2010.05.21 07:00 - "Genuine Mind of Sadness"

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza, who was joined by Pema, Eos, Bleu, Yakuzza, Zen, Lucinda, Fael, and a visitor who agreed to leave in comments, but have her name edited out. I hope it isn't too confusing for log readers, but I chose to let ":" represent our new friend. 

This is quite a powerful session in which Eos brings a profound topic from his recent travels. This gives each of us much to consider about stories, in particular collective & painful ones, and the view(s) of the sharers ... 

Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: ::waves:: Hi Pema :))
Pema Pera waves back from across the pond, waiting for cushions to rezz
Pema Pera: good morning!
Eliza Madrigal clicks to close a million notices
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: hi Eos!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos!
Eliza Madrigal: Welcome back :)
Pema Pera: Three friends . . . .
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eliza and Pema!
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Pema Pera: still in Poland?
Eos Amaterasu grins
Eos Amaterasu: No, back in Canada
Pema Pera: ah, with jetlag and without ash cloud!
Eos Amaterasu: where it's still early springtime, buds just starting to leaf out
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :))
Bleu Oleander: hi everyone!
Pema Pera: hi Bleu!
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, sounds lovely Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Bleu Bleu, hi!
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu, another NY texture? :)
Bleu Oleander: yes, Yves Klein today :)
Pema Pera: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Nice
Bleu Oleander: ty
Eos Amaterasu: :-)

Eos begins to share some of what his recent trip to Poland involved, and Blue points us toward a new page for the current Art of Being exploration ...

Eliza Madrigal: So how was your trip Eos? Restful? Exciting?
Eos Amaterasu: Journey into the unknown.... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
Bleu Oleander: I hope you all don't mind .... last evening Calvino helped me start an Art of Being page on the wiki
Pema Pera: oh, how nice!
Eliza Madrigal: I noticed that this morning Bleu, really great!
Eos Amaterasu: I met a friend there whom I had not seen in 32 years
Pema Pera: !!
Eliza Madrigal: 32 years... goodness
Eos Amaterasu: She also grew up in Montreal, in similar karmic circumstances as I, she Polish Jewish, me Polish Christian
Eliza Madrigal: And you recently became in touch? or...?
Eos Amaterasu: We explored a few places.... with background in meditation, how to relate to "genuine mind of sadness"
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, recently, last 6 months
Eliza Madrigal: mm, 'genuine mind of sadness'... Say more?

Eos Amaterasu: being touched, with unrequited transparent/full quality

Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Pema Pera: hi Zen!
Eos Amaterasu: also feeling karmic burdens, and effect of that on you
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Zen
Eos Amaterasu was flying over Ireland yesterday
Eliza Madrigal: karmic burdens over generations?
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi everybody
Zen Arado: did you see me wave Eos?

Eos Amaterasu: Yes... we're both children of concentration camp survivors, for example

Eos Amaterasu recalls something moving way down there
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: children from concentration camp survivors and yet with diff. family paradigms as you mentioned...
Zen Arado: family paradigms?

Eos Amaterasu: could also be extra twist: you could think of yourself as so affected because you're one of the victims, reborn
Eos Amaterasu: but also you could be one of the victimizers, reborn

Eliza Madrigal: I'll give you a note, Zen/ one second :)
Zen Arado: ty
Pema Pera: Hi Lucinda!
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I see. Did you and she discuss that, Eos?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Lucinda :))
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Pema,Eliza, Eos
Eos Amaterasu: She is writing a book on that theme...
Bleu Oleander: hi Lucinda
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Lucinda
Pema Pera: that must be quite a challenge . . . .
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Bleu, Zen...
Pema Pera: is she writing from a particular angle from a tradition, like Hindu or Buddhist, or more generally about the idea of being reborn?

Eos Amaterasu: yes: how to hold that in a mind/heart that does not look away

Zen Arado: Hi Lucinda
Pema Pera: Hi Yaku!
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Seems a title "A heart that does not look away"
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Pema Pera: hi Fael!
Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya and Fael :))
Eos Amaterasu: She is also a student of Chogyam Trungpa (in fact she was my meditation instructor at Karme-Choling)
Pema Pera: ah!
Eliza Madrigal: Oooh
Bleu Oleander: hi Yaku, Fael :)
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
Pema Pera: Hi ___!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi ___ :)
Zen Arado: Hi Fael:)
____: hi
Bleu Oleander: hi ____
Zen Arado: Hi ____
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Fael,___, Yaku

Eos Amaterasu: So yes, Pema, the point of view, or the practice, is "with a genuine mind of sadness (ie, vulnerable to be touched), suddenly free from fixed mind"

Eliza Madrigal gave notes to everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: So sadness in the sense of softness...
Eos Amaterasu: And also exploring how that happens, and can be found, in this case in the culture and ancestral ethos of that country (Poland in this case)
Eos Amaterasu: as well as applying that to herself, and people like her, who are second generation descendants...
Eliza Madrigal: Did you discover something in particular from the conversations?
Eos Amaterasu: I feel I just dipped in a bit; will be ongoing process to digest, work further
Eliza Madrigal: rich material

Eos Amaterasu: one thing is that experience is felt and "ours", but in a sense is not owned by us
Eos Amaterasu: feeling of ownership turns it into a thing

Eliza Madrigal: mmm, yes

Eos Amaterasu: letting go of owning opens it up to a much bigger world

Eliza Madrigal: So hm.. a sense of 'sharing' the sadness even?
Pema Pera: how nice that you could share that, Eos, on such deep topics!
Eos Amaterasu: yes, sharing the sadness was perhaps a key theme (is perhaps)
Pema Pera: can either of you talk with your parents about these topics?
Eliza Madrigal: That's a beautiful topic Eos... for us all. Much to see in that...
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm.... in her case basically not, except toward the end of her mother's life
Eos Amaterasu: in my case perhaps (with my mom)

Sometimes we turn away from serious topics due a sense of not being able to go back, but as Eos mentioned there can be residuals to learn from.

Also we consider that each person faces day-to-day, situations that require 'staying with' AND 'letting go' at once...

Eliza Madrigal: maybe this stance of non-ownership re our experience, etc. is the 'difference', in a way, between sadness and depression... Depression causes someone to close in/not share, feel the weights as theirs to bear alone?
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: but the letting go part is important too... Seems that in some psychological models that isn't present... so sharing becomes a way to be stuck?
Eos Amaterasu: Did you mean "to be unstuck"?
Eliza Madrigal: No...
Eliza Madrigal: I probably didn't phrase myself well there....
Eliza Madrigal: There is a way of 'telling' things which doesn't include 'release' in the same way as perhaps in a hm... mindful/meditative way one would share and let go...
Eos Amaterasu: It becomes a reference story?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus thinks about the issue that he felt sometimes stuck after talking about problems and focused on the ,,problem" issue without actually letting go of a problem and really felt more stuck after taking about it
Zen Arado: or feel sorry you did share....
Eliza Madrigal: Well, like we were talking about the dream circle, and sharing what seems very personal, in a non-ownership way...
Eliza Madrigal: which allows for a different kind of view
Zen Arado: I still can't quite see the benefit of that if there issn't any feedback or interpretation?
Eliza Madrigal: So I was thinking what you were describing is similar Eos
Zen Arado: to me sharing isn't sharing without feedback
Eliza Madrigal: the benefit is collective?
Lucinda Lavender: In dream circle there is a listening to the images that is not exactly sharing.
Eliza Madrigal: like you seeing/ Being seeing, in a way? Letting go (or just holding lightly) of 'only' personal view
Zen Arado: yes but I want the view of others
Eliza Madrigal: :) Okay... send me your dream zen, and I'll give a report.. giggle
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Lucinda Lavender: To give an example...one one night three dreams came that pointed to the topic of abuse...
: I think maybe sometimes just being able to express something in stead of it existing within only internally can also be sharing, simply just by speaking
Zen Arado: maybe...but I can't seem to grasp that atm
Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods usha
Zen Arado: probably ego looking for ratification?
Lucinda Lavender: perhaps...

: sometimes when we hold things within our inner walls unexpressed they simply lie dormant, and cant be healed
Zen Arado: it's always ego's fault :)
: just because they never breathe or coem to teh surface
Eliza Madrigal: and yet there is often a sense that if one shares then they'll be 'pinned down' into what they shared...
Eliza Madrigal: identified with that
Zen Arado: yes
Eos Amaterasu: exactly, Eliza!
Zen Arado: maybe part of my uneasiness
Pema Pera: which is probably why we tend to hold things within our inner walls
Zen Arado: and fear people will talk about us....
Lucinda Lavender: and in listening to dreams when certain topics come up they are seen as being "understood" by the dreamer.
Pema Pera: shared acknowledgement
Eliza Madrigal: so it is quite a practice then, in various ways, to trust the 'space in the middle' as it were

--BELL--

: at times soemthing can be so painful, that we cant communicate it because we are trapped in the fear of it. Just being able to voice such pain can be a liberation
Pema Pera nods
Lucinda Lavender: ll nods
Eliza Madrigal: indeed usha, empty it of its charge a bit
Zen Arado: nods
Eliza Madrigal: like calling a bluff
Zen Arado: earth it
: yes and also freeing oneself of teh torment of fear
Zen Arado: makes you look at it, clarify it
Zen Arado: see it for what it is - often a phantom
Lucinda Lavender: in a dream circle as the commenting proceeds in a circular motion there is a sort of polishing of the image...
: but also allows u to be safe and accept your experince
Lucinda Lavender: then like a tone...it can deliver its gift of light.
Lucinda Lavender: stone...
Eliza Madrigal: A circle can indeed set a tone :)
: sometimes we are in fear of our fear
Lucinda Lavender: that too
Zen Arado: nothing to fear but fear itself.....
Pema Pera: I'm getting a bit sleepy -- almost midnight here, so I'll say goodbye. Thanks, Eos, for sharing!

Pema leaves, once again reminding us of the new Art as Being page...

And Bleu, I had a quick look at your Art of Being web site, http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Art -- thank you for setting that up!
Eos Amaterasu: 'night Pema
Zen Arado: bye Pema
Eliza Madrigal: Night Pema :) Sleep well
Bleu Oleander: yw!
Bleu Oleander: bye Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pema
: gn
Eliza Madrigal: Art can be cathartic in the same way... thinking about that...
Lucinda Lavender: we are silmutaneously working together on many aspects of experience I think... dreaming together all aspects
Eliza Madrigal: often born of sadness and facing fears
Bleu Oleander: yes Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: and of dreams, too :)
: we have muc which is hidden within the unconscious, that is so deeply imbedded. Were we to have access to much of that and be able to express that and actualise the understanding of such, our experience would be incredibly different
Bleu Oleander: we feel vulnerable when we share our private thoughts, ideas and often fear rejection from others
: which is teh fear of fear we spk of bleu
Bleu Oleander: fear of rejection, yes
: sometimes we also fear were we to acknowledge our pain, how we might also judge ourselves not just others
Zen Arado: nods
Eliza Madrigal: yes.... I guess what I find powerful about trusting the space, in a sense.

Eos Amaterasu: also the fear that were we to put out our story, with the possibility that feedback on it could change it or question it, we would not longer have the same story to refer to

Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes
: yes we all identify thorugh our story and play this out, its a manufacturing of the ego
Eliza Madrigal: Or what if the story had 'no' end and beginning...

Eos Amaterasu: but then a deeper, and wider, story could emerge; sharing that opens vs sharing that reinforces

: what if there was no story
Eos Amaterasu: heh - good luck!
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Zen Arado: or if we dumped the stroy
Eliza Madrigal: storyless nature of stories
Bleu Oleander: we are story tellers
Zen Arado: untold stories
Eliza Madrigal: It seems powerful to be able to be part of the sharing
Lucinda Lavender: I once attended a story telling event.
: well to dump the story might mean we simply open to real experience for no longer are we placing constraints in order to live our story

--BELL--

Lucinda Lavender: in it at the end we were invited to say what we were struck by. This was the gift of the experience as both the teller, the story, and all the ancestors were participating and "Being Together". Opening the story in a sense..

Bleu Oleander: are stories how we experience reality?
Eos Amaterasu suspects there is no "reality" without story
Zen Arado: think we do mostly Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: I think its definitely material, and 'how' a group works with it seems important... the process, in anything
Zen Arado: or interpretations

Eos Amaterasu: even, or especially, pereception is a story

: i think maybe our inner internal story can in a symbiotic sense affect our experince, by the choices we make unconsciously due to our inner story

Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes
Zen Arado: the story of 'me'
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lucinda :) Have a nice day
Lucinda Lavender: Good day to all...
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Zen Arado: bye Lucinda
Fael Illyar: Yes, the stories are a part of our experience.
: gd
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos :) Welcome home
Fael Illyar: Have fun Lucinda :)
Eos Amaterasu: Must also go, bye all, thanks!
Bleu Oleander: bye everyone
Lucinda Lavender: thank you...
Fael Illyar: have fun Eos :)
Zen Arado: bye everyone
: bye
Fael Illyar: Have fun Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen
Eliza Madrigal: And Bleu :)
Fael Illyar: Have fun Bleu :)
Eliza Madrigal: hhehe
Bleu Oleander: cu all
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone

Fael, ___, and I are struck by the quick exodus...

Eliza Madrigal: People are so punctual these days :)
: by
Fael Illyar: Quite punctual :)
Bleu Oleander: got to get to work!
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, that. ;-D
Bleu Oleander: :(
: grins
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you :)) Thanks
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ya!
Eliza Madrigal: (for the log)
: so funny
: giggles
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
: well just went from such an in depth conversation to v quick goodbyes
Eliza Madrigal: Right? hah
: smiles
Fael Illyar: kind of shocking to see a deep conversation like this suddenly vaporize like that :)
Eliza Madrigal: amazing really
Eliza Madrigal: but it says something too...
: yes, i think thast what i meant

: but i think it was such a gift to be here

Eliza Madrigal: stories only have 'too much power' when we can't let them go....
Eliza Madrigal: when they become endless loops we get stuck in
: yes
Eliza Madrigal: which is sooooo easy
: nods knowingly
Fael Illyar: yes, very easy :)
: i want to put an end to my story now
Fael Illyar: self reinforcing loops even
Eliza Madrigal: Yup Fael
Eliza Madrigal: Is that your way of saying bye ___? heh.. or do you mean in a larger more personal sense?

: i know its time for me to close a chapter, and a story, I couldnt let go of. Because now its simply destroying me
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, a turning point
Fael Illyar: Yes, those are both blissful and painful.
Eliza Madrigal: mm, indeed
: yes, smiles very much so
Eliza Madrigal: for some reason it makes me think of a gnostic gospel line 'if you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you; if you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you"
Fael Illyar: I like that :)
: yes its amusing how it has a parellel also
Eliza Madrigal: resonates... like we have experiences and pain and pleasure and joy... but isn't meant to be bottled up
: in that if we surface oour love it is our love that will save us, and if we don not surface our fear it will destroy us
Fael Illyar: yes... it's like like avoiding pain. You can avoid the feeling or the cause of the feeling. The latter usually leading to a saner response.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes interesting

Feelings and their Causes

: whats the cause of feeling?
Eliza Madrigal: there's a balance though... 'over' exposure can occur too
Fael Illyar: well, in case I get a cut in my finger, the cause is the act that caused the cut.
Fael Illyar: the feeling comes after
: yes i agree with eliza regarding the issue of over exposure, feelings can become diluted thorugh continual repetition
Eliza Madrigal: you didn't decide to cut your finger... so couldn't have avoided it?
: oh ok so the catalyst or instigator
Eliza Madrigal: but hm... can become more sensitive and careful perhaps...

--BELL--

Fael Illyar: If I focus only on not feeling pain, I might even go as far as make sure I can't feel the pain but do nothing about being cut. Which would of course be stupid but highlights the difference.
: yes, like closing oneself down to avoid fear surfacing that we are in fear of
Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh, nodding
Fael Illyar: equally with the fear of fear.
Fael Illyar: it's the feeling you want to avoid,not the cause of it
: sure
Eliza Madrigal: so how do we 'stay with the sadness' like Eos described...

Eliza Madrigal: long enough for it to empty
Fael Illyar: in many cases, avoiding the feeling leads to inability to avoiding the cause of the feeling.
Fael Illyar: because you shut the feeling out if you don't want to feel it.
: i still dont understand cause of feeling
Fael Illyar: that will result in not seeing what actually causes it
: i understand one can have a wound
: i understand that one can have soemthing which has created a wound
Eliza Madrigal: so there has to be a sense of confidence that whatever one shares or feels, it isnt permanent... can face it because its open in some way even though you may not see that at first
: maybe that comes from how we define experience
Fael Illyar: ___, feelings don't just appear without a cause. Some feelings are self created, others are sensory feelings, tied to what happens to the body.
Fael Illyar: and of course, some feelings are the, possibly complex and delayed, result of self created feelings.
: all experience stay with us, no matetr how big or small. Some experince is more memorable, soem more life changing, some completely forgettable. How we define within ourselves experince depends on how we can utilise it to our ebenfit or not
Eliza Madrigal: interesting though... the phrase 'how we define'... If we see ourselves as closed, separate... having to protect ourselves all the time
Eliza Madrigal: that can be exhausting :))
: if we believe that because we have experinced the most painful thing our lives should be over, then maybe that is what we will create
: if we understand we are infinite beings on a journey, and thus will ahve a myriad of experince throuighout one life course of ranging experinces then we relate to experince in a different way
Fael Illyar: Did I manage to explain the "cause of feeling" understandably?

Eliza Madrigal: ___, btw, I'd like to edit out just your name if that's okay... leaving the comments?

: ok so u r saying, in avoiding the cause of feeling, one may do this in order to avoid the feeling?
Eliza Madrigal: I think so Fael... its difficult to get at seeing 'cause' sometimes, but I think I understood your general point about avoidance
: yes pls
Eliza Madrigal: its like defensiveness
: sure yes i apprecaite that
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks  :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, my point is mostly that if it's to avoid the feeling, it can be detrimental to actually avoiding the cause.
: ty also :)
Eliza Madrigal: agreed Fael... in a simple way, it suppose its like creating a romanticism around something by saying 'never do this'
Eliza Madrigal: so there is something not satisfied til it pushes that button
Eliza Madrigal: :)
: ok, so in the cutting of ones finger how would one avoid the cause
Fael Illyar: there's too many ways to do that to give a general guideline. Except keep your fingers away from sharp things :)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: phone, brb
: can u maybe put in such a context to show
: so a wife may avoid considering her husband is abusive because this bring up her feelings of fear of being alone?
: is that cause of feeling?
Fael Illyar: yes, exactly
: ok
: or we may avoid soemone that reminds of of a painful past we havent adressed
Fael Illyar: however, considering the husband abusive is not the only cause for the fear.
Fael Illyar: there must also be beliefs that being alone is not good and that if the husband is abusive, she must leave him.
--BELL--
: sure the pain was already in existence to have created the disempowering relationship
Fael Illyar: yes, if we avoid the feeling, we will tend to avoid much more than necessary.
Fael Illyar: to avoid the cause.
: yes this coems back to a symbiotic relationship with experince
: and with both the conscious and unconscious mind in our role as independent creators
Eliza Madrigal: Apologies... have to go. I look forward to reading ther rest of the log... :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks guys
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now
Fael Illyar: Have fun Eliza :)
: ty eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :::waves:::
: smiles
Fael Illyar: and also, if we're in a situation where the case of the feeling could be avoided but not without spending a while learning how, trying to avoid the feeling could make it impossible.
: ok so your focus is avoidance when considering the cause of feelings
Fael Illyar: that's my main thing myself... I've found that I've been avoiding feelings a lot. Still keep finding more of them.
: yes its quite visible that has bene a personal discovery for you. It seems quite recent also, almost as though its still processing within you
: been*
Fael Illyar: yes, still going on :)
Fael Illyar: A lot of what's kept me moving has been avoiding a feeling or another.
Fael Illyar: not a very stable source of motivation, as you can probably imagine :)
: i think what you are speaking of from personal experince fael, is an awakening in discovering that you have been living your life, in repsect of avoidance due to pain you have been afraid to acknowledge
Fael Illyar: yes, that is quite accurate.
Fael Illyar: pain I've been afraid to acknowledge, even to myself.
: that is maybe your personal experince, and of course many will share in that exercise, when experincing pain. However not everyone will relate to that or will identify pain and deal with it in the smae way
: may i share soemthing with u which maybe of interest to you?
Fael Illyar: sure, please go ahead :)
: There were soem specific psychological scientific studies done many years ago with babies
: admitedly I cant off the top of my head at the moment tell u under took them
: however it isnt to hard to find out and its a concept of child development
: the study was set up in such a way, that babies over the age of six months would be left in a roomm alone or with soemone they didnt know
: the mother would spend a few minuted with them then leave
: there were four general responses that were specifically identified with that determined the personality type of these children
--BELL--
: they wopuld be depending on their responses be marked as type, a, b, c, or d babies
: ok
Fael Illyar: yes?
Fael Illyar: so, what were those responses?
: now these categories were specific indicators of how these children would lead their lives as adults from everything to do with the types of relationships they would ahveand even teh careers they would choose
: they could even indicate whetehr children would be potentially participate in crime
: now soem babies would immediately welcome their motehrs back
: soem would ignore their motehrs for a while as punsihment
: soem wouldnt stop howling from the moment she left to teh moment she came back
: it was only soemthing like 5-10 mins at most they were left for
: and soem rejected her
: the ones that rejected her were called anxious avoidant babies
Fael Illyar: what does it mean, in practise, that the baby rejected the mother?
Fael Illyar: as in, how would such a baby act.
Fael Illyar: ah, wb :)
: smiles
: sorry crash
Fael Illyar: you mentioned that some babies rejected the mother. What does tha mean in practise? How did the bab act?
: ok well if u wish to look at the study, its john bowlby
: and the theory is the attachment theory
Fael Illyar: Ah, found :)
Fael Illyar: Thank you.
: yw