2013.05.12 07:00 - the gloved hand of play

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: hiya Louji :)
Louis Onyett: Hi!
Bleu Oleander: how r u?
Louis Onyett: Hmmm, a little chilly. Spring is slow this year
Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Bleu Oleander: hey Eliza :)
--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: so the beach scene will warm u up a bit
Eliza Madrigal: Hello :) Are we on Mughungwa?
Bleu Oleander: yes hehe
Eliza Madrigal smiles, nice
Louis Onyett: Yes, very nice to see a beach
Bleu Oleander: has a warming effect
Louis Onyett: In the 30s this AM, will be int he 90s ?Tuesday
Bleu Oleander: quite a range
Louis Onyett: Must be this landscape impacting rl
Louis Onyett: :D
Bleu Oleander: lol
Santoshima Resident: 's current display-name is "San".
Bleu Oleander: any topics of interest today?
Bleu Oleander: reciprocity of imaginative play is the weeks suggestion
Bleu Oleander: but we could go anywhere
Bleu Oleander: hi San
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San
Santoshima Resident: hi :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm interested in the topic, not sure where to grasp the thread from though :)
Bleu Oleander: yes I have the same feeling
Santoshima Resident: make something up
Louis Onyett: Hi San, not sure I follow today's topic yet.
Louis Onyett: ANy ideas?
Bleu Oleander: topic is open atm
Bleu Oleander: hi Adams :)
Louis Onyett: Well, not a topic, but strange fact.
Santoshima Resident: Reciprocity?
Xirana Oximoxi: 's current display-name is "Xirana".
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri :)
Louis Onyett: Hi Adam, Xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone! :-)
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose imagination is inherently reciprocal
Eliza Madrigal: seeds of ideas being gathered and planted knowingly and unknowingly
Adams Rubble final.y gets through the wall
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose that's my first image of the topic - gardening and cultivation, also dreams
Adams Rubble: hello everyone :)
Santoshima Resident: hello Adams, Xirana
Eliza Madrigal: :) and no worse the wear for the trouble of the crossing Adams
Adams Rubble: the wall might be better being phantom
Santoshima Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal is feeling warm on the beach with this hat and plunders inventory for lighter hair ^.^
Bleu Oleander: the wall is phantom
Adams Rubble: hmm, maybe I need to be phantom :)
Santoshima Resident: haha
Bleu Oleander: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: what is the distinction between play and imaginative play?
Bleu Oleander: hiya Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Greetings :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Aga :-)
Adams Rubble: Hello Agatha :)
Bleu Oleander: lovely hat :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hm, i seem to be on a desert island
Adams Rubble: imaginative play needs imagination?
Agatha Macbeth: TY :)
Bleu Oleander: isn't play by it's very nature imaginative?
Xirana Oximoxi: play just following rules...or play without following them...but anyway the word 'play' may be imaginative
Bleu Oleander: so you could say reciprocity of play?
Santoshima Resident: have ben reading a worthwhile book by Wade Davies, titled The Wayfinders: Why Ancient Wisdom Matters in the Modern World ... the role of Reciprocity in various cultures seems mightily significant
Santoshima Resident: in the growth and continuence
Santoshima Resident: of language of shared ways of being
Santoshima Resident: and of
Santoshima Resident: (insert tht after "language" mz editor. thank you!)
Bleu Oleander: ancient wisdom matters indeed ... how we integrate it into our lives today matters also
Eliza Madrigal: what an interesting title, nods
Santoshima Resident: interesting book
Santoshima Resident: presented in 2009 as Massey lectures
Xirana Oximoxi: I would say 're-creation' more than 'reciprocity' related to Ancient Wisdom...but I agree about reciprocity between cultures actually
--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: reciprocity seems a basic step towards being together in a culture/society
Eliza Madrigal: the leap from playing next to one another to offering and acceptance
Eliza Madrigal: and learning from another's play
Eliza Madrigal: (sandcastle/box image appropriate for the setting ^.^)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: (daughter just said Happy Mothers Day and that she was going to get me a cat (she wants a cat) :P
Louis Onyett: Backing up, what do we think of as play once adults?
Bleu Oleander: lol
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Santoshima Resident: awww
Xirana Oximoxi: hehe :))
Louis Onyett: meow. Kittens are really cute.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh is it mothers' day there?
Santoshima Resident: happy mother's day to all the mothers here
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Eliza Madrigal: tyvm *
Louis Onyett: Mom's earn it. :D
Agatha Macbeth: True
Xirana Oximoxi: it's important to 'play' too as adults ...
Louis Onyett: Daughter sounds like a future MBA, dealing in win/win
Louis Onyett: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: so agree Xiri
Eliza Madrigal: when kids are easy it is easy to enter their play, as a mom, but when they get older have to find that for oneself without the excuse of doing it for and with them :)
Eliza Madrigal: little* = easy
Eliza Madrigal: play 'as' an adult
Louis Onyett: Yes. And, I think fathers have a tough time as daughters get older, but not as much with sons.
Louis Onyett: Is it the same the other way with moms and sons, I wonder.
Eliza Madrigal: it has been for me.. I don't see it but I know that by feedback from others :)
Louis Onyett: Good point about still entering their play regardless.
Louis Onyett: I never thought about it directly. We often don't think about the value of play.
Louis Onyett: unless in a group called PaB
Louis Onyett: lol
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Xirana Oximoxi: yes:)) here is a very remarcable topic:)
Bleu Oleander: so what actually do we mean by "play" and can play have dif meanings to dif peeps?
Adams Rubble: we may play more than we think :)
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
Bleu Oleander: hiya Zen
Louis Onyett: A great question. Does jogging equal play?
Adams Rubble: Hello Zen :)
Bleu Oleander: we're talking about play Zen
Louis Onyett: It is not really fun if you run hard. lol
Zen Arado: Hi all
Eliza Madrigal: does it have to do with the quality inside of action and response?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Zen! :-)
Santoshima Resident: hello Zen :)
Adams Rubble: work can be play
Bleu Oleander: so does play have to be fun?
Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Mr DJ :)
Bleu Oleander: I recall moments of play in my life when someone talks about play ... most likely dif than your moments of remembrance of play?
Eliza Madrigal: maybe matters when one takes the measure
Louis Onyett: I guess maybe play should help us feel useful or give us other positive feelings
Bleu Oleander: so the quality of our understanding of play depends on our past experiences?
Adams Rubble: being mindful of when we are playing
Zen Arado: wonders about play/fun distinction
Louis Onyett: Hey, we are playing right now. ;D
Adams Rubble: playing is a way of seeing
Adams Rubble: explori9ng
Adams Rubble: exploring
Zen Arado: fun = play we enjoyed?
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is not easy to deeply play with others.... needs a lot of trust and that can't really be done in a deliberate way... just magical conditions arising
Bleu Oleander: so what are the qualities that make experience "play"?
Eliza Madrigal: we can play with conditions though :)
--BELL--

Xirana Oximoxi: capacity of seing things from a different perspective than usual...
Bleu Oleander: enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose?
Zen Arado: Eliza hints that play is an important part of relationship?
Adams Rubble slips away to play at Sunday morning chores
Bleu Oleander: take care Adams
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Adams Rubble: bye all. nice to see you all :)
Agatha Macbeth: Slip well Adams
Zen Arado: playing TOGETHER
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Adams:) havwe a nice play :()
Santoshima Resident: good bye Adams, gtsy
Eliza Madrigal: you too Adams - very stylish today
Zen Arado: bye Adams
Eliza Madrigal: realize the picture is coming clearer me - that there is reciprocity and play may arise spontaneously from that
Bleu Oleander: can one play by one's self?
Eliza Madrigal: *for (where are my words going?!) lol
Agatha Macbeth: Of course!
Zen Arado: :)
Bleu Oleander: so reciprocity is a possible trigger for play?
Louis Onyett: I go back to many things like taking care of a garden, landscaping, running, all things that may be play
Eliza Madrigal: I think so.... the exchange of those seeds and gestures back and forth then perhaps in more dynamic ways
Bleu Oleander: what are the seeds of play?
Eliza Madrigal: can we give gestures to ourselves? :)
Louis Onyett: <<looking br="" for=""> Bleu Oleander: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: to be open mind, curious, explores...(some seeds)
Bleu Oleander: curiosity can feel like play
Xirana Oximoxi: explorer
Eliza Madrigal: nice... nodding
Louis Onyett: making play a priority in each day
Bleu Oleander: science is play sanctioned by society
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: paid for by tax payers
Bleu Oleander: lol
Zen Arado: or philosophy
Louis Onyett: Art as well
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: play lab
Zen Arado: (has nosebleed)
Zen Arado: hmm
Bleu Oleander: oh no
Louis Onyett: yikes
Bleu Oleander: hand Zen a tissue
Agatha Macbeth sticks her finger up Zen's nose
Bleu Oleander: lol
Zen Arado: don't get that often
Louis Onyett: quick thinking
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Eliza Madrigal: oh dear
Zen Arado: sucks ait through right nostril
Louis Onyett: that was playful, Agatha. :D
Zen Arado: getting better
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: air
Agatha Macbeth: Air today gone tomorrow
Zen Arado: refrained from rude comment
Louis Onyett: And there was reciprocity
Xirana Oximoxi: Lady Agatha today:) sooo sofisticated lady :)
Louis Onyett: Huh, I finally get the topic thanks to Ag's finger.
Bleu Oleander: the gloved hand of play
Agatha Macbeth: Gracias guapina <3
Xirana Oximoxi: de nada :-)
Zen Arado: rubber glive ?
Zen Arado: lol
Agatha Macbeth: PaB medical emergencies: chapter 1
Zen Arado: blood on my keyboard
Santoshima Resident: "helping hand" section
Zen Arado: sounds like a bluse song
Bleu Oleander: so a definition of play seems illusive ...
Santoshima Resident: life
Louis Onyett: That is the perfect mystery book title: "Blood on my Keyboard"
Santoshima Resident: language
Santoshima Resident: culture
Bleu Oleander: being
Zen Arado: :)
Bleu Oleander: :) Louji
Agatha Macbeth: Louji and Bleuji
Santoshima Resident: flirting
Bleu Oleander: life
Santoshima Resident: { *** pla ***}
Santoshima Resident: it's a flow thing
Santoshima Resident: y
Bleu Oleander: resiprocity
Santoshima Resident: yup
Eliza Madrigal: that was the word that came to mind earlier.... considering what is the 'quality' of play... flow
Zen Arado: play has connotations of frivolity and not serious though
Santoshima Resident: bad rap
Zen Arado: testing the water
Zen Arado: pretending
Bleu Oleander: so play vs serious?
Santoshima Resident: take me to the river drop me in the water
Zen Arado: simulation
Bleu Oleander: light vs heavy?
Bleu Oleander: simulation ... interesting
Bleu Oleander: way of learning?
Zen Arado: not trying very hard
Zen Arado: just playing at it
Bleu Oleander: can one try hard to play?
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: can play rough and seriously play, intensely play
Bleu Oleander: so working at play?
Zen Arado: just playing with you
Zen Arado: if in game one plays hard
Eliza Madrigal: there is an intimate space created between someone and their craft for instance
Zen Arado: with structure and rules
Bleu Oleander: play = game?
Xirana Oximoxi: welll...I think so...usually when playing sports it implies intensity of training
Zen Arado: game allows hard play
Bleu Oleander: ah so maybe training required for play?
Eliza Madrigal: can, nods
Zen Arado: serious play
Bleu Oleander: what are the tools of play?
Zen Arado: so not really play
Zen Arado: ?
Bleu Oleander: not so straight forward this "play" thing
Zen Arado: pro sport not play
Eliza Madrigal: there always seem to be parallel levels to these discussions
Santoshima Resident: imagination, context
Xirana Oximoxi: different sides and meanings of 'play'
Bleu Oleander: many ways to look at play
--BELL--</looking>

<looking br="" for="">
Zen Arado: I always find that definitions prove meaningless
Zen Arado: they fall apart
Zen Arado: it's all a mystery
Xirana Oximoxi: I agree Zen :)
Bleu Oleander: I disagree
Agatha Macbeth: Factor X
Bleu Oleander: we use definitions to help us understand
Xirana Oximoxi: they can help give an idea of a concept...but general
Bleu Oleander: it's when we get stuck with certain definitions that we get into trouble
Zen Arado: maybe it's an illusory or just useful understanding though
Zen Arado: words are just defined using other words
Bleu Oleander: understanding ... there's a topic lol
Zen Arado: as Ferdinand de Susure stated
Eliza Madrigal: maybe more useful to share moments of play we've witnessed in our lives...
Zen Arado: Saussure
Bleu Oleander: is that right Zen?
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Zen Arado: self related
Bleu Oleander: or are words defined by our experiences?
Zen Arado: forget the term
Zen Arado: language self-reflexive or something
Eliza Madrigal: I play all the time, yet times i life that I've "entered into play" with someone are very few - perhaps I add some sacredness, oddly
Bleu Oleander: recipe for play ...
Zen Arado: we don't know if we are using the word to describe the experience because all of our experiences are different
Eliza Madrigal: seems vulnerable, like ... willing foolishness and potential for embarrassment
Bleu Oleander: exactly Zen
Zen Arado: me being happy is different to others being happy
Bleu Oleander: hard to know whether my words reach you as intended or not
Eliza Madrigal: thus sharing sensibilities and stories rather than sure definitions may have more room
Zen Arado: just rough approximations
Bleu Oleander: narratives come closer I think
Zen Arado: but useful nonetheless
Xirana Oximoxi: must go now... have a nice Sunday all and see you soon! :-)
Eliza Madrigal waves Xiri :)) sys
Zen Arado: byee Xiri ;)
Santoshima Resident: so long Sir, gtsy
Bleu Oleander: bye Xiri
Bleu Oleander: take care
Santoshima Resident: Xir
Agatha Macbeth: Take care Xira *hug*
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps reciprocally, we build one another's capacities for play
Bleu Oleander: even stories though depend ultimately on the understanding of words
Eliza Madrigal: or knowing someone well enough to hear the way they use their words?
Zen Arado: joking aside it takes two to play i think
Eliza Madrigal thinks of people who study one poet their entire lives
Bleu Oleander: ah so can't play by yourself?
Zen Arado: or an interaction with rest of world
Santoshima Resident: please excuse me, enjoy the day everyone ~
Eliza Madrigal: ty for topic San :) will look into the book
Bleu Oleander: bye San
Zen Arado: other humans past or present
Agatha Macbeth: Bye San
Zen Arado: bye San
Santoshima Resident: great book, very worth reading
Bleu Oleander: can one self play with another self?
Eliza Madrigal: part of me thinks so and part of me doesn't :P
Zen Arado: but depends what you mean by self again
Bleu Oleander: like playing both parts of play :)
Zen Arado: familiar ground :)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Louis Onyett: Must go. Trying to convince myself to 'play' with lawnmower.
Bleu Oleander: lol
Eliza Madrigal: chore day :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Louis, play well
Eliza Madrigal: speak to it... that helps
Louis Onyett: Ty, and all of you.
Eliza Madrigal waves
Zen Arado: this uniques manifestation or wthe ocean we all manifest out of
Bleu Oleander: bye take care
Zen Arado: bye Louis
Bleu Oleander: hardcore players are left lol
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Zen Arado: I more and more identify with what I share with everyone and everything
Agatha Macbeth: Playing hardball perhaps
Eliza Madrigal is devoted to play
Zen Arado: in that sense we can't play alone
Bleu Oleander: play when you can and often hehe
Zen Arado: we are intercconnected to everyone and everything
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: unless we try to disconnect?
Zen Arado: can we?
Bleu Oleander: well ... and we have all those microbes with us too
Zen Arado: life is the ultimate game
Eliza Madrigal: yes :) when play, at least in the sense I wish to cultivate, shows up spontaneously, one does their best to clear the way
Zen Arado: we can't stop playing life
Bleu Oleander: what sense do you wish to cultivate re play?
Zen Arado: clear the way?
Eliza Madrigal: the sacredness mentioned earlier... close to spontaneity/flow, and yet with a taste of clarity and openness
Bleu Oleander: a specific "kind" of play?
Eliza Madrigal: I do feel that there are many ways to play and yet something that shows up on its own that can't be contrived
Bleu Oleander: how do you connect sacredness to play?
Eliza Madrigal: that way, suppose close to "awe"
Zen Arado: awe at a sports player?
Eliza Madrigal: maya is said to be the play of appearances I think... illusion or magic of the way things arise interdependently
Bleu Oleander: hard to know what everyone means when they say play ... not that one needs to define play, but it helps to be on the same page for understanding?
Zen Arado: doing some thing better than everyone else
Eliza Madrigal: and the recognition of that play, the appreciation, feels sacred to me I guess... an opening one can enter
Eliza Madrigal: getting out by getting further in
Zen Arado: something exceptional..is that sacredness?
Eliza Madrigal: out of oneself, perhaps (something like that) best I can do to convey
Eliza Madrigal: brb
Zen Arado: supernatural
Agatha Macbeth: Super
--BELL--</looking>

<looking br="" for="">
Bleu Oleander: is a shared language necessary for understanding? for example even what is meant by sacredness?
Eliza Madrigal: shared language is helpful but impossible :)
Zen Arado: perhaps broader than that...shared basis of understanding
Bleu Oleander: what does this mean "maya is said to be the play of appearances I think... illusion or magic of the way things arise interdependently" to someone who doesn't know what maya is?
Agatha Macbeth: The only Maya I know are the ones in Mexico :p
Bleu Oleander: so it matters the depth of knowledge or experience one has in order to communicate
Eliza Madrigal: well that's what it means... just a word
Bleu Oleander: but the word has some "baggage"
Eliza Madrigal: like "lila" too
Agatha Macbeth: Lila?
Zen Arado: you could worship the same religion with someone yet not speak same language
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: for one and not another... or for one the baggage may be a kind of richness and another an irritation
Zen Arado: shared humanity
Bleu Oleander: exactly Eliza
Zen Arado: someone from another galaxy couldn't play with us perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: so the room for accommodation would be a key condition for play... to set one another at ease and trust
Bleu Oleander: so how we approach words and concepts matter I think
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Bleu Oleander: yes and to not speak over the other in a sense
Bleu Oleander: respect each other's common points
Bleu Oleander: points where communication is possible
Eliza Madrigal: ever see a group or been part of a group ... in a kitchen... working on an event?
Zen Arado: but that is a human assumption that it is good to behave like that
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen
Bleu Oleander: well ... we are human
Eliza Madrigal: quite
Zen Arado: Zen isn't human
Bleu Oleander: too much sometimes lol
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: do think our 'intention' toward manners culture matters, here for instance
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: it is something I consistently hear that is diff about pab
Bleu Oleander: manners?
Bleu Oleander: respect for others? and their ideas?
Eliza Madrigal: our 'behavior like that'
Eliza Madrigal: mhm
Bleu Oleander: all points of view welcomed
Bleu Oleander: respected
Zen Arado: Americans have a whole set of cultural assumptions and behavioural mannerisms as all cultures do but they can differ from each other
Zen Arado: subtly sometimes
Bleu Oleander: what do you mean "Americans"?
Zen Arado: American culture
Bleu Oleander: is there one American culture?
Zen Arado: a collective understanding of what is right
Bleu Oleander: I don't even see that
Bleu Oleander: as one
Zen Arado: but you have a common basis
Bleu Oleander: don't see that either
Bleu Oleander: what would that be?
Zen Arado: we don't see our built in assumptons
Agatha Macbeth: I think people on the outside of any culture see it differently from those inside
Bleu Oleander: generalizing I think
Zen Arado: of what is the 'right' way to behave
Bleu Oleander: much more nuanced
Eliza Madrigal nods Agatha
Bleu Oleander: yes for sure
Zen Arado: our ideas of ethics have grown up with us as a way to survive best together while living in groups
Zen Arado: and become enshrined into laws
Bleu Oleander: there is a growing global ethic
Eliza Madrigal: think so?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: enlarging the group
Zen Arado: yes...as the world becomes more homogenized
Zen Arado: through global communication
Bleu Oleander: as the world becomes "smaller" easier to have empathy for others
Zen Arado: and we shudder at practices in other countries and they become aware of our horror
Bleu Oleander: that is the hope anyway
Zen Arado: or they shudder at us
Bleu Oleander: widening the circle of empathy and compassion
Agatha Macbeth: If it gets rid of barriers and removes bigotry I'm all for it
Bleu Oleander: its a slow process
Bleu Oleander: but see seeds of change growing
Zen Arado: bigotry lessens as we become more aware of others
Agatha Macbeth: Hopefully yes
Bleu Oleander: bring others into "our" circles
Zen Arado: ignorance breeds bigotry
Agatha Macbeth: True
Zen Arado: separateness
Zen Arado: so mythys can fester
Bleu Oleander: global awareness leads to more acceptance, tolerance perhaps?
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Zen Arado: I think so
--BELL--</looking>

<looking br="" for="">
Eliza Madrigal: yet also such stark divisions so close by
Agatha Macbeth: But as you say a slow process
Zen Arado: attitudes die slowly
Zen Arado: resistance to change
Bleu Oleander: relatively fast in the larger scope of evolution though
Zen Arado: oh yes
Bleu Oleander: well must get going ... lots of playing to do today :)
Zen Arado: me too
Bleu Oleander: thank you all for coming
Bleu Oleander: play well
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Bleu, Zen, Aggers :) Enjoy the Sunday
Agatha Macbeth: Bye folks
Zen Arado: dinnertime
Agatha Macbeth: Take care
Bleu Oleander: bye all take care
Zen Arado: waves
Agatha Macbeth: Aww the beach has gone :(
Eliza Madrigal: I may step in at the afternoon session today, since I don't have my usual meeting - we'll see
Bleu Oleander: yes back to reality :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Life as it is
Agatha Macbeth: Mwah
Bleu Oleander: life is a beach
Eliza Madrigal: loloolol
Bleu Oleander: lol
Eliza Madrigal: Hugs
Agatha Macbeth: Hmmm
Bleu Oleander: hugs
Agatha Macbeth: <3
Zen Arado: hugs
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Bleu Oleander: ♥ *•.¸♥¸.•* ♥
Agatha Macbeth: Byee</looking>