal: Illusory doesn't mean irrelevant... And any aspect illuminates the whole if approached from Being?
Storm Nordwind: Well...
Eliza Madrigal: listening :)
Storm Nordwind does not claim to be an expert...
Storm Nordwind: The heart sutra, or Essence of Wisdom Sutra, addresses the reality of everything
Storm Nordwind: And illusion exists for a while
Storm Nordwind: But it passes
Storm Nordwind: Our minds do try to hang on though
Adams Dubrovna accepts Storm as an expert :)
Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure whether evolution is addressed specifically, but change and impermanence and what is really real is.
Storm Nordwind: But ask me in 6 months when I have done my latest round of studies on the heart Sutra
Maxine Walden: Thanks, this is a first round for me.
Storm Nordwind: I am currently attending a Buddhist class doing in depth study of my guru's commentary on the heart Sutra
Maxine Walden: ah...
Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful. May we ask you all the way through? hehe
Storm Nordwind: haha!
Storm Nordwind: Of course!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Storm Nordwind: My Guru's book is called Heart of Wisdom - in case you wanted to read for yourselves
Maxine Walden: that would be interesting, Storm. How would we access it, via the author?
Storm Nordwind: One moment...
Storm Nordwind: http://www.tharpa.com/us/book-Heart....isdom-585.html
Storm Nordwind: That is for US students
Maxine Walden: Storm has a library right at hand!! Thanks
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks!
Eliza Madrigal: First snippet my eyes fell to on description is parallels to dreaming :)
Storm Nordwind: Yes that might appeal to Maxine! :)

Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: At first I was a bit overwhelmed by the overlaps in all the discussions and workshops...felt I wasn't giving my attention fully...and then I backed up to take out the element of "catching up"....a fiction :)
Storm Nordwind: A delightful insight Eliza!
Maxine Walden: Yes, very interesting, Storm, and lovely insight, Eliza
Maxine Walden: perhaps there are several, maybe infinite, lenses available re 'reality', ie the aspect of the dreaming self, the 'thinking' self, and other 'perceptions' none of which is the truth but all of which are aspects, such as the kaleidoscope...

A lovely idea...reality lenses!

SophiaSharon Larnia: yes maxine this I have been thinking of also
Maxine Walden: ways to glimpse only
SophiaSharon Larnia: i feel this living in my day to day life, going to work and seperating myself from the activities of the day, if this makes sense
Eliza Madrigal: Do you mean you are practicing detachment from the wheel...the busyness, Sophia?
SophiaSharon Larnia: perhaps
SophiaSharon Larnia: not practricing
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Nice. Like that.
SophiaSharon Larnia: observing
Maxine Walden: (aware of the time, and not wishing to expose my ignorance, but wanting to ask Storm if I may keep a copy of the Sutra or if this is for 'reference only'. And if I may keep a copy how do I do so?)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I think you are right Maxine....many 'eyes' that see
Maxine Walden: right, Sophia
Adams Dubrovna hopes Maxine and SophiaLauren are right :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: so do I
Maxine Walden: hopes, Adams?
Storm Nordwind: Ah... this is a no transfer version. If you like I will rez one on Cove Island for you, perhaps on the veranda
Adams Dubrovna: Well, I am not seeing the other way Maxine :)
Maxine Walden: wonderful, Storm. thanks very much!!
Storm Nordwind smiles
Maxine Walden: I need to go, dear friends, the beginning of the day here...I've enjoyed this conversation very much...look forward to many more...
Adams Dubrovna: bye Maxine :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Maxine. Thanks for coming :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye Maxine
Eliza Madrigal: The many eyes idea brings up Indra's net... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra's_net

Last week I brought this up too, but in the log. I'll leave it alone now. :)

SophiaSharon Larnia: so much to read, every day i come here :))
Eliza Madrigal: I love this idea...of each "eye" reflecting all the others...encompassing all the others.
Eliza Madrigal: hahha..sorry Sophia. hah
SophiaSharon Larnia: i think of it as the one
SophiaSharon Larnia: hahah Eliza: ))
Eliza Madrigal: I have "so much to read" also, but one cannot catch up, nor miss anything really.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Adams Dubrovna: Don't worry too much SophiaLauren, they come up again later :)
Storm Nordwind: It is all part of a continuum. It all contributes to your learning.
Adams Dubrovna: Each timre around we get a chance to grab somethi ng else
Storm Nordwind: Now please excuse me. I have some errands to run in SL before continuing much overdue RL work!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Storm, Thanks!
Adams Dubrovna: bye Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Eliza Madrigal: Namaste.
Adams Dubrovna: But Eliza you seem to have gotten off the Merry-go-Round and gone right for it all :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahah.....
SophiaSharon Larnia: so if I may ask....
SophiaSharon Larnia: the difference between what you are and what you have
SophiaSharon Larnia: this is sort of similiar to what Maxine just said, in a way
SophiaSharon Larnia: internal and external
Adams Dubrovna: In some ways from the way I view it but...
Adams Dubrovna: emotions are something we have; they are not us
Adams Dubrovna: fears are something we have; they are not us
Adams Dubrovna: but they are internal
SophiaSharon Larnia: ok
Eliza Madrigal: Adams, I've dropped a bit of my aprehension to Be "with" here perhaps...not holding myself apart in self-protection. Nothing to gain/nothing to lose. :) This ties into what you are saying a bit too, Sophia.

Be with wasn't as close as I wanted to get there. Closer, is the idea of playing with. If "I am he is you are we and we are all together" then it is silly to be fearful. :)  

Eliza Madrigal: And yes...fears are something added on to essence...something we carry around which gets in the way.
Eliza Madrigal: It can be tough not to think we *are* whatever profession we practice, or service we provide...
Eliza Madrigal: We are not the label above our heads :)
Adams Dubrovna: yes, exactly
Adams Dubrovna: It is sometimes a hard lesson to learn
Adams Dubrovna: We get so caught up in our roles and they are what we have
Adams Dubrovna: even parent, child, husband, wife etc are roles
SophiaSharon Larnia: but what I am in this sense seems to be something that disappears the minute I stop thinking about it, and I'm trying to figure out what that means
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Adams Dubrovna: Yes, it seems to change the more we think about it
Adams Dubrovna: But the more we think about it, the more we learn what it is not
SophiaSharon Larnia: true
Eliza Madrigal: Yes! My children call me "Mom (or Mama-chan in the case of my daughters) and it isn't so easy to remember, to use Pema's term, "wear the roles lightly"
Adams Dubrovna: yes, Eliza..I am struggling with that a bit right now
Eliza Madrigal: I am sure. Is it because you are working so much?
Adams Dubrovna: at the same time, we need to play those roles well :)
Adams Dubrovna: accept them and do our best with them
Adams Dubrovna: No Eliza, it is a bit deeper than than that. I have been exploring the roles themselves
Eliza Madrigal: Ah...okay. I see that. The roles can take over...become the master rather than something one hangs in the closet.
Adams Dubrovna: The roles change on us as we move through life and create confusion
Adams Dubrovna: yes Eliza
Adams Dubrovna: Playing the roles too seriously affects others
Adams Dubrovna: We need to step back and look at what we are beyond the role
Adams Dubrovna: then we can begin to see what others are beyond their role
Eliza Madrigal: :) one-ness ... the essence
Adams Dubrovna: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: this weekend I had something just in my reach, and went to write it down, and got distracted by getting to work etc..and it was mostly gone when I had time to write it, so it begged the question
Adams Dubrovna: Hopefully it will come back to you soon :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: it seems there is some purpose to distractions
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you all , I hope to see you soon :))
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes it is a matter of practically making sure to carry notebooks and things...or blogging, etc. You see your rhythms and processes. :)
Adams Dubrovna: It was good to see you too. Take care :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sophia. See you soon I'm sure :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes I'm trying....have to develop the habit
Adams Dubrovna: It was quite a morning here :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: have a great day!
Adams Dubrovna: are you the GOC Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes! and now I'm thinking about the topic of the affects on others...of awakening...
Eliza Madrigal: And yes :)
Adams Dubrovna: Yes, that is a bit of what I am struggling with as I have seen the roles closest to me a bit in a new light
Adams Dubrovna: Our roles intertwine
Adams Dubrovna: How does one go about untangling them?
Eliza Madrigal: !
Adams Dubrovna: Can we just drop them...that seems to not work if others are in their same roles
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I certainly see what you're grappling with.
Eliza Madrigal: I am too, to an extent..perhaps not in the same way. But it is so relevant when your intention is "do no harm"
Adams Dubrovna: Of course this whole struggle is on the level of what we have
Adams Dubrovna: yes
Eliza Madrigal: : ) Let clarity emerge from the silence :)
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Adams Dubrovna: This has been a big help to me discussing this abtractly this morning
Adams Dubrovna: wb Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi again Pema :)
Pema Pera: hello again!
Pema Pera: meeting finished :)
Adams Dubrovna: I hope it was productive :)
Pema Pera: and this meeting not yet, I'm happy to see!
Pema Pera: oh, well, more a formality
Pema Pera: but had to be there
Adams Dubrovna: This one was productive :)
Pema Pera: ah, tell me!
Adams Dubrovna: It took a number of terms but has stayed fairly much on course
Adams Dubrovna: Trying to remember where you left
Pema Pera: terms?
Eliza Madrigal: In a sense....attachment to roles, detachment not being distance...
Pema Pera: yes, very important that
Adams Dubrovna: turns not terms haha
Eliza Madrigal: one moment...
Adams Dubrovna: We each tried to fit it to what we are thinking about right now I think
Eliza Madrigal: I'd like to stay, but I need to get my son to school now. He had a bit of a rough night sleeping so he is arriving late :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'll get the log posted very quickly though :)
Adams Dubrovna: Thank you for the discussion Eliza. Take care :)
Pema Pera: thanks a lot, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Adams, and Pema. I've enjoyed this so much!
Pema Pera: me too, what part I could attend!
Pema Pera: And Adams, I'll see you Friday, right?
Pema Pera: for lunch?
Adams Dubrovna: Yes, I was just making you a notecard it you want one
Adams Dubrovna: or wait for Eliza to post?
Pema Pera: oh, we can wait for Eliza to post it
Pema Pera: given that it's finished already
Pema Pera: but thanks for the offer!
Adams Dubrovna: I have been struggling with roles a bot in the past few days and it helped me to express summarize it a bit today
Pema Pera: okay, I'll have a look at your blog
Pema Pera: for today, right?
Pema Pera: quite short!
Adams Dubrovna: Not much today
Pema Pera: ah, you meant in the session?
Adams Dubrovna: I read a passage yesterday in one of the logs about the benefits of not writing
Adams Dubrovna: Yes, the summary (of sorts) was here
Pema Pera: ah, okay, I will read it in the log then
Adams Dubrovna: thanks. there were some more dialogues in my blog in the past few days
Pema Pera: yeah, just looking at them
Adams Dubrovna: We can wait until Friday. If I haven;t resolved it by then I will want to talk about it
Pema Pera: sure, we will talk anyway :)
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Pema Pera: And I like the "not fretting" part of your blog
Pema Pera: part of appreciation :-)
Pema Pera: well, I'll go have a look at the chronicles project -- thank you again for taking that on!
Pema Pera: see you soon again!
Adams Dubrovna: It was good for me :)
Adams Dubrovna: take care and thanks :)
Pema Pera: and for all of us!
Pema Pera: And yes, next project is Art History workshop for Kira and Sacred Art consolidation in PaB as a more permanent exhibition, are those the ones?
Adams Dubrovna: yes, those are the ones in SL :)
Pema Pera: hehe, yeah, our typists sometimes are distracted by RL
Adams Dubrovna: hehe
Pema Pera: continues to be a major problem for us
Adams Dubrovna: yes :)
Pema Pera: one day there may be a revolt
Adams Dubrovna giggles
Pema Pera: but we should go into IM to discuss the details
Pema Pera: remember typists all over are reading these logs . . . .
Adams Dubrovna: hehe
Adams Dubrovna: we can learn sign language
Pema Pera: or exchange note cards :-)
Pema Pera: well, bfn !
Adams Dubrovna: bye :)