2008.11.21 01:00 - Goals and paths

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    Wol Euler was guardian for (most of) this session. Thanks to Fael for carrying on when I left.

    I arrived a little early, and found Sonic already at the Playgoda -- sitting right where I'd last seen him on the previous evening.

    Wol Euler: good morning sonic, I hope you haven't been sitting here all night? :-) 
    Sonic Moonites: lol, nope just logged in now! 
    Sonic Moonites: how are you? 
    Wol Euler: could have used anohter hour of sleep, but otherwise fine :) 
    Wol Euler: had bacon and eggs for breakfast, now tea... 
    Wol Euler: and yourself? 
    Sonic Moonites: yup same really, except chocolate spread with toast 
    Wol Euler grins. Also a good thing. 
    Sonic Moonites: I find it more difficult discussing thing in play as being in the morning 
    Wol Euler nods. that may be why my sessions usually end up being chatty rather than philosophical 
    Sonic Moonites: well its a testament to morning psychology! 
    Wol Euler: mmhmm 
    Sonic Moonites: what country are you in? 
    Wol Euler: germany, and you? 
    Sonic Moonites: England...so i think your an hour behead(or behind!) 
    Sonic Moonites: ahead* 
    Sonic Moonites: behead, lol 
    Wol Euler: behind, I think. this is 10 am for me and 9 for you? 
    Sonic Moonites: yup 
    Wol Euler: well, whatever :) 
    Wol Euler: the roundness of the world still bemuses and confuses me 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah, i was thinking yesterday that if you were in a plane you could chase the sunset around the world 
    Wol Euler nods and smiles. Have to be a damned fast plane though -- or else very far north. At the north pole at midsummer you can do it on foot 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah that would be great...it makes the world seem very small to me though 


    Fael joins us, and the conversation turns to Tai Chi as a kind of meditation. 

    Wol Euler: good morning, fael 
    Sonic Moonites: mornign fael 
    Fael Illyar: Good morning, Wol, Sonic :) 
    Sonic Moonites: so i have recently started to try and do tai chi in the morning 
    Wol Euler: ah! do tell. 
    Sonic Moonites: well, i have been learning for about a month and a half now, and i think im starting to feel some benefits 
    Sonic Moonites: i think it takes a while before the the movements become automatic, but now its like a moving meditation 
    Wol Euler smiles and nods. that sounds good. 
    Fael Illyar ponders 'That sounds somewhat similar to walking meditation.' 
    Sonic Moonites: Hopefully if you can squeeeze in an hour a day, its your meditation and exercise 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah, it is like the walking one fael 
    Wol Euler: do you ... how to express this? Did you intend it to be a meditation, or did you notice that happening as you did the tai chi? 
    Sonic Moonites: well, since I went into tai chi with the intention of relaxation its hard to say, although it doesnt feel like sitting meditation does to me, it seems to ground me more, but it didnt have much of a meditative effect for me at the beginning 
    Sonic Moonites: but i have yet to have any strange experiences, which i have had with sitting ;) 
    Wol Euler: mm? 
    Fael Illyar: I've had some curious experiences while sitting, yes. 
    Sonic Moonites: there was one sitting meditation i did, and it only happened once...where it suddenly felt just like meditation should, it felt as if my thoughts were flying in from the side of my vision and i could chose wether to accept them or not, there was so much clarity and space...and then as soon as i though "a ha ive got it, im meditating!" it was gone 
    Wol Euler: heheheheh 
    Fael Illyar: Yep, the trap of getting proud while meditating cuts the meditation :P 
    Wol Euler: getting aware even, not just proud. (in my experience) 
    Sonic Moonites: yes i need to work more on still viewing meditation as a goal, its difficlut for me to just "be" without that being a goal too 
    Fael Illyar: Aware is fine, as long as you don't start generating more thoughts and attachments for it 
    Sonic Moonites: its difficult when you live in western society to open up like that i think 
    Fael Illyar: It is :) 
    Fael Illyar: It kind of requires that you stop attaching importance to achieving things. 
    Sonic Moonites: yes, and that loss of attachment concerns me at the moment, because i feel like a have no replacement for it 
    Fael Illyar: which is quite opposite from what we're brought up to do. 
    Wol Euler: hmmmmm 
    Fael Illyar: why does it need replacement? 
    Fael Illyar: oh wait, it is a bit more complex than that. 
    Sonic Moonites: well because otherwise i feel as if life would have no obvious direction which is difficult for me to fathom with my conditioned way of thinking 
    Wol Euler nods 
    Fael Illyar: You don't need to throw away the goals for all the time. Just while doing meditation 
    Fael Illyar: temporarily 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah perhaps i will try to think of it like that, thanks fael 
    Wol Euler: I do see the point, sonic, at least I think I do. It's a psychic discomfort, feeling that something accustomed is missing. 


    Fael brings in the topic of goals, which shapes the rest of the session. 

    Fael Illyar: Although, I've found removing goal-based thinking is actually helping me get stuff done but that's my own thing mst likely. 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah spot on i think wol 
    Wol Euler: like discovering that you don't have your phone with you. Perhaps that's fine, maybe you don't need it today, but its being absent is a disturbance and an unease 
    Sonic Moonites: and to extend the metaphor, its as if i have different phone, but my phonebook isnt there so i cant ring anybody 
    Wol Euler: ah :) 
    Sonic Moonites: i hope that makes sense 
    Fael Illyar: it does, sort of :) 
    Sonic Moonites: ;) 
    Wol Euler: definitely 
    Fael Illyar: but the thing is, you can't actually put the goals out completely. 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah sure, but isnt the goal an attachment, a percieved notion and imagination of the future? as long as there is a goal you are not here and now 
    Fael Illyar: and it's harder to keep them away than to put them away. 
    Wol Euler shifts in her chair. 
    Wol Euler: I get uneasy about the idea that all attachments must be bad. 
    Fael Illyar: They're not. 
    Wol Euler: a monastery that wasn't attached to having a working garden to feed itself from, would not last long. 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah i can see what you mean Wol, and if evrybody were monks there would never be children and eventually no people! 
    Fael Illyar: attachments in themselves aren't. Just ones that that a) you don't know about or b) can't let go of 
    Wol Euler: yep 
    Fael Illyar: well, b follows if a so ... just b needed :) 
    Sonic Moonites: difficult, sometimes i wonder wether rationalising this kind of thing is missing the point too 
    Wol Euler: goals can be good. Goals can be a steering wheel to keep you on the road. But they are not hte road itself 
    Fael Illyar: but I tend to prefer talking on the level of beliefs. It's funny you can have beliefs you don't know are there and don't want to know :) 
    Wol Euler: :) 


    At this point I was called away to a RL problem that eventually required my physical presence. 

    Wol Euler: (sorry, aft for a moment) 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah, i agree with both of you 
    Fael Illyar: to some extent it can be rationalized but almost every thing said about this is a bit off somehow. 
    Sonic Moonites: hello poe 
    Fael Illyar: Hello Poe 
    Sonic Moonites: yes fael 
    Sonic Moonites: perhaps we use the wrong kind of language 
    Fael Illyar: not sure if language, at all, is suited for it :) 
    Sonic Moonites: language or communication? does communication have place in this at all? 
    Sonic Moonites: or is it soley individual 
    Fael Illyar: talking with others certainly makes all of the progress faster for me at least. 
    Fael Illyar: I don't know where is it I'm going though, except in retrospect. 
    Fael Illyar: That's probably the problem with a goal. To have a goal, you need to paint a picture of it. 
    Sonic Moonites: how do you view your progress? 
    Fael Illyar: and if that picture happens to be not quite right, it can be very misleading. 
    Fael Illyar: I tend to look at practical benefits in my life. Being happier, calmer, better able to deal with things. 
    Fael Illyar: Also less afraid of things. 
    Sonic Moonites: yes 
    Sonic Moonites: id agree 
    Fael Illyar: but that, too, ebbs and flows. 
    Sonic Moonites: yes of course 
    Fael Illyar: but overall, the direction is what I said 
    Sonic Moonites: i have trouble with the labelling progress, for me i would just describe it as flux 
    Fael Illyar: I don't like calling it progress but it's the best word I can choose that will still be understood close to what I mean. 
    Sonic Moonites: yes i understand 
    Sonic Moonites: alot of thought this morning 
    Fael Illyar: Thought is not a bad thing. As long as you're watchful about which thoughts you believe. Those are the ones that need careful watching. 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah i agree 
    Fael Illyar: thoughts as such cannot do a thing, unless you choose to believe them. 


    A new visitor arrives and jumps right in to the flow of ideas. 

    Laurent Tao: greeting to all 
    Fael Illyar: also, any thought to of the future or the past is, in practise, a story. 
    Laurent Tao: thank you sonic 
    Fael Illyar: Hello Laurent 
    Sonic Moonites: hey laurent 
    Fael Illyar: everything in your mind that affects you, is there right now. So, anything about the future or past in there is a story because it refers to something that just isn't there right now. 
    Fael Illyar: A lot of problems we have is when we forget that they are stories. 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah id agree, altough the story greatly affects you 
    Fael Illyar: yes, if you believe the story, it will effect you. 
    Sonic Moonites: although i tend to find if i believe a thought it is my body which believes it, my body feels fear before i have time to rationalise 
    Fael Illyar: Of course, rationalization is something that is _always_ an afterthought 
    Sonic Moonites: *seconds that 
    Fael Illyar: which is why it's usually unnecessary 
    Fael Illyar: but tends to be useful in analysing yourself sometimes. 
    Sonic Moonites: so do you believe reasoning is the way to enlightenment, in a platonic sense? 
    Sonic Moonites: can enlightenment or even being exsist, while rationilisation is there? 
    Laurent Tao: if i can add a thing 
    Sonic Moonites: sure laurent 
    Laurent Tao: its part of it yes 
    Fael Illyar: well, it's more like, rationalization is a part of the process we use to communicate with others. 
    Laurent Tao: one of the steps 
    Laurent Tao: prajna 
    Fael Illyar: and communication with others tends to go through different parts of the mind than your inner awareness. 
    Fael Illyar: so, it's an alternative path for finding out things about yourself. 
    Sonic Moonites: yes id agree 
    Fael Illyar: if the inner awareness path is blocked 
    Sonic Moonites: what is prajna laurent> 
    Laurent Tao: study, wisdom knoledje 
    Sonic Moonites: ok 
    Laurent Tao: sorry for badenglish 
    Laurent Tao: its part of it 
    Laurent Tao: meditation and theory 
    Sonic Moonites: hey no your english is great, sure 
    Fael Illyar: the alternative path might help shaking up the blocks that prevent our inner awareness from seeing those things. 
    Laurent Tao: goes together 
    Wol Euler: back, and reading 
    Fael Illyar: and once that happens, you can see it. 
    Laurent Tao: here its theory 
    Laurent Tao: reaching 
    Laurent Tao: teaching 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah 
    Laurent Tao: this is it:=) 
    Laurent Tao: so its part of the path 
    Laurent Tao: or im wrong? 
    Sonic Moonites: i dont think you can be wrong 
    Fael Illyar smiles. 
    Laurent Tao: well im sure i can 
    Laurent Tao: wy?? 
    Sonic Moonites: perhaps someone who is sure he can be wrong, can be wrong ;) 
    Fael Illyar: All of us make mistakes. Every single one of us. 
    Laurent Tao: yes sure he can 


    I had to leave and log in to First Life at this point. 

    Wol Euler: (I'm sorry, I must go, RL is making demands.) 
    Sonic Moonites: ok wol, bye 
    Laurent Tao: bye wol 
    Wol Euler: enjoy the day, everyone. 
    Sonic Moonites: you too, take care 
    Wol Euler: bye laurent, and welcome to Play as Being. Did somebody give yu the introduction? 
    Laurent Tao: no but sonic expalain me 
    Laurent Tao: explain 
    Fael Illyar: Ah, ok, see you later Wol :) 
    Wol Euler: ok, let me give you a notecard that explains who we are ... 
    Laurent Tao: but if you want to give i will be greatfull 
    Laurent Tao: thank you 
    Wol Euler: there is one question I must ask: we record these sessions for publication on our website. May we have your permisson to include your name and comments? 
    Laurent Tao: thank you 
    Laurent Tao: yes sure 
    Wol Euler: thank you! 
    Laurent Tao: maybe is not that interesting but sure go ahead 
    Wol Euler: ok, I must run. Bye laurent, bye sonic, bye fael. 
    Sonic Moonites: bye! 
    Sonic Moonites: oops if i say anything strnage its because my cat is a t my keyboard ;) 
    Laurent Tao: :=) 
    Sonic Moonites: i sometimes use her as an example of living in the present 
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Did someone forget to ask you if you're ok with you lines being posted on our wiki?' 
    Sonic Moonites: is to me fael? 
    Laurent Tao: i understood you were talking about enlightement and path ? this is it? 
    Fael Illyar: No, to Sonic 
    Laurent Tao: what?? 
    Sonic Moonites: ok 
    Sonic Moonites: im sorry yes wol asked laurent fael 
    Fael Illyar: oh, it was Sonic's question. 
    Sonic Moonites: im sorry laurent yes we were talking about the notion of progress in regards to meditation 
    Laurent Tao: yes that what you told me ok 
    Laurent Tao: thats is interesting 
    Sonic Moonites: its a difficult question 
    Laurent Tao: yes 
    Laurent Tao: hehe 
    Sonic Moonites: ;) 
    Laurent Tao: is there any progress? 
    Fael Illyar smiles. 
    Laurent Tao: anny degrees? 
    Sonic Moonites: perhaps 
    Laurent Tao: :=) 
    Sonic Moonites: in a way, and in a way not 
    Sonic Moonites: it is either too complicated or too simple 
    Sonic Moonites: or both ;) 
    Laurent Tao: so may different theory at the end you dont really know 
    Laurent Tao: so many 's 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah 
    Fael Illyar: If you do meditation with the progress as the goal, it won't work too well. 
    Laurent Tao: in my experience it as some progress 
    Fael Illyar: because, to have a goal is to presuppose what you want to hapen. 
    Laurent Tao: thats it fael 
    Fael Illyar: and that distracts you from seeing the true progress when it's on your door 
    Laurent Tao: having a certain goal keeps you away from soething different that you were expecting maybe too 
    Sonic Moonites: but if your long term intention is progress...are you not tricking yourself when you meditate and pretend your not trying to progress 
    Sonic Moonites: perhaps pretend was the wrong word 
    Laurent Tao: no i think you true 
    Laurent Tao: is like the problem of desire 
    Fael Illyar: You can only ever, recognise the progress after it has happened. 
    Fael Illyar: and it could be weeks or months later 
    Sonic Moonites: but what if you acknowledge that progress in others, see it, and then strive toward it 
    Laurent Tao: and you must carefully define your notion of progress 
    Fael Illyar: then you strive towards the specific things they've gained and will, likewise, miss the next thing for yourself. 
    Fael Illyar: Walk your own path, not someone else's. 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah id agree fael 
    Fael Illyar: Only your path is the right one for you. 
    Laurent Tao: dont you trust people being more expoerienced? 
    Laurent Tao: what we call master s 
    Sonic Moonites: yea, its difficult 
    Laurent Tao: maybe we need somebody dont you think? 
    Laurent Tao: or you think anyone is able to find his path alone ? 
    Fael Illyar: other people can point you in the right direction but they can't walk you there. You need to do it yourself. 
    Sonic Moonites: for their giudance perhaps but not progress 
    Sonic Moonites: right fael 
    Laurent Tao: sure ok 
    Laurent Tao: you are walking 
    Laurent Tao: bye yorself anyway 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah 
    Laurent Tao: but many people they follow different path before me 
    Fael Illyar: a master can be very useful but it's a mistake to blindly follow. 
    Laurent Tao: and its good to lesson 
    Laurent Tao: but you have to whatch bye yourself and do not trust at first sight everything is said that very true 
    Fael Illyar: My own approach is to talk to people here and outside here. 
    Fael Illyar: And carefully consider what they say 
    Fael Illyar: So you could either say I don't have a master or that everyone is my master. 
    Sonic Moonites: yeah 
    Laurent Tao: that can create confusion 
    Fael Illyar: everything can :) 
    Laurent Tao: yes 
    Laurent Tao: and not 
    Laurent Tao: some people they need a direction 
    Laurent Tao: most of us 
    Laurent Tao: and its better to follow the rught one for you 
    Fael Illyar: like I said, each one has their own path. 
    Laurent Tao: right 
    Fael Illyar: and what I was talking about is how to see what it is 
    Laurent Tao: bad advice can hurt 
    Laurent Tao: yes this is the point :=) 
    Fael Illyar: bad advice can also hurt badly and once you recover from the hurt and discover it as bad advice, finally have the right advice. 
    Fael Illyar: by understanding why it was bad advice 
    Laurent Tao: i know but you can save time and energy 
    Laurent Tao: but yes sure 
    Laurent Tao: you learn from your mystakes 
    Laurent Tao: thats obvious 
    Fael Illyar: It's a question of being able to discern what is good advice and what is not. 
    Fael Illyar: no-one can do that perfectly 
    Laurent Tao: and not everybody have this good judgment 
    Laurent Tao: :=) 

    Sonic too is called away. 

    Sonic Moonites: sorry guys RL calling 
    Laurent Tao: ar you consider that the path is just for few elected people 
    Laurent Tao: i dont 
    Sonic Moonites: gotta go, hope you two have a good day 
    Laurent Tao: ho ok sonic im sorry 
    Laurent Tao: good by 
    Laurent Tao: see you 
    Sonic Moonites: bye laurent, bye fael 
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Sonic :) 
    Laurent Tao: thank you for making me comme here 
    Sonic Moonites: no problem laurent hope you enjoy it!bye 
    Laurent Tao: you have to go too fael? maybe talk is over 
    Fael Illyar: I can stay still. 
    Laurent Tao: ok 

    Laurent asks the L$64,000 question. 

    Laurent Tao: who are you? 
    Laurent Tao: :=) 
    Fael Illyar: you're not asking for a name I suppose :) 
    Laurent Tao: no 
    Laurent Tao: but its a simple question 
    Laurent Tao: dont take it philosoficaly 
    Laurent Tao: :=) 
    Fael Illyar: Just someone struggling along their own path ;) 
    Laurent Tao: ok 
    Laurent Tao: thank you 
    Fael Illyar: at a more aware ebb for a change. 
    Laurent Tao: ebb? 
    Fael Illyar: life ebbs and flows 
    Laurent Tao: ok 
    Laurent Tao: may i ask you if you pratice something? 
    Fael Illyar: only what I have found here, and in SL more generally. 
    Fael Illyar: and even then not for long and have had long breaks too sometimes. 
    Laurent Tao: because you seem experienced when i listening to you 
    Fael Illyar: It seems I'm a fast learner. 
    Laurent Tao: so you were talking about meditation i just wanted to know which form you use to practice 
    Fael Illyar: Well, Zen ia what I've been doing ... or at least trying to :) 
    Fael Illyar: but never too methodically 
    Fael Illyar: mostly when I feel like it. 
    Laurent Tao: that what i supesed listening to you 
    Fael Illyar: but mainly, I'm doing this 9 second thing from PaB. 
    Fael Illyar: I have bell ringing every 15 minutes for that. 
    Laurent Tao: sorry for asking but sometime i need to know if the people are talking about what they read in books or have experienced byethemself 
    Fael Illyar: I haven't read books. 

    Fael explains Play as Being. 

    Laurent Tao: and cn you explain me this thing of 9sc? 
    Laurent Tao: i have read a lot off :=))) 
    Fael Illyar: I only speak of what I've experienced personally. 
    Laurent Tao: ok 
    Fael Illyar: so, this group, Play as Being, was started when the founder, Pema Pera, had the idea of doing micromeditations and very often. 
    Fael Illyar: se 9-seconds, during which you do your best to drop what you have and look at what is left. 
    Laurent Tao: long time ago? 
    Fael Illyar: This year, April 1 
    Laurent Tao: ok 
    Laurent Tao: 9 sc observing what it is? 
    Laurent Tao: what is there? 
    Fael Illyar: he wrote a longer text explaining it, moment, I'll give you a link. 
    Laurent Tao: :=) lol thank you 
    Laurent Tao: better than a long speach 
    Fael Illyar: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Hints 
    Laurent Tao: thank you 
    Fael Illyar: Different people seem to do it in a different way but it seems to do something in any case. 
    Fael Illyar: I think the key is to detach from whatever you're doing. 
    Laurent Tao: i m going to read it then i dont come here next time like an elephant in a glass shop 
    Laurent Tao: seem concentration 
    Laurent Tao: its a micro zazen if i can say so 
    Fael Illyar: I've described it to some as 9-second pause from everything :) 
    Fael Illyar: yes, that's kind of what the description says. 
    Laurent Tao: ok i undesrstand 
    Laurent Tao: seems nice to practice 
    Fael Illyar: at least no-one can say they don't have the time for it :) 
    Laurent Tao: very adapted too our civilisation 
    Laurent Tao: no they cant 
    Laurent Tao: and can be vey usefull to stop and let it go few time a day 
    Fael Illyar: yes, I had significant effects after just a week 
    Laurent Tao: just being here thats it? 
    Fael Illyar: yes, 9 seconds, just being. 
    Laurent Tao: could you describe or its indescriptble? 
    Fael Illyar: No need to do anything. 
    Laurent Tao: i know 
    Fael Illyar: I mean practical effects... 
    Laurent Tao: yes 
    Laurent Tao: and? 
    Fael Illyar: I used to be rather anxious when I was around lots of unknown people. 
    Fael Illyar: I started getting a handle on that a week after starting 
    Laurent Tao: woaoa 
    Fael Illyar: well, mostly because that was the first chance I had I guess. 
    Laurent Tao: yes 
    Laurent Tao: true 
    Laurent Tao: but in fact it seem to have a great effect and benefits on you 
    Fael Illyar: Yes, quite. 
    Laurent Tao: but if i can add a thing 
    Laurent Tao: you said you practice zazen ? 
    Fael Illyar: sometimes. 
    Fael Illyar: haven't been doing it much lately but I did do one yesterday :) 
    Laurent Tao: ok so you have already a certain skill to do that 
    Fael Illyar: that was after a long pause, not as natural as it used to be. 
    Laurent Tao: im sure it help doing your 9 sc 
    Fael Illyar: yes, 9-seconds could be called windshield vipers and zazen a full wash :) 
    Laurent Tao: maybe that the progress we were talking about 
    Laurent Tao: :=))) 
    Laurent Tao: im very itnterested about meditation and whats people are expecting ang receiving from that 
    Laurent Tao: i want to talk whith them about the whay they are doing that 
    Laurent Tao: whats leeds them to do that 
    Laurent Tao: so i came here to listen 
    Fael Illyar: nowadays, I tend to meditate to see myself more clearly. 
    Laurent Tao: yes this is one of the "goals " 
    Fael Illyar: Yes, you're more than welcome :) 
    Laurent Tao: clear conscience 
    Laurent Tao: thank you 
    Fael Illyar: We have meetings every day at 1am,7am,1pm and 7pm SLT 
    Fael Illyar: someone is guaranteed to be there for 30 minutes (The guardian) 
    Laurent Tao: and i found it nice because i just arrive when you were saying interesting things 
    Fael Illyar: This time it was Wol 
    Laurent Tao: yes lol 
    Laurent Tao: you come often? 
    Fael Illyar: on average one or two per day I guess :) 
    Laurent Tao: so you have the time thats nice 
    Fael Illyar: tomorrow 1am is my turn to be Guardian 
    Laurent Tao: are you doing now your 9 sc everyday? 
    Fael Illyar: Yes, although, recovering from a slump so I still sometimes just don't even notice the bell. 
    Fael Illyar: I was thinking of changing the sound but didn't get to it yet 
    Laurent Tao: thae bell??? 
    Laurent Tao: you use a bell to count? 
    Fael Illyar: I have a bell sound playing from my speakers every 15 minutes 
    Fael Illyar: to remind me 
    Laurent Tao: ok i understand 
    Laurent Tao: how many time a day you do that? 
    Fael Illyar: I've got the bell ringing every 15 minutes except when I'm asleep 
    Fael Illyar: or out of the house 
    Laurent Tao: i hope so hahahahahaha 
    Fael Illyar: well, the bell is ringing but I'm not hearing if I'm out :) 
    Laurent Tao: all the time the bell? i mean is that not stressing? 
    Fael Illyar: we also have a scripted bell here that makes a sound every 15 minutes 
    Laurent Tao: it doesnt stress you at the end? 
    Fael Illyar: ... why would it? 
    Laurent Tao: i dont know 
    Laurent Tao: i asking myself 
    Laurent Tao: it seems very diciplinary 
    Laurent Tao: a thing saying to you 
    Fael Illyar: Well, I don't really mind missing it if that's what you mean :) 
    Laurent Tao: do that ,you have to do that now 
    Laurent Tao: ok this is the answer 
    Fael Illyar: The sound might come from a thing but it comes because I want it to come. 
    Laurent Tao: this is the answer :=) 
    Fael Illyar: So, it's effectively from me. 
    Fael Illyar: to myself 
    Laurent Tao: yes 
    Laurent Tao: you own way :=) as you said 
    Fael Illyar: Yes :) 
    Laurent Tao: this 9 sc meditation 
    Laurent Tao: how found it? 
    Laurent Tao: the group? 
    Laurent Tao: a charismatic leader? 
    Fael Illyar: If I choose not to do it, that's also me, why should I value one over the other? :) 
    Fael Illyar: a friend I bumped into in SL suggested I go see if I like the meetings. 
    Fael Illyar: I came first time at the end of May 
    Laurent Tao: and? 
    Fael Illyar: Well, I took a liking to the people I met at the first meeting and proceeded to start coming twice a day (or every meeting I was not asleep during) 
    Fael Illyar: then after a couple of weeks, my sleeping rhythm shifted so I could do 3 per day :P 
    Fael Illyar: so I did 



    Laurent asks another good question. 

    Laurent Tao: what arre you looking for? 
    Fael Illyar: I don't know, I just now this is it :) 
    Laurent Tao: ok your not supose to be looking for something but? 
    Laurent Tao: really? 
    Fael Illyar: Yes :) 
    Laurent Tao: is just interest 
    Laurent Tao: not looking for 
    Laurent Tao: peace ,release or i dont now what 
    Laurent Tao: ? 
    Laurent Tao: stoping suffering? 
    Fael Illyar: No, somehow I haven't come looking for peace or release or anything like that. 
    Laurent Tao: thats interesting 
    Laurent Tao: very rare 
    Fael Illyar: interest in the mind perhaps? 
    Laurent Tao: yes sure arent you? 
    Fael Illyar: yes, I am interested in how the mind works :) 
    Laurent Tao: mind create the representation we have so its interesting yes 
    Laurent Tao: nobody knows exactely how its working 
    Laurent Tao: but at least we can try to understand 
    Fael Illyar: being more peaceful and being able to enjoy life more are very nice things too but not the main reason I'm here. 
    Laurent Tao: i trust you 
    Laurent Tao: i was asking 
    Laurent Tao: thant s interesting 
    Laurent Tao: if you are very honest whith yourself thats a good thing 
    Laurent Tao: being eble to clarify your mind 
    Laurent Tao: able 
    Laurent Tao: dot take all i say too serious 
    Laurent Tao: first of all i can say one thing and the contrary a minute after 
    Fael Illyar: I do strive to be honest with myself ... although, I keep finding things about which I'm not :) 
    Laurent Tao: and my english is poor so sometime i say something and people understand another so please be nice to me dont interprate what i say too fast 
    Fael Illyar: I don't take people too seriously usually :) 
    Laurent Tao: cool thank you 
    Laurent Tao: so its easyer for me to talk to you 
    Laurent Tao: you should read krishnamurti 
    Laurent Tao: you will love it 
    Fael Illyar: perhaps I will, someday :) 
    Laurent Tao: maybe 
    Laurent Tao: i will go know rl 
    Laurent Tao: thank you for this nice talkj 
    Laurent Tao: maybe i come back here one of those day 
    Fael Illyar: Ok, hope to se you here again :) 
    Laurent Tao: :=) 
    Fael Illyar: Have a nice day :) 
    Laurent Tao: have a good day fael 
    Fael Illyar: http://playasbeing.wik.is/ 
    Fael Illyar: here's the link to our webpage, which has, in addition to other things, all the logs from our meetings 
    Laurent Tao: thank you it seem well organize 
    Laurent Tao: bye bye lol 
    Fael Illyar: Yes, Pema knows how to start :)
    Fael Illyar waves.  
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