2008.11.24 19:00 - Logic Is Not Helping

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    Threedee was the guardian that night. He sent me, Pema, the chat log, which I put up. I also provided the title.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Ade'
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Corvi
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Doug.
    Threedee Shepherd: monday 11/24 7 PM
    doug Sosa: hi all :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Doug
    doug Sosa: othe cushion had weird properties :)
    doug Sosa: hm, little fountain?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Storm changed it so that we could have a smaller or larger format
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: whoops
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins
    doug Sosa: nice-er.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, grins at Doug....yes.
    Threedee Shepherd: how is everyones BEING tonight?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs...that doesn't change, does it?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire scritches Ade's neck...Three's ears.
    Adelene Dawner purrs, which just about sums it up.
    doug Sosa: yes, well, what's real? Neighbor's cooked dinner, 10th grade daughter actually, quite good, and then the economy and the obama factor..
    doug Sosa: so is the economy less real than these cushions?
    doug Sosa: The economy has an appearance, pervasive, so in that sense it is real.
    Threedee Shepherd: I have never thought of BEING as static and temporally determined in advance. To me it changes from moment to moment
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: does it?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmmm....interesting.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think I have imagined that it *is* static.
    Threedee Shepherd: well time happens and while being can be ALL of space, time as I (not Pema) see it is not there all at once
    doug Sosa: you all remind me of menotti's opera, the unicorn, the gogon and the manticore - three beasts of the poet's imagination.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire fluffs her hair and imagines snakes.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: then tries to imagine BEING
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and really can't.
    Threedee Shepherd: ohh, snake hair was dangerous, as I recall and wasn't dealing with that one of the tasks Hercules accomplished successfully?
    doug Sosa: maybe the issue is not to imagine being, but to let being emerge from the given appearances, what lies behind.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hercules seemed to be afraid of girls.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire looks up gorgons...and keeps thinking about BEING.
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, being emerges, but diofferent from moment to moment. My particular RL body was not part of being 100 years ago, in my way of looking at it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmmm....
    doug Sosa: I wonder in 100 years ago is part of being.
    Bell: *ding*
    Threedee Shepherd: Why not?
    doug Sosa: well, all our appearances of 100 yars ago are really derived from things now. 100 years ago is a construct, not something we can experience. carl sandburg said "the past is a bucket of aches."
    doug Sosa: what is the box to your right?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's your box
    Threedee Shepherd: I have no idea where the box came from
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's dougs.
    doug Sosa: mine?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I've made them accidently, sometimes.
    doug Sosa: hm,
    doug Sosa: ah
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: click on it and you can "take" it back.
    doug Sosa: i like it better over there, i think.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: /em grins.
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, so if being changes from moment to moment, what happens to old being?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sloughs off.
    Threedee Shepherd: to where?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think about that idea..that Being changes....like body's change.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: like cells grow and divide and....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: gets recycled?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ack.
    Threedee Shepherd: Is there some kind of Universal town-dump when old being gets carted off too?
    doug Sosa: now being is old being recycled?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire imagines a chain of BEING...from worms to people to...bacteria...
    doug Sosa: thre is a book, the great chain of being.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to mites to eat dead skin cells...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to bacteria to eat the mites...
    doug Sosa: poets eat potatoes and out come poems (from one end).
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know, Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: Wait, I'm still wondering what happens to ald being. Perhaps life is an infinite toothpaste tube of being and all the old being is still "back there" solidified and waiting for a time traveler to explore it?
    Threedee Shepherd: *old
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok...three possibilities.
    doug Sosa: go.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: 1) Being doesn't change we travel all over it and see a bit of the elephant (being at a time)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: 2) Being is present and past/future are constructs
    Threedee Shepherd: mmm
    doug Sosa: 3?
    Threedee Shepherd: what was (1), recycling?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Being is Present, past is ?, and future needs to be created.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Recycling is just one fun idea around that...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: 3)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: like the oscillating universe, for instance...a recycling concept.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok..there are *my* ideas.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but I'm new to the concept of B
    doug Sosa: these are good.
    doug Sosa: B?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: BEING.
    doug Sosa: ah, boy can i be dumb:)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nonon.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I just hit return too fast.
    Threedee Shepherd: Consider this? Where do old radio waves go? Imagine they just travel out there into space, getting weaker but still *there* . Now someone traveling towards earth would start thearing the beginning of a program that already happened and would get more and more of it as time passed. Is that reliving the past?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no..it's present.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks on this....the only thing that IS in that case is the waves.
    Threedee Shepherd: but it already happened here
    Bell: *ding*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: What is TRUE is that the waves exist at a certain place and time.
    doug Sosa: to look at the pile of you all, I am not certain.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the fact of the program here and now and then and there...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: are connected but not the same.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Doug.
    doug Sosa: smiles back.
    doug Sosa: sereptitiuosly (sp?) tries to image how it feels from the grass mat's point of view.
    Threedee Shepherd: flat
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
    doug Sosa: how the pile feels.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: warm.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire strokes Ade's wing.
    Threedee Shepherd: I start with the assumption in reallity that the past happened and is not a construct. Interpretations of it are constructs.
    Adelene Dawner purrs enthusiastically ^.^
    doug Sosa: digital bits, each a dream, for even the bits (the mat under the pile) is just a construct, a dream,
    Threedee Shepherd: hey in a book in RL words are just globs of ink or powder on paper
    doug Sosa: not "just". Each is a fragment of many poems.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire leans on Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: purrs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not just.
    doug Sosa: any children ever conceived i SL?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: just as they are in books.
    doug Sosa: wonderful! But has it happened? It might be a palce where SL and books are really diffeent.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'll have to take you shopping sometime, doug...you'd be surprised at the shapes one can find....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have had friends in rp sims do just that...concieve..be pregnant for a time...have babies raise children.
    doug Sosa: hm.
    Threedee Shepherd: Interesting, I don't recall ever seeing a pregnant avatar.
    Adelene Dawner: They're not common.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: they exist, though.
    Adelene Dawner: I think I've run into, like, one.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and the stories that go with them.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire counts...4 or 5...all in the role play sim.
    Adelene Dawner: They definitely exist, though. I've seen pregnancy kits for sale on SLexchange.
    Threedee Shepherd: Ok, so what is the difference between a role-play sim and PaB?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not as much as one would think.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but we don't carry guns and claws here.
    Adelene Dawner extends her claws briefly, careful of Corvi's leg. "Really?"
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: what are these things on my paws
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs...oh, yeah.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well...there's one last difference, down the drain.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire pulls the plug on the fountain.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Once we start playing here...telling stories of what we do....as well as how we interpret the world...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't think there is a difference at all.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so when you extend your claws....this is a role play sim.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: When I grin, or guffaw....
    Threedee Shepherd: I'm not sure. When someone goes to Star Trek sim and plays a Klingon, that is taking on a character
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles, laughs.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: We are always taking on characters, aren't we?
    Threedee Shepherd: Except, on the WWW there is a language site that teaches Klingon
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's just funny.
    Threedee Shepherd: Want to know a good Klingon curse/putdown?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods!
    doug Sosa: go
    Threedee Shepherd: Your mother has a smooth brow!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahaha
    doug Sosa: uh oh, don't get it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Klingons have handsome wrinkly brows.
    doug Sosa: ah.
    doug Sosa: thanks!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: welcome
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: in NoR....the role play sim....Corvi is a healer, and a rather goofy woman.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: In Play as Being....Corvi is a goofy woman.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: In real life....well....
    Adelene Dawner: And a healer. ^.^
    doug Sosa: with incredible hair
    Corvuscorva Nightfire buries her face in Ade's wings.
    Bell: *ding*
    doug Sosa: i must heed the bell and leave. apologies.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'night, Doug...
    doug Sosa: ciao
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Doug
    Threedee Shepherd gave you KLINGON.
    Threedee Shepherd: night
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahahah
    Threedee Shepherd: so, Corvi, RL is just a form of *method acting*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know...but...it seems it at times..
    Threedee Shepherd: I don't recall where I heard this or if I told it here, but it is supposedly true. A four year old asks parent: Are we like TV to God?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles weakly.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have gotten the idea from past conversations that Being is "playing" at being us...
    Adelene Dawner licks Corvi's hand.
    Threedee Shepherd: or vice-versa
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and when I hurt, or someone hurts...I feel incredibly pissed at that idea.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Ade.
    Adelene Dawner: I think, Corvi, that you're missin g a vital part of that concept...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think I must be.
    Adelene Dawner: the 'you' that's there to *be* hurt... who experiences the hurt, or anything else for that matter... *is* Being.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I know this is a stoopid question...but I keep coming back to it....
    Threedee Shepherd: so YOU arenj't, rather *you* is or is is you
    Adelene Dawner: yes, Corvi?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: just the why question.
    Threedee Shepherd: why not?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: because it hurts.
    Threedee Shepherd: all just part of the *equation*
    Adelene Dawner: 'hurts' is an abstraction... not sure I can even really explain this part... but... it's like, pain hurts becasue we decided that it does, kind of.
    Adelene Dawner: That concept translates very, ery poorly to words, sorry.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: naww..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I get the concept.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I completly understand that I can change hurt...
    Adelene Dawner: mmm.... big picture, here.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I do it all the time...
    Adelene Dawner: Being... experiences this world, this reality. It does that through us, and, I assume, through other creatures and things and in other ways.
    Adelene Dawner: And it isn't picky.
    Adelene Dawner: It experiences hurt because hurt is part of this reality, intrinsically.
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Threedee Shepherd: or as the Japanese saying goes: Even monkeys fall out of trees.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have become very aware lately that my atheism is really anger.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and my refusal to buy into the BEING concept is exactly the same anger.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: whether the concept is of something aware or something that just IS.
    Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, I understand what you are saying.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I know.
    Adelene Dawner: But... hurt isn't universally part of this reality, not like gravity or stuff. Being experiences hurt through us, just like it experiences language, or math, or other abstractions through us.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Bell: *ding*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nono..it's not a digression.
    Threedee Shepherd: The next question is not whether it is justified or not, rather, what does it accomplish?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: I don't think Being thinks that way.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire wants to slap Being, then.
    Adelene Dawner: (In fact, I'm pretty sure Being doesn't think at all, except through us.)
    Threedee Shepherd: yup
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: my reaction to that is to think.."fucking useless concept"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which isn't all that helpful.
    Adelene Dawner: yes, except when it isn't.
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, what *would* help? Imagine for a moment I *could* tell you why there is pain and suffereing, would that satisfy you?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles and leans into Three's side. "no, I don't think it would"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think what I would like...
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: is for BEING to be a little more considerate.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs at herself.
    Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps it is more considerate than you imagine, youe ARE here, after all?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ook
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: now I'm at the root of my mad.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not that KNOWING why I'm so angry helps much...
    Threedee Shepherd: and glad
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's still there.
    Adelene Dawner: Something is telling me to share this, Corvi. http://harelbarzilai.org/words/omelas.txt
    Threedee Shepherd: One of my favorite and horrible stories!
    Adelene Dawner grins. "mmhmm"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. I remember this...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Look..here it is...laid out...my mad...my parents used to tell me I should be grateful that they'd brought me into the world....when I was upset....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but I wasn't all that grateful in that moment.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am projecting that same thing on being...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for all the good it does me to know that.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "I don't think Being is capable of carinf if you're grateful or not."
    Adelene Dawner: *caring
    Corvuscorva Nightfire pouts...neither is my dad.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am aware of the need to get rid of this idea...
    Adelene Dawner chuckles and purrs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to let go of it...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire shrugs and tries to let it alone.
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually, I'm sad for you that "neither is my dad"
    Adelene Dawner: Leaving it alone and letting go of it are two different things, Corvi-Love.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I know.
    Adelene Dawner: He Steve
    Adelene Dawner: *Hi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but picking at it isn't helping either.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steve
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Steve!
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi
    Adelene Dawner: I think your dad bing incapable, and Being being incapable, are two different kinds of incapable.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. Yes I'm sure they are.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: At this point...logic is not helping.
    Adelene Dawner: Sorry, Love.
    Threedee Shepherd: What could help?
    Bell: *ding*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh, no...that was not a criticism, in any way...just an acknowledgement that I say this is logical...but really it's not.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi three
    Threedee Shepherd: Really, what could help?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire is thinking and thinking about this question.
    stevenaia Michinaga: If iw ere furry and purring I;d pile on as well
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Steve.
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Don't let that stop you."
    stevenaia Michinaga: ...smile
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles warmly...
    Bell: *ding*
    stevenaia Michinaga: time for me to sleep, night all
    Threedee Shepherd: night Steve
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Steve. :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: 'night Steve. Sleep well.
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