2008.11.17 19:00 - A Balancing Act

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    Threedee was the guardian that afternoon. He sent me, Pema, the log, which I put up. I also provided the title.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Ade
    Adelene Dawner: Hiyo :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steverino, as the TV guy used to say :D
    stevenaia Michinaga: it comes up now and then
    Adelene Dawner: Television is like a really, really good screen saver.
    - Bill Machrone
    Threedee Shepherd: actually wasn't Hi yo, st...
    stevenaia Michinaga: my 4 year old neice once asked....are we like tv to god?
    stevenaia Michinaga: she actually grew up w/o tv
    stevenaia Michinaga: did Storm do the fountain "enhancement"
    Threedee Shepherd: wow, what a great question?
    Threedee Shepherd: not ? but !
    Adelene Dawner: Moon did it, Steve.
    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, I need to talk to that soul, he and I have a conversation we dd not complete... our hours do not overlap typically
    Rowan Masala: Hi all
    Adelene Dawner: Hullo
    Threedee Shepherd: Is that cloud you, Rowan?
    Rowan Masala: Thank you Adelene
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Rowan
    Adelene Dawner: I thought I'd friended you already, Ro. Don't know how I missed doing so.
    stevenaia Michinaga: Join us when youa re done, so you don;t crash
    Threedee Shepherd: I was not there last night. I am aware "something" happened. What?
    stevenaia Michinaga: a very long story
    Threedee Shepherd: come on, a pithy (not pissy) summary, please ^.^
    Rowan Masala: I can barely type--Adelene or Steve--can you fill 3d in?
    stevenaia Michinaga: one of our group was in need of support in a very personal way, and we, those present and guardian were discussing whether to psot the log
    stevenaia Michinaga: post
    stevenaia Michinaga: there were emails today off group
    stevenaia Michinaga: opinions differ adn Pema deferred to the Guardian o call
    stevenaia Michinaga: on
    Threedee Shepherd: So, can I address the core issue. Can a log be "redacted" by anyone in it, prior to posting, as a matter of procedure?
    Rowan Masala: what do you mean?
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems the guardian was unable
    stevenaia Michinaga: I wouldn't presume
    Rowan Masala: the guardian was unable to what?
    stevenaia Michinaga: edit the log and keep it cohearent
    stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t that what you were refering to Three
    stevenaia Michinaga: (I looked up redacted)
    stevenaia Michinaga: ...smile
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes. I wonder two things. It is a wiki that can be edited (though the original still is stored). And more generally can somone go "off the record", even after the fact. A bit of explanation can always explain any wierd gaps in the log.
    stevenaia Michinaga: it was a focused dialog, I couldn;t imagine what teh edited version would look like, as that is up to the guardian psoting the log
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, this gets interesting in a general way. The session is public. I note that some Guardians even put up long excerpts from the session in a blog. Is that not *OK*, if the official log does not contain those parts. Or to ask another way, if you put up part of a session on your blog, must you get permission from everyone first?
    Threedee Shepherd: for *a session
    stevenaia Michinaga: I have seen that in personal logs. if there is the possibility of another person's interest beng involved, why wouldn;t you get permission?
    Threedee Shepherd: The issue is presumption of privacy. *I* have always assumed that everything I say at a recorded meeting is public and can be posted anywhere without my permission.
    Adelene Dawner: Me too.
    stevenaia Michinaga: as a matter of simple courtesy
    Threedee Shepherd: *My* approach as a GoC is that my job is to edit typos and such, and nothing else except to add comments if I want to.
    Adelene Dawner: In fact, this came up with the autorecorder, and what Fael and Wol and I concluded with that was that we would give visitors the option of anonymity, but not the option of not being recorded, if they are here and participae.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I would agree regarding my comments as well, but as we ahve seen in Princeton, others may see their privacy differently
    Adelene Dawner: *participate
    Threedee Shepherd: NO, Princeton was NOT an official PaB, SL meeting. We have standard expectations here that if you don't want it quoted, don't say iot. Same for pictures.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but the conversations on line that followed did involve editing
    stevenaia Michinaga: I know as I was guardian for one
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, there IS some ambiguity about when some sessions end. If so then asking about those parts is appropriate before posting. I am careful to say when "the log is closed"
    stevenaia Michinaga: they there are instsances where individuals may be vulneralble and not be aware or concerens as to what is public and what their emotional state is at the time
    Adelene Dawner: They have many options in that situation other than coming to a PaB session.
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps, or perhaps not
    stevenaia Michinaga: they may be your options, not theirs
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s dificult to speak for others
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, I am not a "hard and fast" rule kind of guy. I go with "do the right thing". So, perhaps a GoC might want to ask a participant, before posting, if they realized they would be "quoted" and then accept the participant's answer.
    stevenaia Michinaga: the question which side do you err on
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, and that is much of what was dicussed and concluded
    Threedee Shepherd: Personally, I would defer to the person who said XYZ, as a matter of courtesy. However, I would not edit out without their permission.
    Adelene Dawner: Actually, the person *was* directly asked last night, and her 'yes' answer was still not considered enough to make it ok to post the blog.
    Threedee Shepherd: what do you want her to say, Yes, with whip cream and a cherry on top? If NO means NO, then YES means YES.
    Adelene Dawner nods at Three.
    stevenaia Michinaga: that is the commision of the guardian
    Adelene Dawner: ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: it is for them to decide
    Threedee Shepherd: and I am not talking about ANY particular session, just about letting people take responsibility for themselves. Anything else is an assumption that is just that, an assumption.
    stevenaia Michinaga: in some instances , it;s worth a second look with further thought
    Adelene Dawner: Do you mean that it's the GoC's to decide, Steve? And if so, on what grounds?
    Threedee Shepherd: So, I as GoC am allowed (expected?, intended?) to edit out tparts where I think someone is making a fool of themself, or *I* think their words put them in danger?
    stevenaia Michinaga: that is what Guardians do, post the log
    Adelene Dawner: Yes. So why is there any question about whether that log should be posted?
    Threedee Shepherd: Post the log is different form edit the log, or even comment on the log. Perhaps this needs a broader discussion among all guardians, via e-mail.
    stevenaia Michinaga: post or not post, we aren;t talkign about subsantial edits ehre
    stevenaia Michinaga: at least i wasn;t
    stevenaia Michinaga: Iw a suggesting it may not be possible to do substantial edits
    stevenaia Michinaga: so it wasn;t an option
    Threedee Shepherd: You mean *I* can decide, gee that was a lousy session, I will not post it? I doubt Pema interprets it that way, given how he hounds me when I am delinquent
    Adelene Dawner nods.
    Threedee Shepherd: And, what about when we finally activate autoposting?
    stevenaia Michinaga: interesting point, should there be guardians involved woth posting at that pont?
    stevenaia Michinaga: *with
    Threedee Shepherd: How about this scenario. X says something about Y (Y not even being a member of the group) that Y might find demeaning. The GoC wants to protect X and edit it out. But actually, X is HOPING Y sees it, as the only means of communicating it.
    stevenaia Michinaga: from what I read today with pema offering the last word, the option to post, in this instance, after speaking once again between guardian and the person in question was in the hands of the Guardian
    Threedee Shepherd: use disturbing instead of demeaning in the last sentences.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I have at times edited names out and left the comments
    stevenaia Michinaga: guardian's choice
    stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose anyone else could come and edit them abck in
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s the nature of the wiki
    stevenaia Michinaga: then their edits would be part of the wiki record
    Threedee Shepherd: Rowan, I have not seen any copy of the discussion last night. However, I do know it is claire who said "YES, post it". (I have had long conversation with Claire in the past.) Why do you want to go againstg her choice on this mattter?
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps context may be important in this case
    stevenaia Michinaga: that is what is being considered and perhaps a worthy consideration
    Threedee Shepherd: Alright, how about this. If a GoC asks, and the speaker say YES, post it, and the GoC still has worries, state them a day later to the speaker, and then abide by the speaker's wishes?
    stevenaia Michinaga: and the day has not yet pasted....
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed
    Rowan Masala: Forgive me, I just caught up with what you have been saying
    Threedee Shepherd: np
    stevenaia Michinaga: alot to catch up with
    Adelene Dawner rumbles. "I'm not sure, Steve and Three, that you are seeing the same kinds of context that I am here."
    Rowan Masala: Three, nobody made a fool of themselves last night, and it wasn't a lousy session
    Threedee Shepherd: ???
    stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t that the beauty of relativism
    Threedee Shepherd: I gather that.
    Threedee Shepherd: I was just using a silly example.
    Rowan Masala: The person in question told me just now that she stands by her original decision NOT to post the log
    Threedee Shepherd: I presume someone may have put themselves at risk, assuming a third party reads what was said.
    Rowan Masala: Yes, I think there was clear risk involved
    Rowan Masala: As I mentioned in my emails today, Google indexes that wiki
    Adelene Dawner: To someone who has been, or is, in an abusive situation, being asked the same question repeatedly can sound like being told "you gave me the wrong answer last time, and I'm going to pretend to respect you enough to listen to your opinion, but I'm really just going to keep asking 'till you give me the right answer, and what you want doesn't actually matter".
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, I did not know she changed her mind along the way, yesterday. Sounds like case closed
    Threedee Shepherd: except for what Ade just said
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps we should give the good guardian the benifit of the doubt here?
    Rowan Masala: Adelene, I understand that that can happen, but do you honestly think that's what happened here?
    Adelene Dawner sighs. "I'm not sure. But it seems likely that it at least could. It *really* depends on how she was approached."
    Rowan Masala: I have sent you and all others present last night a copy of the log
    Rowan Masala: of my discussion just now with her
    Adelene Dawner didn't get it.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. It may be slow tonight. I'll check again.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I will see you all soon, thanks
    Rowan Masala: I'm sure it will arrive shortly
    Threedee Shepherd: goodnight steve. I am GoC and wonder what people will think when I post THIS log?
    Rowan Masala: I appreciate your fierce protectiveness, Adelene, and your opening other ways of seeing things
    Adelene Dawner relaxes a little and purrs briefly at Rowan.
    Adelene Dawner: I could hardly be otherwise - I've walked through a similar place to where Claire is now.
    Rowan Masala: I have too, Adelene
    Threedee Shepherd: From a different angle, this particular shows that even when one wnats to do the right thing, it is not always obvious or agreed upon.
    Rowan Masala nods
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. It is a balancing act, in some ways...
    Rowan Masala: so it's always good to have lots of input and discussion
    Rowan Masala: goodnight 3D, Adelene
    Rowan Masala: be well
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Ro. :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Rowan, we are all fragile. One thing that has impressed me about the PaB session is how much the conversation facilitates exploration of any fragility in a non-judgemental way
    Rowan Masala nods
    Rowan Masala: yes
    Threedee Shepherd: g'night, Rowan :)
    Rowan Masala: but we need to remember that the world at large, and the web through which the world explores us, isn't always as non-judgemental
    Adelene Dawner: And as Pema pointed out, it makes it obvious that that fragility is normal - nothing to be ashamed of.
    Rowan Masala: yes
    Rowan Masala: goodnight
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Ro.
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: log is closed
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