2009.04.19 19:00 - Title goes here

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

  

Pila Mulligan: hi Steve

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila

stevenaia Michinaga: Eliza

Eliza Madrigal: Evening :)

Pila Mulligan: hi eliza

Eliza Madrigal: I am stating (to myself) that I will be here just a little while...hahah

Pila Mulligan: me too ;)

Eliza Madrigal: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: and I won't.. so we are clear...smiles

Pila Mulligan: how does this relate to Stims no-fib event?

stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t know that one

stevenaia Michinaga: what did he say

Pila Mulligan: Stim's doing a Thursday course in ethics, a workshop

Pila Mulligan: the practice for this week is not to fib

stevenaia Michinaga: one of my favorite topics

Eliza Madrigal: Right Speech...and paying attention to what that means :)

Pila Mulligan: yes, it is an interesting session

stevenaia Michinaga: well I will be here longer than a little while

Pila Mulligan: is something happening later we should be aware of, Steve?

stevenaia Michinaga: I didn't have that dream yet so I don;t know

Pila Mulligan: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: so you had a prophetic dream, Pila?

Eliza Madrigal: I only stated it that way because sometimes...no, oftentimes, I mean to just come for a little bit, and you all are always so interesting :

Eliza Madrigal: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Dax

Pila Mulligan: hi Dax

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dax

Dax Vyper: hello

stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?

Dax Vyper: no

Pila Mulligan: this looks like your first day in Second Life, Dax

stevenaia Michinaga: here is some information on our discussion group

Dax Vyper: thank you

stevenaia Michinaga: we record our sessions and post them, can we include your comments?

Dax Vyper: yeah

stevenaia Michinaga: thx

Eliza Madrigal: welcome dax :)

Pila Mulligan: http://playasbeing.wik.is/ <-- where the chat logs are posted

stevenaia Michinaga: have a seat if you know how

stevenaia Michinaga: so Pila, back to your dream of future events

stevenaia Michinaga: back

Pila Mulligan: Steve I've had prescient dreams for many years, often enough to be used to them

Pila Mulligan: usually small scale events that I live in real life later

stevenaia Michinaga: nothing that provokes deja vu

stevenaia Michinaga: or a bit more concrete

Pila Mulligan: well, they are in a sense the origins of a deja vu sensation

Pila Mulligan: as I recognize the dream in the event

Pila Mulligan: but not the ambiguous sense of normal deja vu

stevenaia Michinaga: are the events (dream and reality) closely spaced in time?

Pila Mulligan: not necessarily -- they can be, or they can be quite some distance apart

stevenaia Michinaga: I love the context of time in this discussion... using words like space and distance

Pila Mulligan: the architecture of perception

stevenaia Michinaga: indeed

Eliza Madrigal: We bring our capacities for awareness into sleep also

Eliza Madrigal: So if we are more "awake" during the day...why not in dreams as well

Pila Mulligan: not sure I understand Eliza, could you elaborate please

Eliza Madrigal: I mean our sense of clarity and wide perception mostly

Pila Mulligan: can be at different levels during day time and dreaming, you mean?

Pila Mulligan: one the same as the other in the variety of acuity

stevenaia Michinaga: was thinking .... perhaps a dream about a future even takes place in a dream, predicting the future events within the dream

stevenaia Michinaga: the illusion of illusion, the dream within the dream

Pila Mulligan: if I did not misunderstand ELiza, I agree that we have moments of greater lucidity both when waking and dreaming, and my sense is that there is a paired relationship between dreams and days

Pila Mulligan: so our peaks of lucidity, waking and dreaming, we remember best

Pila Mulligan: and they may overlap

Eliza Madrigal: yes, that is what I meant, certainly

Pila Mulligan: in my wild youth I had occasion to lapse into moments of experiments with psychedelics

Pila Mulligan: then there were moments when a waking state seemed like a dream, so it goes both ways

Eliza Madrigal: And do you think this ties into the futuristic dreaming?

Pila Mulligan: no, it was long ago and has been wiped out pretty well by meditation

Pila Mulligan: but the idea that the dream state and waking state can overlap remains

Pila Mulligan: in other words, a moment of great lucidity is remembered for its lucidity, regardless of when it happened

Eliza Madrigal nods

stevenaia Michinaga: I used to write my dreams in a journal, and even today when I read them I can remember then clearly, even if they may not have been particularly lucid, just written immediately after having them

Pila Mulligan: that would be the same for a daytime diary too, I bet

Pila Mulligan: I do both :)

Pila Mulligan: still do

stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t write daytime diaries

stevenaia Michinaga: or didn;t

Eliza Madrigal: There do seem to be treasures. I write mine out more lately, but haven't written daydreams...but will :)

Pila Mulligan: the absence of a memory seems easily overcome by a stimulus that invokes it

Pila Mulligan: what you may want to see if you notice is some parallel between dream events and daytime events

Pila Mulligan: I see it pretty easily sometimes

Pila Mulligan: not just in prescient dreams, but in relationships between people and events

Pila Mulligan: now last night, however, I dreamed along into to a Star Trek episode I'd never seen ... not sure where that relates :)

Eliza Madrigal: :) There is another Star Trek movie being made... :)

Pila Mulligan: ahh, maybe I'm anticipating seeing it :)

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I saw that

Pila Mulligan: you've seen he movie Steve?

stevenaia Michinaga: I saw that there will be another one

stevenaia Michinaga: and I have seen all the others

stevenaia Michinaga: but I suspect not the one in your dream

Pila Mulligan: oh, well in the dream, it was at the start and the enterprise pulled up to a space bar (like a Star Wars scene) and the idea was of some events coming to them from the outer space side of the bar

Pila Mulligan: a space bar like a place for drinks

stevenaia Michinaga: like in the Tribbles episode

Eliza Madrigal: Like some places in Sl...sit around the bar with all sorts of neat creatures. ahah

Pila Mulligan: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I find lately, that the same way I stop and meditate in life, I think I'm dipping into that in sleep...like a sort of clear gap

Pila Mulligan: hi Fruitopus

stevenaia Michinaga: she's gone

Pila Mulligan: yes, I am sure meditation overlaps into dreams

Pila Mulligan: like your earlier reference to peaks and valleys of perception

Pila Mulligan: So if we are more "awake" during the day...why not in dreams as well

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Pila Mulligan: and Steve, just wait til you do tai chi in a dream

Pila Mulligan: it is cool

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: let me get the moves down first

Pila Mulligan: the only thing better is to do it in the ocean

Eliza Madrigal: Oh, nice.

stevenaia Michinaga: isn't that the point... to believe it is in an ocean

Pila Mulligan: on a calm day at about shoulder level in the surf it will be lifting you and dropping you very slowly and the movements are seen for how they coordinate

Pila Mulligan: floating thru them

Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to keep my word and get to sleep early :) Night guys and Thanks. What a nice image to take :)

stevenaia Michinaga: that will be in July at the ocean for me

Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza, sweet dreams :)

stevenaia Michinaga: night Eliza

Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now. :) You too, and thanks :)

Pila Mulligan: Corvi is going to the beach Wednesday, so she will miss the retreat theme session

stevenaia Michinaga: I was surprised that Maxine's meeting this afternoon wasn't at the cafe

Pila Mulligan: she has workshops at the Cafe Tuesdays

Pila Mulligan: this was the time she and Pema used for a while

Pila Mulligan: and Bert suggested the theme for here

stevenaia Michinaga: awww

stevenaia Michinaga: I will try to make it on Wednesday

Pila Mulligan: thanks :)

stevenaia Michinaga: Corvi is at the beach now... and in SL ATM

Pila Mulligan: at a SL beach though?

stevenaia Michinaga: yes

Pila Mulligan: Wednesday is at real life beach, I believe :)

stevenaia Michinaga: no RL beach

stevenaia Michinaga: now

Pila Mulligan: oh, she is there now

stevenaia Michinaga: SL now too

stevenaia Michinaga: yes

Pila Mulligan: I see

Pila Mulligan: April is kind of early for beach weather in NC as I recall

stevenaia Michinaga: she says it was cold, I know the ocean is, but it was 72 here for the first time today here in PA

stevenaia Michinaga: cold for you I;m sure

Pila Mulligan: 72 is fine here :)

Pila Mulligan: I'm at 2300' so it gets chilly here sometimes

Pila Mulligan: 50's

Pila asked some question about space-time and the expanding universe which I am far from qualified to answer but was happy to share what I did know.  I am sure there are better explanations of relativity than mine, so please feel free to add to this.

Pila Mulligan: do you understand physics very well, Steve? ... particularly, the idea of an expanding universe of space-time?

stevenaia Michinaga: somewhat, I watch to much NOVA and listen about string theory

Pila Mulligan: that idea has been stuck in my mind for weeks

Pila Mulligan: it may have given me my first sense of grasping relativity, but I'm not at all sure my grasp relates to physics :)

stevenaia Michinaga: read Isaac Asimov in my youth

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: do you think it is literally like an expanding sphere?

stevenaia Michinaga: like the skin of a balloon

stevenaia Michinaga: I think we reside on the surface only

Pila Mulligan: okay, so if you go faster than light you go faster than time ... :)

stevenaia Michinaga: questions for Pema, but I don't think that is possible

stevenaia Michinaga: you can't go faster than light speed

Pila Mulligan: isn't Einstein's theory of relativity that a space traveller going faster than  light ages slower than his friends on earth

stevenaia Michinaga: gods hand at work, I suppose

stevenaia Michinaga: no as you get closer to the speed of light, time slows and mass increases

Pila Mulligan: okay, so the faster you go the slower it gets

stevenaia Michinaga: that's way everyone at home gets old and appears that you don;t age

Pila Mulligan: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: to those you left

Pila Mulligan: so it is like a short cut across the expanding balloon?

Pila Mulligan: you get there before they do

stevenaia Michinaga: no you are still on the surface going ever faster and closer to the speed of light

Pila Mulligan: or vice versa

Pila Mulligan: well, there goes my rationale :)

stevenaia Michinaga: short cuts are warps or worm holes

Pila Mulligan: I was thinking that if you travel faster than the expansion rate it would account for the age difference

stevenaia Michinaga: time never goes backwards except in star trek

stevenaia Michinaga: and you never get to the future before someone else does

Pila Mulligan: but you get there younger

Pila Mulligan: in less time, therefore

stevenaia Michinaga: no, you are less young as time passes normally for you, everyone else got old and died

Pila Mulligan: why is there a aging difference?

stevenaia Michinaga: speed close to light slows time down for the thing moving close to speed of light (you, for instance)

stevenaia Michinaga: hence relativity, time and mass are relative to the observer

stevenaia Michinaga: relative

Pila Mulligan: so in slower time you age more slowly, but that would seem to mean that you are going through history more slowly too

stevenaia Michinaga: (note to log readers: please correct me in the comments if my understanding is not correct )

Pila Mulligan: and I am sure mine are incoherent, so pardon them as well :)

stevenaia Michinaga: well you are aging slower at that speed, but everyone else isn;t so they get older faster relative to you but normal for them

Pila Mulligan: so they get to point B more slowly than I do

Pila Mulligan: that was where I wanted to connect it to the idea of expanding space and time

Pila Mulligan: I get to point B more quickly because I take a short cut across the expansion rate

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, if they came to visit it may take them 100,000 years to get where you are, so they are all gone by then

Pila Mulligan: ok, se let's say I fly the Enterprise as close to warp 1 as possible in a big circle out to a remote place in space and back -- and so then on my return you are a little older than I am, thanks to Dr. Einstein

Pila Mulligan: say it takes ten years

Pila Mulligan: for me

Pila Mulligan: and ten years + x for you

Pila Mulligan: could x be related to the expansion rate of space-time?

stevenaia Michinaga: I didn;t know it is related to the speed you traveled more then the physics of the expanding universe

stevenaia Michinaga: as far as I know

Pila Mulligan: well, the funny thought is that this logic leads me to believe I would also be a little smaller than you, relatively, as I would not have expanded as much with space and time :)

Pila Mulligan: my corpuscles and atoms would still be more compact

Pila Mulligan: i.e. unexpanded

Pila Mulligan: due tot he short cut thru space and time

Pila Mulligan: take less time, takes less space :)

Pila Mulligan: by a factor of x

stevenaia Michinaga: the time space diet... I see

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: an excellent novel

Pila Mulligan: but probably weak science

stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like a hollywood fat to come, the Einstein diet

stevenaia Michinaga: fad

Pila Mulligan: both :)

stevenaia Michinaga: but you get heavier, (and shorter, not lighter)

Pila Mulligan: stay behind, fat -- board the starship, fad

Pila Mulligan: you get heavier if you stay, don;t you?

Pila Mulligan: less mass

Pila Mulligan: more mass

stevenaia Michinaga: no your mass increases as you speed up, making it impossible to accelerate mass to the speed of light as you get infinitely heavy\

Pila Mulligan: ah, time slows and mass increases

Pila Mulligan: c*

stevenaia Michinaga: so you can only put very thin people to very high speeds

Pila Mulligan: I see

Pila Mulligan: so the x factor affects time by keeping you younger and mass by keeping you more compact

Pila Mulligan: more dense

I took the cue and decided to downgrade the conversation as it was getting late

stevenaia Michinaga: lol

stevenaia Michinaga: slow and stupid

Pila Mulligan: sounds right

Pila Mulligan: any fool can see that

Pila Mulligan: I can see that!

stevenaia Michinaga: while getting fast and dense

Pila Mulligan: so the diet is simply to go slow

Pila Mulligan: very slow

stevenaia Michinaga: apparently

stevenaia Michinaga: there is a book on the physics of star trek

Pila Mulligan: ok, well this was nice to try to put in words the ideas that have been crowding my mind lately

Pila Mulligan: is it close to the physics of real life (so-called)

stevenaia Michinaga: grins

stevenaia Michinaga: a fitting end to the weekend

stevenaia Michinaga: thanks

Pila Mulligan: thank you

Pila Mulligan: I am going to try the go slow weight loss diet

stevenaia Michinaga: tai chi

Pila Mulligan: true

Pila Mulligan: by the time you get the tai chi biscuit from your plate to your mouth ...

stevenaia Michinaga: will try to see you Wed

Pila Mulligan: see you then Steve -- aloha