2008.11.03 07:00 - Spray of Water

This was the third guardian session, in our new system in which we designate 4 of the 28 weekly PaB session to be special -- in the sense that we encourage guardians to come to these `guardian sessions' to meet each other. During this new experiment, we will meet at 7 pm SLT on Saturdays, at 1 pm SLT on Sundays, at 7 am SLT on Mondays, and at 1 am SLT on Tuesdays.

I, Pema, was the guardian on call for this session, so I provided comments and title. When I arrived, I found Solobill already at the new building that Storm had constructed for us, already three months ago. During the previous session, we had made the move to the new place.

Solobill Laville: Mornin' :)
Pema Pera: Morning, Solo!
Solobill Laville takes a deep breath in the new building :)
Pema Pera: I wonder whether there are any stragglers at the old place . . .
Solobill Laville looks at his map
Solobill Laville: Yes, someone is there, maybe Cal
Pema Pera: we probably should go over periodically to check
Solobill Laville: I'll pop over and come right back
Pema Pera: Thanks!
Pema Pera: Hi Gaya!
Pema Pera: Welcome at our new place!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel: thank you Pema. same to you
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Gaya and pema :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
Pema Pera: Quite a change of scene, hey!
Adams Dubrovna: Yes
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Bill :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Solobill Laville: Hey all!
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Adelene :)
Adelene Dawner: Hullo :)
Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
Adelene Dawner: I may be in and out - I'm hanging art in RL.
Pema Pera: And wb Solo
Solobill Laville: thanks
Pema Pera: It's interesting to see so much of the landscape, behind all of us, here
Solobill Laville looks at Gaya and pats the cushion next to him :)
Pema Pera: :)
Adelene Dawner will have to get used to all the open space.
Gaya Ethaniel: spray of water... bit cold :P
Solobill Laville: hehe
Solobill Laville: Maybe we need Gore-tex jackets
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Gaya Ethaniel giggles
Faenik: ah :)
Solobill Laville: It is more spread out here
Gaya Ethaniel zooms out

Adams commented on the serenity of the place.

Adams Dubrovna: There is a peacefulness here
Solobill Laville: Yes, and it feels like spring...
Adams Dubrovna: yes
Solobill Laville: strange, that, as I see the leaves falling outside my window
Solobill Laville: But nice
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Solobill Laville wants to throw a coin in the pool :)
Gaya Ethaniel: and your wish is...?
Solobill Laville: hmmmm
Solobill Laville: So many good ones
Solobill Laville: If I could have ONE...
Solobill Laville: What would it be?
Gaya Ethaniel listens
Solobill Laville is digging down deep...hmmm
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Solobill Laville: Does one focus on the causes, or the outcomes with a wish like that...
Adelene Dawner doesn't need to make a wish. Everything's good as it is, even the stuff that isn't. ^.^
Solobill Laville: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: how about as you said Solo... focus on the whole of the process, incl causes and outcomes
Bell: *ding*
Solobill Laville: Well, then, if I could wish that everyone could realize their true nature, right here, in this lifetime...
Faenik: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles at 'everyone'
Solobill Laville: Would that take care of things like war, hunger, pollution, etc.?
Adelene Dawner: Depends on your definition of 'realize', I suggest.
Solobill Laville: Nothing short of self-realization, in the contemplative meaning
Gaya Ethaniel marvels at Adele's brain that is alert at any time of the day when it functions well
Solobill Laville: The Christian "mystical union" or Buddhist enlightenment

I couldn't help myself, throwing in a radical twist to Solo's wish.

Pema Pera: well, Solo, your wish has been granted already . . . .
Solobill Laville: :))
Adelene Dawner grins at Pema (and Gaya, too) ^.^
Pema Pera: even though it may not seem that way
Faenik: ah :)
Adelene Dawner: The relevant difference is between knowing, and knowing-that-you-know.
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm seeing it more though although I know already
Adelene Dawner: Or between being, and knowing-that-you-are.
Adelene Dawner: The first *is*... the second may be impossible.
Solobill Laville: mm hmmm realizing realizing
Faenik loves wells!
Gaya Ethaniel mulls over Adele's first and second
Solobill Laville ponders another cup o' joe
Pema Pera: yes, because we are already realized, realization is possible
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adelene Dawner shrugs.
Solobill Laville wants everyone to realize that
Pema Pera: because we are already totally free, we can find that freedom
Gaya Ethaniel: at any rate, thank you for your wish Solo. it's touching
Pema Pera: yes, I second that!
Adelene Dawner wanders back to her art, catlike. :)
Solobill Laville: brb - coffee
Gaya Ethaniel: k
Solobill Laville: full cup :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Solobill Laville: But there is only a very small percentage of humanity
Solobill Laville: that really has an opportunity
Solobill Laville: to *find* that freedom
Solobill Laville: Hard to do that when you are starving
Solobill Laville: Or in a refugee camp
Gaya Ethaniel: I kind of disagree Solo... often harshness of life can trigger realisations for some people. depends on individuals
Solobill Laville: Though in an ultimate sense, that is true
Adelene Dawner: We all have limits on us - freedom includes freedom to take the consequences of your actions - not denying that some situations lead to much harsher consequences for some actions, but the freedom is still there.
Pema Pera: yes, absolutely, Solo, we can't put our head in the sand, and we have to deal with all the terrible aspects of this world -- but at the same time, when we lose the absolute perspective, we can not be very effective in teh relative realm
Gaya Ethaniel: absolute perspective Pema?
Pema Pera: On the firm basis of "nothing needs doing" we can do the right thing, most effectively
Pema Pera: from an absolute point of view, nothing needs to be done -- from a relative point of view there are many problems that need taken care of
Gaya Ethaniel: isn't that absolute point of view subjective?
Faenik: indeed?
Pema Pera: no, Gaya, I don't mean subjective, I mean rising above the relative, above objective and subjective both
Pema Pera: beyond the framework of the relative, of the world we find ourselves in, or *seem* to find ourselves in
Solobill Laville: Isn't the question really who is the "doer" in the relative point of view? Most doers don't have any relationship (in terms of awareness) with the absolute, yes?
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: everything is only the absolute
Pema Pera: and appears in the guise of the relative -- to us, in our interpretation
Pema Pera: there is no real split
Pema Pera: it is not a duality relative vs. absolute
Solobill Laville needs to take a course in speaking about the unspeakable
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Pema Pera: yes, we have to develop a vocabulary together, let's do so!
Gaya Ethaniel asks Solo to sign her up as well
Solobill Laville: Well, we've done a fairly good job so far
Solobill Laville: :)

Indeed! It's pretty amazing how much we have already been able to discuss, given our totally different backgrounds plus the fact that most of us had never met before we found each other here in PaB sessions.

Bell: *ding*
Solobill Laville: Excepting, of course, when we use it...
Solobill Laville: hehe
Pema Pera: as for no duality: from the relative point of view, there is no such thing as the absolute point of view; and from the absolute point of view, everything is included, even what is sometimes labeled as relative
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Faenik loves wells!
Pema Pera: so they are totally unequal
Pema Pera: just words used as pointers -- not a duality on equal footing
Adelene Dawner: "like comparing apples and hope"
Solobill Laville likes both of those!
Pema Pera: :)
Gaya Ethaniel frowns and tries to work out what she thinks of absolute/relative and how it's related to time/space...
Pema Pera: Let's take the example of a nightmare, in which you suddenly realize that you are dreaming, without waking up: the dream continues . . .
Pema Pera: at that moment, you can enjoy the nightmare, and let it play out as well as you can
Solobill Laville: I do that
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: the scary part is still scary, but has lost its sting
Pema Pera: (same with movie metaphore, watching a murder on screen)
Gaya Ethaniel: Pema, can you say more about 'no split'?
Pema Pera: the relative viewpoint is the point of view from within the story of the movie; the absolute viewpoint is from the point of view of the person knowing that (s)he is only dreaming
Pema Pera: there is no split between the two people
Adams Dubrovna: ah
Pema Pera: my dream-me and me who knows I am dreaming
Pema Pera: my dream body may be different from my real body
Faenik: could be
Pema Pera: those two I have
Pema Pera: but what I am is the same
Pema Pera: manifesting in those two bodies
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... what I was trying to say is that when time/space concept is removed... there is no absolute or relative...
Pema Pera: what do you mean with "concepts removed", Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: say in that nightmare Pema, the dream continues while another 'timeline' develops in which one is removed from being dreaming
Gaya Ethaniel: so from looking inwards to the dream or outwards to the person, the view point shifts
Gaya Ethaniel: for those, it's not possible (at least for me) to describe if the view point is absolute or relative without... um... one moment
Gaya Ethaniel: putting all the events together... well that's the best I can say
Pema Pera: I did not try to weave anything complex: I just used "absolute" and "relative" as two convenient labels, for describing how we relate in a dream to the dream, just before and just after realizing that it is a dream . . . .
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: when I 'control' dreams, there are many selves
Pema Pera: we can use different labels of course, and I was not trying to say much about space and time -- though those are interesting topics too!
Gaya Ethaniel: it's an odd experience
Solobill Laville: I'm not familiar with that kind of experience, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: all depends which self is 'real' I guess
Gaya Ethaniel: there is a self who control/steer the plot of the dream, self in the dream, another watching it all etc...

Solo reflected on the future of our new place.

Solobill Laville wonders if these same conversations will repeat overa and over again years to come around this pool :)
Pema Pera: :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles perhaps and another 'Gaya' in the group instead of myself
Solobill Laville doubts there will be another Solobill
Faenik: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel: well what is complex and 'off putting' for me to discuss at PaB is that the core of what we do is not complex but discussing it is for me
Solobill Laville: i understand that, Gaya
Adams Dubrovna learning that I constantly am making it complex
Pema Pera: that's why it is so important to report on our experiences, and connect all concepts with direct experience, direct seeing
Pema Pera: Adams does that admirably in her blog
Gaya Ethaniel: direct experience?
Pema Pera: yes?
Solobill Laville: Agrees very strongly :)
Gaya Ethaniel: what do you mean by direct?
Pema Pera: least veiled by words and expectations and judgments
Solobill Laville: Practical effort and experience
Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
Bell: *ding*
Solobill Laville: and what Pema said :)
Gaya Ethaniel: that's what I meant by 'concepts removed'...
Pema Pera: For me the most interesting PaB discussions start with a concrete experience, rather than the discussion of a concept or idea
Gaya Ethaniel: just to see
Pema Pera: yes, indeed
Solobill Laville: I agree Pema
Gaya Ethaniel: stop labelling absolute, relative, direct, indirect
Gaya Ethaniel: those become meaningless
Faenik: ah :)

To fill in what I meant by `concrete' I thought it best to provide and actual example.

Pema Pera: Like this night, when I woke up for a while, it struck me how each moment has eternity in it, is born by eternity, has access to eternity . . . .
Solobill Laville: :)
Pema Pera: and from that experience I could then say a lot more about Being and PaB
Solobill Laville: please do...
Pema Pera: (rather than starting with the concept time or such)
Pema Pera: well, where to start . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . . a sense of freedom from the burden of time
Pema Pera: like dropping a heavy backpack (of the type with a 17" screen macbook pro with an extra battery :)
Solobill Laville: hehe
Pema Pera: Feeling a TOTAL absence of "having to do x,y,z"
Pema Pera: and then ready to do those as best I can
Pema Pera: (I was in fact drawing on that experience, tacitly, earlier in our conversation, already)
Faenik: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel: yes I've heard of that backpack before :P
Pema Pera: Faenik always gets it quickly :)
Solobill Laville bows to Faenik's wisdom
Gaya Ethaniel: in those moments, one gets to see 'there is no split' imo
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: Now one question is: how to use that experience, how to work with it? One option that I like is to keep investigating, stubbornly, 9 sec after 9 sec after 9 sec what it could mean that there is no past-present-future . . . .
Pema Pera: Has any of you tried that?
Solobill Laville: yes
Pema Pera: what happened?
Faenik: indeed?
Solobill Laville: For one, it supports mindfulness in the present
Gaya Ethaniel: during a retreat I did. was peaceful but hard to adapt back to the daily grind after the retreat
Adelene Dawner chuckles.
Solobill Laville: But, of course, that includes the present
Adelene Dawner: Don't have to try it. The fact *is*. When it's needful, it'll happen. ^.^
Pema Pera: How about using the 9 sec for a few days to re-explore no-time that way?
Gaya Ethaniel: yes Adele. I know now what was missing during that retreat. why I found it hard to get back to the daily life
Solobill Laville: OK
Adelene Dawner: Say more, Gaya?
Pema Pera: I'd love to hear your experiences, Solo! We often talk about what has struck us, out of the blue, but it is nice to try to set up little bits and pieces of things-to-do, things-to-try out, wiggling the wires so to speak as part of an ongoing exploration
Gaya Ethaniel waits for Solo
Pema Pera: Yes, Gaya?
Solobill Laville was waiting for Gaya... :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles...
Solobill Laville: go ahead
Pema Pera: Solo may be getting back to us in three days . . . :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: well...
Pema Pera: (with his reports)
Solobill Laville: yes

We got a deal here!

Gaya Ethaniel: ok...
Gaya Ethaniel: before my first retreat, I was focusing a lot of big picture, the future, big goals
Gaya Ethaniel: as I learnt to mediate, I started to learn to focus on moments but in a way I divided time/tasks to do that... be mindful
Faenik: could be
Gaya Ethaniel: so during the retreat, I was totally focus on moment by moment but lost the sight of the whole process of it... that it's a contiuation. each steps, decisions I make goes towards the big picture... in a way, I was shifting between two extremes because they seemed to be mutually exclusive
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Gaya Ethaniel: well... I will write up a report too...
Adelene Dawner: Perhaps I should write something, too...
Pema Pera: that's a very nice report already, Gaya!
Pema Pera: I recognize it very well
Bell: *ding*
Pema Pera: We do tend to switch between those extremes within one dimension, and then we realize we can step to the side
Faenik: could be
Pema Pera: just one step
Pema Pera: into a totally different dimension
Pema Pera: from isolated moments to a more eternity-like continuity
Gaya Ethaniel: yes Pema, over the years, I've learnt to see that more
Gaya Ethaniel: key was to be aware of moments as well as the continuity at the same time so to speak...
Gaya Ethaniel: so those absolute, relative... out of the window really
Pema Pera: yes, I like to call that "fourth time" because it is not only different from past and future, but also very different from the normal kind of present . . . it is something else

We welcomed a new visitor, born that very same day.

Pema Pera: Hi RGFIRE!
Pema Pera: feel free to join us and sit down, if you like
Solobill Laville: Lot of traffic here at the crossroads...
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adelene Dawner: (oh, is *that* what you meant, Pem?)
Solobill Laville: "I went down to the crossroad..."
Gaya Ethaniel: do you have time to talk about your experience Solo?
Solobill Laville: Doh!
Pema Pera: RG, to sit down, you can right click on a cushion and choose "sit"
RGFIRE Footman: helo
Pema Pera: preferably a cushion where no one else sits on yet -- you were born today right?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hi Rgfire. you are sitting on Solobill at the moment.
Solobill Laville: :)
Pema Pera: don't worry, we all had to learn these things :-)
Solobill Laville: no worries!
RGFIRE Footman: im new here and i dont no wat to do
Solobill Laville: That's OK, RG take your time
Pema Pera: feel free to join us here
Pema Pera: we come together every six hours, four times a day
Pema Pera: we have a wiki with background information: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
RGFIRE Footman: thanks
Pema Pera: and by the way, we like to record our conversations there; do you mind to have your words included there as well?
Solobill Laville: i would love to Gaya, but must get back to the daily grind
Gaya Ethaniel: ah shame...
Solobill Laville: Well, for now at least
RGFIRE Footman: how d i record
Solobill Laville: Bye all!
Gaya Ethaniel: have a good day Solo
Faenik: indeed?
Pema Pera: We record the conversations, and add it to our blog on http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Pema Pera: you don't have to do anything
RGFIRE Footman: how do i record my words
Pema Pera: but we will not add your words unless you give us your permission
Adams Dubrovna: Very sorry, I was away for a while
RGFIRE Footman: its ok u can
Pema Pera: if it is okay with you, we include everything that is said
Pema Pera: thanks, RG!
RGFIRE Footman: no problem
Pema Pera: Is there anything particular you are looking for in SL?
Pema Pera: or are you just exploring?
RGFIRE Footman: exploring
Adelene Dawner: You can have your SL client automatically log anything you say or hear... you can set that up in the edit menu, under preferences > text chat > chat options
Pema Pera: You can find us here every day at 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm SLT, RG.
Adelene Dawner: excuse me, that was wrong. Edit > preferences > communication > logging options. Sorry.
Pema Pera: You can set a landmark here by using the tab "World" at the top and choosing "create landmark"
Pema Pera: I have to leave now, back to RL. Good seeing you all!
Adelene Dawner: cya, Pem
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: Looking forward to talking more about time, Gaya -- next time :)
Gaya Ethaniel: thank you Pema. good day