2009.03.16 19:00 - What makes fun fun

The Guardian for this meeting was Threedee Shepherd. The comments are by Threedee Shepherd.

Susi Alcott: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hello :)
Susi Alcott: hi 3D
Eliza Madrigal: Threedee, hello
Threedee Shepherd: hello
Susi Alcott: hi doug
doug Sosa: evening.
Eliza Madrigal: Evening doug
Susi Alcott: hi Ade
doug Sosa: :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ Hi all.
Eliza Madrigal: Adelene, Hi!
Threedee Shepherd: So, as GoC I will perform the basic task of asking if anyone has something to start for discussion ^.^
Susi Alcott: hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Eliza Madrigal: Greetings
Adelene Dawner growls vaguely. "Three, remind me never to live near train tracks again."
doug Sosa: I;ve been thinkingabout the moment between the 9 sec and the time before and after. I mean
doug Sosa: the immediate time, less than a second. what is it like?
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Fael :)
Susi Alcott: hi Fael
Pila Mulligan: hi Fael
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
Adelene Dawner: Gee, getting crowded tonight :)
Pila Mulligan: how would you describe the moment, doug?
Threedee Shepherd: Doug, when I am in SL, the 9sec is triggered by a bell (Iwherever I am) so that is hard to say.
Susi Alcott: hi steve
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
doug Sosa: i mostly do the 9 sec in RL.
Fael Illyar: Hi Steve :)
Eliza Madrigal: stevenaia, hi
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: not standing on anyone am I?
Pila Mulligan: a little
Pila Mulligan: not much :)
stevenaia Michinaga: ooops
Threedee Shepherd: So do I, Doug, but it seems the majority of my RL seems to be in SL, lately :D
Pila Mulligan: aole pilikia
Fael Illyar: I think I do the 9 secs in my mind.
Pila Mulligan: (no problem)
Fael Illyar: ... did I kill the conversation?
Susi Alcott: nope
doug Sosa: well, i was trying to figure out
doug Sosa: whre else you could do it?
Pila Mulligan: what were your thoughts about the moment before and after the 9 sec doug?
doug Sosa: for weeks i assumed that it was a jump start and a jump stop. but the more i noticed, the fuzzier the bounday became.
Fael Illyar: The boundary is mostly imaginary :)
Pila Mulligan: have you noticed any difference between the moment just before and the moment just after?
doug Sosa: interesting. the moment after is the fuzzier.
Pila Mulligan: that would make sense
doug Sosa: because?
Pila Mulligan: because the idea is to interrupt the velocity of the mundane activity, and at the start you are in it, but at the end your are less so
Pila Mulligan: maybe :)
Pila Mulligan: like jumping into a swimming pool
Fael Illyar: yes, you're wet when you come out :)
doug Sosa: i for one have been mostly experimenting wiht being in the 9 sec but not letting go of mundabnae activities, just letting them go on and be part of field.
doug Sosa: Fael, tat is verrrry clever:)
doug Sosa: But thre are those who get in slowly ("sooo cold!!) and get out fast.
Pila Mulligan: but even so, doug, that tarrying or pause for 9 seconds is a lift of some sort, isn;t it?
doug Sosa: a lift, a spread, a deepening.. jjust more. I wonder i don't stay there.
Pila Mulligan: so maybe an effect of the more is the fuzziness
stevenaia Michinaga: one of my very early sences of the meditation was emerging from water
Susi Alcott: from ?
stevenaia Michinaga: from underwater
Pila Mulligan: water is often seen as a symbol or metaphor of the psyche, in my esotric readings
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
doug Sosa: One looks at a lake and feel the unconscious under the surface.
Fael Illyar: Hi Corvi :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi
Eliza Madrigal: Makes sense
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Corvi
Adelene Dawner: Hi Luv ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all
stevenaia Michinaga: searches wiki for water... 25 hits
Susi Alcott: hi Cor
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Corvuscorva
stevenaia Michinaga: PaB wiki
Threedee Shepherd: hiya
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: an interesting observation of the before and after, dooug
Fael Illyar: Well, you don't take all the baggage back that you drop at the start so the difference ends up smaller.
Eliza Madrigal: That's a nice thought.
doug Sosa: one kind of baggage is traded for another. i thin the 9 sec is fairly strenuous, else we would stay in it.
doug Sosa: thin=think
Fael Illyar: well, you can take on baggage during it of course. Nothing to stop your from doing that :)
Eliza Madrigal: I can't say it is something I'm really doing as of yet...have only been thinking about it for a few days since I was here last, so not sure :)
Threedee Shepherd: Well, the 9 sec is different from prolonged meditation, because the 9 sec usually arises when you are already in the middle of doing "something" else and we react to interruption in fairly typical ways
Eliza Madrigal: I often pause while in the middle of other things, to breathe, but I'm not sure that I'd be good at more precise timing
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Eliza..it is kinda like that..you aren't sure for a while...that what you're doing counts..then..you are.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or that was my experience.
Fael Illyar: precise timing is not the point.
Fael Illyar: pausing is.
Eliza Madrigal: Yeah, I suppose that's what I'm asking...
Eliza Madrigal: because as a general rule I do practice pausing
Pila Mulligan: recognizing the term 'objectivity' is loaded with potentially misleading meanings, it seems to me that one idea of the exercise is to introduce a degree of objectivity into the mundane activity that surrouonds the 9 seconds
Pila Mulligan: the same would be true, probably of any simila rpausing
Fael Illyar: perhaps awareness would fit better?
Pila Mulligan: perhaps :)
Threedee Shepherd: or deep subjectivity--depands on how you look at it
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hm :)
Susi Alcott: hi buddha
Pila Mulligan: just looking to qaualify the part that doug referred to as 'more' earlier
Eliza Madrigal: Hi buddha
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi buddha
Pila Mulligan: hi buddha
Fael Illyar: Hi buddha :)
Pila Mulligan: eek
buddha Nirvana: hi all :))
Threedee Shepherd: hi buddha
Fael Illyar smiles at the fairy.
Pila Mulligan: Tinkerbell :)
doug Sosa: i like staying with the experience of more. the names, like awareness seem very inadequate.
buddha Nirvana: :) she wont go away
Fael Illyar: Thank you buddha :)
Susi Alcott: hi Tinkerbell :)
Pila Mulligan: maybe the Tinkerbell Effect is relevant to the discussion :)
Eliza Madrigal: I like the idea of getting space around what one is doing
Pila Mulligan: "The Tinkerbell effect describes those things that exist only because people believe in them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinkerbell_effect
Fael Illyar: my first approach to 9 seconds was to just sit there, eyes closed, doing nothing until I no longer felt like I have to do something else.
Eliza Madrigal: Hm..a bit of relief then
stevenaia Michinaga: a but if letting go
stevenaia Michinaga: of
stevenaia Michinaga: a bit of letting go
Fael Illyar: it usually took more than 9 seconds too to get there :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, she snows :)
Fael Illyar: at first
Eliza Madrigal: I think I go in and out of that place all day...sort of the "pray without ceasing" idea..but not really praying as such
Threedee Shepherd: its fairy dust, I think I recall
buddha Nirvana: I must go, sorry for the swinging door. Be well _/\_
Eliza Madrigal: Hah, yes :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fael Illyar: See you later buddha :)
Eliza Madrigal: Nite buddha
Fael Illyar: Thank you for stopping by :)
Pila Mulligan: bye buddha and tink
buddha Nirvana: NIte :))
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Pila Mulligan: one of the important elements of sports is timing, Michael Jordan (the basketball player) was a master of timing
Pila Mulligan: one of the effects of particpation in mundane activites is getting caught up in the flow, maybe going too fast or too slow as a result
Eliza Madrigal: My goodness...went to a basketball game a few weeks ago and was awestruck by the sense of different time flow for the players
Pila Mulligan: so maybe one effect of pausing is to harmonize your pace with a more natural timing
Pila Mulligan: isn't it so Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Perhaps, yes
Fael Illyar: I do take more pauses naturally now that I've done the 9 seconds for a while.
Eliza Madrigal: Nice thoughts to end the night with. I must go, but thanks everyone :) Nite
Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
Fael Illyar: See you later Eliza :)
Threedee Shepherd: I suspect there is a personality/behaviorial thing involved, too. aome people (me) find it hard to sit still, for example, while others can readily look almost catatonic to an observer.
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Eliza Madrigal: Bye :)
Pila Mulligan: probably 3d :)
Pila Mulligan: time is relative :)
Fael Illyar: I can sit still but usually I'm not :)
Pila Mulligan: I think of Einstein's train passing by as I watch a flower bloom
Threedee Shepherd: There is a Yiddish word that describes me: "Shpilkes' which is translates as nervous energy, but literally meanspins, as in siting on pins and meedles
Pila Mulligan: meedles is an intersting typo
Threedee Shepherd: indeed
doug Sosa: :)
doug Sosa: It just started to pour here, lod on the roof, and the experience of its coming in (the sound, the presence) seems like the 9 sec, which i guess has to do with an increased vigilance.
doug Sosa: lod=loud
Pila Mulligan: and water, by the way :)
doug Sosa: :)
Fael Illyar: at least for me, one way to describe the 9 seconds would be a shift from doing to observing.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: becoming more observant
Pila Mulligan: and being more observant makes you less likely to stumble over something, as in vigilance
Pila Mulligan: or to miss something
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: _/!\_
Threedee Shepherd: Well, perhaps the prevailing silence indicates the session is ending?
Pila Mulligan: I do not understand this really, but it is what came to mind -- from a book: "In a quantum mechanical experiment, the observed system, traveling undisturbed between the region of preparation and the region of measurement, develops according to the Schrodinger wave equation. During this time, all of the allowed things that could happen to it unfold as a developing wave function. However, as soon as it interacts with a measuring device (the observing system), one of those possibilities actualizes and the rest cease to exist. The quantum leap is from a multifaceted potentiality to a single actuality."
Pila Mulligan: from "The Dancing Wu Li Masters"
Pila Mulligan: it seems to relate in part to the ideas we talked about in this session
Pila Mulligan: as to what we observe
Threedee Shepherd: True of VERY small particles. For bigger things the wave function has already collapsed into what they are.
Pila Mulligan: ahh, thanks 3D
Pila Mulligan: so not metaphorically applicable :) -- but fun to think about anywya
Fael Illyar: bigger things end to be observed already :)
Fael Illyar: tend
Threedee Shepherd: But, as a metaphor it is interesting to apply to thoughts, given we don't know what a *thought* is
Pila Mulligan: a thought may be one possibility from a mutlitude, was my thinking then
Fael Illyar: oh, but we do... just can't explain it :)
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: or an observation
Pila Mulligan: and something about pausing seems to help
Threedee Shepherd: please say more, Fael
Fael Illyar: you know a thought when you see one :)
Threedee Shepherd: I know what is is to be thinking, I don'tr know what a thought is
Fael Illyar: well, you know enough to recognise it as a thought :)
Threedee Shepherd: I know enough to try to put a word to an experience, just like I use the word red. I don't know what red "is" if it really is any-thing.
Fael Illyar: words are just fingers pointing to the moon, so to speak.
Threedee Shepherd: of course. but Moon isn't here right now
Fael Illyar: I do not see how it matters if Moon is here right now.
Fael Illyar: (or was that a joke?)
Threedee Shepherd: it was a kind of joke, but clearly wasn't recognized as such :D
Pila Mulligan: I think a thought is an idea that coalesces from an image
Threedee Shepherd: what is an idea, I might ask
Pila Mulligan: a thought
Pila Mulligan: :)
Threedee Shepherd: ;P
Pila Mulligan: a mind moment occupied with an image, maybe
Threedee Shepherd: I assume you use "image" generically. Blind persons can think.
Pila Mulligan: yes, mental as well as visual
Fael Illyar: well, here we are, trying to express what a thought is in thoughts ... well, words.
Pila Mulligan: including, particularly, all those suppositions we have floating around that were discussed at the previous session :)
Pila Mulligan: true Feal :)
Threedee Shepherd: the impossible recursivity problem that consciousness allows to arise.
Threedee Shepherd: Actually, I suspect it takes language (symbol-izing) as well as consciousness.
Pila Mulligan: still, there seems to be value in the shift from doing to observing
Fael Illyar: Well, yes, if you spend too much time doing and too little observing, you'll be blind to what you're doing.
Threedee Shepherd: and/or be blinded by your doing
Threedee Shepherd: Can anyone here tell me where to click to capture the log?
Fael Illyar: yes, the base of the recorder in the fountain.
Fael Illyar: then claim button from the blue dialog it gives
Threedee Shepherd: ahh
Pila Mulligan: here is a fun rl observation from the rain forest -- this week we have had numerous sweet little showers, and often they have bee such that looking out one window you see rain, yet looking out naother you see sunshine (really:)
Threedee Shepherd: neat
Pila Mulligan: it is :)
Fael Illyar: (you can do the claim whenever, it'll then IM you a link to the log once the meetings ends. As in, everyone leaves or someone stops the recording)
Threedee Shepherd: thanks
Fael Illyar: (it's left click)
stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off
Fael Illyar: See you later Steve :)
Threedee Shepherd: off of what?
stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: waves at three
Threedee Shepherd: Actually, if you are typing you are ON
Fael Illyar is starting to get some hang of Three's humour... perhaps.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs at Fa...
Threedee Shepherd: Wordplay - Fael
Fael Illyar: misunderstanding words is common enough that I tend to usually take them for real misunderstandings :)
Threedee Shepherd laughs
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Squee.
Fael Illyar: ah, I can use this pose too when I'm wearing clothes like this :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Fael Illyar: Well, I better head to bed finally :P
Threedee Shepherd: goodnight Fael
Fael Illyar: seems I'm living with SLT timezone almost :P
Pila Mulligan: bye Fael
Fael Illyar waves.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Fa
Pila Mulligan: just looking at Shpilkes via google, 3d
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Threedee Shepherd: Its how my grandmother described me as a little boy
Pila Mulligan: found this one -- :)
Pila Mulligan: What does shpilkes mean? It's an interesting phrase, full of emotional force, a combination of humor and dread, which itself is the chief Jewish contribution to world culture. Moses: You shoulda seen it! G-d was a bush that burned yet was not consumed! Aaron: That's funny, Moishe. Only you could come up with something like that. [Pause.] This will be good for the Hebrews?
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: reminds me of Woody Allen
Corvuscorva Nightfire: g
Corvuscorva Nightfire: 'nigth all.
Pila Mulligan: g
Pila Mulligan: 'nite Corvi
Threedee Shepherd: night, Luv.
Pila Mulligan: a (dumb) technical question -- once you have the log, how to you put the text into the PaB wiki?
Threedee Shepherd: cut and paste
Pila Mulligan: paste into what though ?
Pila Mulligan: Pila is not a techy
Threedee Shepherd: Oh, somewhere there are instructions on the PaB website that explains. I forget where they are. Ask Wol by IM