2008.11.03 19:00 - Why wait?

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    Threedee was the guardian for the evening. The log was posted by Adelene, and the comments are hers.


    Adelene Dawner: Hullo, Steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Ade
    Adelene Dawner: oo, cape ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, a party leftover
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, first time here, is this fountain adjustable?
    Adelene Dawner: Not that I know of.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, maybe that will be my comment
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s like a centerpiece that you need to move out of the way to see the person across from you
    Adelene Dawner: mm.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but the building is marvelous
    Adelene Dawner: It is particle-based, so you could just turn off particles in your client - but it would be friendlier to have it be adjustable. I can script it, if Storm wants.
    stevenaia Michinaga: and difference between the red and blue pillows?
    Adelene Dawner: animation, I think.
    stevenaia Michinaga: any

    Geo Netizen arrived, and joined me on my cushion.

    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ smart Geo ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Geo
    Geo Netizen: Ah … I do so love that purrrr …
    Geo Netizen: Hi Steve, Hi Ade
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    stevenaia Michinaga: ..turning up the sound
    stevenaia Michinaga: hear it now...smiles
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Geo Netizen lovingly strokes his favorite lion :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: good cats , Geo?
    Adelene Dawner nuzzles Geo's hand.
    stevenaia Michinaga: my rl cat just came for a visit
    Geo Netizen: There is something special about Panthera leo …
    Adelene Dawner grins.
    Geo Netizen: O ... the little ones are nice too
    Adelene Dawner: So, any interesting topics for today?
    Bell: *ding*

    Corvi and Three arrived.

    Geo Netizen: I talk too much … my plan is to listen tonight :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: topics... it;s been a long day.. may be the time change, I'm open
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello all
    stevenaia Michinaga: haha, Geo, we all have our moments
    Geo Netizen: Hi 3D … so good to see you again.
    Adelene Dawner: Hullo Corvi, Three.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Aw, Geo...I like what you say!
    Geo Netizen: hi Corvi ... :))))
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Adelene.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Three
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Threedee, Stevenia
    stevenaia Michinaga: you guy going to pile it on?
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi folks
    Threedee Shepherd: Is autologging now happening?
    Adelene Dawner: I haven't seen an announcement, so I assume no.
    stevenaia Michinaga: you know your paws are getting wet, Three
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ade's too.
    Geo Netizen: _^^_
    Adelene Dawner: Eh, not the end ofthe world.
    Threedee Shepherd: cooling
    Threedee Shepherd: what's "being"?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: little b?
    Adelene Dawner: Well, I've tired myself out moving furniture around and still have to clean off the bed so I have a place to sleep...
    Threedee Shepherd: BBB
    Threedee Shepherd: bbb
    Adelene Dawner: ('sall good. I'm getting ready for a new computer!)
    Geo Netizen: ?BBB?
    Threedee Shepherd: Corvi asked big or little B
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: right
    Threedee Shepherd: I replied, either
    Geo Netizen: O ...
    stevenaia Michinaga: well we are being Beings, and Being Beings
    stevenaia Michinaga: to be or not
    Geo Netizen: Tis nobler to suffer …
    stevenaia Michinaga: that too
    Corvuscorva Nightfire refuses to speculate on the data.
    Geo Netizen laughs
    Threedee Shepherd: I learned an interesting exercise at a workshop this weekend
    Threedee Shepherd: It had two components
    stevenaia Michinaga: ...listens
    Geo Netizen nods
    Threedee Shepherd: First, imagine the last instant before your calm and unpainful death (say sitting in a chair or bed).
    Threedee Shepherd: You know you are about to die, no question. In that last moment, what are you thinking.
    Geo Netizen listens
    Threedee Shepherd: I'm waiting for answers
    stevenaia Michinaga: raises hand
    Adelene Dawner has no idea...
    Geo Netizen: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: steve?
    Geo Netizen: How about … O … I finally get an answer on what 0L is … :))
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: huh....I thought, oh good! I'm done!
    Adelene Dawner chuckles at Geo.
    Threedee Shepherd: OL?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: zeroth life
    Geo Netizen nods
    Adelene Dawner: 0th life is to 1st life as 1st life is to 2nd life, Three.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, in comfy chair, probably as open as I ever was to my surroundings, more outside in than inside out
    Threedee Shepherd: oh, anything else
    Geo Netizen nods again
    Geo Netizen: I seem to have warped sever young minds :)
    Geo Netizen: -several-
    stevenaia Michinaga: Geo, I sence a recurring theme
    Geo Netizen laughs
    Lion Head: Alarm On
    Lion Head: Alarm Off
    Threedee Shepherd: Ok, Corvi, let's go with that. My answer was a calmness and no more striving
    Bell: *ding*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...
    stevenaia Michinaga: I thought I said that :)
    Threedee Shepherd: many people at the workshop reported a kind of accepting calmness, even joy at the ease of it all. So, see if that resonated with you in any way.
    Adelene Dawner: So... why wait?
    Geo Netizen: To sleep … perchance to dream … ah there’s the rub
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: accepting...but not calm, excited...pleased, relieved.
    Adelene Dawner nudges Geo.
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, here is why. Now imagine stretching that feeling of the last 1/10th of the last moment back to the equivalent of the full moment--just do it ^.^
    Geo Netizen nodes "I see the point ..."
    stevenaia Michinaga: full moment?
    Threedee Shepherd: and continue to feel the same acceptance (or calmness or whatever) now also magnified and stretched out
    Geo Netizen: Into the present
    Threedee Shepherd: ah, he knew the secret :)
    Adelene Dawner: That was what I meant by 'why wait' - why wait 'till the last second to do that? Does it matter if you're going to die in a second or a minute or a day or a decade?
    stevenaia Michinaga: agreed
    Threedee Shepherd: just keep repeating the process and then the last time, stretch all the way back into the present, YES ^,^
    Geo Netizen nods and smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: simialr to you and your 3 fifes, geo, the are all the same to me
    Threedee Shepherd: no need to wait, however it was important to "capture" the feelings which seem so natural in that last moment.
    stevenaia Michinaga: lifes
    Geo Netizen: /md nods "Yes it would seem so"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...not an easy thing to imagine out to here.
    Adelene Dawner: Well, that's why I said I didn't know what I'd be thinking - I spend a lot of time in that state already, and there's a lot of variance within it!
    Threedee Shepherd: The second form was to imagine a time of great pleasure and the way you felt in the last moment of it before something "intruded" and then perform the same exercise, for the same basic reason.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think if you can get to the sence of that last moment feeling, you can bring it back to now
    Threedee Shepherd: exactly the point, Steve
    Geo Netizen: We can feed selected emotions …
    Adelene Dawner: This ... isn't quite that, Geo.
    Geo Netizen: And those grow and other atrophy
    Geo Netizen: But feelings ... ?
    Adelene Dawner: There's an emotional component, I'm sure... but... that feeling, that mindstate... emotions arise *within* it.
    Threedee Shepherd: I am using emotions and feelings loosely, here
    Geo Netizen nods
    Threedee Shepherd: Using mindstate at the outset would have been good.
    Adelene Dawner: That place of being doing just this... 'this' can be 'feeling sad' or 'feeling angry' or even 'worrying'... but you're just there, just doing that.
    Geo Netizen node again thoughtfully
    Geo Netizen: But still, aren’t we talking about capturing a certain mindset and feeding it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sustaining it
    Geo Netizen nodes
    Adelene Dawner: "If you have to think about it, you're doing it wrong."
    Threedee Shepherd: So, when it was over, I had a question arise from deep within, something like this: Yes, I I could capture that calm pre-death mindstate--the it's over part, too, Corvi--and stretch it back inot the present, would I ever be motivated to get anything done?
    Threedee Shepherd: into
    Geo Netizen: But if there is no conscious effort aren’t we adrift?
    Adelene Dawner: Mindstates are tricky things. But recognizing the various ones can be very useful for metagility purposes.
    Adelene Dawner: Geo - what's wrong with being adrift? Three - you might be surprised ^.^
    Geo Netizen nods
    Adelene Dawner: I have a relevant story ^.^
    Geo Netizen listens
    Threedee Shepherd: before your story a tangent>:
    Adelene Dawner: Go ahead, Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: <tangent> death is the ultimate wu wei experience.
    Adelene Dawner: Indeed.
    Adelene Dawner: Now, as to motivation...
    Bell: *ding*
    Adelene Dawner: I think most of you are aware that I've been snuffling around the idea of moving out, getting some space, getting away from a relationship that hasn't been working very well for a while now.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Adelene Dawner: I did wind up talking to BF about that... he was predictably unhappy and has made a noticable effort to fix some of the things that he's been making problems of. It has gotten better here, and there's no current push for me to move - nothing's happening to make me want that, and I haven't 'attached' to the idea... it will, or won't, whatever.
    Adelene Dawner: However.
    Adelene Dawner: It still occured to me to check out the real estate pages on Sunday, and when I'm shopping, thoughts about saving money still arise with no prompting from me. Both of those are extremely unusual even if there is some reason for me to do them.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Geo Netizen tilts head and listens …
    Adelene Dawner: So, there's not this constant tape in my head going 'I need to move out, I need to do X to move out, I need to do Y to move out'... but those things are happening anyway. Fascinating to watch, actually.
    Geo Netizen: Ah .. Wu-Wei ?
    Adelene Dawner: Or something very like it. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: I'm not *trying* to do wu wei though. I suspect it would stop working if I did.
    Threedee Shepherd: better still an oxymoron "wu wei motivation"
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Geo Netizen: Is it wu-wei if you try :)
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Threedee Shepherd: as the the wu wei you can seek is not the wei?
    Threedee Shepherd: as in
    Adelene Dawner grins toothily at Three. ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Hey, how many times in my life will I get to make that bad pun and be understood ;)
    Adelene Dawner: Getting to that point of honestly not caring is hard though, and it seems to be necessary.
    Geo Netizen: Wu-wei also implies action that is spontaneous, natural, and effortless ...
    Geo Netizen: That seem to be what you’re describing at the moment Ade.
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, exactly.
    Threedee Shepherd: for that moment to be the opposite of depression is the achievement
    Adelene Dawner: hm, Three?
    Threedee Shepherd: when deeply depressed, not caring, not worring about not caring, is a major "symptom" and this kind of not caring is the opposite of that
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i see
    Adelene Dawner: Different kind of 'caring', I think.
    Threedee Shepherd: exactly
    Geo Netizen: Wu-wei, I think, does not imply ‘not caring’
    Adelene Dawner must afk for a minute.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: k
    Geo Netizen: We heed the intelligence of our whole body, not only our brain.
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed, not striving, not attached to, just is-ing
    Geo Netizen: /md nods
    Geo Netizen nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: the more i read about tao, the more sence it makes, I didn;t realize your space "poem" from last week was from that Ade
    Bell: *ding*
    Adelene Dawner is here.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wb
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: [19:42] Geo Netizen: We heed the intelligence of our whole body, not only our brain. -- Yes.
    Geo Netizen nods "Yes ... I see what you mean"

    Rowan arrived.

    Adelene Dawner: Hullo, Ro :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Rowan!
    Geo Netizen: we must be quiet and watchful, learning to listen to both our own inner voices and to the voices of our environment in a non-interfering, receptive manner.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Rowan
    Rowan Masala: hi all
    Geo Netizen: Hi Rowan
    Threedee Shepherd: a partial metaphor. When I taught I often used the metaphor that just as the stomach is the organ of digestion, the brain is the organ of the mind. Now I might say, If the brain is the organ of the mind, perhaps the body is its console.
    Threedee Shepherd: hi rowan
    Adelene Dawner: ... say more, Three?
    Threedee Shepherd: the console of the organ includes the ksyboard, pedal stops -- its inputs, that are as integral as the innards ofr the output pipes
    Threedee Shepherd: innards or the
    Adelene Dawner: Well, the body is the input *and* output pipes, really.
    Rowan Masala nods
    Rowan Masala: but digestion is a function, so wouldn't the analogy be more like the brain is the organ of thought?
    Threedee Shepherd: ahh Rowan, the question of are thought and mind different things? I'm not sure.
    stevenaia Michinaga: and thought is.... what? the engine consciousness?
    Geo Netizen: Or does the brain contain all that is the mind perhaps?
    Rowan Masala: agreed, but I think the analogy lacks parallelism unless you say thought
    Threedee Shepherd: sorry Steve, I should have said "the question of whether thought, mind, and consciousness are different things ;)
    Geo Netizen nods
    Threedee Shepherd: we can also mix into that *stew* of semi-synonyms, the word/concept *self*
    Rowan Masala nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you must
    Rowan Masala: I would agree that the brain is the organ of thought, but I could not do so with consciousness or self
    Geo Netizen: But aren’t self and consciousness equivalent?
    Geo Netizen nods
    Threedee Shepherd: Rowan are you suggesting *soul* ?
    Rowan Masala: I don't know, I'm just not comfortable with placing the self or consciousness entirely within the brain
    stevenaia Michinaga: elf only deserves a tiny corner of this conversation
    stevenaia Michinaga: self
    Threedee Shepherd: Nor am I, I said it was a loose analogy, because I prefer the term brain/body (or body/brain)
    Threedee Shepherd: elf was a better description than typo
    Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
    Rowan Masala laughs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and pulls Three's tail
    Geo Netizen: Looking at the mind as only what can be measured in FL, as the brain…
    Rowan Masala: yeah, I think even brain/body isn't inclusive enough for me. I just don't know that that is all t here is
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: urk
    Geo Netizen: Is not that like trying to look at the behavior of av’s only within the confines of SL?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there are so many undefined unknowable ideas here.
    Rowan Masala nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or they seem unknowable to me.
    Threedee Shepherd: I don't either, but I have little (perhaps) no gfood evidence for more. Or to put it another way, there is no question based on observation and introspection that I have, that requires more (yet).
    Geo Netizen: Unknowable scientifically ...
    Bell: *ding*
    Threedee Shepherd: I'm not asking for "science" rather "pragmatic phenomenology"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh...witching hour for me....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: night all.
    Threedee Shepherd: night Corvi
    Geo Netizen: Experience ?
    Rowan Masala: night Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: night corvi
    Geo Netizen: Goodnight Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off, nice 1st time here
    Rowan Masala nods
    Threedee Shepherd: Well folks, we appear to have filled an hour with no-sensible sense, or is it sensible nonsense. In either case. I thank you, close the log, and say g'night :)
    Geo Netizen: I like the seoncd
    Rowan Masala: goodnight 3d
    Rowan Masala: goodnight Adelene, Geo, Steven
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, folks.
    Geo Netizen: Goodnight all ...I'll retire also
    Hester: goodnight everyone
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