2013.03.20 07:00 - Appearances and Suffering

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.


    Zen Arado: Hi cat :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: morning Zen :)
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: so so today, dealing with high anxiety not sure why so just pushing through
    Zen Arado: oh..must be hard for you
    Catrinamonblue Resident: today is, most days are not so bad
    Zen Arado: anxiety about the future?
    Zen Arado: I suppose that's what most anxiety is
    Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I suppose it is,
    Zen Arado: I tend to be anxiety prone
    Catrinamonblue Resident: for me I think it is about control
    Catrinamonblue Resident: mmm a lot of people are :)
    Zen Arado: control yes
    Zen Arado: if there is some big event coming up I tend to worry about it
    Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
    Zen Arado: even though it is a waste of time
    Zen Arado: should just plan as much as possible and then leave it
    Zen Arado: nothing ever happens the way you plan anyway
    Catrinamonblue Resident: hard to tell the body to stop reacting though :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: and yes plans never survive the first engagement :)
    Zen Arado: it's the mind wants to keep churning I find
    Zen Arado: brb
    Catrinamonblue Resident: k
    Zen Arado: bk
    Catrinamonblue Resident: wb :)
    Zen Arado: I have a community support worker here to see me
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: np
    Zen Arado: so I told her to sit and watch and chat
    Catrinamonblue Resident: ah ok :)
    Zen Arado: at the same time
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I have been realizing lately that I have lived with a rather high amount of anxiety most of my life.
    Zen Arado: do you ever just sit and explore the feeling?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: not really :)
    Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
    Catrinamonblue Resident: it's rather uncomfortable to begin with
    Bleu Oleander: hi Zen, Cat :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bleu
    Zen Arado: I'm investigating charnel house practice too
    Zen Arado: Hi Bleu
    Catrinamonblue Resident: charnel house?
    Bleu Oleander: hi Storm :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: hi storm
    Storm Nordwind: Good morning/afternoon friends :)
    Zen Arado: like Buddhists sit beside dead bodies and think about death
    Zen Arado: Hi Storm
    --BELL--
    szavanna Resident: 's current display-name is "Sunshine".
    Bleu Oleander: Sunji :)
    szavanna Resident: hi °͜°
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Sun
    Zen Arado: Hi Sunji :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Sun
    szavanna Resident: hi Cat, Stormy, Bleuji and Zenji °͜°
    Bleu Oleander: Sun, Zen, Cat are you working on your Art of Being artworks?
    szavanna Resident: yes mom ;o)
    Bleu Oleander: Storm just installed a great one!
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Catrinamonblue Resident: I wasn't able to get at it, too much other stuff going on
    Bleu Oleander: art mom
    Zen Arado: haven't even started
    szavanna Resident: yes I checked it out!
    Zen Arado: :(
    szavanna Resident: its fantastic °͜°
    Zen Arado: explaining SL to a support worker in RL
    Storm Nordwind: There is still plenty of time. Well. four days anyway
    Zen Arado: just came to see me
    Bleu Oleander: now Zen?
    Zen Arado: so I'm even slower than usual
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bleu Oleander waves hi to rl person
    Zen Arado: can't miss my guardian slot !
    szavanna Resident waves from africa :)
    szavanna Resident: hehe Zenji ❤
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :) Zen
    Storm Nordwind waves from the Colorado Rocky Mountains :)
    Zen Arado: Carly is her name
    Bleu Oleander: hi Carly
    szavanna Resident: hi Carly °͜°
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Hello Carly :) from snowy Canada
    szavanna Resident: I am the white zulu here °͜°
    Zen Arado: Carly says hello to everyone
    Bleu Oleander: colorful zulu
    szavanna Resident: waves :)
    szavanna Resident: hehe colorful is better °͜°
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bleu Oleander: hey are you all making progress on Storm's treasure hunt?
    Bleu Oleander: I need help with clue #8 if you are ...
    szavanna Resident: hmm was having a bit of a break for a few days
    Catrinamonblue Resident: haven't even started :)
    Zen Arado: haven't looked at that either :(
    Storm Nordwind: Looks like a total of 20 clues have been found so far. But no winners yet
    Zen Arado: pushed with time with graduate course atm
    Bleu Oleander: willing to pay big L$'s ... hehehe
    szavanna Resident: Adams gave me homework °͜°
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    szavanna Resident: lol
    Zen Arado: have three assignments close together
    Bleu Oleander: can you tell who found the clues Storm?
    Storm Nordwind: I could, but no I haven't recorded that
    Storm Nordwind: I only record the names of the winners
    Bleu Oleander: none so far :)
    lohrahlahnah Resident: 's current display-name is "Lorah".
    Storm Nordwind: Bleu is going on one of my wild goose chases ;)
    szavanna Resident: hey Lorah welcome °͜°
    szavanna Resident: take your time to rez
    Bleu Oleander: getting dizzy!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Lorah
    szavanna Resident: you always make this hunt so exciting to do hmm I must do it °͜°
    Zen Arado: Hi Lorah
    Zen Arado: have you been here before Lorah?
    Bleu Oleander: then you could help me Sunji
    szavanna Resident: Lorah is my friend I thought I would show her pab
    Bleu Oleander: welcome Lorah
    lohrahlahnah Resident: hi everybody :)
    szavanna Resident: I will explain the basics to her in IM
    szavanna Resident: °͜°
    lohrahlahnah Resident: thanks for welcoming me
    Zen Arado: so she is happy that converstaion is recorded and put on Wiki?
    szavanna Resident: I haven't told her yet ;o)
    szavanna Resident: ok I told her °͜°
    szavanna Resident: giggles
    Xirana Oximoxi: 's current display-name is "Xirana".
    Zen Arado: but she needs to say?
    lohrahlahnah Resident: it's my first time
    Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri :)
    szavanna Resident: she will listen mostly
    Zen Arado: are you ok with that Lorah?
    Zen Arado: Hi Xiri:)
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone! :-)
    szavanna Resident: since its her first time
    szavanna Resident: Xirji °͜°
    lohrahlahnah Resident: yes, I'm ok with it
    Zen Arado: ah great !
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Xiri
    lohrahlahnah Resident: hi xirana
    Xirana Oximoxi: hi Lorah!
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Zen Arado: what's the topic?
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Zen Arado: so someone will spell it out for me
    Zen Arado: :)
    Storm Nordwind: APAAPB
    szavanna Resident: sigh
    --BELL--
    Xirana Oximoxi: Appreciate the presence of apparence as a presentation of/by Being" (that's what I read on the board :-)
    szavanna Resident: °͜° ty Xiri
    Xirana Oximoxi: hehe ..you're welcome:)
    Xirana Oximoxi: long title for the topic
    Bleu Oleander: what is meant by "of/by" Being? ... starting at the end :)
    Zen Arado: it has never made sense to me
    szavanna Resident: giggles
    Zen Arado: my support worker doesn't get it either ;)
    Xirana Oximoxi: is it related to the way we chose our avatars to appear?
    Zen Arado: she has just gone
    Zen Arado: think it's deeper than that
    Zen Arado: seeing that everything is just appearance?
    Xirana Oximoxi: as a representaion of ourselves
    Zen Arado: just phantome beings
    Bleu Oleander: "of" seems more objective ... "by" seems intentional
    Xirana Oximoxi: our being
    Zen Arado: maybe representation is all we are
    Catrinamonblue Resident: being appreciative of our presence and appearance by Being?
    Zen Arado: a small part of nature expressing itself through a human form?
    Zen Arado: why must we appreciate it?
    szavanna Resident: yes thats how I think too
    Zen Arado: not saying we shouldn't
    Zen Arado: everything is appreciated
    szavanna Resident: because we are cool
    Zen Arado: whatever appreciate means
    szavanna Resident: °͜°
    Zen Arado: heh yes
    szavanna Resident: see °͜°
    Storm Nordwind: Just to remind you... a blast from the past... the first time that the phrase was heard in PaB was in April 2008 http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2008/04/2008.04.08_07%3a00_-_Appearance and I have a pic from later that year http://i.imgur.com/eyvPa6l.jpg
    Zen Arado: Hi Druth :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Druth :)
    druth Vlodovic: hi guys :)
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Bleu Oleander: hiya Druth
    druth Vlodovic: big crowd
    Xirana Oximoxi: hello druth
    Zen Arado: appreciate that Bleu
    druth Vlodovic: what's the topic?
    szavanna Resident: hi Druthy °͜°
    Zen Arado: means being thankful?
    szavanna Resident: The Hall of Appearance
    Xirana Oximoxi: thanks yoy Storm :) does the Hall of appearence still exist?
    szavanna Resident: °͜° can we see it still?
    Xirana Oximoxi: :) Sunji:)
    szavanna Resident: Xirji °͜°
    Storm Nordwind: No. It's in my inventory now :)
    Zen Arado: APAAPB
    Xirana Oximoxi: haha
    szavanna Resident: nooo it must reappear
    lohrahlahnah Resident: my av is beautiful because I express in it the beauty I feel inside me and that rules my behaviour and feelings
    druth Vlodovic: rez it!
    Zen Arado: (had to scroll up)
    druth Vlodovic: or is it complicated :/
    Storm Nordwind has forgotten how
    Zen Arado: nice Laura
    Zen Arado: wonder if I am beautiful inside
    Zen Arado: some bad bits there too
    druth Vlodovic: Creating the Appearance of Being
    szavanna Resident: so appearance is determined by something mysterious within
    lohrahlahnah Resident: one expresses hi's beauty in different ways.
    szavanna Resident: smiles at Zenji's words
    Zen Arado: maybe appearance is all there is
    Zen Arado: why split it in two?
    lohrahlahnah Resident: no
    Bleu Oleander: "all there is" pretty amazing though
    Zen Arado: oh yes
    druth Vlodovic: everything is beautiful in some way, even some things in art galleries are attractive in dim lighting, so you're a shoe in Zen :)
    Bleu Oleander: hahaha
    lohrahlahnah Resident: you communicate to people. there is beauty in it
    szavanna Resident: °͜°
    Zen Arado: beauty is only a matter of opinion maybe
    Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
    Zen Arado: feel that more and more in art
    Zen Arado: the current craze
    druth Vlodovic: so changing your opinion changes beauty?
    Storm Nordwind: Would beauty even exist without human consciousness?
    Zen Arado: the emperor's new clothes
    Zen Arado: probably not
    Zen Arado: it's a judgement
    Bleu Oleander: we had a great talk last night ... speaking of beauty
    Bleu Oleander: http://www.asu.edu/clas/hst/www/jwst...t13hstjwst.pdf
    druth Vlodovic: lol, I'm trying to change my opinion to see beauty where before i have only known it to exist
    Zen Arado: oh?
    Bleu Oleander: for later :)
    druth Vlodovic: no luck yet, but we progress
    Zen Arado: aesthetics
    Bleu Oleander: about the James Webb telescope
    --BELL--
    Bleu Oleander: some amazing photos
    szavanna Resident: saves PDF
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes...me too:)
    Xirana Oximoxi: in Plato's book..The Fest...each participant explais a different way to understand beauty...
    druth Vlodovic: Sharing the Beauty of Silence
    Zen Arado: go on Xiri?
    Zen Arado: my av won't stop typing today
    Xirana Oximoxi: so... the different way to see it is not new....
    Zen Arado: the ancient Greeks thought of everthing
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes.... and in my view...the fact the it was writen as a dialog was a way to show that the concepts are opne...not only one answer
    Xirana Oximoxi: open
    Zen Arado: yes...Socratic dialogue
    Zen Arado: but Plato believed there was a realm of forms?
    Zen Arado: that a perfect version of things in life existed there
    Bleu Oleander: might have been a little off there
    Zen Arado: so all we see are imperfect reflections
    Storm Nordwind: Did he believe it, or just postulate it?
    Zen Arado: dimly remember this
    Xirana Oximoxi: well...yes...that's it:)..
    Xirana Oximoxi: I think he postulated
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Zen Arado: would have to look it up again
    Xirana Oximoxi: and at the same time postulated it to the reader
    Zen Arado: so he didn't like art because that was a copy of a copy
    druth Vlodovic: people have to think many weird and wrong things to think anything that is true
    Zen Arado: does that thought linger in Western consciousness?
    Zen Arado: some idea of perfection?
    Zen Arado: I think it does
    druth Vlodovic: I'm afraid it does, maybe this is why we have such awful stuff in art galleries, a reaction against the concept
    druth Vlodovic: a better conjecture than my standard :)
    Zen Arado: or we look for perfection in life?
    Zen Arado: don't accept it as is?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: but what is perfection?
    druth Vlodovic: maybe it is better to look at life and see perfection
    druth Vlodovic: or maybe just see "is"
    Bleu Oleander: I think it's human nature to have some idea of something more, better
    druth Vlodovic: and appreciate it
    Catrinamonblue Resident: whose definition are we going by?
    Zen Arado: but don't we aim at perfection?
    druth Vlodovic: is a garden better or worse than a wild field?
    Zen Arado: good question
    druth Vlodovic: is one more perfect than the other?
    Bleu Oleander: false distinction perhaps?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: like Druth's just see "is" :)
    Zen Arado: well why not be satisfied with how we are and not bother trying to improve?
    Bleu Oleander: how are we?
    Xirana Oximoxi: there are also modess and preferences about it....
    Zen Arado: imperfect ;)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: improvement does not imply perfection as far as I can tell
    Bleu Oleander: by what standard?
    druth Vlodovic: are we better after we've improved?
    Zen Arado: heh
    Catrinamonblue Resident: to me it's just growth
    Zen Arado: but perfection is the goal?
    Catrinamonblue Resident: we grow and change and learn every day
    Bleu Oleander: "new and improved"
    druth Vlodovic: I see people who are greatly educated and studied in all sorts of thing
    szavanna Resident: we are perfect an any given time
    szavanna Resident: I think
    Catrinamonblue Resident: why do we need a goal?
    druth Vlodovic: and I envy them their energy and drive
    szavanna Resident: improvement is just for fun :)
    druth Vlodovic: but in the end they act remarkably human
    Zen Arado: fun is a goal too?
    Bleu Oleander: fun happens
    szavanna Resident: no life is fun
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)) yes Zen :)
    szavanna Resident: automatically
    Zen Arado: must try to have fun
    szavanna Resident: hehe yes
    szavanna Resident: bit like shit lol
    szavanna Resident: ;p
    Bleu Oleander: :P
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    druth Vlodovic: shit happens,and roses grow from it :)
    szavanna Resident: see °͜°
    druth Vlodovic: then a ow eats the roses and we get more shit! yayyyy!
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)))
    szavanna Resident: loll
    Zen Arado: hmans aren't aimless creature though
    Storm Nordwind: beauty dies and maggots grow in it too
    Zen Arado: we are goal making and seeking
    druth Vlodovic: and bluebottle flies grow from maggots
    Zen Arado: aren't we?
    Bleu Oleander: then starts all over again
    druth Vlodovic: and we dye bottles from them
    szavanna Resident: ops sorry for bringing up such a smelly topic ;p
    Bleu Oleander: then we come to PaB to talk about it :)
    druth Vlodovic: and grow more roses from what the maggots leave behind
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    druth Vlodovic: to smell our shit :)
    szavanna Resident: hehe
    Zen Arado: reminds me of poem I read on Sunday
    Bleu Oleander: smell-o-vision
    szavanna Resident: arraches smell hud
    szavanna Resident: attaches
    szavanna Resident: °͜°
    Bleu Oleander: that's coming I read
    Zen Arado: not sure I want that
    szavanna Resident: ;D
    --BELL--
    Zen Arado: All year the flax-dam festered in the heart Of the townland; green and heavy headed Flax had rotted there, weighted down by huge sods. Daily it sweltered in the punishing sun. Bubbles gargled delicately, bluebottles Wove a strong gauze of sound around the smell. There were dragon-flies, spotted butterflies, But best of all was the warm thick slobber Of frogspawn that grew like clotted water In the shade of the banks. Here, every spring I would fill jampotfuls of the jellied Specks to range on window-sills at home, On shelves at school, and wait and watch until The fattening dots burst into nimble- Swimming tadpoles. Miss Walls would tell us how The daddy frog was called a bullfrog
    Zen Arado: And how he croaked and how the mammy frog Laid hundreds of little eggs and this was Frogspawn. You could tell the weather by frogs too For they were yellow in the sun and brown In rain. Then one hot day when fields were rank With cowdung in the grass the angry frogs Invaded the flax-dam; I ducked through hedges To a coarse croaking that I had not heard Before. The air was thick with a bass chorus. Right down the dam gross-bellied frogs were cocked On sods; their loose necks pulsed like sails. Some hopped: The slap and plop were obscene threats. Some sat Poised like mud grenades, their blunt heads farting. I sickened, turned, and ran. The great slime kings Were gathered there for vengeance and I knew That if I dipped my hand the spawn would clutch it. Seamus Heaney
    druth Vlodovic: Smelling the Appreciation of Sharing
    Xirana Oximoxi: for later too :) ...diffucult for me :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Zen Arado: poetic imagery difficult in another language
    Bleu Oleander: so is all this a presentation by or of Being?
    Xirana Oximoxi: yes...must read very slowly and look for some words and expressions
    Zen Arado: but being is all one?
    Zen Arado: presenting itslef
    Zen Arado: in bad typing
    szavanna Resident: ;o)
    Xirana Oximoxi: :)
    Bleu Oleander: so Being is intentional?
    Zen Arado: no but we can read it like that
    Bleu Oleander: and presenting to itself ... so for it's self?
    Zen Arado: it just is itself
    Storm Nordwind: Who knows?
    szavanna Resident: giggles
    Bleu Oleander: so very self centered?
    Zen Arado: and we are part of that presentation
    Storm Nordwind: It is the poisoned arrow
    Bleu Oleander: poisoned?
    Zen Arado: we step out of it and try to analyse
    Zen Arado: don't qwe?
    Zen Arado: we
    Bleu Oleander: we can't step out
    Zen Arado: no, but we try
    Bleu Oleander: that's the problem
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bleu Oleander: can't get there from here
    Zen Arado: or we can do it temporarily?
    druth Vlodovic: making being intentional,is that a good thing,or negative?
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect both in degrees,
    Storm Nordwind: Bleu: The poisoned arrow of the story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_arrow
    Zen Arado: who knows?
    druth Vlodovic: another gift of the ancient Greeks who took time to think "all things in moderation"
    Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
    Zen Arado: eudaemonia
    Zen Arado: virtue ethics
    Bleu Oleander: ty STorm
    Zen Arado: they were wrong about a lot of things too
    druth Vlodovic: :)
    Bleu Oleander: as we probably are
    Zen Arado: oh yes
    Zen Arado: if there is any 'right'
    Xirana Oximoxi: there were different point of view between them too
    druth Vlodovic: you have to be willing to be wrong many times if you wish to be very right a few times
    Zen Arado: how easily I fall inti polarities
    druth Vlodovic: courage
    szavanna Resident: I love the story of the arrow
    Zen Arado: I talk myself around in corcles
    Zen Arado: circles
    Zen Arado: maybe that's all there is
    Catrinamonblue Resident: gtg great conversation guys thank you :)
    Storm Nordwind: Bye for now!
    Zen Arado: ty Cat
    szavanna Resident:
    szavanna Resident: take care Cat ♥
    Zen Arado: byee
    szavanna Resident: I think its better have them together
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Cat:)
    szavanna Resident: °͜°
    Bleu Oleander is considering the 14 unanswerable questions ...
    szavanna Resident: 14?
    szavanna Resident: referring to the hunt? ;p
    Bleu Oleander: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourte...able_questions
    szavanna Resident: ah hehe
    Storm Nordwind: First remove suffering. Then answer these questions. :)
    Bleu Oleander: can't remove suffering though
    Zen Arado: it's part of life
    Bleu Oleander: and we are making some progress on the 14 questions
    szavanna Resident: remove as much as possible
    Zen Arado: can learn not to add to it though
    Xirana Oximoxi: well....I must go now...if I stay this Pab session will take at least until tomorrow to read all:)) thanks a lot for the conversation and the links and the poem and and and ... :-)
    Zen Arado: yeh
    Xirana Oximoxi: take care all! :-)
    szavanna Resident: see you soon Xiri °͜°
    Bleu Oleander: bye Xiri
    Zen Arado: byee Xiri
    Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye :)
    Storm Nordwind: Sure you can remove suffering. Doesn't mean you remove all pain.
    szavanna Resident: yes that makes lots of sense Zenji - not to add to it
    Zen Arado: yeh depends what you mean by suffering
    Bleu Oleander: I think we can work on suffering and the 14 questions
    szavanna Resident: smiles at Bleuji
    Bleu Oleander: isn't pain suffering?
    --BELL--
    Bleu Oleander: physical and mental suffering?
    Zen Arado: pain + resistance = suffering
    Storm Nordwind: Not necessarily. I experience pain, but I do not suffer.
    szavanna Resident: ponders
    szavanna Resident: can you give an example Stormy
    Bleu Oleander: so you learn to accept physical pain and have no mental suffering?
    szavanna Resident: what about mental pain
    Storm Nordwind: Or emotional
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    szavanna Resident: ( sorry bell °͜°
    Bleu Oleander: right
    Storm Nordwind: The bell has learned to be tolerant! ;)
    szavanna Resident: can one have all these and not suffer °͜°
    Zen Arado: stay with the sensation and don't add mentally to it
    Bleu Oleander: so accepting it all eliminates suffering?
    szavanna Resident: what about emotional pain?
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Zen Arado: mental machinations like 'this shouldn't be happening to me,. 'this is awful' magnify pain
    szavanna Resident: can we separate it like with physical pain?
    Storm Nordwind: It is possible, I have found, yes
    Bleu Oleander: for some, maybe not possible though
    Zen Arado: takes practice
    szavanna Resident: I do notice when I am in the process of feeling sorry for myself °͜°
    Storm Nordwind: I would never say not possible. It is a learned activity for sure
    Bleu Oleander: a luxury to practice
    szavanna Resident: I wish there was a school for this
    szavanna Resident: hmm :)
    Storm Nordwind: Can freedom from suffering be seen as a luxury?
    Bleu Oleander: a luxury to even go to school for some
    lohrahlahnah Resident: may be suffering the anguish of denial?
    szavanna Resident: yes Lorah it can be hmm
    Bleu Oleander: not the freedom from suffering ... the practice of trying to eliminate suffering is a luxury
    Storm Nordwind: We can make it so, or we can make it a necessity. It depends what our society sees clearly as its priorities.
    szavanna Resident: doesn't one learn about this anyway - during a lifetime?
    Zen Arado: some never learn
    Zen Arado: it isn't that difficult either
    szavanna Resident: we live the same life ...
    szavanna Resident: in a way
    Bleu Oleander: some are in too much pain and suffering to learn
    Storm Nordwind: It seems to me to be a compassionate thing to provide the possibilities for learning to those that might want it
    Zen Arado: just sit with the emotions, feelings themselves and not the thoughts
    szavanna Resident: I know Bleuji
    Zen Arado: yeh maybe Bleu
    Zen Arado: it's like people have to where they can be receptive
    szavanna Resident: I just think ...that ultimately we are all the same ...
    Zen Arado: not that the teaching is difficult to practice
    Zen Arado: same but different manifgestations
    Storm Nordwind: Nice word!
    szavanna Resident: I think it depends on how open and free one can be from their religion/culture
    Zen Arado: wish I had known about how to practice with emotins when I was 13
    Zen Arado: but I wasn't ready to accept that then
    Bleu Oleander: one's way of dealing with suffering might not resonate with someone else's though
    Zen Arado: that too Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: we all think "our" way is the best way
    Zen Arado: I don't
    Bleu Oleander: want to sell our way to others
    szavanna Resident: my way or the highway °͜°
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Bleu Oleander: there are probably many ways
    Zen Arado: I think we have different teachings that resonate with us
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Storm Nordwind: Yes Bleu. And so teachers have provided many ways, out of their compassion no doubt
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Zen Arado: but that's all we can give to others as well
    szavanna Resident: Bleu is a great teacher :)
    Zen Arado: the way we see it
    Bleu Oleander: Sunji :)
    Zen Arado: and what has helped us
    szavanna Resident: :)
    Bleu Oleander: I see no way of moving beyond being a student :)
    lohrahlahnah Resident: I tend to listen to reason, when it's there. My way is not necessarily the best way. I observe experience before decisions.
    Zen Arado: heh lifelong learning
    Bleu Oleander: the more I know the more I realize I don't know
    Zen Arado: yep
    Bleu Oleander: rabbit hole
    Zen Arado: if I had a brain I'd be dangerous
    Bleu Oleander: perhaps that's why many avoid it
    Storm Nordwind: The more I know, the more I realize how much I don't need to know.
    Bleu Oleander: knowing is great though
    szavanna Resident: Yes Lorah I think most people try to be reasonable
    Storm Nordwind: It can be a distraction
    Bleu Oleander: not for me
    Bleu Oleander: curiosity is fun
    szavanna Resident: :)
    Zen Arado: knowing stops openness and further learning
    Bleu Oleander: takes me places I love to go
    szavanna Resident: not knowing is fun :)
    Storm Nordwind: And curiosity can be a distraction too. I'm good at it!
    Zen Arado: as in 'beginner's mind'
    Bleu Oleander: curiosity gives me happiness
    Storm Nordwind: Reliably so?
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Zen Arado: it killed the cat
    Zen Arado: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Then teach others to be that way :)
    Bleu Oleander: sorry for the cat
    Bleu Oleander: as I said ... I'm not a teacher I'm a student
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Zen Arado: my parents used to say that
    szavanna Resident: Bleuji is a great student ..but then who am I hehe
    --BELL--
    Bleu Oleander: the universe teaches and inspires me
    szavanna Resident: a student's student
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Storm Nordwind: I sympathize Bleu. But my teacher will not allow me to rest there, lest my perfect happiness dies with me! ;)
    Bleu Oleander: I can't control others happiness though
    Bleu Oleander: and my happiness is not perfect
    szavanna Resident: Lorah °͜°
    Bleu Oleander: it just works for me
    Bleu Oleander: everyone has to find their own way
    Zen Arado: but we aren't islands unto ourselves
    Bleu Oleander: right
    Zen Arado: we are being influenced and influencing all the time
    Bleu Oleander: but we are all on our own journey on some level
    Bleu Oleander: with others
    Storm Nordwind: No. It is possible to offer guidance. Others may not want to be quided. Or it may not be the way for them. But it seems cruel to me to insist everyone has to find their own way.
    Zen Arado: unless we are hermits
    szavanna Resident: yes Stormy - I sooo wanted to guide people in my opencafe
    Bleu Oleander: hmmm yes perhaps offer personal insights
    szavanna Resident: I told them all about open source software ;p
    Zen Arado: we copy other's behaviour too not just what they say
    Bleu Oleander: but can't force others to go my way
    szavanna Resident: but they took the tshirt and left
    szavanna Resident: °͜°
    Storm Nordwind chuckles with Sun
    szavanna Resident: ;p
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    szavanna Resident: then I realised after many years
    Bleu Oleander: lead a horse to water ... can't make him drink?
    szavanna Resident: that I can't guide unless they want to be guided
    szavanna Resident: yes Bleuji °͜°
    Storm Nordwind: some horses may prefer whisky ;)
    szavanna Resident: hehehe
    Zen Arado: people sometimes accept what you say but you don't know it
    Bleu Oleander: or chocolate
    Storm Nordwind: true Zen
    Zen Arado: they tell you something you told them a year ago
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Zen Arado: they think they thought it up themselves
    Zen Arado: but nothing new under the sun
    Storm Nordwind: And I've no attachment to seeing so-called effects or results in others.
    Zen Arado: so many cliches I know ;)
    szavanna Resident: under the sun?
    Bleu Oleander: that's a good thing Zen
    Zen Arado: it's a saying from Ecclesiastes Sun
    Zen Arado: oh I see what you mean
    szavanna Resident: ;p
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: 'all is vanity'
    Storm Nordwind nods to druth
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Zen Arado: well I would like to be able to claim that
    Zen Arado: but my ego still likes credit
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bleu Oleander: you, Zen :)
    Zen Arado: but at least I see it
    Storm Nordwind: Will you have time to create something that I can credit in Art as Being? ;)
    Bleu Oleander: :))
    Zen Arado: not sure
    Bleu Oleander: nice segue
    Zen Arado: only have a vague idea
    Bleu Oleander: like a hammer hehe
    Zen Arado: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Storm "Master of Subtlety" Nordwind
    Zen Arado: for hammering ideas home
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    szavanna Resident: ;o)
    Bleu Oleander: creator of difficult clues
    Zen Arado: against hard unyeilding brains
    Bleu Oleander: especially #8
    Bleu Oleander: ha!
    Zen Arado: I better go get dinner
    Bleu Oleander: take care Zen
    szavanna Resident: ( changing topic )
    Zen Arado: byee all ty for coming
    szavanna Resident: where could I find this flower
    szavanna Resident: in the middle of the fountain
    szavanna Resident: hugs Zenji °͜°
    Storm Nordwind: Fael created it, IIRC, though Wol may have a copy.
    szavanna Resident: ok I will ask her
    szavanna Resident: Fael?
    Bleu Oleander: does that mean you will do an art piece Sunji?
    Storm Nordwind: Fael Illya. Someone who did a lot of work here once in PaB
    szavanna Resident: oh ok
    szavanna Resident: i love it its very pretty :)
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    szavanna Resident: I will have to go because Bleuji told me to work on my build
    Bleu Oleander: I must get to work ... will be back later though to work on #8 :)
    Storm Nordwind: yes yes!
    szavanna Resident: ;p
    Bleu Oleander: yes!
    Bleu Oleander: :P
    szavanna Resident: byebyee all - ty Lorah for coming °͜°
    szavanna Resident: hope you enjoyed :)
    szavanna Resident: hehe
    Bleu Oleander: may have to resort to that hehe
    Bleu Oleander: bye for now ... take care all
    szavanna Resident: see you all soon
    szavanna Resident: today is class :)
    Bleu Oleander: nice to meet you Lorah
    szavanna Resident: noonslt
    Bleu Oleander: oh yes at noon
    szavanna Resident: waves °͜°
    szavanna Resident: IM me anytime for help
    Bleu Oleander: will c u then Sunji
    --BELL--
    Bleu Oleander: haha
    Bleu Oleander: hi and bye Aph

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