2012.01.21 13:00 - Twixt Stars and Stones

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments and photo are by Bruce Mowbray.

Korel Laloix: heya
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Korel.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: What you up to today?
Bruce Mowbray: Just proof-reading a letter I wrote this afternoon to an inmate.
Bruce Mowbray: the guy who was my inmate clerk when I taught at the prison about 30 years ago.
Korel Laloix: OH wow... what did you teach?
Korel Laloix: I spent one night in jail and that was enough.
Bruce Mowbray: I taught different classes in prep for the GED exam.
Bruce Mowbray: mostly English language skills and literature.
Bruce Mowbray: I don't think I could manage even one night, frankly.
Bruce Mowbray: Mike is doing five consecutive life sentences...
Korel Laloix: I really did not have a choice in the matter... lol
Bruce Mowbray: and he has not yet finished the first of those...
Bruce Mowbray: even though he's been incarcerated for over 30 years.
Korel Laloix: He got way off the path it sounds.
Bruce Mowbray: He was very severely abused as a young child..
Bruce Mowbray: and it burrowed deep into his being. . .
Bruce Mowbray: and eventually he became a serial rapist...
Bruce Mowbray: and that was that.
Bruce Mowbray: He is probably my best friend in the whole world...
Korel Laloix: Ouch.
Bruce Mowbray: and definitely the person who has done the best work on himself...
Korel Laloix: I feel for him, but also know we make our own choices.
Bruce Mowbray: but, unfortunately, he had to go to jail to be able to do it.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, he would be the first to agree with you -- but I don't think he ever had a chance.
Bruce Mowbray: . . . a kid who from the age of seven is raped by priests and nuns. . .
Korel Laloix: One of the reasons I don't want to have babies..... afraid of what I might pass on.
Bruce Mowbray: well, not a whole lot of choice in that for him.   His roommate hanged himself at the age of thirteen -- right in their room.
Bruce Mowbray: Me too, Kori.  Afraid of what I might pass on.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm a lot better suited to raising dogs than raising kids.
Bruce Mowbray puts down his letter to Mike.
Korel Laloix: A fear of mine at least.
Korel Laloix: One of the things I am working on with my new shrink.
Bruce Mowbray: At the age of 69, there's not a whole lot of worries about such things for me anymore.
Bruce Mowbray: I do feel that the most important "work" we do is on ourselves.
Korel Laloix: True, but I am sure there are other things that temp your mind.
Bruce Mowbray: I've seen my share of shrinks, too.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes, fortunately, I have lots of great temptations!
Korel Laloix: Working on ourselves is also probably some of the most difficult.
Bruce Mowbray: The most difficult and the most important.
Bruce Mowbray: If we don't work on ourselves, who else would? or could?
Korel Laloix: More for those around us though than for ourselves I think.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, eventually it does seem to turn out like that.
Bruce Mowbray: I guess that's partly why I continue to write to Mike, actually.
Bruce Mowbray: aside from the fact that he's a great friend and has also helped me immeasurably.

Korel Laloix: For me, the first time I saw a real psychologist it was under court order.
 Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Korel Laloix: Looking back, I feel for that guy. having to work with someone like me... lol
Korel Laloix: Help can come from very strange places.
Bruce Mowbray: lol.
Korel Laloix: I was very resistant to it at first...
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I do understand . . .
Korel Laloix: But quickly fell for the idea of being helped.
Bruce Mowbray remembers his own being dragged kicking and screaming.
Bruce Mowbray: You enjoyed being helped?
Korel Laloix: Reading back through the notes he wrote up is sort of funny.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Korel Laloix: It took a couple of sessions..... I think it was more that this guy actually acted like he gave a s%^t about me.
Korel Laloix: And that was very rare for me at the time.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I've been reading and listening to a lot of stuff about "therapy" recently.
Korel Laloix: So, I think I liked that more than the idea of counseling.
Bruce Mowbray: and it seems almost universally accepted now. . that compassion trumps method. . .
Korel Laloix: There are lots of ways to look at it.
Bruce Mowbray: . . . and it doesn't matter so much "how" therapy is actually done, as long as it is done with compassion.
Korel Laloix: Yes, if I understand what you mean.
Bruce Mowbray: So -- witch doctor, or shaman, or guru, or medical specialist...
Bruce Mowbray: The compassion is the thing.
Korel Laloix: Or Tarot card reader...
Bruce Mowbray: sure -- or just about anything.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: People that know how to listen, know how to help.
Bruce Mowbray: You've just said why Mike is my best friend -- he listens to everything . . . and has for over thirty years.
Korel Laloix: But accepting being listened to is not as easy as we may think.
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh! You've hit on it now!
Korel Laloix: I am glad you have that relationship.
Bruce Mowbray: thank you.
Bruce Mowbray: me too, obviously.
Bruce Mowbray: I think that the stuff I dumped on Mike today might have been the roughest of all.
Korel Laloix: I had that sort of growing up with Peg and her mom.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Korel Laloix: But lost it for a while and did not get it back until years later.
Korel Laloix: brb
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: me too -- brb.
Bruce Mowbray sings to himself: "Red red wine, you make me feel so fine!"
Korel Laloix: Back.
Bruce Mowbray: me too.
Korel Laloix: Now I have a few very close listening friends, but I do find that some are better at listening to me on different subjects.
Korel Laloix: I am sure I am the same way though.
Korel Laloix: I have a low tolerance for listening to my pals talk about how bad it is to date loser guys.... no sympathy from me... lol
Bruce Mowbray: lol.
Korel Laloix: I do wish I was better about it though.
Bruce Mowbray: I prefer not to get sympathy - - just a listener who cares, but who doesn't feel it necessary to try to solve my problems for me.
Korel Laloix: I had a couple of counseling classes early on in my undergrad, and I quickly realized that clinical psychology was NOT for me... lol
Bruce Mowbray: I also don't need to hear others' prejudiced opinions about things that are really my own to figure out . . .
Korel Laloix: That feeling is more common for women than men.
Bruce Mowbray: I don't do well in clinical psychology, either.
Bruce Mowbray: But I'm a big fan of "archetypal psychology" --
Korel Laloix: I don't like to have ideas pushed at me, but I do like to ask questions about my own ideas.
Bruce Mowbray: a la James Hillman.
Korel Laloix: It is such a big area of thought.
Bruce Mowbray: Sure, if you ask those questions -- then others' answering is cool.
Korel Laloix: Hard to say what normal is.
Bruce Mowbray: but when others push their own opinions onto me, I don't do well with it.
Korel Laloix: So, I think that is my way of accepting help.
Korel Laloix: You and me both.
Bruce Mowbray: There is no "normal" -- fortunately.
Bruce Mowbray: Normal is a myth.
Bruce Mowbray: a false shortcut.
Bruce Mowbray: an illusion.
Korel Laloix: Well, actually, I am PERFECTly normal, everyone else is weird.... smiles
Bruce Mowbray: a fiction. . . that we assume is somehow workable.
Bruce Mowbray: me too, Kori!
Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....
Korel Laloix: It is a range of behaviours.
Bruce Mowbray: I can't believe the LAG here today!
Korel Laloix: Some are clearly not good for us or those around us.
Korel Laloix: Funny enough, it is way fast for me and I am on my cellphone connection and through a proxy..
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, we each have a range of "toxic" situations in our lives.
Bruce Mowbray: My internet connection has been very slow all day - - I keep getting timed out of the simplest things.
Bruce Mowbray: (like email).
Korel Laloix: Another interesting thing for me is, when I started accepting help I had an idea of what I thought I needed to work on, what I needed to be like to be "well"
Bruce Mowbray: Can you see images on your cell phone?
Bruce Mowbray: I mean images in Second Life?
Korel Laloix: And that vision has changed so much and so often it is sort of funny.
Bruce Mowbray: You mean your image of accepting help?
Korel Laloix: I am not on my cellphone, I am on a USB stick that connects to the internet through the cellphone network.
Bruce Mowbray: oh cool!
Korel Laloix: Images of what "well" looked like.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, it has changed considerably for me, also.
Korel Laloix: So I can get internet on my lap top in most of the country.
Bruce Mowbray: I was raised to conform to others' expectations of me --
Bruce Mowbray: not to my own nature or being.
Bruce Mowbray: so, it took decades to outgrow that one!

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: Yes, it took me a while to figure out I was not what my mother said I was.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) me too, Kori!
Korel Laloix: Then longer to convince myself that I was not what I thought I was as well.
Bruce Mowbray: but I also realize, now, that my mom was doing the best she could. . .
Korel Laloix: Self-given negative labels are very hurting and very hard to get out from under.
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Korel Laloix: Well, my mom was not.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: My mother was "split" right down the middle. . .
Bruce Mowbray: She was brutal and cruel --
Bruce Mowbray: but she was also a kind hero - -
Bruce Mowbray: and I admired her tremendously -- as well as hating things she did to me.
Bruce Mowbray: so, I guess I was also of two minds about all of it.
Bruce Mowbray: took many years to sort it all out.
Korel Laloix: She tried to kill me, put me in the emergency room repeatedly, starved me, emotionally tortured me, etc.
Korel Laloix: It was not pretty, and no, I am not exaggerating.
Bruce Mowbray: I believe you, entirely.
Bruce Mowbray: The question for me is how to "use" all of those experiences in the "work" I do on myself.
Korel Laloix: So I really had no anchoring growing up.
Bruce Mowbray: Awareness is key, I think.
Korel Laloix: But.... I am fixing that.
Korel Laloix: Exactly.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, even now I watch myself reacting to her . . . emotionally.
Bruce Mowbray: but at least I am watching it.
Korel Laloix: My big project now is forgiving her.
Korel Laloix: But it is hard.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes.
Korel Laloix: At least I have moved from active hate to sort of indifference.
Bruce Mowbray: I have finally been able to forgive . . . but it took a long time - even years after she had died.
Korel Laloix: So as sad as that sounds, it is in the right direction I think.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes.
Korel Laloix: I actually consider my inability to forgive her as my highest priority in my getting help and in my Faith practice.
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Qt.
Qt Core: hi Bruce, Korel
Bruce Mowbray: It is an honorable and worthy goal, Kori.
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: Have you seen the sunken cruise ship, Qt?
Qt Core: in person no, but it is pretty big news here
Bruce Mowbray: (I was recalling that your typist lived in Italy....)
Bruce Mowbray: I can imagine!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Cal!
Korel Laloix: Heya
Qt Core: and i am quite interested -  having been on a cruise two times with Costa and one of them was an almost sister ship of Concordia
Calvino Rabeni: Hiya heya
Bruce Mowbray: Oh my -- then you can really relate to what's happening there!!
Qt Core: hi Calvino
Korel Laloix: Would love to do something like that.
Qt Core: (and i think on my way and coming back i even passed in that area too
Calvino Rabeni: It would be a memorable end to a cruise, that's true :)
Bruce Mowbray: wow.
Bruce Mowbray: brb -- gotta let in the RL dog.
Korel Laloix: On a different note, a friend of mine is doing a research project on spiritual practice in SL.
Korel Laloix: Anyone interested in being interviewed?
Korel Laloix: I will take that as a no....smiles
Calvino Rabeni: well that sounds like an interesting project, Korel
Korel Laloix: Let me give you the card then...
Korel Laloix: If you do the interview you get some lindens as well.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: [back]
Calvino Rabeni: Those are good questions, Korel
Korel Laloix: Would you be interested in participating Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm....
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I do begin every day with an SL meditation....
Bruce Mowbray: but that's about it...
Korel Laloix: Just something to think about.
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you for the notecard, Kori.
Korel Laloix: Just IM her if you are interested.
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Korel Laloix: She is online right now.
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks.
Korel Laloix: No pressure though.
Korel Laloix: Just trying to help her project along as SL has been very influential to my spiritual being.
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that probably the most important "spiritual practice" I do in SL is on Monday afternoons for two hours.
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Mostly listening.
Korel Laloix: And that is important.
Bruce Mowbray: but also sharing honestly from the heart.
Korel Laloix: I think Brenna would like to hear that.
Bruce Mowbray: interspersed with meditations, contemplation with a group.
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: My "spiritual work" is largely "soul work" --
Korel Laloix: For me, I just love all the different traditions that I find here in my Faith.
Bruce Mowbray: I don't actually think of it as "spiritual" -- although it really is.
Korel Laloix: There are different ways to look at it for sure.
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Calvino Rabeni: I do know, the honest sharing has power for the sharer, and for the listener, and for the group
Calvino Rabeni: an event with different perspectives
Calvino Rabeni: like the whole is greater than the sum of the parts
Korel Laloix: There is great good from single person to single person talks.
Korel Laloix: But there are times when a group is very helpful as well I think.
Calvino Rabeni: I agree with you Bruce when you say you don't think of it as spiritual, but it is
Bruce Mowbray: I was given this wonderful talk this weekend. . . and it states so clearly how I feel about both spirituality and about therapy:
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.psychevisual.com/Video_by_David_Tacey_on_Spirituality_and_healing.html
Calvino Rabeni: and I have an ongoing curiosity about what this word could mean ... "spiritual"
Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to hear the results of the interviews, whether some meaning emerges from the interviews, or whether she provides some upon framing the study
Korel Laloix: I do think she intends to publish.
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: I guess the "problem" with the word "spirituality," for me, is that it has always connoted "ascending" -- out of this plane.
Bruce Mowbray: and I actually feel that my "best" spirituality is right here.
Bruce Mowbray: no ascension required!
Korel Laloix: I think I know what you are getting at.
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, as if I needed to be "saved" from my present existence.
Calvino Rabeni: I understand, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: For me (ONLY for me!) this cosmos is quite sufficient.
Calvino Rabeni: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: and has plenty of opportunities for growth and realization.
Calvino Rabeni: hehe :)
Calvino Rabeni: nods
Korel Laloix: 'cosmos' is an interesting word.
Korel Laloix: I still don't think I get the meaning.
Bruce Mowbray: I also recognize that I am but one "psychological type." and that others have different needs and various opportunities to meet them.
Korel Laloix: Different from the Universe.
Bruce Mowbray: Cosmos, for me, means the Natural Order.
Bruce Mowbray: excluding nothing.
Korel Laloix: OK, I think I know what you mean.
Korel Laloix: Broad terms.
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Luci!
Bruce Mowbray: I'm a dyed in the wool pantheist, of course!
Bruce Mowbray: How are you today, Luci?
Lucinda Lavender: Hi to all:)

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Hi Cinda :)
Lucinda Lavender: HI cal
Lucinda Lavender: I have found both a basket of eggs and a chicken coop:)
Qt Core: hi Luci
Lucinda Lavender: whispers Hi while taking the pause
Bruce Mowbray: Those are lovely eggs in your basket, Luci! Don't spill 'em!

Lucinda Lavender: OK:)
Lucinda Lavender: I hope the coop is easily assembled...
Calvino Rabeni: You're fortunate, almost every day is Easter where you live
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Lucinda Lavender: chickens finally came out of their coop today...
Bruce Mowbray thinks: Every egg a potential resurrection.
Lucinda Lavender: to scratch the newly available ground
Bruce Mowbray: How many do you have, Luci?
Lucinda Lavender: 5
Bruce Mowbray: oh my!
Bruce Mowbray: any roosters?
Lucinda Lavender: only 2 lay anymore
Bruce Mowbray: Do you feed them laying mash?
Lucinda Lavender: not at our house...but down the street there is one
Lucinda Lavender: yes:)
Bruce Mowbray: good.
Bruce Mowbray: By spring they will be laying again.
Korel Laloix: Grandma was thinking of getting some chickens but I talked her out of it.
Lucinda Lavender: and I keep their shells and crush them and feed them back to them
Lucinda Lavender: they are messy
Bruce Mowbray: Oh my!
Lucinda Lavender: why Korel
Korel Laloix: Because it meant I would be the one taking care of them...
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, free range chicken are cool, though -- and also free range children.
Lucinda Lavender: I have decided to throw all old leaves etc into the run...stir around and makes less smell there
Lucinda Lavender: they are fun...
Korel Laloix: Sounds a good idea.
Lucinda Lavender: yea really works
Lucinda Lavender: the raking out of the coop is not too much work
Bruce Mowbray: If they have a place to nest at night, they will come home . . . wagging their tails behind them.
Korel Laloix: We collect lawn trimmings and put them in our compost pile.
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Lucinda Lavender: nodding:)
Korel Laloix: The stuff at the bottom is great to till in.
Lucinda Lavender: yes!
Calvino Rabeni: That reminds me Cinda of a Brothers Grimm story where a cock and hen go traveling, stay in an inn, and make a hearty breakfast from the eggs laid during the night ... I wondered if it might be a dream metaphor
Lucinda Lavender: what else grows there Korel
Bruce Mowbray: makes wonderful fertilizer.
Lucinda Lavender: ?
Korel Laloix: This year we did not do to well with anything on the ground.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. Interesting, Cal.
Lucinda Lavender: nice metaphor cal:)
Korel Laloix: Terrapins and rabbits.
Korel Laloix: But our okra and beans and toms are great.
Lucinda Lavender: have thought that the eggs were much like dreams
Calvino Rabeni: Is that a turtle?
Korel Laloix: Lots of devils claw and corn.
Lucinda Lavender: nice Korel
Korel Laloix: Yes.
Korel Laloix: And the spice garden is nicely out of control.
Lucinda Lavender: very good...
Korel Laloix: It has been good.
Lucinda Lavender: the girl chickens lay an egg a day when young etc
Lucinda Lavender: they do need the rooster to make the egg
Lucinda Lavender: many people do not know that
Korel Laloix: If you want good seeds, I would like to suggest the seed bank I belong to.
Lucinda Lavender: just to fertilize...
Korel Laloix: http://www.nativeseeds.org/
Lucinda Lavender: ah...where is the bank Korel
Lucinda Lavender: I have heard of that I think
Bruce Mowbray recalls that a "pullet" is a 20-week-old chicken.
Lucinda Lavender: yes Bruce...teenagers
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: You've been on a farm a good amount of time, Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: and randy, too!
Bruce Mowbray: 40 years.\
Lucinda Lavender: wow...
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: Grew a few things, then?
Lucinda Lavender: what grows on the farm Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: a few.
Bruce Mowbray: This year, all corn.
Lucinda Lavender: my son would like to be a farmer...
Bruce Mowbray: 250 acres of corn.
Lucinda Lavender: wow...are you in charge of it?
Bruce Mowbray: I manage the land -- and keep the taxes paid.
Qt Core: I'm too urbanized ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: but my sister and brother are equal owners.
Lucinda Lavender: wow!
Korel Laloix: It is hard work.
Bruce Mowbray: Qt, I envy you in a way. . . but also realize I couldn't live in a city again.
Lucinda Lavender: interesting
Bruce Mowbray: having lived in several cities before coming to the farm.
Qt Core: but still where i was a kid in the suburb i remember a few chicken
Bruce Mowbray: I envy your access to the city's resources.
Lucinda Lavender: my renter has a naked neck chicken that likes to come in the house and lay an egg on her duvet...
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: lol
Korel Laloix: Does not sound like a good idea.
Korel Laloix: But then again, I only have chicken legs..
Lucinda Lavender: she has be photographing and posting on facebook:)
Lucinda Lavender: it seems to think it should live in the house
Lucinda Lavender: bonded in a special way I guess
Korel Laloix: Probably warmer than outside.
Lucinda Lavender: yes...
Bruce Mowbray: Birds are great at bonding.
Lucinda Lavender: Luci wonders why...
Bruce Mowbray recalls the guy who raised a bunch of turkeys -- who thought he was their mommy.
 
--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: http://www.amazon.com/Illumination-Flatwoods-Season-Wild-Turkey/dp/1599211971/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327185054&sr=1-1
Bruce Mowbray: Folks, I need to be moving on now.
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS to all of you for a fine session.
Qt Core: bye Bruce
Lucinda Lavender: good day to you Bruce...
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Bruce :)
Korel Laloix: Ciao... I am off as well.
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat.
Lucinda Lavender: I am kind of excited to set up my coop...
Lucinda Lavender: anyone want to help me with that?
Lucinda Lavender: bye Korel...good day
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Korel
Korel Laloix: Where you setting it up at?
Qt Core: bye Korel
Lucinda Lavender: at my space box
Lucinda Lavender: between a star and a stone
Korel Laloix: OH OK.. well, if I am on, give me an IM.
Lucinda Lavender: ok:)
Korel Laloix: Ciao all.
Lucinda Lavender: hoping there is not some reason it will not work
Calvino Rabeni: waves
Calvino Rabeni: I need to run too ... good luck with the coop Cinda
Lucinda Lavender: thanks...see you soon...
Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
Qt Core: bye all then
Lucinda Lavender: Qt..have a good day also.