2008.11.03 13:00 - Just Look to the Side

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    Stim was the guardian on call, this afternoon. He sent me the chatlog, which I, Pema, posted. I also provided the title.

    Stim Morane: Hi Adams
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Stim :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello adams, stim
    Adams Dubrovna: hello Wol :)
    Stim Morane: Well, this is a quorum. What shall we talk about?
    Adams Dubrovna suddenly has no idea of where to start
    Stim Morane: The new building?
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Adams Dubrovna thinks it is very nice :)
    Stim Morane: I haven't had time to really take in the space yet
    Wol Euler: I find it a bit exposed somehow, with the open back...
    Stim Morane: But it's certainly open and clear
    Wol Euler: I'm not really comfortable sitting like this.
    Adams Dubrovna: Come closer Wol and we'll watch your back :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Stim Morane: Is there a way to switch postures?
    Wol Euler: there are two poses in the cushions
    Adams Dubrovna: The brown are kneeling the blue are sitting
    Adams Dubrovna: A left click will toggle back and forth between male and female poses
    Stim Morane: that's better
    Wol Euler: ah
    Stim Morane: I see the "Listener Master"
    Adams Dubrovna: Well Stim, like a typical human I had to experiment a iittle before I fully understood/believed you
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello pema :)
    Stim Morane: Yes?
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, we are set up here to record very soon now.
    Stim Morane: Good
    Wol Euler: hello pema (and please continue, adams)
    Stim Morane: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Wol, Adams, Stim
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, I herded up my selves and think I got them under control and found out it made no difference as you said
    Adams Dubrovna: So I will just have to be patient
    Stim Morane: that's not a bad thing, is it?
    Adams Dubrovna: I remembered my original koan from pema. Who is impatient?
    Stim Morane: And your answer?
    Adams Dubrovna: It was desire
    Stim Morane: OK
    Pema Pera: Adams, is it okay to come back to the email you just sent me?
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, of course
    Pema Pera: I had mentioned my old saw, the movie metaphor, and you responded that you could see that the self was like a character in a movie, not real, but you found it hard to swallow that your material body might not be real, right?
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, do I have it all wrong?
    Pema Pera: no matter of right or wrong, Adams :-)
    Pema Pera: but let's look at matter
    Pema Pera: first from a physics point of view, deep down it is all quantum mechanical waves or perhaps further down strings or what have you . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . so any sense of solidity is how you experience it, not how it really *is*, even from a hard-nosed physics point of view -- wouldn't you say?
    Adams Dubrovna doesn't know the physics
    Adams Dubrovna: quantum mechanical waves?
    Stim Morane: the physics does not disprove the "solidity", it explains it
    Pema Pera: I would consider that at least a hint that matter might not be as "solid" as we thought in the 19th century
    Pema Pera: (alas, most people in the 21st century don't hear about this in school . . . very very sad)
    Adams Dubrovna's physics is still in the 18c
    Pema Pera: haha, one-up-century-ship!
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Pema Pera: but apart from that tidbit, yes, I really do think that this whole world that appears for us is not ultimately real
    Pema Pera: and just as relative to a certain choice of frame as a movie or a dream . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . but that may be hard to imagine?
    Wol Euler: I find it hard to see the ... usefulness say, of that idea.
    Pema Pera: oh, if you find yourself in the middle of a nightmare, and suddenly realize that you're dreaming -- isn't that useful ?!?
    Wol Euler: granted.
    Pema Pera: realizing it is only a dream, and then enjoying it from there on?
    Pema Pera: same here, really
    Pema Pera: but of course you have to feel that rather than just consider the idea, see it in some direct way
    Pema Pera: for it to make real sense and to make a real difference
    Wol Euler: but I cannot experience or see that at all.
    Stim Morane: :)
    Wol Euler: knowing that neither me nor the wall is solid does not help me walk through it.
    Stim Morane: Yes, as I said earlier, physics does not dispell solidity, it explains it and clarifies its nature
    Stim Morane: the same applies to the realization of Being.
    Pema Pera: well, you think that, because you have identified with the story you are playing part of -- and in the story evolution drives everything, and it is evolutionarily advantageous not to waste energy on considering this all to be like a dream -- would that make sense, as a hypothesis at least?
    Stim Morane: Being doesn't show ordinary life to be an illusion.
    Pema Pera: (reply to Wol's "I cannot experience/see it")
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Wol Euler: no, pema, I think that because my hand hurts when I try to put it into the next room
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pema Pera: My hypothesis in short is: Wol and All *can* see but have learned to think she cannot see, early on in life -- so let's see how we can regain sight; might be quite simple!
    Pema Pera: (I was replying to a different line, Wol, above)
    Stim Morane: the traditions of contemplative insight sometimes say life etc is an illusion, but that word is only used in certain contexts and is not meant to dismiss ordinary life and limits
    Adams Dubrovna: I have a better grasp for what Stim is saying; it fits the reality I have experienced
    Wol Euler: ... which I can see and undesrtand.
    Adams Dubrovna: I can see my self and its ideas as illusionary
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: that's a somewhat different matter
    Pema Pera: yes, and I agree with Stim of course, but if we want to play as Being we can explore the relative nature of this realm we find ourselves in -- and that is what can give real freedom; Stim is responding to one way of misunderstanding what I said, but not disagreeing
    Stim Morane: that helps you come back to life as it is
    Stim Morane: True, Pema
    Stim Morane: But true freedom does not mean putting your hand through a wall.
    Wol Euler: the question of why the body being illusory bothers me more than the consciousness being illusory is a good one.
    Adams Dubrovna: Pema, I have an important question
    Pema Pera: if all you do while driving a car is staring right in front of you at the road and then say to your passenger: you may be able to see the landscape, but I can't -- then I will answer: yes, you can, just look to the side (but don't let go of the steering wheel).
    Pema Pera: This to Wol, in response to "I can't see" -- yes, you can!
    Pema Pera: Yes, Adams?
    Stim Morane: Yes. I refer to that as "having a neck"
    Stim Morane: You can look around.
    Adams Dubrovna: Noww that I have experienced the exhilaration and freedom of this space, does focusing on this relative nature help me or confuse me in that regard?
    Adams Dubrovna: Unfortuantely I have to go in a few minutes
    Stim Morane: Good question.
    Pema Pera: If you try to make that space fit into our normal world, you will neuter it -- or kill it and dry it and pin it up like a butterfly in a book
    Pema Pera: if you realize that our world is not all there is, THEN you can give room for Space to be something beyond the limits of this normally conceived world
    Pema Pera: (this is a more active place than the old pavilion !)
    Wol Euler: (indeed)
    Pema Pera: (not only pigeons coming to take a bath)
    Stim Morane: we seem to be in a thorough-fare
    Pema Pera: (but whole human avatars!)
    Adams Dubrovna: they are illusions :)
    Pema Pera: we're near the welcom area
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Wol Euler: hehehehe
    Stim Morane: yes
    Pema Pera: Did I address your question, Adams?
    Adams Dubrovna: various times, I have accept some things in "faith" in order to work on toher things I yet do not understand. I may have to put this there
    Adams Dubrovna: Sometimes it seems head spinning
    Pema Pera: or accept is as a "working hypothesis"
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, better way to put it, thanks
    Pema Pera: neither believing nor disbelieving, but to be held for a while to check it out
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Adams Dubrovna: RL is calling. Thank you all. bye :)
    Wol Euler: bye adams, take care.
    Stim Morane: Bye, Adams
    Pema Pera: I'll have to leave to, to the Dutch evening in the Kira Cafe
    Stim Morane: Ye
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Wol Euler: ah,right.
    Pema Pera: see you, Wol and Stim!
    Stim Morane: I will be going also
    Wol Euler: bye for now, pema
    Wol Euler: oh well.
    Wol Euler: bye stim too
    Pema Pera: And feel free to listen to Dutch, Wol, if you like :-)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Wol Euler: mmmm, I'll ive that a miss tonight.
    Wol Euler: 3-day trip to Munich tomorrow,, I have to pack
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Stim Morane: OK, good. See you another time!
    Wol Euler: I probably won'T be here until again until my Friday 1 am
    Pema Pera: see you then, Wol!
    Wol Euler: bye, take care
    Pema Pera: And don't try to walk through walls in the mean time :-)
    Wol Euler: lol
    Stim Morane: :)
    Wol Euler: we will continue this, pema.
    Pema Pera: I hope it was clear that my response was to the previous line, not to the line of walls!
    Pema Pera: (lag in SL can be hazardous for your healt in RL, obviously!!)
    Wol Euler nods and smiles
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Stim Morane: Bye
    Wol Euler: bye all
    Stim Morane: See you later, Wol!
    Wol Euler: good night, stim, take care
    Stim Morane: You too!
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