2009.03.21 07:00 - Sin and Karma, or "Love"

The acting Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

This a dialog session between Geo and Pema and one worth reading.

Wol was first to arrive at the pavilion and left me a funny note on the autologger. Two hours later Wol would work with me on the issues of logs not being received. Soon, Geo arrived and then the rest of us began to arrive in bunches.

Wol Euler: hello geo, long time no see
Wol Euler smiles
Wol Euler: hello scath
Geo Netizen: Hi Scathach
Wol Euler: hiya mick
Geo Netizen: Hi Mick
Geo Netizen: Hi Adams
Wol Euler: morning adams
Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol, Geo ,Scath, Adams
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello Wol, Geo, Scath and Mick :)
Geo Netizen: Ah ... Pema is online .... good
Adams Rubble admires Geo's robe
Geo Netizen: Hi Pila
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pema
Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
Wol Euler: hello pila
Adams Rubble: Hello Pila :)
Wol Euler: and hello pema
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Wol Euler: the gang's all here :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila, Pema
Geo Netizen: Glad to see you Pema :)
Pema Pera: Hi there!
Pema Pera is wondering who ever would want to think of sin and karma on such a beautiful day . . . .
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wol Euler: isn't it? here too.
Geo Netizen chuckles
Wol Euler: the daffs are out!
Mickorod Renard: I am always thinking of sin
Pila Mulligan: the stars are still out here (at 4:00 am:)
Pema Pera: but as an example of karma: we said that we would talk about it, and we may build up bad karma by not doing so, so . . .
Wol Euler: wow, pila.
Pema Pera: wow, Pila!
Geo Netizen: Tis 1 C here .... still snow around
Pila Mulligan: brrr
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pila
Pema Pera: we had snow in NYC yesterday morning
Pila Mulligan: hi Mickorod
Mickorod Renard: Hi Fef
Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
Adams Rubble: Hello Fefonz :)
Wol Euler: morning fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Good saturday all :)
Pema Pera: Hi there Fefonz!
Geo Netizen: Hi Fefonz
Mickorod Renard: I think Ara is coming too

Niceties over, Pema cleared his throat and started things off...

Pema Pera: Well, shall we get started?
Adams Rubble: :)
Pila Mulligan: had we stopped?
Geo Netizen: is wondering if this is an usually large crowd for Saturday 7 am or is that just his imagination
Pema Pera: This is another theme session, with Geo and me talking about karma and sin
Wol Euler: ah!
Pema Pera: perhaps sin attracts avatars, Geo
Pema Pera: or is it karma?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: As for background:
Pema Pera: Geo and I have had a few discussions about Buddhist-Christian dialogues, between monks from either side
Pema Pera: and Geo mentioned as a concrete example that they found that karma and sin are actually closer related than they had thought at first
Pema Pera: so I suggested to make that a theme session, and here we are!
Pema Pera: Geo, would you like to say something, about sin, and perhaps I can then say something about karma? We can then open the floor to everybody

Geo began his introduction

Geo Netizen: Ok .... first full disclosure
Geo Netizen: I am Franciscan
Geo Netizen: In orthodox catholic theology, there are three main schools of thought.
Geo Netizen: There is the Augustinian, the Thomistic and the Franciscan school.
Geo Netizen: My discussion will flow from the Franciscan school.
Geo Netizen: Fundamental to all Franciscan theology is the idea that the core nature of the divine is love and perfection; God is perfect love.
Geo Netizen: All other attributes of the divine are root in, colored by and flow from this core nature.
Geo Netizen: And all love which we experience, including eros, philia and agape, has its origin and source in the divine.
Geo Netizen: With that background:
Geo Netizen: Sin is a free act by an individual away from this love.
Geo Netizen: I use the word act in a broad sense here which would include thoughts, words and deeds.
Geo Netizen: We are called to act in ways that move us to embrace this love.
Geo Netizen: (the opposite :)
Geo Netizen: Acts have effects and sin creates negative effects that can be experienced by the actor and by others including later generations.
Geo Netizen: Movement away from love can create currents that sweep others away.
Geo Netizen: People generally find this to be vague and they say “Just tell me what to do�.
Geo Netizen: That is why rules and commandments are very popular; the ‘thou shall nots’.
Geo Netizen: The breaking of these rules is a sin, not because a rule is broking, but because the act that breaks the rule is a movement away from love.
Geo Netizen: The sin lies in the movement away.
Geo Netizen: One who moves continually towards and embraces this love does not need rules and laws and is free from them.
Geo Netizen: This is, to the surprise of many Christians, a fundamental Pauline idea. :))
Geo Netizen: This very brief excursion into the notion of sin glosses many important details.
Geo Netizen: But I hope it provides a decent starting point for discussion.
Mickorod Renard: very nice Geo,,
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Geo Netizen nods in thanks
Pema Pera: thank you indeed, Geo, when I hear you speaking this way, I feel like joining the Franciscan order!
Solobill Laville: :)
Geo Netizen: We have a place just for you :)
Pema Pera: Indeed, reading about Saint Francis, and then visiting Assisi have been deeply moving experiences for me
Pema Pera: I visited Assisi twice, and I would love to go there again -- it is amazing how a place can convey the atmosphere of a historic presence, even so many centuries later . . . .
Pema Pera: But to respond to Geo's kind invitation :-)

Pema then responded with his introduction

Pema Pera: here is my disclosure:
Pema Pera: I was raised Christian, by loving parents who were extremely sincere in their Calvinist Dutch Reformed church ideals
Pema Pera: but I had a very hard time to see the good aspects of Calvinism, such as the personal responsibility and the focus on direct contact with God, and indeed the notion of following your own conscience before the eyes of God
Pema Pera: because for me it was so overshadowed by the terrible hypocrisy that went with it . . . .
Pema Pera: which I will not dwell on here.
Pema Pera: So I discarded any belief in, or interest for, religion until at age 17 I stumbled upon Hindu writings
Pema Pera: and I realized that mediation and contemplation were actually tools to tinker with, and tinkering I liked!
Wol Euler: welcome Sophia, I'll give you an introduction in IM so as not to disturb the group
sophia Placebo: thank you :)
Pema Pera: In that way, a deep interest was awakened in contemplation, one that I have been pursuing ever since, through inspiration from Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, as well as Islam through Sufism, and coming full circle through medieval Christian mysticism as well
Pema Pera: and in the end I decided not to become a Buddhist or for that matter a Christian (sorry, Geo :-) but to stay neutral, so to speak
Pema Pera: in other words, to keep my scientist hat on, you might say, and to explore the nature of reality in deep respect for all those traditions
Pema Pera: and making grateful use of the resources that they all present
Pema Pera: So that's my background, and now moving on to karma, I can temporarily put on a Buddhist hat, and summarize my understanding of it.
Pema Pera: Karma seems to be what in science is called causality
Pema Pera: anything that happens happens for reasons
Pema Pera: not just one reason, but very very many
Pema Pera: my favorite example is the question of why a light bulb shines; many reasons:
Pema Pera: not only "because you flick the light switch"
Pema Pera: also because you screwed in a bulb, bought the buld, somebody made it, transported it,
Pema Pera: also because you paid the electricity bill, and because untold workers are continuously providing electricity, repairing wires
Pema Pera: and so on -- people who feed and clothe the workers providing the electricity
Pema Pera: all of that goes into the shining of a single bulb . . . . basically all of humanity, and since humanity lives in and feeds of the biosphere, really the whole biosphere
Fefonz Quan: (the sun that put energy in the coals of the powerplant)
Pema Pera: and since that one is anchored on Mother Earth, which was born along with the planets from the protosolar nebula that formed in a larger nest of stars, probably thousands of them, in a spiral arm of our galaxy, it is our whole galaxy that has collaborated in letting the light bulb shine in my house
Pema Pera: So even for the current state of science, causality is a very dense and intricate web.
Pema Pera: Complexity studies, a relatively new branch of science, is attempting to make some sense of such webs, a very interesting field of study.
Geo Netizen: as is moral causality :)
Pema Pera: But science is still very young, in its modern form only a few hundred years, so it is not surprising that many aspects of causality are not discerned and charted, let alone interpreted
Pema Pera: indeed, Geo!
Pema Pera: so for me the notion of karma makes sense, as an extension of the scientific idea of causaility
Pema Pera: Personally, I am not that interested in discussions about what reincarnation might mean.
Pema Pera: I am simply agnostic.
Pema Pera: It may or may not make sense to think in terms of reincarnation, and most likely, if there is something to it, which may very well be the case, we have neither the vocabulary nor the insight to make sense of it
Pema Pera: So to wind up:
Pema Pera: for me karma makes sense, independent of what kind of belief one may have in reincarnation

And then began the discussion

Pema Pera: Geo, do you want to respond?
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen: I'd beintereted in hearing if anyone can see substantive difference between the two
Geo Netizen: as they have been outlined here
Pila Mulligan: may I interpose somethiing please
Geo Netizen nods

Pila brings up heaven and reincarnation

Pila Mulligan: to me, Pema and Geo, the most interesting part of this topic is the relationship of sin to heaven in the western tradition, and karma to reincarnation in the eastern -- people sometimes shy away from discussing heaven and reincarnation, but I urge us to be fearless and jump right in where angels fear to tread :)
Pila Mulligan: the simplest view of karma I've seen is that if you do right then you get off the wheel of reincarnation, and the simple corollary is if you do right then you get to heaven -- these are very meaningful ideas, neither trite nor frightening
Fefonz Quan a little disagree with the karma desription of pila
Pema Pera: yes, Pila, and I am happy to respond, those are the most essential points possible!
Geo Netizen: Doing right is to act in ways that move us to embrace this love.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Geo Netizen: Heaven is embracing and being embraced by the divine love
Pila Mulligan: these metaphors, however you interpret them, lie at the heart of their traditions
Geo Netizen: Therefore .... heaven is not a reward for right living
Geo Netizen: It is the natural result of it
Adams Rubble: :)

Is heaven here?

Solobill Laville: Geo, are you saying that heaven is "here"?

arabella Ella: yes and if i may doing the right things ... which is common to both ... also have intrinsic as opposed to extrinsic value
Pema Pera: For me there is a great parallel between the Christian idea that Christ died for our sins, and hence they are no longer an obstacle for salvation, and the most radical Buddhist notion that karma doesn't exist, ultimately (in Zen and Dzogchen for example)
Geo Netizen: One can certainly experience it in the 'here and now'
Pila Mulligan: there is a kernel of ecommon ethics here
Pema Pera: yes, Geo
Pema Pera: heaven and hell are both here, fully available
Wol Euler agrees
arabella Ella: i personally see more similarities than differences
Fefonz Quan hums "heaven is a place n earth..."
Pema Pera: Today You Will Be with Me in Paradise, Luke 23:43
Solobill Laville: Geo, can you describe "perfection" in the "perfect love" sense?
Wol Euler smiles and hums "heaven is a place where nothing ever happens" - timelessness again!
Geo Netizen: Probably not with any real rigor Solo
Solobill Laville: ok :)
Geo Netizen: I relate to the concept more by examples of exception that I experience
Pila Mulligan: but then isn't doing right to act in ways that move us toward heaven?
Geo Netizen: I know what love is .... I see where it is not perfect ....
Geo Netizen: I imagine it being perfect
Pema Pera: neither happening, nor not happening, Wol, paradise/heaven is beyond both, that is so essential !!!
Wol Euler: right
Mickorod Renard: maybe,,but doing right for the love of it not for the reward of heaven
Pila Mulligan: :)
Solobill Laville: The seed and the fruit...
Wol Euler: as I would expect Right Action to still be significant in Zen even without belief in karma

Effects of Love

Geo Netizen: When I love someone, I want to do things for them
Geo Netizen: When good things happen to them I feel happy
Pema Pera: Zen beliefs and doesn't believe in karma. both levels simultaneously, Wol
Pila Mulligan: and what about Nirvana, oh Buddhist buddies?
Wol Euler: :)
Solobill Laville: Great band
Geo Netizen: When bad thing happen I really feel bad
Solobill Laville: ;)
Wol Euler throws a cushion at Solo.
Pema Pera: yes, that's it, Geo, that's a beautiful summary
Geo Netizen: So if I love I naturally act in a way we would call good
Fefonz Quan throws another cushion, don't like them
Pila Mulligan: isn't right action a signpost on the path to Nirvana?

Entertainment of Idea there is no heaven, no norvana, no samsara

Pila Mulligan: as Pema once said, this is your language :)
Pema Pera: that can be answered in many ways, Pila
Pema Pera: in the most radical way, which I like best, I would say: there is no nirvana
Pema Pera: and there is no samsara
Pema Pera: there is nothing to reach
Pila Mulligan: as there is no heaven :)
Pema Pera: only to celebrate that all is already
Pema Pera: as it is
Pila Mulligan: except being embraced by love
Pema Pera: and all is complete
Fefonz Quan: yes, but the christians don't claim that, or are they Geo?
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: very similar to Geo's summary
Pema Pera: but that has to be taken in the right way
Pema Pera: very subtle
Pila Mulligan: you're transcending the metaphors of your traditions :)
Geo Netizen: Heaven is not a place
Pema Pera: Saint Francis also transcended them, Pila :)
Fefonz Quan: but is it a state of mind?
Geo Netizen: It is a state of existence
Pema Pera: no that is far too limiting, Fef
Pila Mulligan: they are beautiful meaningful metaphors
arabella Ella: isn't heavn a state of being?
Geo Netizen: more fundamental than state of mind

I can't help myself. AsI am listening it seems to me that we wre drifting off topic trying to define what heaven is

Adams Rubble: Heaven becomes a little irrelevant...it is Love which is an end in itself
Pema Pera: heaven is not a state, in the sense of existing or being static, or any of the aspects we normally associate with "state"
Mickorod Renard: I agree somewhat with Adams
Pila Mulligan: is that Buddhist or Christian Adams?
Pema Pera: yes, Adams!
Adams Rubble: hehe Pila
Solobill Laville: It is "Adams"!
Fefonz Quan: Buddhistian
Mickorod Renard: I agree with Adams yet label myself Christian
Wol Euler: own-brand religion!
Geo Netizen: space-time is an artifact of temporal reality
Pila Mulligan: so maybe we have conquered a common ethic
arabella Ella: could you expand Adams on love as an end in itself?

We cross chat a little but start to drift back to sin

Pema Pera: Mick, you said early on that you are always thinking about sin, can you say more about that?
arabella Ella: itself
Geo Netizen: since they don't exist in the reality that I am referring to
Pema Pera: yes, Geo !!!
Geo Netizen: it does make sense to question the use of the term 'state'
Adams Rubble: I too am thinking of Paul, Arabella...I Corinthians 13
Geo Netizen: but we are such creatures of time
Geo Netizen: so imersed in it
arabella Ella: do you have the quote Adams?
Mickorod Renard: Well Pema,,I was joking,,but I do try to avoid sin and as such can be a quest like love
Geo Netizen: it is so difficult to step outside the concepts
Adams Rubble: sorry Arabella..not good with quotes

Love and Sexuality and Sin

arabella Ella: but ... once we mention sin and love ... dare i raise the topic of the connection of love with sexuality?
Mickorod Renard: I am aware that sin presents itself to me all the time
Geo Netizen: The fullness of perfect love includes love of self, love of the other and love of the beloved loving the other.
arabella Ella: the catholic church of which I am a member preaches love yet prohibits sex except for procreation
Geo Netizen: It is so easy to get stuck in the love of self level
Solobill Laville nods
Fefonz Quan: second arabella in that question
Pema Pera nods at Geo
Geo Netizen: It is a little more comples than that Arabella
Pila Mulligan: and at the end of the first quarter the scroe is Buddhists 2, Catholics 1
Solobill Laville: lol
Geo Netizen: Many priests are not good at clarifying the complexities :))
Geo Netizen: about sex that is
arabella Ella: nods
arabella Ella: don't i know it
arabella Ella: too many variations
Pema Pera: :)
Solobill Laville is laughing
Mickorod Renard: Without feeling overinflated,,since understanding the concept of doing the right thing,,I have become much lighter or unleaden
Pema Pera: yes, love can never be a burden . . . .
Mickorod Renard: exactly
Fefonz Quan: can you clarify more about those complexities geo?
Geo Netizen: As an example, a woman may have had a hysterectomy and the married couple may still have a sexual relation
Geo Netizen: Just one example
arabella Ella: but Geo that is such a drastic example
Fefonz Quan: what is that hysteric word?
arabella Ella: only applicable to few
Geo Netizen: The intimacy of sexual love in marriage is an intrinsic good.
arabella Ella: and that situation can create relationship problems too
arabella Ella: hysterectomies i mean
Geo Netizen: That is just a clear example where procreation is not possible but sex is not just permitted but is considered good

Being still touched by the simple beauty of Geo's opening statement I find myself a little impatient that we are becoming boggged down in details of thye rights and wrongs of sexual behavior but Geo and Pema remind of another more subtle kind of compassion. To give a bit of full disclosure myself, I was raised in the American Evangelical version of the Lutheran Church. I too have long since drifted away but retain the same stubborn resisteance to ecclesiastical authority, especially the arrogant kind. At the time there were no Bishops in the American Lutheran version and as soon as one of the Presidents of the local synods became a little too "puffed up" he was voted out (not yet any she's then). Same with ministers...the congregations decided on their spiritual leader and the individual churches could be a cantankerous bunch. So anyway, I have my prejudices concerning religious leaders. But the prejudice in this case was blinding me to the rules issue existing in its own right.

Adams Rubble: When comparing traditions, it seems such a dstraction to get into discussions of what are basically hierarchical institutions which are so far from the essence of the simple points Geo made in his summary
Pema Pera: yes
Geo Netizen: Yes but .....
Pila Mulligan: sexuality is such a politically and comercially charged topic it can be dificult to embrace in the context of ethics
Fefonz Quan: i would find this is a clear example of cruel attitude to women...
Geo Netizen: my experience is that most people what to know how
Pema Pera: except Adams, if you are part of the church under that institution, as Arabella is
Geo Netizen: these general ideas should play out
Geo Netizen: in their lives in specifics
Geo Netizen: What does this mean to ME
arabella Ella: yes but ... it is very difficult to deal with in practical terms
arabella Ella: especially as a female
Pila Mulligan: and especially when we start with the idea that god is love
Geo Netizen: Ok -the man is found to be impotent -. sex by the married couple is still good
Geo Netizen: This would be another example
arabella Ella: yes as i find a difficult contradiction between the belief that God is Love yet sex outside marriage or not for procreation under normal circumstances is not allowed
Fefonz Quan: i think a main issue here is the diffference between religion institutions and religions core
Pila Mulligan: rules and ends, Fefonz?
arabella Ella: i also find the attitude towards women rather difficult to swallow
Fefonz Quan: power and spirituality Pila
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: maybe the point is,,what harm may be produced by sex outside marriage
Fefonz Quan: guess what is more common
arabella Ella: thanks to the stereotype we attribute to Eve females are considered temptresses
Geo Netizen: My experience of sex outside of marriage it that is seems to frequently generate bad karma
Mickorod Renard: thats my point Geo
Fefonz Quan: or generate happy mariage Geo?
Wol Euler: sex in parallel to one or more marriages certainly seems to
Geo Netizen: and that health marriages have good sex
Fefonz Quan: (before was the meaning)
arabella Ella disagrees as many people do not even marry today in the western world ... do they therefore all live with bad karma?

Pila lightens the discussion

Pila Mulligan: sex is the bubblegum on the wheel of karma
Geo Netizen nods
Mickorod Renard: what i mean is outside thier own marriages,,or,,without intention of commitment
Fefonz Quan object Pila
Wol Euler: sorry, I was being unclear. the point of "sex in marriage" is monogamy, not the signing of a license
arabella Ella: bubblegum? what do you mean Pila? sticky point?
Pila Mulligan: not that it cannot alos be liberating Fefonz :)
Geo Netizen nods towards Wol
Pema Pera is quietly leaving, since it is 8 am and he will accumulate bad karma by not going to his RL brunch appointment -- aka making his spouse unhappy :-)
Pila Mulligan: it was a joke actually, but a menaingful one
Wol Euler: :)

Pema is the first to depart as the first hour is up

Wol Euler: bye pema, take care
Solobill Laville: Thanks, Pema
Adams Rubble: bye Pema.. thanks
Mickorod Renard: yes Wol,,either monoigomy or a commitment towards monogamy
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema
Geo Netizen: Bye Pema
Fefonz Quan: bye Pema
arabella Ella: bye Pema
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
Mickorod Renard: bye Pema
Pila Mulligan: don;t have eggs Benedict
Mickorod Renard: greaT TOPIC
arabella Ella: Geo ... to compensate for my questions ... my late uncle was a franciscan monk and he was the most lovable person ever
Pema Pera: bye everybody, don't let me break up the party. Thank you so much Geo for such a direct pointer to what it is that moves you -- and that thus can ove us all, independent of hierarchical power considerations!
Pema Pera: *move us all
Fefonz Quan feels that ignoring/avoiding sex is like avoiding anyother part of being
Solobill Laville: Geo, can I ask a non-sex question?
Wol Euler laughs
Mickorod Renard: grin
arabella Ella: or scheduling sex to a few days a month ... ouch
Geo Netizen nods
Fefonz Quan: is it like non-time approach?
stevenaia Michinaga: are there ones?

Solobill puts the need for rules in Buddhist terms

Solobill Laville: If I may offer this: in Buddhism, ethical conduct is often considered a natural occurence stemming from a more "awakened awareness", the rules (precepts) were created more for specific transgressions of the monkhood and later, lay folks. This seems very akin to what you said earlier in terms of Franciscan theology, do you agree, Geo?
Geo Netizen: Yes
Solobill Laville: ok, thx
Adams Rubble: :)
Pila Mulligan: so ethics follow heaven
Pila Mulligan: metaphorically
Geo Netizen: The awareness for us the awareness of the divine love
Solobill Laville: yes, cause and effect as one really
Pila Mulligan: Geo, can I ask a hard question?
Solobill Laville smiles at his easy question
Geo Netizen: When did anyone feel constrained to ask Geo hard questions :)

...and then to images

Pila Mulligan: if god is love, why do we need a diety image?
Solobill Laville: (Because bubblegum is delicious)
Wol Euler: (I looked up Adam' reference to 1 Corinthians 13, btw, it's about the rightness of right actions, in particular about charity: giving money is not a right action if it is done with an angry and uncompassionate heart)
arabella Ella: thanks Wol
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: (somewhat simplified :)
Geo Netizen: By image .... do you mean the Michelangelo type image
Pila Mulligan: yes, Geo
Geo Netizen: Many do not need such an image
arabella Ella: or do you mean the concept Pila?
Adams Rubble: To clarify Wol's clarification...Love is most important
Pila Mulligan: well, both in a sense
Pila Mulligan: the figurehead image
Fefonz Quan: Wol, the buddhists say the same about actions, those that are not followed by right thought/intention won't bring good karma
Wol Euler nods. exactly.
Geo Netizen: Only the second person of the trinity actually has such a form
Fefonz Quan: and the other way around, actions gone wrong mistakenly are not so bad as we perceieve them
Geo Netizen: and raising the trinity brings up a whole new topic that can take a good hour or more :)
Solobill Laville: This leads to the question of a distinction betweed "God" and "Godhead", yes?
Pila Mulligan: :)

Soon others begin to depart Sophia, Scath and then Mick

sophia Placebo: g2g , nice topic and discussion :)
Pila Mulligan: not to mention demons :)
Solobill Laville: Bye, Sophia
Geo Netizen: Bye Sophia
Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care.
Fefonz Quan: bye sophia
Pila Mulligan: bye Sophia
Mickorod Renard: bye sophia
sophia Placebo: bye all
Adams Rubble: bye Sophia
Pila Mulligan: demons are another common image here, -- maybe another time :)
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, see you all later, namasté
Pila Mulligan: bye SCathach
Wol Euler: bye scath, enjoy your saturday
Geo Netizen: Bye Scathach
Solobill Laville: Bye, Scath!
Fefonz Quan: bye scat
Adams Rubble: bye Scath :)
Mickorod Renard: bye scath
Fefonz Quan: i think there is some destinction with karma/sin
Solobill Laville: Geo, this is a wonderful venue for this; as a Buddhist in the US Midwest (raised agnostic) it really helps me to speak similarities with the locals...
Fefonz Quan: where in sin itseems like somebody else outside of you is judging you
Geo Netizen smiles at Solo
Mickorod Renard: gotta go folks,,LOVE to you all,,thankyou
Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
Wol Euler: bye mick, take care
Geo Netizen: Bye Mick
Fefonz Quan: bye Mick ;)
Solobill Laville: Thanks for hosting, Mick
arabella Ella: bye Mick
Adams Rubble: bye Mick :)
Pila Mulligan: aloha
arabella Ella: Geo if i may ask again ...
Geo Netizen nods to Arabella

and then Guilt

arabella Ella: different people seem to have different levels of guilt in their conscience
arabella Ella: like something which one may feel guilty about and think is a sin may not be considered so by another
arabella Ella: do you think this depends on our formation?
Geo Netizen: guilt that is just an awareness of movement away from love is a healthy guilt
Fefonz Quan considers guilt as a sin toward yourself mostly
Geo Netizen: There is unhealthy guilt
Geo Netizen: and I would say one's formation has a lot to do with it.
arabella Ella: such as?
arabella Ella: unhealthy?
arabella Ella: as guilt is equated to sin right?
Fefonz Quan: (what do we mean by formation?)
arabella Ella: upbringing
arabella Ella: including education
arabella Ella: formal and informal but mostly formal
Fefonz Quan: ok thanks
arabella Ella: there is a specific german word for it ... bildung
Geo Netizen: Perhaps you can think of an example of people moving towards this love yet feeling guilty
Fefonz Quan: well i thought one of the strongest formation we get is from our religious education
arabella Ella: yes
Fefonz Quan: (and hence guilt - mostly if you are jewish :))
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler grins
arabella Ella: and formation is often used by priests and monks for their seminarian training
Geo Netizen: eros is frequently involved in such cases of unhealthy guilt
arabella Ella: eros as in Love?
Geo Netizen: yes
arabella Ella: or as in a selfish and bad Love ... using Love in the wrong context?
Geo Netizen nods
Fefonz Quan: when looking at it, guilt is a powerful mechanism of control
Geo Netizen: yes
Geo Netizen: it can be
arabella Ella: yes

Steve Leaves

stevenaia Michinaga: bye all, thank you
Adams Rubble: bye Steve
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
Solobill Laville: Bye, Steve
Fefonz Quan: bye steve
Geo Netizen: but such control is actually moving away from this love
Geo Netizen: bye Steve
Wol Euler: bye steve

We return back to the common themes of the different traditions

arabella Ella: one thing I dream of Geo ... the effort by all major religions to look for similarities rather than differences
arabella Ella: resolving differences rather than creating them
Adams Rubble: yes!
arabella Ella: and using Love to unite different religions
Geo Netizen: I do hope that is what we have done here today :))
Wol Euler: it's happeing, I believe.
Solobill Laville: Yes indeed - it takes people like Geo to be willing to do so :)
Fefonz Quan: good thought and idea ara
arabella Ella: as God is certainly God for ALL people regardless of faith
Geo Netizen nods
Solobill Laville: Yes, Arabella
Adams Rubble: The sets of rules are a main difference :)
Fefonz Quan: (too many jobs at risk with that endeavor, that's the catch0
Wol Euler: :)
Geo Netizen: Thank you all for your wonderfully energetic and insightful participation
arabella Ella: yes Fefonz and unfortunately humanly motivated power strugggles too
arabella Ella: last comment if i may geo
Solobill Laville: Geo, is this something to be on-going??
Adams Rubble: Geo, thank you for your moving summary
Wol Euler: I was thinking of a metaphor for this while in the kitchen just now: belief is an internal combustion engine, religion is drivers' licenses and the rules of the road and biannual vehicle inspections ...
Geo Netizen nods thinking ......
Pila Mulligan: BMW?
Wol Euler: maybe that's a bit contrived

Franciscans and Technology

arabella Ella: i recently saw the franciscans on TV using the tube in NYC to meet people and try to increase vocations ... brilliant idea
Fefonz Quan: nice metaphor wol
Geo Netizen: Franciscans are all crazy :))
Wol Euler: but at least they know it!
arabella Ella: yes in Italy the franciscans have famous rock bands too often on TV too
Pila Mulligan: St Francis remiknds me of Ganesh for some reason
Fefonz Quan: the nose Pila :)
Adams Rubble: It is the connections with animals maybe Pila?
Solobill Laville: Now there's a talk topic...
Pila Mulligan: :)

Solobill leaves but his statement makes everyone think Geo is leaving

Solobill Laville: Thanks Geo, thanks all!
Pila Mulligan: thanks Geo
Fefonz Quan: thanks Geo
arabella Ella: at least franciscans are crazy in a charasmatic way
Wol Euler: bye solo, take care, enjoy the day
Geo Netizen nods
arabella Ella: bye Solo
Adams Rubble: Yes, this has been a truly inspiring session
Pila Mulligan: bye Solo
Fefonz Quan: bye sol
Adams Rubble: bye Bill :)
Wol Euler: thank you Geo, that was very good.
Geo Netizen: I hope everyone has a great weekend
Pila Mulligan: are you a monk Geo?
arabella Ella: yes thank you so much Geo for all your patience with us
Geo Netizen: and we all generate lots of good karma :)
Wol Euler: :)
Adams Rubble: You too Geo:)
Geo Netizen: I am a secular monk
Wol Euler: and do plenty of Right Actions.
Pila Mulligan: ahh, thanks
Geo Netizen smiles
arabella Ella: secular?
Geo Netizen: google up SFO .... and I am not married and live conventually :)
arabella Ella: does secular mean you have not taken the three votes?
Geo Netizen: that the short answer to 'secular?' :)
arabella Ella: chastity, poverty and obediance
Pila Mulligan: vows?
Geo Netizen: Yes .... no vows .... but a profession
arabella Ella: sorry ... vows ... that was a literal translation from my language
Pila Mulligan: Freudianmaybe
Pila Mulligan: votes
arabella Ella: well we say 'voti' similar to italian
arabella Ella: which means vows
Wol Euler: "votive candles" and the like...
arabella Ella: yes Wol
Pila Mulligan: so what do Francsicans do for fun?
Wol Euler: hang about in SL!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Geo Netizen: Talk about love :)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Fefonz Quan: talk Franch?
Pila Mulligan: same a as Buddhists :)
Geo Netizen chuckles
arabella Ella: they definitely help the needy
Fefonz Quan: buddhist can do tantra pila :)
Pila Mulligan: now there's a topic
arabella Ella smiles
Fefonz Quan: in fact buddhist can have sex if lay man and not monks
arabella Ella: oh so chastity is involved there too
Pila Mulligan: Buddhists a re very smart

Women as Spiritual Leaders

arabella Ella: and buddhists also have female monks dont they
arabella Ella: i have seen some in thailand
Fefonz Quan: yes, i met some
Geo Netizen still thinks sex outside a real committed relationshops is full of problems :))
Pila Mulligan: that was the downfall of the most successful intentional community in history -- the Shakers
Pila Mulligan: they were celibate
Adams Rubble: There are women priests and ministers in much of Chrostianity
arabella Ella: yes
Fefonz Quan: the milkshakers?
Wol Euler: and for that matter women rabbis too.
Adams Rubble: yes
Pila Mulligan: the Shaker community
arabella Ella: catholicism also has female ministers now but no monks or priests yet ... females
Fefonz Quan: yes, only in reform judaism wol
arabella Ella: and i personally think celibacy is on way out as even catholics now have a few married priests who moved from church of england when they accepted female priests
Wol Euler smiles and shakes her head. I think personally that what (1) consenting (2) adults do (3) in private, is nobody's business but their own.

...and then Geo departs as everyone thinks about Wol's statement above

Geo Netizen: Please excuse me "I have to go" again a most enjoyable discussion
Wol Euler: bye geo, enjoy the day.
Wol Euler: and thanks again
arabella Ella: bye Geo thank you so much
Pila Mulligan: bye Geo, thanks again
Fefonz Quan: bye geo
Adams Rubble: Thank you again Geo. Bye :)
Fefonz Quan: agree with wol
arabella Ella: and Wol I agree with you on that 100 percent
arabella Ella: only i would add ... as long as no one gets hurt
Fefonz Quan: coming back to karma, still anything you do, private or not, will effect you in the future
Wol Euler: right, which is where it gets tricky.
Wol Euler: (to both :)
arabella Ella: yes
Fefonz Quan: it has nice description from the mind and consciousness point of view,
Pila Mulligan: it affects you n the present too Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: the word affect points to the futurep pila

Adelene joins us while I am busy recounting Stims thoughts on taking positive energy from one moment into the next as a basic form of karma

Adams Rubble: Coming back to karma, there is something that Stim said that I can't help thinking is relevant
Fefonz Quan: ;)
Pila Mulligan: hi Ade
Wol Euler: hello ade
Fefonz Quan: hey Ade.,
arabella Ella: hiya Adelene
Adelene Dawner: 'morning all :)
Adams Rubble: If we live in the moment...
Adams Rubble: there are positive and negative energies
Adams Rubble: In each monet we have a choice
Adams Rubble: Of holding on to the positive energy
Wol Euler smiles quietly at "monet", an art historian's slip :)
Adams Rubble: or the negative energy and taking that into the next moment

A rude person passes through and Wol ejects them while commenting on my slip

Adams Rubble: for me that is karma in its purest sense
Adams Rubble: from moment to moment
Fefonz Quan nods
arabella Ella nods
Adams Rubble: egads Wol....Yes!
Adams Rubble: Hi Adelene :)
Wol Euler: dj just learned some karma: interrupt with an arseholeish remark, get ejected
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fefonz Quan: :)

Arabella goes and we discuss the iron fist of ejection

arabella Ella: i must go now bye everyone!
Pila Mulligan: bye arabella
Wol Euler: bye ara, take care.
Adams Rubble: bye Arabella, thanks :)
Fefonz Quan: bye ara
arabella Ella: thanks to all of you too for a very interesting session :)
Pila Mulligan: I agree Adams -- moment to omment is where its at
Fefonz Quan: wol, can you eject someone in purppose?
Wol Euler: oh yes!
Wol Euler grins
Fefonz Quan: cool!
Wol Euler: can and do.
Adams Rubble: or without a purpose :)
Wol Euler: when it is a right action.
Wol Euler: when the Tao speaks.
Adams Rubble: :)
Fefonz Quan: i knew it's good being on your side Wol ;)
Wol Euler: I only use my powers for Good.
Adams Rubble: We all have the power here Fefonz
Pila Mulligan: and the spirit
Adams Rubble: Rarely is it needed
Pila Mulligan: rememebring an earlier comment
Fefonz Quan hasitate to ask, with great power comes great responsiibility :)

I too have to go and come back and check from time to time while the session continues; a visitor arrives as I am leaving; Fefonz follows soon too

Adams Rubble: yes, we wouldn't want lots of avatar bodies hanging in the trees surrounding us :)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Wol Euler: hello Visitor
Adams Rubble: I have to go away but I am guardian so I am going to stay parked here
Adams Rubble: bye everyone if you leave before I come back :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Adams
Wol Euler: we promise not to hang christmas decorations from your ears and nose :)
Adams Rubble: haha
Wol Euler: bye adams' typist!
Adams Rubble: or eject me?
Fefonz Quan: me too, bye all, it was a good one ;)
Pila Mulligan: bye Fefonz
Wol Euler: bye fefonz, enjoy your saturaday.
Adams Rubble: bye fefonz
Fefonz Quan: bye all _/!\_
Pila Mulligan: well, that was fun
Visitor: hello
Pila Mulligan: how are you Visitor?
Wol Euler: born today! welcome to second life
Wol Euler: right-click on a cushion and select "sit" to join us
Wol Euler: or not

Religious Leanings

Pila Mulligan: are you anything in terms of religion Wol --as in a memebr of one?
Wol Euler: definitely not a member of any religion.
Pila Mulligan: me too
Wol Euler: I am finding significant overlaps between my beliefs and many religions
Wol Euler: but on the whole I agree with Marx that the function of organized religion is to protect and entrench power structures
Pila Mulligan: :) the opiate
Wol Euler: true as hell.
Wol Euler: so to speak
Pila Mulligan: it is funnny how people tend to say I'm and Z, with wthout X Y and W
Wol Euler: I was talking with that in IM with Solo earlier, how to "display" our beliefs as they overlap on religions' systems
Wol Euler: maybe a multiaxis graph ...
Pila Mulligan: :)
Visitor: alguno habla español
Adelene Dawner: Why?
Pila Mulligan: no habla ale
Wol Euler: sorry, no.
Wol Euler: because it is not linear. I am fairly close to christianity and to buddhism, I could not position myself accurately on a slider between them
Pila Mulligan: why express it at all may be Ade's point
Wol Euler: imagine a slider with two indicators, both near their respective ends :)
Adelene Dawner nods at Pila
Wol Euler: ah, just out of idle curiosity .)
Adelene Dawner: or 'why are those the scales to measure by'
Pila Mulligan: plus, graphics are fun
Wol Euler: yep!
Adelene Dawner: :)
Wol Euler: there was a great dilbert a few days ago, lemme find it
Pila Mulligan: the traditions are full of rich images that are being whittled away by their adherents
Visitor: no inglis si español
Adelene Dawner: When I have to answer that kind of question - not uncommon when I worked in the nursing home - I go with non-practicing unitarian universalist. Makes me grin if nothing else :)
Wol Euler: http://www.dilbert.com/2009-03-07/
Wol Euler: Visitor, I have a translator
Wol Euler: nobody here speaks spanish as a native, sorry.
Wol Euler: if you use the "search" button, you can find spanish-speaking communities
Visitor: no hablo inglis yes español

Meanwhile Adelene brings out her board and begins to draw

Pila Mulligan: nice cartoon Ade :)
Adelene Dawner whispers to Pila "that was Wol"
Visitor: ???
Visitor: no inglis yes español
Pila Mulligan: :) nice cartoon Wol
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: glad you liked it.
Wol Euler: appropriate to the moment
Adelene Dawner is having trouble getting it to load. :P
Wol Euler: our meetings are held in english only, sorry to say. Nobody inthe group speaks spanish
Wol Euler: I don't know why we have so many spanish-speakers drifting through lately.
Wol Euler: maybe we are on a list somewhere?
Pila Mulligan: maybe it is a fad among friends
Pila Mulligan: rl buddies
Wol Euler: yah, who can get ejected the fastest?
Pila Mulligan: did you get dj?
Wol Euler: yep
Pila Mulligan: me too :)
Pila Mulligan: always wnated to do that
Wol Euler: and Otherperson twice. He is a real slow learner.

And they leave for me me some editing directions

Wol Euler: adams, you'll remove all of these names right?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler gigles
Wol Euler: hope she reads the log before publishing it
Pila Mulligan: maybe we should turn the recorder off?
Wol Euler: sure
Wol Euler: actually no
Wol Euler: leave it running. Adams has trouble getting IMed when it stops, I want to watch that happening (as it were)
Pila Mulligan: ahh

Last night's drawing session is brought up

Adelene Dawner: You missed a good session last night Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: what was the topic?
Pila Mulligan: if any :)
Adelene Dawner: There wasn't one :) and no text log will be posted :D
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Pila Mulligan: oh, sounds quite interesting
Wol Euler: brb, rl calls
Pila Mulligan: ok
Adelene Dawner: It was an impromptu trial run of a new format I'm thinking of trying every week: Free Draw Friday :D
Pila Mulligan: how does it work?
Adelene Dawner: (hold on - inventory issue)
Pila Mulligan: ok
Adams Rubble checks in and says "Wow you are all still here"
Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
Pila Mulligan: note Wol's comment above baout editting please :)
Pila Mulligan: [8:58] Wol Euler: adams, you'll remove all of these names right? [8:58] Pila Mulligan: :) [8:58] Wol Euler gigles [8:58] Wol Euler: hope she reads the log before publishing it
Adelene Dawner: This is a late alpha script - it's relatively bugless, but it's not got all its features yet, so be patient with it :)
Pila Mulligan: cool
Adelene Dawner: :D
Pila Mulligan: ow does it work?
Pila Mulligan: fun
Adelene Dawner: color selection is on the bottom, tool selection's on the side, and it should be pretty intuitive past that - click and drag or just click repeatedly depending on the tool :)

I check in while Pila learns to use Adelene's Board

Adams Rubble: Yes...Adams reads logs carefully before posting
Wol Euler: back
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adams Rubble: Now back to the Chronicles....
Pila Mulligan: welcome back Wol and Adams
Pila Mulligan: WOl: [9:04] Adams Rubble: Yes...Adams reads logs carefully before posting
Adams Rubble: bfn...will be checking back in
Adelene Dawner: :)
Pila Mulligan: bye
Wol Euler: :)
Pila Mulligan: this is your script Ade?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: impressive :)
Wol Euler grins broadly.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: All the more so because that's the point it was at less than 48 hours after I started working on it :)
Wol Euler: O.O
Pila Mulligan: wow
Wol Euler <- impressed.
Adelene Dawner: And you haven't tried all the tools yet :)
Adelene Dawner: yes Wol, I'm very fast when interested in somethng :D
Pila Mulligan: way cool Ade :)
Wol Euler: ooooh
Wol Euler: that is interesintg.
Pila Mulligan: oops, off the table :)
Adelene Dawner: (yes, circles are bugged. That's mostly fixed in the current version)
Wol Euler: at an angle to the table too!
Adelene Dawner: yep, that's the fixed part.
Adelene Dawner: the other isn't so much a bug as a design flaw :)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: I suppose you could clip it where it overlaps the table bounds...
Wol Euler: ... or just say WTH
Pila Mulligan: wheree are the tools?
Adelene Dawner: along the side - they're lebeled with floating text 'till I can get Three to make me some icons
Pila Mulligan: oh, I see
Wol Euler: nice
Adelene Dawner: Wol, re: circles
Wol Euler: mm?
Adelene Dawner: right now you click in the center and drag to an edge
Wol Euler: yeah, I gathered.
Adelene Dawner: I thought that'd be intuitive - I like it in MS paint - but it's really not
Wol Euler nods
Wol Euler: I expected taht it would be a diameter actually, edge to edge
Adelene Dawner: so I'm going to change it that you drag from one edge to the other and it puts the center in between those points
Wol Euler: right
Adelene Dawner: which means by definition that the edges will be on the board.
Wol Euler: um, no, I might draw parallel to the top edge, just below it
Adelene Dawner is not *quite* awake yet
Adelene Dawner: that, true, Wol.
Pila Mulligan: what a fun thing
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Wol Euler: maybe this is a philosophical isue, ade: maybe a virtual board has virtual edges?
Wol Euler: i.e. let it overlap and fly free
Adelene Dawner: yeah, Wol - I'm not going to try too hard to fix the edge thing, I think.
Wol Euler: me nods
Adelene Dawner: It won't be so unintentional with the new way :)
Wol Euler: damned fine piece of work, ade.
Adelene Dawner: btw Pila: see the three white balls in the lower left?
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ @ Wol
Adelene Dawner: those balls are the line weight selector - click the top to make it smaller, the bottom to make it bigger
Pila Mulligan: ok, thanks
Adelene Dawner: :)
Wol Euler: this looks like the cave art at Lescaux or Altamira
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adelene Dawner: Interesting to see everybody's styles of drawing ^.^
Adelene Dawner: (I assume that's you playing, Pila)
Wol Euler: not me :)
Adams Rubble: Ooooh a slide show :)
Adelene Dawner: heee, not quite!
Pila Mulligan: an art work in progress Adams
Wol Euler: yeah, need a save and replay feature!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adelene Dawner: *no* Wol :)
Wol Euler: a framegrabber
Wol Euler: awwwwww
Adams Rubble: checking in is like a 9 second stop :)
Adams Rubble: bfn
Adelene Dawner: we're up to 260+ prims on that already and I'm surprised it's not more.
Wol Euler: wow
Adelene Dawner: yeah
Wol Euler: ok, that is already beyond what you can link into a single object.
Adelene Dawner: yep
Adelene Dawner: best I expect to be able to do is link each brushstroke as a single object (still potentially impossible for long/complex strokes but that should be rare)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: OTOH if it isn't saveable or takeable, why link at all?
Wol Euler: editing, duh. scrub that.
Wol Euler: you'd want to move or delete or recolour the whole complex objevt
Wol Euler: looks Australian Aboriginal now :)
Adelene Dawner: actually the way I intend to do post-draw editing works just as well without linking - it's a bit clunky but not as inconvenient as having to wait for the set to link up (I've tried)
Wol Euler: ade, you are positively frightening when you get the bit between your teeth.
Adelene Dawner grins toothily :)
Pila Mulligan: well, this is as much fun as sin and klarma
Adelene Dawner: :)
Adelene Dawner: I need to figure out who to ask for permission (Pila? Post to the email group? Don't bother asking at all?) but I think it'd be neat as a regular Friday thing to have like 10 of these set up and just draw and take pics all evening :)
Pila Mulligan: yep
Adelene Dawner: Pema
Pila Mulligan: permission?
Adelene Dawner: not Pila
Adelene Dawner: er
Adelene Dawner is not *really* awake yet?
Adelene Dawner: hehe
Pila Mulligan: why not just do it?
Wol Euler chuckles and scritches your ears
Wol Euler: pema and storm, I'd guess; pema as group leader figure and storm as landowner
Adelene Dawner: 'cept Pema doesn't want to be the group leader and Storm seems not to like me - I expect he'd say no :(
Pila Mulligan: the sun has just started to appear here, speaking if awake :)
Wol Euler: :(
Pila Mulligan: didn't you already do it, last nite?
Wol Euler: I think he doesn't like anyone placing anything in his playgoda
Wol Euler: he objected to Moon#s christmas decorations too
Adelene Dawner: Well yes. But as a regular 'program' it's a bit different, I think?
Pila Mulligan: maybe start by having it at a non-Pab hour?
Adelene Dawner: Might be ok so long as I make sure to clean up promptly.
Pila Mulligan: likt 6 instead of 7
Wol Euler: pre-pab
Adelene Dawner hmms
Pila Mulligan: warmup :)
Adelene Dawner: :D
Adelene Dawner: 'cept then I'd have to drag people away for PaB
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: my guess is people will like to play with this
Wol Euler: oh yes
Adelene Dawner: (are you calling that done, Pila?)
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: finis
Wol Euler: damn right squee.
Pila Mulligan: pau
Pila Mulligan: pau = finished
Wol Euler: how many prims is that, Ade?
Pila Mulligan: thanks Ade
Adelene Dawner: 473 in just the drawing.
Pila Mulligan: spacey art :)
Adelene Dawner: :D
Wol Euler: phone brb
Pila Mulligan: title: 'Secret Paths Thtough the Galaxies"
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pila Mulligan: what fun :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pila Mulligan: well, I guess I will prepare for the day in RL now -- thanks for the play tmne Ade
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ Glad you enjoyed it ^.^
Pila Mulligan: me too
Pila Mulligan: aloha, and aloha to Wol and Adams when they are back
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: I guess I'll clean this up and get back home to my scripts :)

I come back in time to just miss Pila leaving; Adelene gives us photos of his drawings and Wol offers atechnical tip on inworld snapshots; I learn how to save in jpegs

Adams Rubble: Bye Pila
Adams Rubble: whoops one sec too late
Wol Euler: back,
Wol Euler: ty for the pix, ade
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adams Rubble: yes, thanks Ade
Wol Euler: oh btw, I discovered something very useful about snapshots inworld
Wol Euler: it is possible to get a non-distorted snapshot!
Adelene Dawner: oh?
Adams Rubble: tell us wise one
Wol Euler: if you choose "current window", then it takes a picture of your viewer portal
Wol Euler: which is say 1182 x 826
Wol Euler: and compresses this into 512x512
Wol Euler: because SL only believes in squares.
Adams Rubble: yes?
Wol Euler: so: in the snapshot dialog, choose for "size" not "current window" but "large"
Wol Euler: (only applies to images saved to inventory, btw)
Adams Rubble: I stretch them in photoshop at present
Wol Euler: (saving to disk is real-size and real proportion)
Adelene Dawner: Awesome, Wol :D
Wol Euler: but they get squished into squares if you bring them from disk in-world again
Adams Rubble: yes
Wol Euler: it's a kludge, I would personally say.
Adams Rubble: my goodness I just expanded the "more" and we can do jpegs
Adams Rubble: do you mean choose "custom"
Adams Rubble: I don't see large
Wol Euler: choose first "save to inventory"
Wol Euler: then that is available
Wol Euler: ("destination", up top)
Adams Rubble: ah, I see...so it only takes a part of the picture then?
Wol Euler: in effect, yes. it crops your viewer to a square
Wol Euler: no different from using a camera viewfinder in RL, really :)
Adams Rubble: good thing to know oh wise master of technical stuff
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler has too much spare time
Adelene Dawner: hehe
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: It is neat finding out two helpful things...sometimes it is a mtter of seeing :)

I start to go and Wol stops me so we can review the problems I am having receiving logs from Master Listener. Adelene slips away somewhere here

Adams Rubble pushes back to the Chronicles
Wol Euler: stop!
Wol Euler: still here?
Wol Euler: ach, missed her again.
Adams Rubble: here I am, yes?
Adams Rubble: Wol?
Wol Euler: ok
Wol Euler: let's try to have you take the session, see if you get an IM
Wol Euler: do nothing yet
Wol Euler: does it work properly if you are still in world when it ends?
Adams Rubble: just tell me what to do step by step
Wol Euler: I'm trying to figure out what you usually do :)
Wol Euler: to see where the problem might lie.
Adams Rubble: I usually claim it and go away
Wol Euler: ok
Wol Euler: so it ends in your absence.
Adams Rubble: yes
Wol Euler: are you usually still in.world when it ends?
Adams Rubble: awlays outside because I have never gotten an inworld message
Adams Rubble: unless it didn't send me that either
Wol Euler: do you get messages outside though?
Adams Rubble: Once in a while but most of the times not
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Wol Euler: and (forgive me) you did check all seventeen computers and eight SL accounts, that the e-mail addresses were the same and correct? :)
Adams Rubble giggles
Adams Rubble: It has only been with this avatar
Adams Rubble: tell me what you want me to check with this computer
Wol Euler: okay, but you do use many computers for SL'ing.
Wol Euler: let's try it in stages. Leave the listener running and go to your house, please.
Wol Euler: when you get there I will stop it.
Adams Rubble: Yes. I have an old and new laptop and one desktop
Wol Euler: which are you using right now?
Adams Rubble: my beach house?
Adams Rubble: I am on the new laptop
Wol Euler: okay, noted.
Adams Rubble: actually it is on me :)
Wol Euler: :)
Adams Rubble giggles
Adams Rubble can get silly about technology
Wol Euler: ok, could you go t your beach house please? we'll switch to IM
Wol Euler: I'll stop it when you get there
Adams Rubble: OK, thanks for your patience :)
Wol Euler: yw, I want this solved too

And so Wol did..at least for this time. This is the log from Master Listener with my comments