2008.11.18 13:00 - Who can you trust?

 The Guardian on Duty was genesis Zhangsun, the comments below are hers.

genesis Zhangsun: Hi all
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Becka
Wol Euler: hello becka, gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Wol and Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
Wol Euler: hello fael
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Fael!
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Adelene!
Wol Euler: ade! hello
Becka Finesmith: Hi Fael
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Threedee
Adelene Dawner: Hullo!
Fael Illyar: Hi Adele :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Wol Euler: threedee, hi
Fael Illyar: Hi Three :)
Adelene Dawner waits for everyone to rez so she sees what options she has as far as laps :)
Wol Euler grins
Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Pema :0
genesis Zhangsun: *:)
Pema Pera: Hi All !
Wol Euler chuckles at the wrestling lions

 I guess I appeared most attractive, or perhaps the first to rez for Adelene and she came over, placing herself over my lap.  Glad Gen has some strong legs!

genesis Zhangsun: AHH please don't crush me
Wol Euler: hello pema
Pema Pera: (sorry, slow connection with cell phone . . . .)
Adelene Dawner chuckles.
genesis Zhangsun: I am getting mauled over here

Before I knew it both Threedee and Adelene had sandwiched me between them and I was surrounded by a wall of fur on both sides :) 

genesis Zhangsun: oh now its nice and warm
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: was Pema with us via cell phone?
Wol Euler: so he said ...
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Bigj
genesis Zhangsun: and Naoko
Fael Illyar: Hello Bigj
BigJ Foxtrot: hey how are you?
Fael Illyar: Hi Naoko :)
Naoko Oanomochi: Greetings :D
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Threedee Shepherd: Hi filks
Threedee Shepherd: *folks
Wol Euler: hello naoko, nice to see you again
genesis Zhangsun: welccome
Naoko Oanomochi: Likewise Wol *smiles*
Gaya Ethaniel smiles at her sister
Naoko Oanomochi smiles back
Gaya Ethaniel: =^.^=
genesis Zhangsun: So any topics up for discussion?
Threedee Shepherd: trust??
Adelene Dawner: oo, good one.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Naoko Oanomochi strokes the white lion
genesis Zhangsun: care to elaborate?

 I agreed it was an interesting topic and I wondered what the inspiration was behind it.

Threedee Shepherd purrs
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Yes a good topic
Threedee Shepherd: We are very open here. Trusting, one could say. It that trust something we have in the others listening, and/or in ourselves speaking?
Wol Euler: hi corvi
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Corvi
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Corvi. :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: Hi Corvi :)
Naoko Oanomochi: Greetings Corvi
Threedee Shepherd: Hi corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all!!! Good to see you.
genesis Zhangsun: hows the water?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm staying out of it, this time.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Wol Euler: heh
genesis Zhangsun: Ok so re trust what do you think Three
genesis Zhangsun: is it and/or
genesis Zhangsun: wb Pema
Fael Illyar: wb Pema
Wol Euler: wb pema
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Pema
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Pema Pera grumbles at tantalizingly slow internet connection . . . .
genesis Zhangsun: I would say to what you said Three that it is both
Threedee Shepherd: functionally it is usually and/or. It is nice be hard to be in the place where I trust that *I* can deal with it if someone else says something critical or demeaning, even if unintended
Threedee Shepherd: *nice but hard
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Wol Euler: I think it has to be both to be really "trust".
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Moon!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Moon Fargis: whoow fullhouse
Fael Illyar: Hi Moon :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: What does it take to be in a place where you can trust that, Three?
Corvuscorva Nightfire tries to think of how she could get to that place
Naoko Oanomochi: Greetuings Moon
Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
Wol Euler: hello moon
Adelene Dawner purrs at Moon.
Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
Threedee Shepherd: Growing up: Although the German saying (translated) applies: Too soon old, Too late smart.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Moon and tosses him a lolli.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oook
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Susi
Wol Euler: hello susi
genesis Zhangsun: yes and how does trust work in the virtual space?
Fael Illyar: Hi Susi :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Susi
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: is the same as in RL?
Moon Fargis: ^_^ *Nahm Nahm Nahm!* ^_^
Susi Alcott: hi gensis
Susi Alcott: hi all
Threedee Shepherd: I think we have touched on this in a previous session that might be found for searching for "I don't give a shit" ^.^
genesis Zhangsun: ?

Just had to make sure I heard correctly...I was aware that Threedee could be blunt but ouch! 

Threedee Shepherd: Excuse me, very explicitely for the present hour, this IS my RL
Gaya Ethaniel giggles
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Three...who is being very.....blunt.
Gaya Ethaniel: 'tis ok Threedee
Fael Illyar: Yep, every moment spent in SL, is your RL :)
Naoko Oanomochi giggles and agrees with Three
Adelene Dawner chuckles and whispers to Three: I am *such* a bad influence, hmm?

 Yes Adelene bad influence ;)

Corvuscorva Nightfire shakes her head...and thinks about bluntness and it's value.
Threedee Shepherd: yup
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Faenik: ah :)
genesis Zhangsun: well thats an interesting way to "build trust" by saying you don't give a shit
Threedee Shepherd: well, I consider that when I refer to myself, it is ok to be blunt ^.^
Moon Fargis: maybe give it candy
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think...that I need to build in a little more bluntness.
Susi Alcott: ty Moon
Fael Illyar: does this bluntness equal straight to the point?
Threedee Shepherd: That is a cute way of restating the Buddhist concept that desire leads to suffering
Wol Euler: ah
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..my thought is..I'd like to be more straight to the point.
Wol Euler: thank you for the footnotes :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods....it is indeed.
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you Threedee for your trust in me to be yourself incl being blunt as you are ^^
Threedee Shepherd: :)
Becka Finesmith: Halllooooo
Becka Finesmith: :)
Threedee Shepherd: I think it can be restated that I am old enough not to know better.
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Fael.

At this point Moon began distributing some "rainbow cupcakes," and the script joined in on our conversation. Yum, yum. 

Becka Finesmith enjoys the warm, straight from the oven Rainbow Cupcake, yummy !
Becka Finesmith: Mmmm Thank you Moon.
Fael Illyar didn't like being at the edge, so she moved.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Moon Fargis: ^^
Becka Finesmith takes another bite of the Rainbow Cupcake.
Wol Euler: cuddle as being :)
Threedee Shepherd: others have more to say about trust, from any point of view?
Becka Finesmith takes the last nibble of the Rainbow Cupcake and wipes away any crumbs from their lips.
Moon Fargis gave you Rainbow Cupcake.
Wol Euler: "It's difficult but getting easier"
Gaya Ethaniel: I have recently revised my view on trust...
genesis Zhangsun enjoys the warm, straight from the oven Rainbow Cupcake, yummy !
Wol Euler tickles moon
Moon Fargis giggles
genesis Zhangsun takes another bite of the Rainbow Cupcake.
Wol Euler: ty :)
Wol Euler enjoys the warm, straight from the oven Rainbow Cupcake, yummy !
Corvuscorva Nightfire: How, Gaya?
Susi Alcott: trust is a choice
Gaya Ethaniel: Before I was looking for something that doesn't exist... 'perfect' trust but we come with failings and make mistakes at times
Fael Illyar: Hi Solo :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Solobill!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...
Wol Euler: hello solo
Naoko Oanomochi: Greetings
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Bill.
genesis Zhangsun takes the last nibble of the Rainbow Cupcake and wipes away any crumbs from their lips.
Susi Alcott: hi solo
Solobill Laville: Hi, all!
Wol Euler takes another bite of the Rainbow Cupcake.
Naoko Oanomochi petpets Moon
Moon Fargis: ^^
Naoko Oanomochi: Ohh thank you:D
Gaya Ethaniel: So I've decided to trust myself as long as I do my best and apply same to others
Wol Euler takes the last nibble of the Rainbow Cupcake and wipes away any crumbs from their lips.
Moon Fargis: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...
Gaya Ethaniel: Rather than feel down when such mistakes happen
Faenik loves wells!
Fael Illyar: Yes, trust is a choice to accept what follows, whatever it may be.
Faenik giggles. that tickles.
Faenik giggles. that tickles.
Fael Illyar enjoys the warm, straight from the oven Rainbow Cupcake, yummy !
Faenik giggles. that tickles.
Fael Illyar scratches Moon behind the ear.
Faenik: ^^
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Moon Fargis purrzzzzzzzzz
Fael Illyar takes another bite of the Rainbow Cupcake.
Fael Illyar takes the last nibble of the Rainbow Cupcake and wipes away any crumbs from their lips.
Solobill Laville enjoys the warm, straight from the oven Rainbow Cupcake, yummy !
Moon Fargis giggles
Solobill Laville takes another bite of the Rainbow Cupcake.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: You started by talking about whether one can trust to speak or to listen.
Solobill Laville: (thx, Moon)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I was thinking about who I trust to speak to and why.
Solobill Laville takes the last nibble of the Rainbow Cupcake and wipes away any crumbs from their lips.
Threedee Shepherd: yes, and why we do not trust everyone?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and realizing that I trust to speak to those who DO listen..
Susi Alcott: essential
Wol Euler: ah!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that some are better at not guiding...

I completely agree with Corvi...I tend to distrust the counsel of a friend when it involves telling me how they are going to help me "fix" it and then launch into a "strategy" without spending much time listening.

Moon Fargis nods
Fael Illyar: Well, we naturally prefer getting what we want.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: more skilled at it.
Gaya Ethaniel enjoys the warm, straight from the oven Rainbow Cupcake, yummy !
Corvuscorva Nightfire: allowing me to grow as I will.
Gaya Ethaniel: ty Moon ^^
Moon Fargis: ^^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: maybe offering interesting ideas *smiles at Fael*
Fael Illyar: So, to get what we want, we pick and choose who we trust.
Gaya Ethaniel takes another bite of the Rainbow Cupcake.
Adelene Dawner: like not-doing, Corvi?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but not judging and not trying to make me go in a direction.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Adelene.;
Threedee Shepherd: There is a saying I once heard: "I can plant the seed, I can fertilize and water,but I can't make the plants grow."
Gaya Ethaniel takes the last nibble of the Rainbow Cupcake and wipes away any crumbs from their lips.
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Becka Finesmith: But is trust something we give freely or grant to those we feel worthy of it?
Susi Alcott: _/!\_ to that threedee
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Three.
Susi Alcott: or is it the choice based on 'pass' or the choice based on heart
Susi Alcott: meaning that if one let's the pass desappointments to effect
Threedee Shepherd: 'pass" ??? I miss the point
Fael Illyar: past
Susi Alcott: that may be bad choice meeting the new person
Moon Fargis: trust is sadly like a contact lense, once you losse it its hard to get it back, so take care of the trust others gave you ans apreciate it
Wol Euler: !
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Naoko Oanomochi giggles at the phrase-mind if I pinch that...it seems modern and fitting
Susi Alcott: is there something for the person oneself to do that the other person do trust ?
Fael Illyar: and also, trust tends to be limited to certain kinds of things with each person.
Faenik: ah :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Yes, Susi...there are things people do that add to trust for me.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: at least trust to talk.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It helps if they can set aside their own issues...sometimes what I need to talk about hits a nerve...is frightening...reminds them of something else.
Moon Fargis: so then.... someone wants to create a golden sentence of triust ?:)
Moon Fargis: trust
Susi Alcott: you mean that they trust to talk to U or U trust to talk them ?
Wol Euler: oh yes, people's fear and pain buttons get pushed easily and surprisingly in conversation
Corvuscorva Nightfire: if it's too hard for them...I don't want to talk aobut it. Which can be ok..I've lots of people to talk to.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and sometimes I trust one to talk about one thing, and another to talk about something else.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm not sure if or why or how people trust me to talk to...though some do.
Susi Alcott: so would it be in the end, that it is not a question if we trust to the other person, but if we trust to ourself J?
Gaya Ethaniel: Lots of people to talk to and different things to talk with different people... how do you remember all this Corvi?
Solobill Laville: to moon: Trust is the ore from which the currency of social exchange is minted
Corvuscorva Nightfire glances at Gaya...who knows..I am, after all, quite amess.
Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, I agree we need to make loving allowances for others" frailties (buttons).
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Fael Illyar smiles.
Gaya Ethaniel: mm... not a mess... no
Susi Alcott: cor, can U take that it can be trust also to be in silence ?
Susi Alcott: or do you take that only to speak is to trust ?
Corvuscorva Nightfire considers...can you elaborate on the question?
Gaya Ethaniel: I have found as with compassion, trust starts from oneself, within
Threedee Shepherd: Solo, is it appropriate to consider different levels or types of social exchange, and trust?
Faenik: indeed?
Solobill Laville: But trust is inherently riskier than compassion, Gaya, as it supposes something to lose
Gaya Ethaniel: yes love and trust are fragile

 I wondered if this was really true...does trust presuppose something to lose.  People talk about building trust, gaining someone's trust...and yet at the same time if I really think about I think the people whom I consider to have "gained" my trust...I trusted right from the beginning and very rare to think of a person that I didn't trust at all when I met then who then later "gained my trust."

Susi Alcott: as there are also many events that ppl can feel so much trust that they do not need to use words
Gaya Ethaniel: (in that sense)
Threedee Shepherd: Compassion does have something to lose if personal ego is involved, I think
Solobill Laville: Off the cuff I don't think so, Three, what types of levels were you thinking?
Fael Illyar: Can that be called Compassion then, Three?
Threedee Shepherd: "contract law"
Susi Alcott: did you cor now understand my question ?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..thinking
Moon Fargis: what a lag
Threedee Shepherd: Well, it might be nice to be enlightened, but until then I doubt I or anyone can be totally altruistic.
Wol Euler muses. "Authenticity" is a terribly new-age word, but it is central to the reason I trust people (when I think of examples in my life)
Solobill Laville: contract law may be a bit less "social contract" and more asset/ownership contract, to my mind at least (at the moment)
Solobill Laville: (wow there's a lot of threads...) :)
Wol Euler doesn't envy the GoC
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps, Solo, but I am more likely to lend you $100 (on faith) than $100,000.
Moon Fargis: solo, take it !:)
Solobill Laville: but a social contract doesn't presuppose a monetary of asset transaction
Wol Euler: heheheh
Solobill Laville: oh, yeah, can I have the $100?

 Be careful what you wish for Solobill or you might actually get it!

Solobill Laville: *or asset
Gaya Ethaniel prefers 'doing one's best' than 'being enlightened'
Solobill Laville: ha!!!
Wol Euler: agreed, it is our agreement to behave "decently" to each other in the first place. What we then _do_ arises out of that
Solobill Laville: (Three just paid me L$100)
Wol Euler laughs
Gaya Ethaniel: ^^ me too me too
Gaya Ethaniel: a joke...
Solobill Laville: Susi....(just paid me $100 too)
Gaya Ethaniel giggles. Thanks for $100 Fael
Moon Fargis: solo: ahh then 29900L$ left :)
Wol Euler: drinks are on you then, bill?
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles..don't tell!
Threedee Shepherd: I just received two L$100
Solobill Laville: too funny...
Wol Euler: hehehehe
Susi Alcott: even more because solo gave that back
Threedee Shepherd: Gee did someone once say, Gien and you shall receive...."
Moon Fargis: xlexchange gets envy
Moon Fargis: sl
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks this is fun...
Wol Euler nods. that's exactly how it works, threedee
Gaya Ethaniel thinks trust also goes around...
Threedee Shepherd: and another L$100
Susi Alcott: o.k. solo, I give up
Faenik: なるほど^^
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Thank you Adele
Naoko Oanomochi looks confused
Threedee Shepherd: Gee, perhaps we should have a PaB donation box?
Naoko Oanomochi: Thank you Corvi
Solobill Laville smiles at Susi
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Gaya
Fael Illyar smiles.
Naoko Oanomochi is confused at the money thing
Naoko Oanomochi: Thanks Wol
Wol Euler smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
Susi Alcott: ment for fun
Fael Illyar: sounds like L$100 flying around :)
Becka Finesmith: I just invested it and earned 6% ;)
Fael Illyar notes with interest that L$1 is enough to keep her from buying things unless she really like them.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: no fair!!!!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Becka Finesmith: lol
Wol Euler: heheh
Solobill Laville: Good investment these days...
Gaya Ethaniel smiles at Wol
Wol Euler: actually, I had an example of this in RL the other morning,
Corvuscorva Nightfire: you did?
Fael Illyar: and that I just gave away L$100 expecting nothing for it :P
Faenik: could be
Threedee Shepherd: I will need to find a worthy cause to donate all this money too :)
Wol Euler: I arrived at the cash register of the local grocery store without my wallet.
Wol Euler: rather than grumbling at the 3.25 I didn't have, the owner GAVE ME 6.75 and said "there, you owe us a tenner"

Talk about "social currency" :) 

Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Naoko Oanomochi: Wow, that is very nice:D
Solobill Laville: That is a smart business owner
Threedee Shepherd: nice
Wol Euler: right!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Fael Illyar smiles 'Would shop there more often.'
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..
Wol Euler: well, I hve been shopping there every other day for 15 years :-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's a good business model.
Wol Euler: I'm a good risk.
Solobill Laville: Moon kindly suggests a worthy cause...
Wol Euler: but still ...

Another round of donations started with Moon's hikari "kettle/pot?" sorry clueless 

Wol Euler: oh yse! good idea.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Three.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. The owner must have been kind also, not just being smart perhaps
Moon Fargis: _/!\_ *Moon fargis* thanks everyone who keeps up the health of hikari
Solobill Laville: Yes, I think both Gaya
Threedee Shepherd: Interesting we found a *Playful* way to make trust palpable ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Solobill Laville: yes!
Fael Illyar smiles.
Solobill Laville: That would be an intereseting experiment to just keep handing around the til...adding money as it goes
Threedee Shepherd: That's what they do in certain churches
Gaya Ethaniel: ty Moon
Moon Fargis: giving coockies for money?
Naoko Oanomochi: ty for de cookie:D
Wol Euler smiles and wipes her lips
Wol Euler: and hovers
Solobill Laville: Right, but in SL, the money is in all intents yours, that is a good measure of trust indeed :)
Becka Finesmith: are we trusting moon by eating these cookies?
Solobill Laville: hehe
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ^^
genesis Zhangsun: Well I must be off
Wol Euler: we are drinking the koolaid.
genesis Zhangsun: goodbye everyone
Solobill Laville: Bye, GEn
genesis Zhangsun: nice to see such a full house

Indeed this was the most attended meeting I think I have ever been too and what a lovely treat to see so many newcomers and oldschoolers :) 

Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Faenik: なるほど^^
Wol Euler: bye gen, enjoy the evening
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Gaya Ethaniel: I must go also
Fael Illyar: see you later Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: There is an event at the Kira Cafe
Becka Finesmith: Bye Genesis. I must be going to.
genesis Zhangsun: if anyone is interested
Naoko Oanomochi: Bye Gen and Gaya
genesis Zhangsun: Bye All
Gaya Ethaniel: Have a good day/night everyone ^^
Wol Euler: what's on?
Naoko Oanomochi: Bye Becka
Wol Euler: bye gaya, bye becka
genesis Zhangsun: A Kira Alumni giving a talk
genesis Zhangsun: about science in context
Solobill Laville: In English?
Susi Alcott: see you Becka
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye Becka.
genesis Zhangsun: English
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: yay
genesis Zhangsun: sorry Adelene I am going to have to get up :)
Solobill Laville: Science has context, WHAT??? ;)
Fael Illyar somehow can't keep track of who's going.
Susi Alcott: see you gen
genesis Zhangsun: putting science in context ;)
genesis Zhangsun: See you Susi
Wol Euler: ah
Naoko Oanomochi: Bye all who leave
Becka Finesmith: I might go listen Genesis. Thanks for the heads up :)
Becka Finesmith: Bye everyone
genesis Zhangsun: bye Becka
Fael Illyar: See you later, who's going :)
Solobill Laville: BYe, all, I'm off too.
Wol Euler: bye solo, bye fael