2010.05.31 07:00 - Approaching Time, Sublime
Table of contents
No headersThe Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza , who was joined by Bleu, Yakuzza, Pema, Zen, Archmage, Druth, astroboy, and a new visitor: Kiki. :)
An often fascinating session in which we discussed the art of sacredness, what is seen in weaves of time, the E8 TOE, Wu Wei, the Tao, Science, and views...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :))
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm filling in for Eden today, as she has an appointment. :) How are things?
Bleu Oleander: great, you?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi you too
Yakuzza Lethecus: two
Yakuzza Lethecus: gosh
Bleu Oleander: hey Yaku
Bleu Oleander: interesting art show yesterday Yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Doing pretty well... just grabbed my sculpture from the village square, and ran into someone interesting from kira japan
Eliza Madrigal: Hi ya :)
Bleu Oleander: oh nice
Bleu Oleander: I took mine too
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't get a chance to see the photos yet though, as I found myself in conversation about the word 'kira' and also the difference between 'religious' and 'sacred'
"Kira Kira" in Japanese, is the sound of a star blinking, as I understand it.
The visitor elaborated a bit for me:
they say it's from "kira-boshi" 綺羅 星
kira =brinking, boshi, hoshi = star
but, originaly, kira meant a gorgeous cloth.
Bleu Oleander: Eden and I put our photos there to get people startedEliza Madrigal: What do you think makes something 'sacred'?
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bleu... look forward to seeing them :)
Bleu Oleander: reverence, respect, come to mind
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, yes... like a feel of weightiness...
Bleu Oleander: mostly in a religious connotation
Eliza Madrigal: when she asked the best I could think of at the time was 'setting something apart'
Bleu Oleander: in a loose sense yes
Bleu Oleander: highly valued
Eliza Madrigal: but sacred being more 'open' in that one can hold something sacred without insisting that someone else does necessarily...
Bleu Oleander: best case scenario
Bleu Oleander: unfortunately usually not like that
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: hard to delineate what is sacred and what is not
Bleu Oleander: don't know even if one should
Eliza Madrigal: the visitor was appreciating the museum actually, which is a good representation
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi pema
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Yaku, Bleu, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: We were talking about "What is sacred", sparked by a conversation I had this morning...
Pema Pera: did you find some answers? :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) no answers... just enjoying the question
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arch :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Arch
Pema Pera: Hi Arch
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Eliza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi arch
Archmage Atlantis: Good morning Pema
Eliza Madrigal: Hey, Zen :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
Pema Pera: Hi Zen!
Zen Arado: Hi all :)
Archmage Atlantis: Nice to see you, Yak
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi zen
Pema Pera: "sacred" seems to reflect a mind set more than anything else . . . .
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Zen, Bleu
Zen Arado: as applied to objects?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I guess that's why I kept thinking 'set apart'... its a way of holding something, to me... holding a view...
Seeing time by shooting stars ...
Eliza Madrigal: ties into taking snapshots nicely...
Eliza Madrigal: I'd better get busy on that!
Zen Arado: hope I got something last night at exhibition
Eliza Madrigal: exhibition?
Bleu Oleander: very nice exhibition
Zen Arado: exhibition were at last night
Bleu Oleander: artists interpret "big bang"
Zen Arado: Hi Druth
Bleu Oleander: was that University of Barcelona Yaku?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth, nice to see you again :)
Archmage Atlantis: To me, no one vision, is the "one"........many rooms in the mansion
Pema Pera: morning, Druth!
Yakuzza Lethecus: noke is studying there
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh well that seems the perfect setting to try to see people scrambling to see time... 'the big bang'
Zen Arado: seemed a lot of Spanish influence
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know in how for open science is part of the university
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, she lives there
The E8 TOE...
Bleu Oleander: Pema, what are your thoughts on the E8 TOE?
Zen Arado: would love to try that kind of art
Bleu Oleander: one of the artists used that as his theme
Pema Pera: E8 TOE? what is that?
Pema Pera: ah!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: exceptional lie group
Pema Pera: yes, very interesting indeed!
Kiki Walpanheim: hi druth, yakuzza and all
Archmage Atlantis: lie group, interesting
Zen Arado: hi astroboy
Zen Arado: Hi Kiki
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi kiki,druth
astroboy Bigboots: hay~
Yakuzza Lethecus: astroboy
Eliza Madrigal: Hi astroboy, glad to see you again too
Kiki Walpanheim: Hi Zen
Pema Pera: hi Kiki!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kiki, I'll give you a note about the group. Welcome :))
Kiki Walpanheim: Hi Pema, eliza, thank you elizaEliza Madrigal: http://www.andyross.net/e8_lisi.htm (TOE reference)
Pema Pera: E8 is a very interesting group, mathematically speaking . . . but hard to summarize in a simple way
Bleu Oleander: Garrett Lisi?
Bleu Oleander: was he the one who came up with this theory?
Pema Pera: several people, in various ways, but I don't know the detailBleu Oleander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Garrett_Lisi
Archmage Atlantis: Not so difficult for at theoritical mathematian
Archmage Atlantis: Or one who stand outside a bit
Bleu Oleander: It was a very interesting art show
Eliza Madrigal: This is the first I've heard of this, Blue. Thanks :)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: Thanks for the note card, Blue!
Pema Pera: Bleu
Bleu Oleander: fun opportunites there for "Art of Being" photographs !!
Eliza Madrigal: I'm interested to know how people are choosing their snapshots of 'time'... I didn't see if there is a notecard feature with the photos?
Eliza Madrigal: Or I guess we can share in sessions...
Bleu Oleander: the idea was to share in a special session
Bleu Oleander: you could put a notecard with your photo if you want :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay, great. The whole project is like metaphors in metaphors... views in views... really fascinating
Pema Pera: :-)
Bleu Oleander: it has forced me to think about how I think about time :)
astroboy Bigboots: how's so?
Eliza Madrigal: Say more?
Bleu Oleander: I see time as less linear than I used to
astroboy Bigboots: Groovy.
Bleu Oleander: more integrated
Bleu Oleander: definitely hard to photograph!!
Bleu Oleander: I thought I knew what time was until I tried to define it
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes quite groovy, and hm...yes how does one photograph something integrated with so much else and somehow see/ spotlight it?
Archmage Atlantis: Ain't no use to try to understand
Bleu Oleander: well that's just it .... you end up photographing everythingPema Pera: yes, time is definitely a mystery . . . .
Pema Pera: you can't hold it in your hand
Pema Pera: time holds your hand in its hand :)
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Kiki Walpanheim: hi zen (sorry I missed a few lines when reading the chat)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: np :)
Eliza Madrigal: So what *have* you been able to see, Bleu? Or maybe "What has time shown you?"
Zen Arado: E8 visualization: http://www.aimath.org/E8/mcmullen.htmlPema Pera: pretty, Zen!
Bleu Oleander: i've been able to sense that being and spacetime is an inticate weave
Zen Arado: rather complex
Archmage Atlantis: The seeing is old, the ways of seeing have evolved
Eliza Madrigal: yes quite a web
Pema Pera: yes, Being and Time are definitely two of the biggest mysteries . . . .
Bleu Oleander: it's not a clear seeing .... more like a sensing
Bleu Oleander: being sensing being as timePema Pera: the key is perhaps being seen, rather than seeing . . . .
Bleu Oleander: still working on my photos though so more to come i'm sure!
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, and that sense of integration seems a real pointer somehow...
Eliza Madrigal: Please go on, Pema?
Archmage Atlantis: Pema.. u are the most seen in this place
--BELL--
Pema Pera: well, in general, when we go beyond concepts, the best we can do, as long as "we" are "we", is to watch carefully how we don't go beyond concepts, how we fall back :-)Eos said it very nicely recently:
"Re "how to get there": perhaps just noticing how we leave there is sufficient"
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, hard to miss Pema with his long red hair, Arch :)
Pema Pera: (that was Eos talking about wu-wei)
Eliza Madrigal: Might this tie into sacredness somehow too... one might ask themselves 'what does time value" or hm...
Pema can't seem to help writing poetry...
Pema Pera:all is sacred . . . . .
in its lack of intrinsic existence
a playful appearance
Eliza Madrigal: and time seems to move differently when we're attentive
Archmage Atlantis: i accept that Pema
Zen Arado: According to [Ken], the text contains exactly six words; the two English translations given in the following table are both attributed to him.
Six Words of Advice
from Tilopa
Don't recall. Let go of what has passed. mi mno
Don't imagine. Let go of what may come. mi bsam
Don't think. Let go of what is happening now. mi shes
Don't examine. Don't try to figure anything out. mi dpyod
Don't control. Don't try to make anything happen. mi sgom
Rest. Relax, right now, and rest. rang sar bzhag
Zen Arado: found that this morning
Archmage Atlantis: :)
Pema Pera wondering at the comet that passed by :-)
Pema Pera: yes, very nice, TIlopa
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Pema Pera: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilopa#Six_Words_of_Advice
Archmage Atlantis: Our children shall be the universe
Archmage Atlantis: Thanks be there is a multi-verse
Eliza Madrigal: Tilopa seems familiar with wu wei :) Everything taking place, in rest
Pema Pera: I find those six words amazing to work with
Pema Pera: new depth each time I look :)
Zen Arado: think I do the opposite to that advice most of the time
Eliza Madrigal: I think it was Calvino who made a kind of parallel to the sense of Genesis... all this activity and resting on the 7th day... appreciation/sense of goodness....
Eliza Madrigal: without looking at things as 'beliefs' there is surely poetic inspiration there
Wu Wei leads into a discussion of Tao...
Pema Pera: it's interesting isn't it, 5 don'ts and one do
Zen Arado: and the 'do' is non doing
Archmage Atlantis: There is only do
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
Pema Pera: you can of course rephrase the 6th one also in a don't --- don't run around, don't dissipate
Kiki Walpanheim: that's why taoism is for soothing souls , and confucianism is for the more ambitious when everything is going well
Pema Pera: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Kiki
Kiki Walpanheim: because wu-wei is quite taoist
Pema Pera: yes, it comes from Taoism
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, the way of the tao
Archmage Atlantis: I know of it
Kiki Walpanheim: the chinese scholars in history changed betweetn taoism and confucianism as their belief when they were in up and downs of life
Zen Arado: interesting
Archmage Atlantis: Beliefs evolve
Eliza Madrigal: I've seen that pattern in myself too ... amazing how we sort of 'forget' things that seem so obvious at various points :)
Kiki Walpanheim: I personally agree to that idea of wu wei sometimes
Kiki Walpanheim: especially when dealing with friendship, and the things untractable about my destiny
Pema Pera: how do you see the world, Kiki?
Pema Pera: if I may ask :-)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: as a general question
Bleu Oleander: (big question)
Kiki Walpanheim: I think some things are not to be changed by me....and they happen for a reason
Kiki Walpanheim: a reason i dont understand.... about the sublime
Pema Pera: may I ask how you feel/sense the sublime?
Archmage Atlantis: And, Kiki,, If you were charged with the sublime
Archmage Atlantis: to evidence in RL
Archmage Atlantis: What would you choose?
astroboy Bigboots: what is the sublime is about chance?
Kiki Walpanheim: just for things I can't comprehend, or I can't handle....maybe they happen for a reason....maybe i need to listen to what the arrangement is
astroboy Bigboots: like how the dice works :P
Pema Pera: yes, I think that is a great way to approach what is happening
druth Vlodovic: makes me think of the serenity prayer
Archmage Atlantis: To me. yes, Bog
Eliza Madrigal: ah, about seeing and listening, going with at times, rather than guiding...Pema Pera: learning to listen is a great adventure
Pema Pera: everyday something totally new . . . .
Kiki Walpanheim: well science is like replacing the untractable important problems with tractable unimportant ones
Pema Pera: ;-)
Pema Pera: yes, it often seems that wayPema Pera: yet, the method of science, not believing and not disbelieving, may be powerful, even when approaching the sublime
Kiki Walpanheim: being trained in science/engineering all these years,
Zen Arado: though the unimportant may turn to be important
Kiki Walpanheim: yes
Bleu Oleander: i think individuals do, not science as such
Pema Pera: ah, your background is in science/engineering, Kiki?
Kiki Walpanheim: yes
Kiki Walpanheim: they dont help me to answer loads of questions
Bleu Oleander: what helps you?
Kiki Walpanheim: I don't know....
Pema Pera: the facts of science don't, but perhaps the method can inspire
Kiki Walpanheim: I thought maybe philosophy could help some
Kiki Walpanheim: nods....perhaps
Pema Pera: the way of exploring in a free and open way
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: I got disillusioned with that too.....
Eliza Madrigal: a difference between sacredness and religiousness, ie mysticism and 'beliefs' often seems to be that the later sometimes loses the sense of daring curiosity that science (maybe ideally) values... like a risk taking
Archmage Atlantis: I did not intend to speak again,
Bleu Oleander: too many questions to rely on any one method of investigation perhaps
Zen Arado: 'answers' might not be what we should be looking for?
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Archmage Atlantis: Elisa, all that is is sacred
Zen Arado: answers only provisional
Bleu Oleander: maybe it's about the quest for answers, not the answers
Archmage Atlantis: faminem war bi ============to0 mmwny
Zen Arado: or springboards to the next big questions
Zen Arado: yes Bleu
Pema Pera: have you studied taoism a bit, Kiki, if I may ask?
Kiki Walpanheim: yes
Kiki Walpanheim: I studied Taoist literature in ancient chinese
Pema Pera: lucky you!
Pema Pera: including the Tao Te Tjing?
Archmage Atlantis: omg, my RL company left with me here at the desk
Kiki Walpanheim: some excerpts in each of some taoist books
Eliza Madrigal quietly excuses herself. Thank you everyone :)
Archmage Atlantis: Have to go
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care eliza
Zen Arado: bye Eliza
Bleu Oleander: bye Eliza
Kiki Walpanheim: some from tao te ching--BELL--
Pema Pera: é“ å¯ é“ ï¼Œ éž å¸¸ é“ ã€‚ å å¯ å ， éž å¸¸ å
Bleu Oleander: gtg ... cu ... have a great day !
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care bleu
Pema Pera: bye Bleu!
druth Vlodovic: bye
druth Vlodovic: I suppose you might ask what you want your answers for (their purpose)
Zen Arado: bye Bleu
Zen Arado: I better go too
Zen Arado: bue everyone
Pema Pera: bye Zen!
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye zen
druth Vlodovic: cya
Pema Pera: yes, Druth, good question!
Kiki Walpanheim: bye zen
Kiki Walpanheim: é“ is Tao
Pema Pera: yes, or way/road/path
Kiki Walpanheim: and in this context, the meaning of tao is not to be summarized in one word for translation....
Pema Pera: yes
Kiki Walpanheim: perhpas the whole interpretation of taoism lies here
Pema Pera: yes!
Pema Pera: the path that can be "pathed" is not the true path . . .
druth Vlodovic: or "journey" perhaps
Pema Pera: that's a different word, I thinkKiki Walpanheim: it contains meaning like, the way how everything works
Kiki Walpanheim: the way how the world works....
Pema Pera: yes, like in English, "way" can be quite broad
Pema Pera: literal and metaphorical
Kiki Walpanheim: nods
Pema Pera: it's beautiful, the brevity of chinese characters . . . very evocative
Pema Pera: "way can way not true way"
Kiki Walpanheim: heh heh
Pema Pera: "name can name not true name"Pema Pera: much nicer than saying philosophically "go beyond concepts!"
Kiki Walpanheim: well....the way everything works could be understood, but not in the usual way we think it should be.....
Kiki Walpanheim: a better translation , i think
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: we think too literally, most of the time, in terms of concepts/names/judgments
Kiki Walpanheim: and the name is better be interpreted as...fame
Kiki Walpanheim: ty
Pema Pera: interesting connection!
Pema Pera: famous fame is not true fame :-)
Kiki Walpanheim: fame , fortune can be chased, but not in the usual way as how we think they are....the second sentencePema Pera: yes, if we open up, we don't have to chase, it's already there
Kiki Walpanheim: é“ å　both are nouns at the first place, then verbs in the second occurance
Pema Pera: yes, that's so nice about Chinese!
Kiki Walpanheim: ;)
--BELL--
Kiki Walpanheim: one clause from taoism was once my status message in my IM
Pema Pera: which one?
Kiki Walpanheim: i am trying to find a proper english translation
Kiki Walpanheim: i rememebered it in chinese...
Kiki Walpanheim: the translation is something like....
Kiki Walpanheim: heaven and eath are not humane/benevolent.....it leaves everything be, to grow, and to perish........
druth Vlodovic: :) I always get in trouble with people when I say stuff like that
Pema Pera: è°· 神 ä¸ æ» ï¼Œ 是 è°“ 玄 ç‰ ã€‚
Kiki Walpanheim: ;/ welll i understand my translation definitely ruins the beauty of the original
druth Vlodovic: I wasn't disagreeing
Pema Pera: 天 地 ä¸ ä» ï¼Œ 以 万 物 为 åˆ ç‹—
Kiki Walpanheim: yes, that is
Kiki Walpanheim: the last one
Pema Pera: 圣 人 ä¸ ä» ï¼Œ 以 百 姓 为 åˆ ç‹—
Kiki Walpanheim: nods
Pema Pera: yes, sorry, I copied the wrong one the first time :-)
Kiki Walpanheim: ;)
Pema Pera: yes, that is really profound
Pema Pera: to go beyond duality that wayPema Pera: Here is one translation: The Tao doesn't take sides; it gives birth to both good and evil. The Master doesn't take sides; she welcomes both saints and sinners.
Kiki Walpanheim: nodsKiki Walpanheim: “the Daoist idea here is not negative but positive, for it means that Heaven and Earth are impartial, have no favorites, and are not humane in a deliberate or artificial way.â€
Pema Pera: (I don't speak Chinese, but I have learned Japanese, so I can more or less understand some of the writing)
Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)
druth Vlodovic: hmm, I prefer kiki's translation better it doesn't imply the existence of something we need to judge everything by
druth Vlodovic: :-)
Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)Pema Pera: yes, "giving birth" is not such a good term
Kiki Walpanheim: yes, values, meaning, even moral stantards are inquired by ourselves, not to be set by anything superior to us
druth Vlodovic: well, I meant the dichotomies, good & evil, saints & sinners,
Pema Pera: did you learn some form of Taoist meditation too, Kiki?
druth Vlodovic: judging, weighing, "ought to" bleh
Kiki Walpanheim: I am not so sure aobut the idea myself tho...but it is quite taoist, and it makes sense.......taoist meditation? i dont think so
Pema Pera: the challenge is always how to apply these ideas to everyday life . . . .
Pema Pera: and some form of meditation may help, to prevent the ideas from just staying ideasKiki Walpanheim: nods
Kiki Walpanheim: when i am overwhelmed with things i can't handle, ii turn to taoism...
Pema Pera: what we do here in our group, in RL mostly, is to take very short breaks, just a few seconds every fifteen minutes, to remind ourselves of the openness -- of the Tao, or whatever you like to call it
Pema Pera: yes, the Tao is a great refuge
Kiki Walpanheim: it's about let things be......
Pema Pera: æ²» 大 国 ， è‹¥ 烹 å° é²œ 。
Pema Pera: Governing a large country is like frying a small fish.
--BELL--
Kiki Walpanheim: heh heh.....ruling a nation is like cooking tiny fish
Kiki Walpanheim: the translation
Pema Pera: yes, and ruling ourselves is similar :-)
Kiki Walpanheim: the tiny fish can't take too much up and downs in a hot oil pot
Kiki Walpanheim: or they would get burned
Pema Pera: and neither can we :)
Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)
Pema Pera: well, I have to go to bed now; I'm in Kyoto, Japan, and it's almost 1 am here
Kiki Walpanheim: this way, it is kinda anarchist
Pema Pera: nice to meet you Kiki!
Kiki Walpanheim: good night
Kiki Walpanheim: nice to meet you too!
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night pema
druth Vlodovic: good night Pema
Pema Pera: yes, it has a distinctly anarchist feeling, in a very nice way!
Pema Pera: nice meeting you too, druth!
Pema Pera: and good seeing you again, Yaku
druth Vlodovic: anarchist? more a call for calm in all circumstances I'd think
Kiki Walpanheim: ruling a nation is like cooking tiny fish
Yakuzza Lethecus: druth: you don´t speak chinese either right ? :)Kiki Walpanheim: so not to make the fish in the hot pot be played with too much
druth Vlodovic: not a bit :(
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, kiki needs to teach us :P
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
Kiki Walpanheim: but it is only my own interpretation on that clause ;-)druth Vlodovic: "don't poke stuff" I got that...
Kiki Walpanheim: heh heh
From here there was a bit of discussion about personal geography and such... snipped, as requested, from the log. :)
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