2008.11.11 19:00 - Does BEING have a dark side

Threedee Shepherd was moderator

Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, Corvi, hello, I am sitting in for Ade tonight and I thought no one was coming ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: me smiles.
Threedee Shepherd: you are still rezzing
Corvuscorva Nightfire: my sl is slow today
Threedee Shepherd: that's better :D
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Whatcha been thinking about this week?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: (I loved the pictures of you as a party animal...)
Threedee Shepherd: Do you think Being has a dark region, or do we manufacture it ourselves?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's quite a question.
Corvuscorva Nightfire sighs...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and consider
Corvuscorva Nightfire: s
Threedee Shepherd: I know the statement in Absolute terms that everything arises perfectly, yet if so, it gets off track all to easily
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: The explanation that has best resonated with me has been that it's a side effect of free will.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but...I as I've never believed in Being before....
Threedee Shepherd: one might have hoped fear would lead to love, not perverse behavior ^.>
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steve, I Guardianing for Ade tonight.
stevenaia Michinaga: hi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I feel totally out of my depth considering that question....Hi, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga accepted your inventory offer.
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you for the intro
Threedee Shepherd: Well experience is the best teacher, so I doubt any of us is a stranger to that question.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but it seems to me that when we are not...whatever it is we are attempting to do here...that's when the biggest darknesses arise.
stevenaia Michinaga: I once reached into the subject of darkness
stevenaia Michinaga: and being
Corvuscorva Nightfire: you did?
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
stevenaia Michinaga: a glance, very early on... I actually cannot find the log
stevenaia Michinaga: it was on the blog before the wiki, i the disccussuin didn;t go very far with Pema, I jsut mentioned it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: now would be a good time to go further?
stevenaia Michinaga: I was reading Genesis's commentary about the PaB fest in Princeton... did you get to to by chance?
Threedee Shepherd: not yet
stevenaia Michinaga: I kind of brought up what I belive was a parallel concept of Being, or perhaps a subset.... Love
stevenaia Michinaga: if Being is neutural, and love is positive, is there an opposte.. "no love" which balances this concept, bot dark, jsut absence of
stevenaia Michinaga: *not dark
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that seems dark enough.
stevenaia Michinaga: well , true
Corvuscorva Nightfire: as in...without light there is dark.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but perhaps there is a difference between" love and no love" and "love and darkness"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: interesting idea.
Threedee Shepherd: It seems that on this relative plane, "no love" is not neutral and children and adults languish without active love.
stevenaia Michinaga: as is the opposite of good, not good, or evil, not surfe thay are the same thing, or are...scratching head
Threedee Shepherd: well, everything does not need an opposite. take trees, there is just tree and not tree
stevenaia Michinaga: I know some live in "darkness" emotionally, but seems there is always the capacity for love
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...but not love...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: being outside of love....
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it is...*has no words for this idea*
stevenaia Michinaga: but to be outside, there is usually a way back in
stevenaia Michinaga: I jsut see "love" not just people to people love but open hearted love become a very transforming start
stevenaia Michinaga: *seen
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...yes....
stevenaia Michinaga: not start, state, but start too
Threedee Shepherd: yes, I agree. This seems a good moment for this quote I collected recently:

We can reject everything else: religion, ideology, all received
wisdom. But we cannot escape the necessity of love and compassion.... 
This, then, is my true religion, my simple faith. In this sense, there is no need
for temple or church, for mosque or synagogue, no need for complicated
philosophy, doctrine or dogma. Our own heart, our own mind, is the temple.
The doctrine is compassion. Love for others and respect for their rights and
dignity, no matter who or what they are: ultimately these are all we need.
So long as we practice these in our daily lives, then no matter if we are
learned or unlearned, whether we believe in Buddha or God, or follow some
other religion or none at all, as long as we have compassion for others and
conduct ourselves with restraint out of a sense of responsibility, there is
no doubt we will be happy.
~ Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama ~

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you, Three.
stevenaia Michinaga: nicely put
stevenaia Michinaga: seems we are wired to understand love, and likewise Being isn;t to far from there (in my mind) and how you perceive Being in similar ways
Corvuscorva Nightfire: say that differently..I'm not getting it.
Threedee Shepherd: Wired, yes. I doubt many people get up in the morning and think, Woe, today I am going to go out there and be an abusive SOB, yet they are.
Threedee Shepherd: WoW
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Woe.
Threedee Shepherd: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: I make an assumption that open hearted love, as in Three's quote is a path to comprehending Being
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I see.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: as in "God is Love"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ?
stevenaia Michinaga: Being is love?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Threedee Shepherd nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hell in some Catholic ideology...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: is seeing God.....and love....and being banished from it's presence
stevenaia Michinaga: hell, god... hmmmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire shrugs...it's the mythology I was raised in.....
stevenaia Michinaga: lucky us... three and I were not
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Threedee Shepherd: I'm not sure about hell, but being banished from love is horrible, hell or wherever
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
stevenaia Michinaga: who would do that except to themselves
Corvuscorva Nightfire: so...I think when I hear "not love"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think...damn.
Threedee Shepherd: Unfortunately I have meet young people who are growing up in an environment of criticism, abuse and no obvious love. The result is catastrophic.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: sorry, Three.
stevenaia Michinaga: so an existance of "no love" or no trust?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: both?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, maybe the same
Adelene Dawner accepted your inventory offer.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: certainly no love creates no trust.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or can.
Threedee Shepherd: worse it creates a feeling of worthlessness. No child recognizes it is not their fault.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
stevenaia Michinaga: that seems to not only allpy to children
stevenaia Michinaga: apply
Threedee Shepherd: true, but later one *can* understand, if it is not too late
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I guess that's true, too...though I feel I have a few more resources and strategies now.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: to deal with "no love" situations.
stevenaia Michinaga: I know some very smart people who constantly need to be supported aformation
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
stevenaia Michinaga: if they can drop their self view of low worth, they would shime brightly
stevenaia Michinaga: or drop their view of worth at all
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Threedee Shepherd: back to Being, is ALL the *corruption* our own doing?
stevenaia Michinaga: can you relate Being and corruption for me Three
Adelene Dawner: BBeing is beyond corruption/noncorruption.
Adelene Dawner: As Avastu said, corruption rises perfectly :)
Adelene Dawner: *arises
Threedee Shepherd: I don't mean graft, I mean something good/beautiful being scorrupted, stained, brought down.
stevenaia Michinaga: by "us"
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, Ade, I said that at the start, and still, I wanted to examine it
Threedee Shepherd: that is my question is it all "by us"?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's the question I keep asking...I think....why? Why is being playing this game...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and ...isn't us Being Three?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: at least by local definition?
Adelene Dawner grins at Corvi. :)
Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps ther is a different way to look at it. Being arises perfectly. It is human nature that even with a drive for compassion, not-loving situation are simply unavoidable unintended consequences.
stevenaia Michinaga: awww, that's when I walked in, free will
Adelene Dawner: Human nature is not separate from Being.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Then WhY!?
stevenaia Michinaga: depend on how you preceive/define Being, it can be or maybe not, it;s why we are here, no?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Why do "not loving: situations arise?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Why is that......?
Adelene Dawner does not know, she just lives here.
Threedee Shepherd: I guess perhaps it could be like this: BEING...BEINg...BEIng...Being...being
Corvuscorva Nightfire leans into Adelene.....
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs at Three.....
You decline VAI Sanctuary Lease Renewed from A group member named Gentle Heron.
stevenaia Michinaga: no love is a matter for a closed heart, the heart which preceives love (and Being)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and considers this.
stevenaia Michinaga: waiting to be told what to consider.....
Adelene Dawner: It seems like the point of Being here is something other than being happy. I almost want to say that without various shades of no-love... *shrug* The only way for that not to happen is for everything to be the same... and that's obviously not what's supposed to be happening.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm realizing that every time this comes up for me....this idea of no love...in any mythology....I reject the mythology.
Threedee Shepherd: Oh, could ther not be calm people, excitable people, shy people etc, etc. and still just love?
Threedee Shepherd: .
Adelene Dawner: Hm. Corvi: What is love?
Corvuscorva Nightfire goes into a tailspin of thinking.....
Corvuscorva Nightfire: getting Adelene's point immedieately....but still unable to reconcile the no love with it.
Adelene Dawner: The best definition I've come up with is basically 'understanding' - very close to the concept of 'grok'.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: closer to grok than understanding...including aware, and vibrant.
Adelene Dawner: And it's nearly-or-actually impossible to *completely* understand someone who's different than you.
Adelene Dawner: Or yourself, for that matter.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: everyone is different from me....and from everyone else....
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to the last.....
Threedee Shepherd: True, but why fill in the non-understood spaces with darkness?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: right!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Why not fill them with.....
Corvuscorva Nightfire: open hearted willingness to love?
Threedee Shepherd: exactly
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm sounds good to me
Adelene Dawner: willingness-to isn't the same as reality-of, in some cases.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
stevenaia Michinaga: one first step
Corvuscorva Nightfire: well...
Adelene Dawner: It's a very good step, though, yes. :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: actually..there is a state in which...willingness and actuallity are pretty close.
Threedee Shepherd: Look, the Bonobo's seem to get it, why not *us* apes?
Adelene Dawner laughs.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: me smiles.
Threedee Shepherd: I suspect a problem is that *we* just couldn't stay where the weather was warm, food plentiful and not much crowding ;)
Adelene Dawner: willingness-to makes getting to the reality much, much easier. But misunderstandings will still happen. Not much can be done about that, as long as we're not all the same.
Threedee Shepherd: yes misunderstandings happen, but we could apply the more general version of the maxim: "Never attribute to malice, what can be explained by incompetence."
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to that!
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. Still a shade of no-love, even if it is a light one.
stevenaia Michinaga: some can't accept that
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Steve.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: is it?
stevenaia Michinaga: their own undoing
stevenaia Michinaga: they see" no love" where none exists....
Threedee Shepherd: I know, shit happens. And we could have a basic attitude of dealing with the results with love and compassion.
Adelene Dawner: If we accept that love is functionally the same as understanding, then yes, misunderstanding is no-love.
Adelene Dawner: Unintentional no-love, but as Three said, nobody wakes up and just decides to be an asshat.
Threedee Shepherd: The Buddhists are not entirely in a parallel universe about the *no*I* thing.
stevenaia Michinaga: love is the same as acceptance
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm not sure about grokking and love being the exact same thing...and misunderstanding...is not no love if the other is INTERESTED in understanding......
Corvuscorva Nightfire: in getting their own stuff out of the way to see the other whole.
Adelene Dawner shrugs.
Corvuscorva Nightfire revises....
Corvuscorva Nightfire: to the extent that we get our self out of the way and are open to the other person's (isn't sure she knows what concept goes here) we love.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes... to me it fits how I see things
Threedee Shepherd: Back to the 1940s (I think) song "Nature Boy" and its line, "the greatest thing you will ever learn is to love and be loved in return."
Adelene Dawner: That should track almost perfectly with understanding them... though I'm reminded of Corvi and my conversation earlier about how people hide themselves. Perhaps that's what's meant by all those sayings about how you can't be loved by someone else 'till you love yourself?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. or maybe more accurately...it's hard to love someone else, 'til.
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go (get back to work) this was a dlightful break... Three I took a lovely picture of the three of you, I'll post it once your log is up
Adelene Dawner: :)
Threedee Shepherd: thanks
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
stevenaia Michinaga: Corvi never looked so beautiful with her two escorts
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: The topic may have been hard, but throughout the session I feel loved :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you, Steve!
Threedee Shepherd: bye Steve
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
stevenaia Michinaga: bye I seem to have appear to have shot up in the sky... can you still see me?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm
Adelene Dawner: yup
Corvuscorva Nightfire: you're on the ground to me.
stevenaia Michinaga: aww here I am.. now I can leave
stevenaia Michinaga: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: night