2013.05.19 19:00 - Meaning Without Language

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Cal
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm coming from Jane Austen country
Calvino Rabeni: From the manor bourne?
Aphrodite Macbain: not really - from the rectory
Aphrodite Macbain: How have you been?
Calvino Rabeni: church?
Aphrodite Macbain: gtins
Aphrodite Macbain: Anglican.C of R. Episcopalean
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Aphrodite Macbain: I went to a Whitsunday picnic
Calvino Rabeni: Memorized the lines that would be memorized then?
Aphrodite Macbain: what lines?
Calvino Rabeni: Don't know really, aren't there a variety of rituals with words that people know, in a church setting?
Aphrodite Macbain: this was a picnic not a church setting - itis/was likean easter picnic
Aphrodite Macbain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitsunday
Aphrodite Macbain: my family never celebrated it
Aphrodite Macbain: It was an excuse to dress up and socialize
Aphrodite Macbain: with sl folks who like to be from another century
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Korel
Korel Laloix: Heya.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya KOro
Aphrodite Macbain: Kori
Korel Laloix: I know of Whitsunday.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it is today, apparently
Korel Laloix: But never did anything on it, at least by that name.
Aphrodite Macbain: The Sunday of the feast of Whitsun or Pentecost in the Christian liturgical year, observed 7 weeks after Easter
Korel Laloix: Well, I do the orthodox callender, so not for a while yet for me.
Aphrodite Macbain: One of the Scottish quarter days, always falling on 15 May
Calvino Rabeni: There are no memorized word rituals in my modern life, but I feel like it would be interesting to experience having some
Aphrodite Macbain: it was when the "holy ghost came down and people spoke i tongues
Aphrodite Macbain: I drank tea and pancakes and made conversation
Korel Laloix: That is one thing I do like about the orthodox churches.. some of the rituals.
Korel Laloix: That sounds great to me.
Aphrodite Macbain: the Lord's ptrayer is a memorized word ritual isnt it?
Korel Laloix: I think so.
Calvino Rabeni: I don't understand the "tongues" attitudes yet

--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it would be .. even I know it but don't have need for it regularly
Aphrodite Macbain: Pentecost is a Christian holy day commemorating the descent of the Holy Ghost upon the disciples of Jesus Christ, according to the New Testament of the Bible. It is also known as Whitsunday, or Whit Sunday.
Aphrodite Macbain: According to Christian texts, the Holy Spirit, often symbolized by a dove, descended on the apostles who received the gift of tongues. Pentecost celebrates this event.
Aphrodite Macbain: I am not sure of the importance of the gift of tongues
Korel Laloix: Not one I am sure of either.
Korel Laloix: One of teh parts of the Bible I have not really hit yet.
Aphrodite Macbain: As recorded in the New Testament of the Bible, it was on the 50th day after Easter that the apostles were praying together and the Holy Spirit descended on them. They received the “gift of tongues” – the ability to speak in other languages – and immediately began to preach about Jesus Christ to Jewish people from all over the world who flocked to Jerusalem for the Feast of Shavuot
Aphrodite Macbain: so they were able to proselytize more easily
Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting that it was an issue
Korel Laloix: That whole language thing can be a problem you know.
Aphrodite Macbain: I came from a Whitsunday party Korel
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- and the translation
Calvino Rabeni: How so, Korel, a problem?
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Korel Laloix: If you don't speak someone's langauge and culture, you have a hard time communicating.
Korel Laloix: I think in this reference, it means more than just the language.
Aphrodite Macbain: It means they were better able to spread the gospel
Korel Laloix: Exactly... brb
Aphrodite Macbain: and the beginning of the Christian church
Calvino Rabeni: the gift of tongues is more than language .. well it is speaking without the language .. ? or somrthing that they can interpret and understand?
Aphrodite Macbain: I think it means they can speak in other languages
Aphrodite Macbain: of their region
Calvino Rabeni: Not an ecstatic kind of babbling ?
Aphrodite Macbain: no
Aphrodite Macbain: though I think that has been seen as a form of miracle when people do
Aphrodite Macbain: it happens today in some fundamentalist religions
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Lucinda Lavender: Hi all!
Aphrodite Macbain: we are speaking about speaking in tongues
Lucinda Lavender: glad to see you but especially Korl...
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Luci, Korel, Cal, Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Luci
Aphrodite Macbain: wherever you are
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Cinda, Seevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: never actually hears that
Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia
stevenaia Michinaga: cept on tv
Aphrodite Macbain: who knows what really happened with the apostles sor whether anything happened at all
Aphrodite Macbain: but in the 1st century, it was seen as a miracle
Korel Laloix: And today it is a matter of faith in a way.
Aphrodite Macbain: the more miracles you could produce, the more people would follow you
Aphrodite Macbain: yes KOrel
Aphrodite Macbain: it seems to me miracles are always a matter of faith or are unexplainable
Korel Laloix: or both.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods, yes
Korel Laloix: Lots of unexplainable good things and bad things happen each day really.

--BELL--
Lucinda Lavender: I had my concert...it went well enough...and discovered that pho is a great help for a cold...
Aphrodite Macbain: I was trying to think of some from today
Aphrodite Macbain: pho?
Korel Laloix: pho?. the vietnamese dish?
Lucinda Lavender: the vietnamese soup
Korel Laloix: OH Ok.. if it is hot enough... smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: yummy, it;s chicken soup, how could it hurt
Lucinda Lavender: yes... the steam and jalapenos
Lucinda Lavender: and yes chicken on purpose
Calvino Rabeni: Here's an interesting quote .. from the article, and a bit like singing too, Cinda
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh - I just thought it meant soup
Korel Laloix: Well, if done right with somehting more hot than jalapenos.
Lucinda Lavender: it does
Lucinda Lavender: the choices are many for the ingredients
Lucinda Lavender: now I want to learn how to make it
Lucinda Lavender: what was giving me a pain in the head and throat just melted away
Calvino Rabeni:

Augustine did, however, recognise a phenomenon he called jubilation[35] - sounds of exaltation without words; commentators such as Richard Hogue speculate that the practice of singing in the spirit persisted in Augustine's era, although xenoglossia was no longer extant among Christians:[36] Behold, he giveth as it were the tune of thy song; seek not words as if thou couldest explain whereby God is pleased. Sing with jubilation: for this is to sing skilfully unto God, to sing with jubilation. What is it to sing with jubilation ? To be unable to understand, to express in words, what is sung in the heart. For singers, either in the harvest, or in the vineyard, or in any other busy work, after they have begun in the words of their hymns to exult and rejoice, being as it were filled with so great joy, that they cannot express it in words, then turn from actual words, and proceed to sounds of jubilation. The jubilee is a sound signifying that the heart laboureth with that which it cannot utter.

Aphrodite Macbain: You had a cold during your concert? :(
Calvino Rabeni: computer is so slow, he's talking about the previous subject
Lucinda Lavender: yes all week while preparing
Korel Laloix: Thanks...good reading.
Aphrodite Macbain: nice Cal-
Lucinda Lavender: pho and a nap...very helpful
Aphrodite Macbain: singing in a shower
Lucinda Lavender: nice cal
Aphrodite Macbain: scat
Aphrodite Macbain: making joyful sound
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether this is what promted singing in Neanderthal days
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they did neuroscience brain scans of speaking in tongues - would be interesting if they compared it with scat singing
Calvino Rabeni: Apparently no language centers of the brain are active during it
Aphrodite Macbain: thinks of Bobby McFarren (sp?)
Lucinda Lavender: One becomes an instrument perhaps
Aphrodite Macbain: wonder what part of the brain was activated
Aphrodite Macbain: is there a separate part for music and tone?
Aphrodite Macbain: I want to come back in my next life as a neuro scientist
Lucinda Lavender: :))
Lucinda Lavender: love learning about the brain
Lucinda Lavender: and song
Aphrodite Macbain: Kori - are there research jobs in neuroscience?
Aphrodite Macbain: me too-
Aphrodite Macbain: ethno musicologists
Aphrodite Macbain: searches the web for an answer
Korel Laloix: Yes...
Calvino Rabeni: If "next life" is in a entury or so, it might make sense to come back as a cyborg - then it would be posible t experiment a bit more with the mechanical part of one's brain programming .. perhaps the nobel prizewinning neuroscientist of 2100 will be acyborg ...
Calvino Rabeni: (or not )
Korel Laloix: Not someething that really catches my atention though.
Aphrodite Macbain: yikes
Korel Laloix: Interesting thought.
Korel Laloix: Cyborg is an interesting word though.
Korel Laloix: Not really sure what it means.
Calvino Rabeni: cybernetic organism
Aphrodite Macbain: a robot, no?
Aphrodite Macbain: some of the brain circuits involved in music perception appear to be separate from those that process language and other sounds in the environment. Evidence for this comes from studies on people with amusia, a severe form of tone-deafness. Amusical individuals are unable to perceive pitch differences in music, and consequently may have an inability to sing in tune, dance to music, or remember songs. Surprisingly, such individuals have otherwise fully normal cognitive abilities, and their language and hearing abilities are unscathed.
Calvino Rabeni: no, a hybrid between biological animal and machine
Aphrodite Macbain: ah right- I believe William Gibson coined the word
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: there are also people unable to speak .. but they can remember and recite whole songs with words and all
Aphrodite Macbain: yes it has something to do wwwwith the way memory works
Korel Laloix: They way the brain acts post trauma is amazing.
Aphrodite Macbain: people can remember a whole song but cant remember what was just said to them
Rosatta Resident: 's current display-name is "Rosatta".
Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scat_singing
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Rosatta
Calvino Rabeni: It's a bit like, people who can't walk .. but they can ride a bicycle okay
Lucinda Lavender: can you say more Korel?
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Rosatta Resident: Hi, Aphrodite : )
Korel Laloix: Well, people with brain injuries.....
Korel Laloix: End up with some pretty strange issues.
Aphrodite Macbain: Their brains can repair themselves
Korel Laloix: one case I read recently where I guy lost the ability to visual ize things spacially.
Aphrodite Macbain: brains are "plastic"
Korel Laloix: Very adapative.. to a point.
Aphrodite Macbain: A good way to learn about the function of a brain is to observe people with brain damage
Aphrodite Macbain: and what is missing
Korel Laloix: yes.. and sadly there are lots to observe.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: Did you read about the neuroscientist who had a stroke?
Rosatta Resident: I found the book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For a Hat" fascinating
Calvino Rabeni shudders
Aphrodite Macbain: She was able to observe from the inside what happened to her
Korel Laloix: I have read a number of case studies, yes.
stevenaia Michinaga: she gave a great TED talk abut it
Aphrodite Macbain: and rememebr it and record it
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: what makes you shudder Cal?
stevenaia Michinaga: and was interviewed today on Radio Lab on NPR
Aphrodite Macbain: oh! what a coincidence
Calvino Rabeni: The shudder is the sense of how many viewers of the TED talk sort of figured themight be better off with half their brain damaged
Rosatta Resident: Ok, that's not right
stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.radiolab.org/2010/aug/09/?utm_source=local&utm_media=treatment&utm_campaign=daMost&utm_content=damostviewed
Calvino Rabeni: a sort of quasi enlightenment through injury
Aphrodite Macbain: why would they do that?
Aphrodite Macbain: just to learn?
Calvino Rabeni: to me it seemed a bit like a deliverance myth
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose there are many scientists who have used themselves as guinea pigs
Rosatta Resident: Do you think that hypnosis also shows how the brain works to some extent? It seems to, to me
Calvino Rabeni: Nods, yes, a lot of self experimentation by Oliver Sacks
Aphrodite Macbain: oh? can you say more Rosatta?
Calvino Rabeni: I agree, Rosatta
Rosatta Resident: Watching the shows put on, it is interesting what can and acnnot be done to someone under hypnosis
Aphrodite Macbain: does it affect how we understand memory?
Rosatta Resident: *cannot
Rosatta Resident: Definitely perception, so that would include memory, I would think
Calvino Rabeni: It probably shows functional alterations that can occur by switching on and off different brain functions
Aphrodite Macbain: so somethings are unchangeable and some things can be affected and influenced
Aphrodite Macbain wonders where attitudes and beliefs are stored in the brain
Rosatta Resident: I watched a woman so deeply under that it was unusual, but teh hypnotist could not get her to believe that gummi bears were star burst candy
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe she didnt know what star burst candy was
Calvino Rabeni: Attitudes and beliefs would be widely distributed, using different brain areas .. but that's true of a lot of activities
Rosatta Resident: She hated gummi bears and loved star bursts - and the hypnotists could not convincer her the gummi bears were not gummit bears
Rosatta Resident: She actually spit one out and gavae it back to him
Aphrodite Macbain: taste is deeply embedded into memory. I often ownder why I hate cucumbers
Aphrodite Macbain: wonder
Calvino Rabeni: it starts to be like asking, where in an engine is the "torque"
Aphrodite Macbain: Nods
Calvino Rabeni: its dependent on correct functioning of many parts
Korel Laloix: Probably becuase they are nasty Aph.. smiles
Rosatta Resident: Ah
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: night all
Calvino Rabeni: Some people claim that as their *favorite vegetable*
Aphrodite Macbain: night stevie
Rosatta Resident: Good night, Stevenia
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Stevenaia
Rosatta Resident: It was good seeing you again
Korel Laloix: Some people have poor taste yes.
Korel Laloix: Take care...
Calvino Rabeni: Can you name a better vegetable? Maybe a pumpkin?
Aphrodite Macbain: the smell makes me sick
Rosatta Resident: I have often pondered the things I've seen in those shows
Aphrodite Macbain: a watermelon is also very offensive
Korel Laloix: Pumpkins are good.
Rosatta Resident: It's a little scary how easily something can be suggested and the person believes it is real
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- people dont need to be hypnotized

--BELL--
Korel Laloix: brb
Aphrodite Macbain: they believe authority, the believe a crowd
Aphrodite Macbain: whispers: time for dinner. CU tomorrow Cal
Calvino Rabeni: According to some postmodern theorists, the idea of an "authentic utterance" is a modernist invention
Rosatta Resident: Or if something is said over and over and over
Calvino Rabeni: nods .. yes, I ought ot go too
Rosatta Resident: Good night, Aphrodite
Korel Laloix: Take care
Calvino Rabeni: before the system overheats and crashes
Calvino Rabeni: take care everyone
Rosatta Resident: Good night, Cal
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Rosatta, Korel, Cinda
Korel Laloix: Take care
Korel Laloix: Just watching the weather now, Still pretty scary.
Lucinda Lavender: I hope all are as safe as can be...
Lucinda Lavender: I bet it is!
Korel Laloix: Just glad I am over here...
Korel Laloix: Tiem for bed though.
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat all.
Rosatta Resident: Take care, Korel
Korel Laloix: ciao all
Rosatta Resident: I hope you are healing well from your fall
Lucinda Lavender: yes! me too
Korel Laloix: yes I am.. a bit less painful today, bu still on the motrin.
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Lucinda Lavender: stay safe...
Lucinda Lavender: I should go too
Rosatta Resident: The session time is past, anyway : )
Rosatta Resident: It was very good to see you again, Lucinda
Rosatta Resident: I'll leave the circle so you can get the log
Lucinda Lavender: Thanks...it was Cal's I think
Lucinda Lavender: see you again..
Rosatta Resident: Oh, ok : )
Rosatta Resident: Sleep well, sweet lady
Lucinda Lavender: bye for now..
Lucinda Lavender: :))