2008.11.23 01:00 - What is control?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Moon Fargis but he couldn't make it so Fael was there to cover for him. The comments are by Fael.

     I arrived to the meeting and found Becka had teleported in at the same time and she was skating.

    Fael Illyar: Oh skates :)
    Becka Finesmith: lol - yes
    Becka Finesmith: I put them on yesterday for some reason and I've enjoyed it since
    Becka Finesmith: I've been getting around must faster :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that tends to happen :)
    Fael Illyar: I've got faster movement from my wings but it only activates if I want to :)
    Becka Finesmith: excellent. :) So how are you today? (It is morning where you are?)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, just out of shower :)
    Fael Illyar: I'm reasonably good this morning :) You?
    Becka Finesmith: Me too - I've got a busy day of study planned today :)
    Becka Finesmith: I'm looking forward to it.
    Fael Illyar: That's the best way to study :)
    Fael Illyar: to do what you enjoy :)
    Becka Finesmith: yes. It got me thinking about how much control I actually have over my schedule whilst laying in bed this morning
    Becka Finesmith: It feels like very little control
    Fael Illyar: I said something about control yesterday ... let me look it up, moment :)
    Becka Finesmith: ok.
    Fael Illyar: [2008/11/22 12:07] Fael Illyar: the more we try to control, the weaker we are.
    What I'm going for here is that control is an illusion and to try for that is simply trying to get something that doesn't exist. However, that doesn't mean we can't guide our life with our choices. It just means nothing can make sure things happen the way we want. (Wouldn't that be boring if it was possible?)
    Becka Finesmith: Mm. THat's interesting. I was thinking the complete opposite!
    Becka Finesmith: I was thinking that not being in control of my life made me weak
    Fael Illyar: what does control mean to you?
    Fael Illyar: but a critical point in my sentence is to note that it has the word "try" in it.
    Becka Finesmith: Good question.
    Becka Finesmith: I was thinking along the lines of being able to set my schedule
    Becka Finesmith: have things go my way. But that is probably too much control
    Becka Finesmith: As I look back on my life I see that the direction I've taken often is not something I set
    Fael Illyar: but you do set your schedule, no?
    Becka Finesmith: I seem to just end up somewhere at some time
    Becka Finesmith: I don't set my schedule entirely no.
    Becka Finesmith: Some of it is done by events that I have no control over
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... events that can manipulate your schedule book ... interesting.
    Becka Finesmith: Usually, I like the direction my life takes but It's not usually through a choice of my own
    Becka Finesmith: The opposite to what all that sounds like though is that I think I'm quite layed back about it and not contrl freaky at all
    Becka Finesmith: (well, maybe in some areas)
    Becka Finesmith: :0
    Fael Illyar: The thing is, we already have all the control we can have.
    Fael Illyar: we just don't tend to realize that as control that we are, indeed, using.
    Fael Illyar: We choose our schedules and actions based on it but refuse to acknowledge that it is our own decision.
    Becka Finesmith: why do you think we do that?
    Fael Illyar: because of how our society works, assigning responsibility, blame and such, we have to. But therein lies the easy mistake of actually believing internally too.
    Fael Illyar: If you do something, you've chosen to do it.
    Fael Illyar: well, in short, it's avoidance of responsibility.
    Fael Illyar: because, otherwise, our internal judge would be all over us.
    Becka Finesmith: but that presents me with a bigger problem :(
    Becka Finesmith: Everything that happens to me is through my actions
    Becka Finesmith: I'm not sure I can take the responsibility for that
    Becka Finesmith: I'm not sure I can take the responsibility for that
    Fael Illyar: what is responsiblity?
    Becka Finesmith: I'm searching for an example
    Becka Finesmith: Say...
    Becka Finesmith: Hypothetically, you where personally violated in some way. This reasoning would mean that it was our responsibility
    Becka Finesmith: as Humans we will automatically assign fault and we find that fault with ourselves. How do we then live with that?
    Fael Illyar: It would be a result of whatever actions we chose, yes. But that's kind of different from responsibility.
    Fael Illyar: responsibility is something created by society (initially leaders) to control the people who make up the society.
    Becka Finesmith: But it is also what gives us moral values?
    Becka Finesmith: otherwise basic instinct would take over and there would be chaos
    Fael Illyar: no, it enforces them with quite heavy punishment that we've been taught to give to ourselves and that we do.
    Becka Finesmith: So if we undo that teaching, we would all be savages?
    Fael Illyar: not quite that simple.
    Becka Finesmith: Mmm. A lot tho think about
    Fael Illyar: responsibility actually in some ways adds to the immoral behaviour too.
    Becka Finesmith: can you give an example?
    Fael Illyar: because we learn this way of trying to control ourselves by punishing and that easily gets us into a bind that we cannot predict and results in quite interesting conundrums.
    Fael Illyar: It's relatively common for people to get themselves with no choices they can make that would get them out of having to punish themselves.
    Fael Illyar: people who recover from that, tend to start being wary of using the punishment style and will be more likely to do bad things if they don't figure out they can regulate their behauviour in a less painful way that still works.
    Becka Finesmith: And that way is?
    Becka Finesmith: (or is it something I have to find in myself)?
    Fael Illyar: controlling with punishment is actually, controlling with fear.
    Becka Finesmith: yes.
    Fael Illyar: you don't do everything you do because of fear, right?
    Becka Finesmith: INteresting question - I never thought about that before
    Becka Finesmith: In some respects I do
    Becka Finesmith: Let me take the major parts of my life
    Fael Illyar: It's always there, affecting what you do, yes.
    Fael Illyar: but not the only thing
    Becka Finesmith: Why do I study? Well, as well as a love for a subject at the purest level, but also there is a fear that I don't understand something
    Becka Finesmith: Also on an emotional level. The fear of not being accepted
    Becka Finesmith: of being loved
    Becka Finesmith: Do I do anything that does not have an emotional motivation? I'm not sure I do :(
    Fael Illyar: emotions are a very core part of us
    Fael Illyar: at the core, it's the need of Love that drives everything.
    Becka Finesmith: Yes. If we take that away - what do we have left?
    Fael Illyar: Yet, we learn to not love ourselves since that's how we punish ourselves.
    Becka Finesmith: So true.
    Becka Finesmith: I'm not my biggest fan ;)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, and, of course, loving yourself is not an on/off thing. It's gradual.
    Becka Finesmith nods
    Fael Illyar: We only hit big problems when it goes too low.
    Fael Illyar: but all of the drop is because of punishing ourselves.
    Fael Illyar: even the constant one
    Fael Illyar: Is there a point to punishing all the time? constantly?
    Becka Finesmith: no. But not doing it is sometimes hard too. I have to admit I'm a big self punisher. I can't give you a reason why though
    Fael Illyar: It's what we're taught to do. It tends to take time to learn not to.
    Becka Finesmith: (not in a physical sense though)
    Becka Finesmith: Mentally, I probably beat myself up about everything
    Fael Illyar: Yes, people tend to do it mentally.
    Fael Illyar: and the only way to stop doing it is to realize that the things you're beating yourself up for aren't actually important enough to beat yourself up for.
    Becka Finesmith: I will try and work on that. I'll beat myself up for being so hard on myself ;)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that tends to be most peope's first reaction.
    Becka Finesmith: We are strange species. With sophistication comes so many flaws
    Fael Illyar: since punishment is the way you know how to make yourself do things, you automatically apply it here too.
    Fael Illyar: without thinking
    Fael Illyar: the first step is to be aware of youself doing it
    Becka Finesmith: I guess it's how we get "things" done.
    Fael Illyar: and realize that even though you're doing it, what's the sense in using it as an excuse to do more of it?
    Becka Finesmith nods
    Becka Finesmith: I'm not sure I've really been aware of this before. As aware as I am now.
    Fael Illyar: I wasn't either, before I found PaB last June :)
    Fael Illyar: oh wait, end of last may
    Becka Finesmith: Well, I hope in 6 months I find the wisdom you now have :)
    Fael Illyar: If you truly want to, you will.
    Becka Finesmith: You've kinda defined it a little for me
    Becka Finesmith: I'm going to have to leave and in a moment. Are you the Gaurdian for this session?
    Fael Illyar: I think, for me, it's been quite important that I'm doing this because I'm interested in the mind primarily.
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I agreed with Moon to take the slot for today.
    Becka Finesmith: My motivation is on several levels I guess. I'm learning all the time :)
    Becka Finesmith: You have given me somthing to contemplate today
    Fael Illyar: Of course, it's not my only motivation :)
    Becka Finesmith: :)
    Fael Illyar: I've found a few more while here :)
    Becka Finesmith: Me too. Thank you Fael for the chat. Will hopefully see you later. :)
    Fael Illyar: Thank you too :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later, hopefully :)
    Becka Finesmith: Bye.
    Fael Illyar waves
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