2009.03.23 19:00 - what is transhuman; the nature of suffering

The Guardian for this meeting was Threedee Shepherd. The comments are by Threedee Shepherd.

Adelene Dawner: Hi, Steve!
Peer Infinity: hi :)
Metafire Horsley: hi steve
Adelene Dawner: Oh, I bet Steve and Peer are going to get along *great*. Watch out, Peer, Steve's got the mind of a 16 year old. ;D
stevenaia Michinaga: must have drank to much, seeing pink bunnies
Metafire Horsley: :D
Peer Infinity: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: wait, I typed that before I read that
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hey, Stevie
Adelene Dawner: *giggles*
Peer Infinity: ooh, an autologging prim...
stevenaia Michinaga: hi corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Peer, we have several talented scripters in the group and we worked together to build the autologging system. :)
Threedee Shepherd: did i miss anything, yet?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: not yet
Adelene Dawner: Nope, Luv. :)
stevenaia Michinaga: why do I feel out of place tonight, corvi?
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..you need Wol's tag
Adelene Dawner: *giggles*
Corvuscorva Nightfire: "token human"
Metafire Horsley: Where did that lion come from?
stevenaia Michinaga: animal types 4, human types 2
Metafire Horsley: animals win :D
Corvuscorva Nightfire: so....Metafire and Peer...we record these sessions and post them on the wiki that Adelene sent you earlier.
Metafire Horsley: cool
Corvuscorva Nightfire: would you mind if we posted what you said here?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: we gotta ask for the record.
Metafire Horsley: Well ok. I am not going to stay long.
Threedee Shepherd: Hi again, Peer, hello meta
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks.
stevenaia Michinaga: Meta, very cool typing assist screens
Metafire Horsley: Will other people come to this meeting?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Peer, Meta..this is Stevie and Three.
Metafire Horsley: thx
Threedee Shepherd: perhaps
Threedee Shepherd: perhaps others will, never know
Threedee Shepherd: given this meets 1,7,1,7 daily
Adelene Dawner: btw Peer and Meta, if you don't like that pose you can click the cushion for a different one.
stevenaia Michinaga: nice to meet you, are you Corvi;s friends?
Metafire Horsley: Well I am in the order of cosmic engineers. Not too active yet there.
Adelene Dawner: We were invited to Arisia's transhuman/singularity discussion hour and picked them up there. :)
stevenaia Michinaga: sorry I missed it
stevenaia Michinaga: giggles
Adelene Dawner: Mondays at 3pm slt ^.^
Peer Infinity: yes, it's okay for you to post my chat text online
Peer Infinity: the OCE weekly meetings are sundays at 10:00 AM SLT
Threedee Shepherd: a serious question, why "trans"-human as just opposed to differently human?
Adelene Dawner: trans sounds cooler, and also implies intention
Adelene Dawner: eg: autistics are 'differently human' than NTs... but not transhuman.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello aurel and Solo
aurel Miles: Hello
Metafire Horsley: yeah, it implies the will to achieve a higher state than the current coniditio humana.
Solobill Laville: Hello! :)
Metafire Horsley: Hi Solobill!
Threedee Shepherd: what do I need to add, prosthetically, to become transhuman?
Peer Infinity: the transhumanist movement is in the middle of a rebranding process, actually. They're trying to change the name to "Humanity Plus" :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hey Bill!
Metafire Horsley: I think that's a cheap marketing trick.
Solobill Laville: Hiya, Corvi :)
Adelene Dawner: To answer your question, Three, an implanted computer of some kind comes to mind.
Adelene Dawner: Though as I mentioned before, I don't see why 'implanted' is the relevant dividing line.
Threedee Shepherd: what about a computer-chip controlled prosthetic arm?
Metafire Horsley: Yeah, the term "interconnection" of the human brain with digital computing power would be a more general expression.
Metafire Horsley: It's so silent now. Are all people thinking deeply? :)
Solobill Laville: :)
aurel Miles: for me, it means i am not sure what you have been discussing
Adelene Dawner doesn't have anything to add at the moment :)
aurel Miles: so i am whispering in class
aurel Miles: sorry
Corvuscorva Nightfire pokes Metafire.
Adelene Dawner: s'ok Aurel. :)
Metafire Horsley: I think we are discussion about the term transhumanism.
stevenaia Michinaga: it means my cat came between me and the keyboard
Metafire Horsley: And what it implies and where the borders are to just "humanism" or so.
Solobill Laville: hehe
aurel Miles: like
aurel Miles: cyborgs?
Threedee Shepherd: phone, just back...hi aurel and solo
aurel Miles: glasses - or transplant recipients?
Solobill Laville: Heya, 3D! :)
aurel Miles: Hi
Metafire Horsley: yeah, maybe non-transhumanistic humanists don't find cyborgs cool and that's basically the whole difference... *shrugs*
aurel Miles: i am not sure
aurel Miles: hmmm
aurel Miles: why does it matter?
Peer Infinity finally finds the link I was looking for: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/mi...manist-thanks/
aurel Miles: that's what i always wonder when i see these things
aurel Miles: why does it matter?
aurel Miles: if i could have my computer interface in my head somewhere - that would be convenient, i think i would get over my squeemishness in order to have the things i use the computer for at my fingertips
Adelene Dawner: Like I said before, I think we're already *there* - it mostly depends on how you define 'a person' - I can already interface with a machine to do tons of things I couldn't do otherwise, why does it mater that the machine in question is not part of my physical body?
aurel Miles: yeah
aurel Miles: i agree
aurel Miles: a person is their consciousness
Threedee Shepherd: trans (Latin): across, beyond. sound like it could apply to any human using technology
aurel Miles: when i was little, i used to look in the mirror and wonder why i saw me there and not somebody else
Metafire Horsley: The real quesition is how is "human" defined?
Threedee Shepherd: 46 chromosomes of a certain type
Adelene Dawner: Also 'technology'
Peer Infinity: actually, the important part isn't that the computer is embedded in your brain - the important part is that it makes you smarter than normal humans
Adelene Dawner: Like, why do computers count but not, say, a pair of scisors?
aurel Miles: define "normal"
Metafire Horsley: If you had seen someone else you wouldn't have been looking into a mirror... that's it.
Solobill Laville: yes, and the "ism" at the end of humanism suggests ethics and conduct of the individual, does that apply here?
Threedee Shepherd: as do eyeglasses, pencils, paper and shovels
Peer Infinity: "unaugmented"?
aurel Miles: i have fillings
stevenaia Michinaga: define smart
aurel Miles: therefore i am augmented
Peer Infinity: heh, I was afraid you would ask me to define those words :P
aurel Miles: i also wear clothes and carry a cell phone
Adelene Dawner: Heh, I have *shoes* therefore I am augmented. :)
stevenaia Michinaga: nothing gets by us
Peer Infinity: I agree though. pretty much everyone is augmented in some way
Peer Infinity: we're all "trans-simian" :)
aurel Miles: in film studies we call it Cyborg culture
aurel Miles: but it is the same thing
stevenaia Michinaga: can you augment conciousness?
aurel Miles: how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Metafire Horsley: I think it's all a question of what you regard as "normal", "human", "simian" or whatever.
aurel Miles: how many non-natal pieces does it take before you're not "normal"
aurel Miles: ?
Metafire Horsley: It's not possible to pinpoint that, because those terms are quite "liquid".
Adelene Dawner: Consciousness relates to awareness, very closely, and I wouldn't be aware of any of you if I wasn't augmented, so, yes. :)
Threedee Shepherd: there is a great video on YouTube of twins on each side of an open space in the wall of a public restroom acting as if there is a mirror there, but it doesn't work for the observers obviously.
Peer Infinity: personally, I don't bother worrying about these details :P
Peer Infinity: I just call myself a transhumanist because I don't place arbitrary restrictions on how much we're allowed to use to use technology to help people.
Adelene Dawner: I like that definition, Peer :)
Threedee Shepherd: who determines allowed?
Metafire Horsley: Politics I suppose.
Metafire Horsley: Does that blackboard over there actually work?
Adelene Dawner: Yep
Adelene Dawner: It's beta, though
Adelene Dawner: I'm not done with it yet
Threedee Shepherd: What is transhuman Also sounds alot like that famous quote "It depends what IS means."
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Adelene Dawner: There's a reason for the drawing :)
Adelene Dawner: It's a recreation of a diagram I saw once
Adelene Dawner: Red is 'things animals can do'
Peer Infinity: at first I thought it was a recreation of this diagram: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/mi...ism-its-small/
Adelene Dawner: Including things like 'breathe underwater', 'detect electricity' (sharks), 'see color' (some but not all animals)
Adelene Dawner: orange is things unaugmented humans can do
Adelene Dawner: yellow is things transhumans can/will be able to do
Adelene Dawner: green is things posthumans will be able to do
Peer Infinity: nice diagram :)
Metafire Horsley: yeah, it's nice.
Adelene Dawner: I found it interesting and usefulk, anyway
Metafire Horsley: It's late over here. I am tired. So I will leave this circle now.
aurel Miles: posthumans?
Peer Infinity: goodnight Metafire
Metafire Horsley: Goodbye.
Adelene Dawner: cya, Meta. Come back any time :)
aurel Miles: Goodnight
Solobill Laville: Bye, Meta
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. it was great to meet you.
Metafire Horsley: ok, I will :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Ade, what are the colored balls on the right for?
Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-human
Peer Infinity: hehe, Adelene was 2 seconds faster than me at posting the link
stevenaia Michinaga: closer inspection reveals, sorry
Peer Infinity: but only because I was typing a sentence about the link first :P
Adelene Dawner: Steve: Red is to reset the board, yellow is lock/unlock so nobody can interfere with your drawing, and green is 'clear sleection', useful when editing.
aurel Miles giggles
Adelene Dawner: :)
aurel Miles: sorry - posthuman - post toastie
aurel Miles: is all i can think of
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins..if we're not careful....
Corvuscorva Nightfire: we might be.
aurel Miles: i got stuck like this during a performance of handel - messiah once
aurel Miles: he trusted in God that he would de-liver him.
aurel Miles: blah
Corvuscorva Nightfire dies
Corvuscorva Nightfire: you and Three.
aurel Miles: sorry.
Corvuscorva Nightfire shakes my head...just awful.
Adelene Dawner: hehe
aurel Miles: you had to be there
aurel Miles: nobody has answered my question
Corvuscorva Nightfire: De Liver?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: question?
Adelene Dawner: (feel free to play, Steve/Peer/whoever - board's unlocked.

  

aurel Miles: about why (yup - sing it a few dozen times and you can't help but think it that way)
aurel Miles: about why it matters
aurel Miles: if we are augmented or not
aurel Miles: why?
Threedee Shepherd: I think it has to do with the way people think about morality and ethics. A simple example is the athlete-steroid thing
Peer Infinity: as I said, I don't bother worrying about details like whether we qualify as "augmented", or "transhuman" yet
aurel Miles: i object to athletes on steroids because it worries me that we are making sport of watching people who are suffering to entertain us
Peer Infinity: I also happen to not pay any attention to sports :P
aurel Miles: that is the only reason
Threedee Shepherd: It's OK to wear glasses to a math exam, but not always OK to bring a calculator
aurel Miles: if steroids were safe
aurel Miles: i wouldn't care
Solobill Laville: Means and ends seem to be pertinent in this case
Corvuscorva Nightfire: very
Threedee Shepherd: what about carbohydrate augmentation for sumo wrestlers?
aurel Miles: if you are able to use the calculator during the course of your work then you should be able to use it to prove yourself worthy of doing the job.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
aurel Miles: suffering
Adelene Dawner: I don't care anyway. And I get qannoyed at restrictions on my own choices like that - it shouldn't be up to anyone but me whether a harmful thing is 'worth it'.
aurel Miles: ritualized suffering
Corvuscorva Nightfire: so the question is...what suffering is caused and why?
aurel Miles: unless it is in the service of a specific religion
aurel Miles: is, i think, wrong
aurel Miles: but i only say that because i do not wish to see it
aurel Miles: and i don't wish to see it for a variety of reasons
aurel Miles: many selfish.
Peer Infinity: if I wished to continue this topic, I would say "who is forcing the athletes to take steroids?", or "who is forcing the athletes to be athletes?"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: if one wears contacts...which is not easy....and causes my sister suffering.,,,ut she shees better than glasses.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: well..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: i think the atheletes based on why ...are pretty easy to say no to.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or rather easier than other things.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: less easy is say..breast augmentation.
Solobill Laville welcomes Peer to the 'inner ring' :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: because that is a very personal "why"
Threedee Shepherd: look at steve's tatgtoos
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that must have hurt, Steve?
Peer Infinity: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire looks solemnly at Stevie.
aurel Miles: when we get into these personal whys
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, no, no suffering here
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, listening.
aurel Miles: then i wonder why i think about it at all
aurel Miles: except that in the case of breast augmentation
aurel Miles: it makes me wince
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
aurel Miles: and makes me want to rub my breasts - which is not polite
aurel Miles: so i would rather not have my attention drawn to it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yet..some of the whys make me wince and some do not...
aurel Miles: the physical idea - the process, the insult to the body, that's what makes me wince
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. yet some of the actual whys make ME wince.
aurel Miles: such as?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: looking beautiful for someone..looking for approval.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: like an athelete.
aurel Miles: why does someone else asking for approval make you wince
aurel Miles: ??
aurel Miles: i know what you mean
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...
aurel Miles: but i would like to go deeper into that motivation
Corvuscorva Nightfire: suffering for approval makes me wince.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: to be more precise.
Solobill Laville: It would seem to be your same point about suffering, Aurel
aurel Miles: yeah - we go back to suffering
Solobill Laville: And also, Ade's point about freedom...two sides to that coin
aurel Miles: witnessing suffering is difficult to bear
aurel Miles: that is one of the points of the Sundance
Solobill Laville: ?
aurel Miles: and i am not certain i understand it
Threedee Shepherd: the Penetentes who nail themselves to crosses do not think they are suffering
aurel Miles: in plains native traditions
aurel Miles: Cree
aurel Miles: i think
aurel Miles: yeah
aurel Miles: i was invited to one
aurel Miles: they perform a dance where they take on the suffering of the community
aurel Miles: and offer it up to the sun
aurel Miles: (as a metaphor)
aurel Miles: to cleanse the community
aurel Miles: it's one of those rituals
aurel Miles: that involves a lot of blood
aurel Miles: because the "dancers" are pierced
aurel Miles: and - well
aurel Miles: it's an endurance thing too
aurel Miles: it's painful
aurel Miles: all round
aurel Miles: and i am not sure i understand it
Solobill Laville: thx :)
aurel Miles: but i know it is considered to be very powerful healing medicine
aurel Miles: yw
Threedee Shepherd: I think it is interesting that other similar examples I am aware of ususlly involve testosterone
aurel Miles: so what is it about the witnessing of suffering?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: is it the witnessing or the doing in that case that's important?
aurel Miles: why do we need that?
aurel Miles: both
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks.
Threedee Shepherd: because we are social animals, perhaps??
aurel Miles: that doesn't explain it to me
aurel Miles: could you say more?
Threedee Shepherd: meaning is related to context, perhaps even depends on it to exist
aurel Miles: yes
aurel Miles: but Why?
aurel Miles: what need does it meet?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and perhaps...in all three of those cases...the observers part is vitally important.
aurel Miles: what purpose does it serve?
Threedee Shepherd: For soical primates, the others are the basic context
aurel Miles: context is the frame
aurel Miles: what is the picture?
aurel Miles: what does it mean?
Threedee Shepherd: could it be that it meets the needs often collected under the heading of "spiritual meaning"
Corvuscorva Nightfire tries to think of a place where SHE is witness to suffering taken on willingly.
Solobill Laville: :) I think so, but also that in a 'normal social environment we feel empathy
Threedee Shepherd: Sundance as a way to gain power over suffering that is otherwise meaningless.
aurel Miles: you still haven't said what it means - why we need it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: to gain that power...
aurel Miles: Sundance suffering is deliberate
Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods
aurel Miles: like breast implants
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok
aurel Miles: or steroids
Corvuscorva Nightfire: here's a thought
Threedee Shepherd: Oh, we need very little, but the human thing is to "do"
aurel Miles: or those south american christian dancers who pierce their cheeks and carry the cross
Solobill Laville: Right, empathy can bu turned off
Corvuscorva Nightfire: when we are powerless...we look for ways to be powerful again.
Solobill Laville: *be
Threedee Shepherd: I agree Corvi
aurel Miles: i do not feel powerful when i am suffering
Corvuscorva Nightfire: perhaps the t sufferers are trying to make a meaning...where they have power.
aurel Miles: quite the contrary
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and we are trying to believe they can.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: wait
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's not what i meant
Corvuscorva Nightfire: when i worked in rape crisis.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: one thing that was shocking for survivors was rape fantasies after.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: reliving the suffering trying to take back the control of it.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was still suffering..still awful.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but it had an element of choice.
aurel Miles: now that tells me something
aurel Miles: that sounds resonant
aurel Miles: if we grasp suffering voluntarily
aurel Miles: then we take the power from it
Threedee Shepherd: Yes Corvi. Perhaps we can start by saying suffering exists, it is painful/demeaning/unpleasant and we try to "explain" it to make it bearable.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
aurel Miles: and transfer it to ourselves
aurel Miles: now
aurel Miles: if you go back to steroids
aurel Miles: or other implants
aurel Miles: transhumans
Corvuscorva Nightfire listens.
aurel Miles: are they conquering their fear of being vanquished
aurel Miles: by technology
aurel Miles: or by an opponent
aurel Miles: by grasping the source of the fear?
aurel Miles: and taking it in?
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks.
aurel Miles: and now this is starting to remind me of Andrea Dworkin's views of penetrative sex.
Peer Infinity doesn't like any kind of pain :(
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oook
Corvuscorva Nightfire pokes Adelene...we were kinda talkin' bout that today.
aurel Miles: interesting
aurel Miles: i am curious as to why the idea of the impentrable body
aurel Miles: is considered to be desireable
aurel Miles: and i wonder if fear of the transhuman
aurel Miles: is fear of uncontrolled penetration
aurel Miles: ?
aurel Miles: body as fortress?
aurel Miles: or body as interface?
aurel Miles: or body as tool?
aurel Miles: which is it?
Adelene Dawner: You may have something, there. :)
Solobill Laville: Fundamentally, fear of death perhaps
aurel Miles: how so?
Adelene Dawner: 'how much can it change before I'm not 'me' any more?'?
Peer Infinity: wee, random theories :) fun :)
aurel Miles: until you unlink
Solobill Laville: "impenentrable" body...fortress...power...all of these are war images of great struggle
Threedee Shepherd: LOSS OF CONTROL, I think is a big issue/fear.
aurel Miles: if you've ever had a near death experience - that's what it feels like, you stay linked or you unlink
Solobill Laville: against ultimately...seems like death to me
Peer Infinity has a nonstandard answer to this question: there is no "me" :)
Solobill Laville shrugs and smiles
Adelene Dawner grins at Peer :)
Peer Infinity: also, I'm not afraid of my own death
Peer Infinity: I'm a hardcore Utilitarian, by the way.
Threedee Shepherd: a slang for orgasm in French translates as "the little death", I note
Peer Infinity: I want to maximize the amount of happiness in the universe, but I don't care who it is that experiences the happiness :)
Adelene Dawner pokes Three. "You always bring that up: why?"
aurel Miles: G-d and I bicker constantly, that's how I knows/he exists.
Threedee Shepherd: Because it seemed relevant to the conversation at this point, considering death and power and sufferingb in one conversation
Adelene Dawner: 'k
aurel Miles: i have never known an orgasm to cause suffering.
aurel Miles: maybe you're doing it wrong.
Solobill Laville: it's also just a great quote :)
Adelene Dawner snerks at Aurel. ^.^
aurel Miles: ;)
Solobill Laville: if you never want it to end, suffering indeed occurs when pleasure ceases
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ohhh
Solobill Laville: longing for pleasure is a kind of suffering
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Threedee Shepherd: I have never contemplated that being orgasmic--in itself--can be accomplished wrongly
aurel Miles looks at Solo and 3d and ponders what interesting lives they must lead in private...
Solobill Laville thinks of 'bad pizza' hehe
Adelene Dawner laughs :)
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
aurel Miles: i had a boyfriend once
aurel Miles: who didn't like spice cake
aurel Miles: he was prone to eating all the goodies in the house
aurel Miles: and i liked to make cupcakes
aurel Miles: to take to work sometimes
aurel Miles: i was suprised to find
aurel Miles: he snuck into those
aurel Miles: and ate them!
aurel Miles: i said
aurel Miles: why????
Threedee Shepherd: aurel there is a Buddhist thread in this hall that recalls that all desire leads to suffering
aurel Miles: you don't even like spice cake??
aurel Miles: and he said
aurel Miles: brushing the crumbs off his lips
aurel Miles: Bad cake is better than no cake at all.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Solobill Laville: yup
stevenaia Michinaga: do woman think that way too?
aurel Miles: same guy once asked me "must you always be so you-ish?"
aurel Miles: no
Solobill Laville: (that is the 2nd Noble Truth, Three)
aurel Miles: we don't think that way
stevenaia Michinaga: funny, you don;t look you-ish
Solobill Laville: buddum bum :)
aurel Miles: but yes - we must always be so we-ish.
aurel Miles: women, that is.
aurel Miles: anyway - sorry to digress
Adelene Dawner: I suspect we're wired to think more of long-term consequences, for obvious reasons.
stevenaia Michinaga: we are easily distracted
aurel Miles: i just don't see the point in eating or doing anything i will have to wear later
aurel Miles: unless i really love it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: we may also find it harder to admit if we do think like that.
aurel Miles: that goes for non-human bits too
Adelene Dawner nods at Corvi "social pressure, yes."
aurel Miles: i don't want to have to pay for something twice.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
aurel Miles: suffer when you take it in - suffer for taking it in
aurel Miles: makes no sense
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks.
aurel Miles: what about this transhuman place?
Solobill Laville: Fighting suffering makes no sense either
Solobill Laville notices the time and remembers his pillow is suffering without him
Adelene Dawner: 'night Solo
aurel Miles: goodnight Solo
Solobill Laville: (night)
Threedee Shepherd: nite solo
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Bill.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye all..time for me to move on, too.
aurel Miles: me too actually
aurel Miles: Goodnight all
Adelene Dawner: 'night, Corvi-Luv. Sya tomorrow :)
Threedee Shepherd: g'nite
Adelene Dawner: *cya
aurel Miles: thanks for having me
aurel Miles: !
aurel Miles: bye
Adelene Dawner: 'night Aurel
Corvuscorva Nightfire: NIght Three, Adelene...luvs.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: night, Aurel...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Night Peer.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: night, Stevie.
Peer Infinity: night Corvi
stevenaia Michinaga: night corvi
Threedee Shepherd: night steve
Adelene Dawner: 'night Steve ;)