2009.03.27 07:00 - Three Kinds of Divine Love

Pema took the chat log for this session, standing in for Quen.

Pema Pera: Hi Storm!
Pema Pera: Good afternoon!
Storm Nordwind: Hi Pema!
Storm Nordwind: Good afternoon
Storm Nordwind smiles
Pema Pera: Morning here still :)
Pema Pera: I'm sorry I gave you the wrong information about Pila's plot -- it was not square but rectangular, it turned out
Storm Nordwind: Yes. Even though your update said it was not rectangular, I guess what you meant!
Storm Nordwind: I've just been measuring things here in Bieup
Pema Pera: hahaha, yes
Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
Pema Pera: Come join us!
Storm Nordwind: There are several ways to align a 112x184 plot
sophia Placebo: hi storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi sophia!
Storm Nordwind notices the "Shabby Chic" tag sophia is wearing and thinks her outfit is far from Shabby :)
Pema Pera: :)
sophia Placebo: thank you
Pema Pera: Good to see you here again, Sophia -- you were here a week ago, do I remember that correctly?
sophia Placebo: true i visit this place at the time of a meeting , luckey me :)
sophia Placebo: i visted this place last night too
Pema Pera: the one where I talked with Geo about karma and sin?
Pema Pera: Hi Korii!
sophia Placebo: yes
sophia Placebo: hi korii
Pema Pera: Storm and I were just talking about making a kind of mock-up nearby in this sim
Pema Pera: of a place in Hawaii
Storm Nordwind: We need quite a large plot: 112x184m
Storm Nordwind rounds to multiples of 4
Pema Pera: Pila has bought some land there, and has built his own house on part of it, has sold part of it, and still has a plot that he is willing to sell, in principle.
sophia Placebo: i see
Pema Pera: So we have done some brainstorming to see how we, perhaps some day, might possibly want to use that as a PaB retreat center in RL
Pema Pera: and a good way to make the plans more concrete is to build it here on 1;1 scale in SL
Pema Pera: we could even start with a SL retreat here, before starting to bulid anything in RL
Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hello everyone :)
Storm Nordwind waves
sophia Placebo: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema, Korii, Storm, Sophia (Nice to meet you) :)
Korii Tiger: hi eliza
sophia Placebo: nice to meet you too eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Korii, your tag...hahh :) Don't let me interrupt though
Korii Tiger: >.<
Korii Tiger: its a land group >.<
Storm Nordwind: So I have been measuring out what it looks like, and it seems we can fit it in this sim
Pema Pera: great, and we can walk over to it from our pavilion
Storm Nordwind: Even without disturbing anything we have, except for the temporary science exhibits
Storm Nordwind: The walkway to the Library can remain intact too
Pema Pera: even better!
Pema Pera: glad to hear that
Storm Nordwind: Basically, it can run east west (112x184) from just behind the info point to the north of here right he way to he east edge of the sim
Storm Nordwind: And it can run to the south end of the stagrgate that we don't own
Storm Nordwind: The laser ball and the runway can disappear
Storm Nordwind: There will be some "spare" land north and south of this strip.
Pema Pera: glad to hear all that, Storm!
Storm Nordwind: Piet, we will need to play with land ownership because it's a mix in this sim
Pema Pera: yes
Storm Nordwind: Anyway, I've just marked the corner points with 10m white poles for now
Pema Pera: it's the border between Kira and PaB
Storm Nordwind: That all seems appropriate
Pema Pera: I see, the first white pole is quite close
Pema Pera: but not crowdingly close to us, perfect!
Pema Pera: just to the North of us
Storm Nordwind: I think so too. That will be the SW corner of the plot
Pema Pera: I suggest we create a new group for the land ownership
Storm Nordwind: Very good yess
Pema Pera: so that any experimentation will not disturb the rest
Storm Nordwind: Yes good
Pema Pera: how about "pabrl" for PaB RL ?
Pema Pera: or pab-rl
Pema Pera: slightly easier to understand
Storm Nordwind: How about something more memorable!?
Pema Pera: even more?
Storm Nordwind grins
Pema Pera: pab-rl-as-opposed-to-sl ?
Storm Nordwind: hehe
Pema Pera: pab-not-sl ?
Pema Pera: playasbeingthere !
Storm Nordwind: haha!
Pema Pera: (the current place is playasbeinghere)
Pema Pera: or for now at least: "neither-here-nor-there"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: or actually "both-here-and-there"
Pema Pera trying to remember his tetralemmas
Storm Nordwind: "A Place of Being"
Pema Pera: ah, nice!
Storm Nordwind: PoB
Pema Pera: playing-as-a-place-of-being
Pema Pera: for now at least
Storm Nordwind pieces together his exploding head
Storm Nordwind thinks you can get therapy nowadays for tetralemmas
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Pema Pera: hehehe, Storm
Pema Pera: especially in the area where you're going to live soon!
Storm Nordwind: Nine seconds of PaB - always good
Pema Pera: indeed!
Pema Pera: I had my sound off :(
Pema Pera: sometimes I see a "ding" appearing here, that is not associated with the bell here?
Pema Pera: I didn't see it right now
Storm Nordwind: NO - this one is textually silent
Pema Pera: ah, it may be good to have one here permanently which is more talkative
Storm Nordwind: I believe Adelene has one that talks
Pema Pera: I can ask her
Storm Nordwind: I can easily add a 15 minute ding if you wish
Pema Pera: oh, that would be nice
Pema Pera: you know what?
Pema Pera: here is an idea
Storm Nordwind listens
Pema Pera: would it be too talkative to add the following message, every fifteen minutes, something like:
Pema Pera: Ding . . . .
Storm Nordwind: 4 extra dots? :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: this is the PaB clock that rings every fifteen minutes
Pema Pera: for 9 sec
Pema Pera: according to the Play as Being exploration guidelines on http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Pema Pera: (and it could even have one extra line mentioning that conversations are recorded)
Pema Pera: that would effectively free guardians from introducing PaB
Pema Pera: one more thing automatized
Storm Nordwind: Hmmm... what do the rest of you think?
Storm Nordwind watches the tumbleweed drift across the pavilion...
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure... maybe somehow shorter...
Eliza Madrigal: Might read a little chunky on the logs, but I do like the idea
Storm Nordwind: If I make it a separate object, it could have "PaB 15 minute clock" in its name, and that would be visible in the message
Storm Nordwind: But the autorecording will not capture the text. Only your own chatlog will save it
Pema Pera: that seems fine
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that would be great.
Pema Pera: less distracting
Storm Nordwind: The autologger only knows about avatars
sophia Placebo: as long as it satays short
Storm Nordwind thinks... mmmmmm... satay :)
Eliza Madrigal: For the sake of the TOS, does it have to show in the logs, that you did notify about the recording?
sophia Placebo: lol hmm , forget the correct spelling
Pema Pera: I don't think so, as long as we have personal records
Eliza Madrigal: satay sounds like a dance move :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay. Then great. :))
Pema Pera: if anyone ever gets angry about that (hasn't happened yet in our first year!) we can show them a copy of our IMs
Pema Pera: but it's a good question, Eliza
Pema Pera things satay sounds like Indonesian food . . . .
Pema Pera: *thinks
Eliza Madrigal: dinner and a show
sophia Placebo: :)
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: Sophia, do you have any comment, suggestion, or question about my conversation with Geo last week, by any chance?
sophia Placebo: i did had
sophia Placebo: but im not sure exactly what now
sophia Placebo: i do remmber the love point , that what i capture and keep
sophia Placebo: captured
Pema Pera: yes, me too, that was moving -- and unusual
sophia Placebo: cuz i made a notcard about it , i think i should make a notcards in every discussion i be in in the future
Eliza Madrigal: Does anyone remember, off hand, the log title?
Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...-Sin_and_Karma
Pema Pera: "Sin and Karma"
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you
Storm Nordwind: Before I forget, would the following bell message be OK? ...
Storm Nordwind: Play as Being 15 minute bell: Conversations here are recorded when ON AIR. Please see http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Pema Pera: wonderful, succinct and clear, and also correct for non-pab times, very nice!
Storm Nordwind smiles
Eliza Madrigal: Quite
Pema Pera: thank you, Storm!
sophia Placebo: short and nice
Storm Nordwind: Expect to see it at the next session :)
Pema Pera: That's why I need so many friends, to shorten my talkativeness . . . .
Storm Nordwind laughs
Eliza Madrigal: No, do not want to do that to you Pema ! :)
Pema Pera: Cal does the best job
Pema Pera: I can write one page, and she responds with one appropriate one-liner . . . .
Storm Nordwind: Yes, even shorter than my replies
Eliza Madrigal: a talent
Pema Pera: *much* shorter
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: coming back to the Geo conversation, here is how it kicked of, and what Sophia refered to:
Pema Pera: Geo Netizen: My discussion will flow from the Franciscan school. Geo Netizen: Fundamental to all Franciscan theology is the idea that the core nature of the divine is love and perfection; God is perfect love. Geo Netizen: All other attributes of the divine are root in, colored by and flow from this core nature. Geo Netizen: And all love which we experience, including eros, philia and agape, has its origin and source in the divine. Geo Netizen: With that background: Geo Netizen: Sin is a free act by an individual away from this love. Geo Netizen: I use the word act in a broad sense here which would include thoughts, words and deeds. Geo Netizen: We are called to act in ways that move us to embrace this love.
Storm Nordwind: It's an entirely understandable and self-consistent view, it would seem to me
Storm Nordwind: It's not my own model of the universe but it is one I respect others for having
sophia Placebo: it looked like sufi teachings
Eliza Madrigal: At the love level, all teachings should really be the same.
sophia Placebo: they introduce a whole new gener to the poetry as Divine love poems
Eliza Madrigal: Or maybe should isn't the right word...but I'm thinking of all dissolving
Eliza Madrigal: St. John of the Cross, sophia?
Pema Pera: yes, I love sophia poetry, Rumi for example
Pema Pera: or Mawlana
Storm Nordwind agrees
Pema Pera: (different names for different cultures)
sophia Placebo: st john?
Eliza Madrigal: Not familiar with Mawlana....
Pema Pera: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi
Pema Pera: He is known as Rumi in the West
Pema Pera: but not in the middle east
Eliza Madrigal: OH!
Storm Nordwind: Jalaladin Rumi (sp?)
Pema Pera: (and yes, Eliza, love is one of the main roads into seeing)
sophia Placebo: jalao-eddin rumi
Eliza Madrigal: St. John of the Cross wrote ecstactic Christian poetry..along the lines os Song of Solomon
Eliza Madrigal: I'm somewhat familiar with Rumi
Pema Pera: Hafez is another one
Storm Nordwind: Mystical poet writings can be inspiring from many sources... Sikh, Gnostic, Hindu... all delight in that love
Pema Pera: one of my very favorite Rumi poems is http://www.gratefulness.org/poetry/guest_house.htm
Storm Nordwind: And that poem accords with Buddhist teachings at a deep level too
Pema Pera: very much so
Pema Pera: perfect interpolation between Franciscan and Buddhist views
Pema Pera: Hi Quen!
Storm Nordwind: Hi Quen
sophia Placebo: the other thing that come to my mind about sin and love is a known arabic saying ,maybe it come from sufi poems that says (the lover to whome he love is obediant)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Quen :)
Pema Pera: no summer time yet in Holland, I take it :-)
Eliza Madrigal: It can be astounding how much people can add-on to try love to make love an exclusive idea...
sophia Placebo: hi quen
quen Oh: hi all!
quen Oh: how are you?
Storm Nordwind: Next week is summer time for Europe Pema
Eliza Madrigal: (take out *try love*-strange typing from me this morning-apologize)
Pema Pera: ah, yes, devotion, you mean, Sophia?
Pema Pera: oh, we all make typose, Eliza, some of them quite funny
sophia Placebo: obediance is the word used
Pema Pera: yes, but Quen probably thought it is 7 am right now, SLT :-)
quen Oh: they changed time here?
quen Oh: gosh!
quen Oh: was not knowing that, indeed
Pema Pera: I took your chatlog last week and this week
Pema Pera: but if you like you can claim this one
Storm Nordwind: This is the supposed end of a PaB session rather than the start!
Pema Pera: or I can put it up
quen Oh: yes that would be perfect if you could Pema!
Pema Pera: next week Europe and US are synchronized again
Pema Pera: okay, will do
Pema Pera: I already claimed it
quen Oh: very sorry, was totally distracted and had no idea about the time changes
Eliza Madrigal: obedience....maybe on the order of humility, Sophia? How do you hear the word?
Pema Pera: np, Quen
Pema Pera: or devotion?
quen Oh: must make some schedule and put it in my agenda, perhaps the Succes agenda company should put it into their system these changes
Pema Pera: :-)
sophia Placebo: no obediance out of love
quen Oh: you seem to have an interesting conversation, let me not disturb :-)
Storm Nordwind: (quen, see: http://www.timetemperature.com/tzus/...ing_time.shtml )
quen Oh: (thanks Storm!)
sophia Placebo: devotion i think is a higher level of love
Pema Pera: obedience between human lovers, or between a practitioner and the divine, or both, Sophia?
Pema Pera: (just curious)
sophia Placebo: we use it here for both
quen Oh: doesn't devotion make you more dependent of someone else?
Pema Pera: yes, that is what is so nice about Sufi poetry, that both are blended
Pema Pera: no boundaries
Pema Pera: may I ask where you live, Sophia (you don't have to tell us, of course!)
Pema Pera: not necessarily, Quen
Eliza Madrigal: Obedience is a word that can have baggage for some (me) ... so I'm trying to wrap my brain around the picture with other words :)
Pema Pera: total devotion can set one free -- but it can easily backfire, like everything
Pema Pera: not blind devotion
Pema Pera: I could say that I am totally devoted to "play as Being"
sophia Placebo: you disobey god and you show his love and this is a stange act , if your love was sencier ,you would obey him for the lover to whome he love is obediant
sophia Placebo: this is the full paragraph
Eliza Madrigal: Submitting to one another...clothing one another...these ideas I can easily embrace...even on a Divine level
quen Oh: devotion to art or some project I can recognise, to a person seems different though
Pema Pera: yes, Sophia, I know
Pema Pera: it is very hard to understand that within our Western culture :-)
Pema Pera: we have been talking about going beyond concepts
sophia Placebo: oh im in saudi arabia perma
Pema Pera: fully devotional love can do that
Pema Pera: glad to have you here, Sophia, I'm delighted to have a Sufi voice in our group!
quen Oh: nice sophia!
Pema Pera: but in our culture we are suspicious of fully devotional love
Pema Pera: and we tend to only see the pitfalls (which there are)
sophia Placebo: ty but im not sufi myself ,but i read their poetry ,some of it at least
Pema Pera: and not the royal road to seeing through love
Eliza Madrigal: :) Yes, absolutely (glad to haveyou here Sophia)
Eliza Madrigal: AH...think I'm seeing something closer...that whether the love (devotion) is returned or not...it remains the same...which might be closer to obedience.
Pema Pera: it's nice to have the connection, Sophia -- like in my case, I am not Christian, but through my upbringing in Holland I do appreciate some aspects of Christianity (and not others)
Pema Pera: yes, Eliza
Pema Pera: non-conditional love
Pema Pera: very odd in our culture, almost non-existent
Pema Pera: but no conditions can lead to going beyond concepts
Pema Pera: Saint Francis loved God unconditionally
quen Oh: perhaps the concept of devotion and obedience has lot to do with the expectations you have with it?
Pema Pera: and Geo is following him
sophia Placebo: i think it is cuz obediance in our culture has no negative impact eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh..... :) Now I'm smiling
Pema Pera: ah, that's a central point, Sophia!
Eliza Madrigal: Was crinkling my eyebrows. hahah
Eliza Madrigal: Like meditation/sitting practice...whether there is a *reward* or not...just do it :)
Pema Pera: exactly!
Pema Pera: without expectations
Eliza Madrigal: So, in that way, one can see themselves as obedient, and it is freeing rather than burdensome
quen Oh: that makes a big difference indeed
quen Oh: responsibility of ones actions and decisions is important here perhaps?
Pema Pera: "love and do what you want" said Augustine . . .
Pema Pera: if you *really* love
Eliza Madrigal: : )
Eliza Madrigal: Do no harm...can be difficult to measure that
Storm Nordwind nods
sophia Placebo: well not really , there are 3 kinds of divine love : 1- love out of fear of punshment that is the love of slaves ,2- love out of greed in heavens and that is merchants love 3- love god cuz he deserve it and that is the freemen love
Pema Pera: thank you, Sophia, very nice summary!
Eliza Madrigal: merchants love. Hmmm...great way of putting that
Pema Pera: hell, heaven, earth
Pema Pera: I'll have to move on now, thanks everybody for a wonderful conversation!
Pema Pera: see you all soon again
quen Oh: bye Pema, nice to have seen you
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Pema
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Pema, and for the links/poetry also...timely.
sophia Placebo: bye perma
Pema Pera: :)
Storm Nordwind will no create the textual bell as discussed earlier
Storm Nordwind: *now
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Storm. :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to sit a moment and write the lines Adams asked for...about what PaB means to me...
Eliza Madrigal: This seems like the setting to do it in :)
Eliza Madrigal: Nice conversation this morning guys, thank you.
quen Oh: well nice to meet you Eliza
sophia Placebo: i g2g too , nice to meet you all
quen Oh: and you too Sophia!
Storm Nordwind: Bye sophia :)
quen Oh: bye sophia
Eliza Madrigal: You too, Sophia!
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to meet you also quen!
quen Oh: wish you a good time reading then here :-)
quen Oh: will go and see if my pavillion is still here in SL after over a week of absence
Eliza Madrigal: :) Look forward to seeing you again. Hope so
Storm Nordwind: OK quen, bye for now
quen Oh: likewise Eliza! bye Storm!
Eliza Madrigal: Okay. :) Bye Storm.