2009.03.16 13:00 - Joining In

 

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

{During this session we continued our investigation of “appreciating appearance as a presentation of Being. The emphasis was on not just being an observer, but joining in more completely.}

Fefonz Quan: Hello Stim

Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz

Fefonz Quan: Hello Ade, Scath :)

Stim Morane: Hi Adelene and Scathach

Adelene Dawner: :)

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Fefonz, Adelene

Mickorod Renard: hiya everyone

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Micko, Ara

Fefonz Quan: Hello Mick,arabella

arabella Ella: hiya everyone!

Stim Morane: Hi arabella and Mick

Mickorod Renard: hi fefonz

Mickorod Renard: Stim

Mickorod Renard: Scath

Adelene Dawner is primarily wordless today; this may have something to do with her having figured out why she was thinking of doing a 'not speaking' practice, but she's not going to explain it today. ^.^

arabella Ella: Fefonz, Stim, Scath Adelene, Mick

Pila Mulligan is Online

Mickorod Renard: Ara

Mickorod Renard: hi Ade

arabella Ella: hiya Pila

Mickorod Renard: hi Pila

Pila Mulligan: greetings

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila

Stim Morane: Hi Pila

Stim Morane: Pema just IM'd me to say he'll be a few minutes late

Stim Morane: So what trouble can we get into meanwhile?

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Mickorod Renard: hiya Wol

Wol Euler: looks I arrived just in time!

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol

Stim Morane: Hi Wol

Wol Euler: hello all

Mickorod Renard: Hiya Pema

Pema Pera: Hi everybody!

Pila Mulligan: hi Wol and Pema

Pema Pera: sorry to be late

arabella Ella: hiya Pema

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema

Stim Morane: Hi Pema

Wol Euler waves

arabella Ella: Hiya Wol

Pema Pera: so this is the continuation of a weekly theme meeting, moderated by Stim and me

PaB Listener Master whispers: The session has not yet been claimed by a Guardian.

Pema Pera: about "appreciating the presence of appearance"

Pema Pera: (Stim, you probably would like to claim the session :-)

PaB Listener Master: Stim Morane has just claimed the session and will receive link to the log after the session is done. This replaces any previous claim.

Pema Pera: Stim, would you like to start off?

Stim Morane: As I've mentioned before, the main way I usually do this sort of thing is based on reports from other people ... how they're doing, etc.

Stim Morane: In this case, if I have to start without that, I'd just say the main thing is to try it. And continue, and learn ...

Stim Morane: I'm not sure how that's going ... if I have to add something, I'd suggest becoming more aware of what is being added to "appearances"

Stim Morane: But that too has been discussed here.

Stim Morane: The question is, has it been extensively explored, and if so, with what results?

Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)

Stim Morane: Hi Fael

Pema Pera: Hi Fael!

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael

Pila Mulligan: hi Fael

Pema Pera: May I try to elaborate on that, Stim?

Stim Morane: Please

Mickorod Renard: Hi Fael

Pema Pera: So there are two things that we can do:

Pema Pera: 1) in RL and SL and whenever and wherever: we can slowly repeat for ourselves the sentence "appreciate the presence of appearance", as something to put on the tongue, so to speak, and to let slowly melt

Pema Pera: at first it may not make much sense, but as Stim said: try it, and see what happens. Most likely something will happen and it will begin to make some kind of sense

Pema Pera: 2) here in SL during the PaB sessions we can follow up in yet again two ways:

Pema Pera: 2a) report on what happened during 1); how we felt, what was puzzling, what was inspiring, and discuss that and compare our experiences and our interpretations

Pema Pera: 2b) try to walk around the sentence, as a group, trying to wrap our mind around it, so to speak, getting familiar with it my trying to analyze it

Pema Pera: The way that could happen is to start at the end, asking questions like:

Pema Pera: -- what is this "appearance", what is meant by that word?

Pema Pera: -- what is the "presence of appearance", what does that point to?

Pema Pera: -- what is the "appreciation" that we are talking about in "appreciate the presence of appearance"?

Pema Pera: So in all this, we'll have to do 1) on ourselves, and I really hope you will try that out on your own, in between this session and the one next week

Pema Pera: and here we can focus on 2a) and 2b): starting with reporting/sharing and starting with probing/questioning

Pema Pera: Does anyone like to start with either 2a or 2b ?

Pila Mulligan: maybe the question, what is the "presence of appearance"?

Pila Mulligan: to you, the moderators :)

Stim Morane: what does it mean to us?

Pila Mulligan: or is that appropriate?

Pila Mulligan: yes

Stim Morane: To me it points at the presence of all things

Stim Morane: I could say "in their immediacy", but that may imply things that are not quite right

Stim Morane: Anyway, this gets back to the "suchness" topic.

Stim Morane: It's all about suchness, but that term can't itself be defined in other, common terms

arabella Ella: but ... if i may ... all things ... when we appreciatge the presence of appearance don't we focus on something in particular and not on 'everything'?

Stim Morane: so in a way, it's not easy to give a completely forthcoming answer to your question

Stim Morane: Is that what you do, arabella?

arabella Ella: yes

Stim Morane: And ...?

arabella Ella: may i give one or two brief examples?

Stim Morane: please

arabella Ella: well the other day i looked out to sea on a lovely warm day with a clear blue sky

arabella Ella: and i noticed two seagulls

arabella Ella: this happened to be twice recently

Stim Morane: so what was the "appearance" in that case?

arabella Ella: and i focussed on the seagulls in the distance to appreciate the presence of appearance

Stim Morane: I see

arabella Ella: and again on some lovely freesias blooming on my roof

arabella Ella: the colour, the shape, the texture, the smell, etc

Stim Morane: would you accept that the "focusing" and the "I" that focused and the sense perception(s) being used were also "appearances" too?

arabella Ella: yes i think so

Stim Morane: this will lead to my "everything"

arabella Ella: but it seemed as though i blocked out everything else

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Stim Morane: Well I agree with your approach of course. One can't go trying to include "everything".

arabella Ella: yes i see

Stim Morane: But still, a great deal is involved in even a very small, focussed thing

arabella Ella: thanks for the clarification

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Adelene Dawner: http://www.365tomorrows.com/03/04/talkstink/

arabella Ella: with the seafulls it was a sense of wonder, of freedom, of carefreeness and the smell of the sea

arabella Ella: and of movement of course as they were in flight

Stim Morane: you are appreciating life, and the world ... this is a very important thing.

arabella Ella: yes

arabella Ella: the beauty in awe and wonder

Stim Morane: Yes, exactly. Great! Hopefully it can be kept while we are also appreciating the rest of what is involved in the components.

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arabella Ella: ok yes

Stim Morane: I.e., we can not only appreciate life, but what is involved in the appreciation itself.

Stim Morane: Sometimes this latter will pull the plug on the former, which is a pity.

arabella Ella: could you elaborate a bit on that Stim please?

Stim Morane: But in the longer term, it actually intensifies what you're describing.

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Stim Morane: When people try what Pema is suggesting, in the short term they may become narrow-focused and lose their connection to life's preciousness.

Stim Morane: But in the longer term, they appreciate much much more.

Stim Morane: I think the same thing happens when we try to learn anything new.

Fefonz Quan: yes, for me it commonly have some detached floating feeling accompanying it

Stim Morane: Yes

Fefonz Quan: has*

Mickorod Renard: its sometimes nicer learning something old

Stim Morane: I agree. Life should always involve learning.

Stim Morane: And not just along the same old lines.

Fael Illyar: Yes, learning :)

Mickorod Renard: if you read a book for a second time,,its interesting how much more you get outa it

Stim Morane: Yes. In this case, we're talking about that, plus learning and seeing more about the whole context and underpinnings of the "reading".

Stim Morane: This wil require bringing out a new kind of mind to do it.

Mickorod Renard: I tend to treat people like books nowadays,,so much more to a person than the cover

Stim Morane: :)

Fael Illyar: Yes, although, like with books, you don't have the time to look under every cover :)

Mickorod Renard: the mind wonders off

Stim Morane: No, but we have the time to appreciate what is with us at any given moment ... at least some of the time.

Fefonz Quan suggest we writer previews on our back to make it easier Fael :)

Mickorod Renard: thinking

Fael Illyar: yes, I'd think that's why I concentrate on my AVs appearance this much here :)

Stim Morane: :)

Fael Illyar: no idea how it's read or what exactly it reads though :)

Wol Euler: RL needs right-clickable profiles.

Stim Morane: I'm becoming intrigued and worried now ...

Fefonz Quan: business cards Wol?

Qt Core: soul card maybe

Wol Euler: rather that, Qt

Pema Pera: perhaps Stim was not talking about information . . . .

Fael Illyar: worried?

Stim Morane: no, that's why I'm a bit worried.

Mickorod Renard: but I guess if we can extend the same interest to objects,,or life as a whole,,then this is appreciating?

Stim Morane: We need to see, not more information.

Pema Pera: :-)

Stim Morane: We don't realize how much the capacity to see can be opened up. So we short-change it.

Pema Pera: what Arabella said had very little to do with clicking on a profile of one of the birds . . . .

arabella Ella: sounds very true to me

Stim Morane: I also agree that the overlays you're talking about will be useful too, of course.

Stim Morane: Yes, very true ... we should all follow her approach.

Pema Pera: !!

Stim Morane: That's the beginning of something with many other facets.

Pema Pera: and all come to Malta, to hear beach :-)

Pema Pera: *her

Mickorod Renard: yeaaaa

arabella Ella: yes you are all welcome of course!

arabella Ella: to listen to the sound of waves on the shore

Fefonz Quan: Stim you don't mean only visual seeing, i guess

Stim Morane: no, it's not really visual.

Stim Morane: But it includes that, of course.

Mickorod Renard: so,,are we back to for example,,the greater perception that say a cobbler would have about a shoe?

arabella Ella: i think it involves all the senses some of which seem to be combined at times

Stim Morane: But really, it's something much more than the use of the senses to apprehend objects.

Stim Morane: Yes arabella, it actually can involve a kind of fusion of the senses at a certain stage ... and go beyond that too.

arabella Ella: yes it involves the feelings and meanings we sense about the presence we are appreciating i think

Stim Morane: yes, very true.

Stim Morane: so you can see how big an adventure we're talking about here.

Pila Mulligan: if i am feeling happy, and I starting inquiring as to the details of the happiness, the inquiry may displace the feeling

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Stim Morane: yes, this is what I was referring to before, Pila.

Stim Morane: But that will change.

Pila Mulligan: worrisome :)

Stim Morane: it won't be a long-term problem because the dryness of the stage you're talking about will itself be something to see more.

Stim Morane: And that releases its limiting influence.

arabella Ella: could you not perhaps Pila 'ride the wave' of your happy feeling and see how you are pleasurably sensing it

Stim Morane: Everything much be included.

Pila Mulligan: true

XSkunk Karu: saludos terricolas

Stim Morane: my arms have reached their typing limit ... Pema?

XSkunk Karu: pero que dices!!

Pema Pera: Skunk, can you please switch off your sound

Mickorod Renard: anyone smell a skunk?

XSkunk Karu: como lo hago?

Pila Mulligan: bye

arabella Ella: silencio Skunk por favor

Mickorod Renard: he he he

Pema Pera: well, that was an interesting variation on a theme . . .

Mickorod Renard: there is appreciation,,and also realisation,,of certain misseries in the world

Mickorod Renard: how do we contend with that?

Wol Euler: skunk, follow me please, I will tell you what we are doing here.

Wol's translator: skunk, síganme, por favor, le diré lo que estamos haciendo aquí.

Pila Mulligan: distractions?

Wol Euler: over here please, skunk

Wol's translator: aquí, por favor, skunk

Pema Pera: perhaps contending is not the question, Mick

Fael Illyar: ummh... on my screen, skunk is standing out of scan range.

Pema Pera: if we explore appearance, its presence, and ways to appreciate its presence, we can start with that

Pema Pera: we don't want to start with analyzing

Mickorod Renard: ok,,I need some positive thought

Pema Pera: there is no end to that -- that is what we normally do: trying to figure out, trying to manipulate, for better or worse

arabella Ella: do you mean we could attempt to move above and beyond anything that could make us miserable?

Pema Pera: just looking at what is the case, like a mirror does, without getting stained

Pema Pera: not above

Pema Pera: not beyond

Pema Pera: just watching it

Qt Core: or just stay in place and let it pass

Pema Pera: perhaps not even that

Pema Pera: not worrying about passing or not

Mickorod Renard: I did feel some 15-20 years ago like I was above the rest of the world nd like an observer

Pema Pera: just see what is there in each moment

Qt Core: yes, just staying not even noticing it

Pema Pera: not judging, that is the key

Pema Pera: very hard to do !

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Stim Morane: It's important not to become an "observer"

Mickorod Renard: I feel I have done it once imn the past,,and can relate,,but these days feel too distracted

Pema Pera: yes, Mick it can take on such forms, but the key is to not look for anything particularly special, though if that happens, you can also appreciate that

Qt Core: don't know, i usually argue a lot with the concept of we don't have to judge

Pema Pera: but then, Mick, you can appreciate the presence of the appearance of distractions

Pema Pera: this works for everything ! ! !

Wol Euler chuckles

Mickorod Renard: stim,,u say' not be an observer'?

Pema Pera: bored?

Pema Pera: appreciate the presence of the appearance (APA) of being bored

Pema Pera: annoyed? APA of being annoyed

Stim Morane: seeing is not "looking at" in an abstracted way

Mickorod Renard: ok

Stim Morane: it's more like joining in

Mickorod Renard: mmmmmmmm?

Stim Morane: would you agree, arabella?

Adelene Dawner: 'observer' imploes more than *just* watching. Thinking about, too. Judging. Considering.

Fefonz Quan: joining in indeed makes it hard not to be invloved

arabella Ella: yes of course seeing is sensing in a special way ... to notice, observe, interpret in a way we do not normally do

Fefonz Quan: for me observing is much easier for the non-judhement thing

arabella Ella: seeing what thoughts come to mind connected to the presence and suspending judgement

Qt Core: maybe i'm not understanding something... how can i act without judging ?

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Pema Pera: start with watching without judging

Pema Pera: or de-emphasizing judging

Pema Pera: Arabella, while watching the seagulls did you get a sense of joining their flight in some way?

Fael Illyar: that's the trick, some judging is necessary but to become stuck with the judgements you make is rather common.

Qt Core: mmm, ok, i think i was thinking at another type of judging

arabella Ella: it was actually a bit of a sense of longing for more freedom Pema watching the seagulls in flight

You decline BUDDHA CENTERBuddhist Meditati, Buddhism new (198, 129, 31) from A group member named Delani Gabardini.

arabella Ella: but in a positive way

Mickorod Renard: I have joined in with birds flight before,,,I put it down to the fact I used to fly radio controlled model aircraft

Adelene Dawner: Qt: Expand?

Pema Pera: normally we identify with our body, or just our head or eyes . . . at times which you talked about, Arabella, we can sometimes feel to be present in a much wider way, including the birds perhaps, is that anywhere near what you felt?

Qt Core: i was thinking about judging people and daily situations

Pema Pera: big topic, Qt!

Qt Core: not simple fact

Pema Pera: normally there are subtle judgments at work in almost anything we even think, or say, or do

Pema Pera: like and dislike

Fael Illyar: Qt, that's quite exactly the type of judging we mean here.

Pema Pera: APA goes beyond like and dislike

Mickorod Renard: but is that because you surrender to' Being' ?

Qt Core: i've discussed judgment several times, and i usually end being the only one saying we have to judge to act but being ready to change opinion if more informations become avaiable

Pema Pera: one step at a time, Mick :-)

Pema Pera: let's start with appreciation

Pema Pera: fair enough, Qt!

Pema Pera: sure, we should not suppress or deny the judging we have to do in daily life

Pema Pera: but we can also put it on hold

Pema Pera: or "wear it lightly"

Pila Mulligan: I agree that we judge to act

Pema Pera: like in a stage play, going through the motions without identifying too strong with it all

Qt Core: many says it is partial and "racist" (i know it isn't the right world but is strong enough

Wol Euler: I think I need a reboot, brb.

Qt Core: word

Pema Pera: you can agree about differences, and yet not judge them as absolutely good or bad

Pema Pera: only relatively.

Fael Illyar: speaking about judging is extra tricky because it tends to be understood subtly differentl b different people

Pema Pera: If someone is tall, it is not good or bad -- but very good if you need something to pick up a roll of paper from a high shelf

Pila Mulligan: true, Fael

Qt Core: not many things are absolute, judgements surely aren't

Pema Pera: but we tend to view them as absolute, Qt

Pema Pera: that's our problem . . . we all do

Pema Pera: hard to let that go

Pema Pera: or even to see that we are doing that!

Qt Core: i thinks that is what people thinks when they say we shouldn't judge

Pila Mulligan: eventually, however happy or high our perceptions, people exercise judgment

Pema Pera: it is almost 2, judging from my clock . . . .

Pila Mulligan: :)

Mickorod Renard: if things are predetermined,,then whats the point in judging?

Pema Pera: how does that help appreciation, Mick, asking that question?

Pema Pera: not trying to be negative, but serious question from my side?

Mickorod Renard: well,,maybe apreciation is the only logical thing left

Pema Pera: ah! Okay, I see

Pila Mulligan: a free will question

Mickorod Renard: as critque is not relavent

Pema Pera: yes, appreciation can be independent of theories or assumptions

Pema Pera: Well, I have to go

Pema Pera: partly of my own free will

Stim Morane: Yes, I do as well

Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)

Pila Mulligan: thanks Stim and Pema

Wol Euler: bye pema, bye stim, thank you both

Pema Pera: free will to go to the appointment I agreed to go to . . . .

Mickorod Renard: bye Pema

Pema Pera: thank you Stim, and all !

arabella Ella: i personally feel that suspending judgement implies the acceptance of a number of different viewpoints which is also relevant to apa

Mickorod Renard: bye stim

Pema Pera: great to cover so much ground!

Stim Morane: thanks, everyone! Bye!

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, Pema, ty

Pema Pera: and thank you so much, Arabella, for grounding us in the air !!!

Mickorod Renard: yea,,u r expected on another spacial plane

arabella Ella: bye stim bye pema

Fael Illyar: arabella, yes, allowing the viewpoints to coexist.

Fefonz Quan: bye stim, pema

Mickorod Renard: he he