2008.11.29 19:00 - Zeroth Time at Right Angles

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    That evening we had another weekly guardian meeting. Stim was the guardian, but I, Pema, posted the log with comments.

    When I arrived, Stim was sitting already near the pool, by himself. I decided to play with the appearance of the place, after first reminding myself what the options were.

    Pema Pera: Hi Stim!
    Stim Morane: Hi Pema!

    The magic incantations are revealed and spoken!

    Pema Pera: what do you think of this option, no water?
    Pema Pera: or do you prefer the water?
    Stim Morane: It depends on other factors, including whether I'm listening to SL sound or not.
    Stim Morane: I would have to study the cases more to offer an opinion
    Pema Pera: Hi Doug!
    Stim Morane: Hi Doug!
    doug Sosa: hi both

    Doug entered and described the RL scene he was in.

    doug Sosa: i am in the middle of children and cooking rissotto so i can stay half an hour.
    Pema Pera: sounds like you're pretty busy!
    doug Sosa: Which makes me want to ask, the difference between an open mental state, one fixed on conceptual categories, and one involved with real time hand - ete stuff reality
    doug Sosa: three states, i usually think just two.
    doug Sosa: "hand-eye.."
    Pema Pera: I see at least eight combinations, with each of the three emphasized more or less . . . plus all gradations in between!
    doug Sosa: ah, the matrix man..:)
    Pema Pera: you can *use* concepts with or without an open mind
    Pema Pera: and so on
    Stim Morane: what is your thought, or question, Doug?
    doug Sosa: interesting, if open means letting experience flow, and cocnepts mans categories, i find it hard to find a state that is cenceptual AND open.
    doug Sosa: so the question is,hey, three poles,, not two. ??
    Stim Morane: Yes. But there is another meaning of "open" that does not point at an ordinary option.
    Pema Pera: Hi Solo!
    Stim Morane: Hi Solo.
    Solobill Laville: Hi!
    doug Sosa: go stim.
    doug Sosa: (hi solo said quietly)

    Solo joined us, also quietly.

    Stim Morane: This latter kind of openness can include anything within the range of the mind, whether caught up in concepts or not.
    doug Sosa: like free range chicken?
    Stim Morane: Beats me.
    doug Sosa: I mean, arent categories demarcations, segmentations?
    doug Sosa: rigidifiers?
    Stim Morane: from the point of view of an ordinary option called "openness", yes.
    doug Sosa: all ears..
    Stim Morane: I don't have a follow-up, I'm afraid. Saying more would just be saying, without a much more experiential basis.
    Stim Morane: I.e., without a more experiential basis to give the "saying" a new level of meaning.
    doug Sosa: can we assue we have the experience but not the integration in words. I think i can follow an openness of another kind.
    Stim Morane: Was there something in what people here have been talking about that prompted your question, Doug? Oh ... I see you've answered.
    doug Sosa: what propmpted it was the cincrete activity of cooking the risotto seemed "different" from the normal 9for me) division between conceptual and meditative..
    Stim Morane: Yes. A good example.
    doug Sosa: norma(for me)..
    Stim Morane: This is certainly important for PaB, I'd guess.
    doug Sosa: I have guests who are horrified that i amnot using a recpie, just saying "hm, let's see what might go here..?"
    Stim Morane: How does it work out?
    doug Sosa: you mean does it tast goo? i almost never miss.
    doug Sosa: taste good..:)
    Solobill Laville thinks that doug's guests shouldn't be questioned his cooking then... :)
    Stim Morane: Following a recipe is a good approach, but it can't claim to be connected to reality, since the food ingredients change, cooking conditions do too, etc.
    Stim Morane: This is an example of a general issue I guess you're pointing out.
    doug Sosa: So back to cencpets and openness. in the 9 sec, my approach has been to led the conceptual fade, but often to continue practical actity "and see what I see."
    Stim Morane: Yes.
    doug Sosa: But you are suggesting being able to remain conceptual and also see what happens.
    doug Sosa: this might point to something i really need to practice.

    I came back to the independent nature of the degrees of freedom that Doug had mentioned, a view that he called a matrix but that he didn't seem to adhere to.

    Pema Pera: I think the openness of the 9 sec and conceptual-or-not are two unrelated things and can be combined - like in a matrix
    Pema Pera: for example, a pianist can follow a script, in an open or closed way
    Pema Pera: and can wildly improvise, in an open or rather closed way
    doug Sosa: yes, and i think i've been experimenting withit without being aware of it. My work lately has been requiring a more than usual degree of analytic complexity. and yet i am trying the 9 sec.
    Stim Morane: Good.
    Stim Morane: It will be interesting to see what you report about this over time.
    doug Sosa: lst night i had a dream of the apatment i gre up in in NYC, but i was there now
    doug Sosa: moving back in. and i was amazed to see the changes, the upsaaclaing.. the dreetail which i can still see vividyl was rich in architerctural detail
    doug Sosa: but all new detil kind of paladian pompeii detailing. how did i do that. I can walk back into that space now, awake.
    doug Sosa: yes, and i think i've been experimenting withit without being aware of it. My work lately has been requiring a more than usual degree of analytic complexity. and yet i am trying the 9 sec.
    Stim Morane: Good.
    Stim Morane: It will be interesting to see what you report about this over time.
    doug Sosa: lst night i had a dream of the apatment i gre up in in NYC, but i was there now
    doug Sosa: moving back in. and i was amazed to see the changes, the upsaaclaing.. the dreetail which i can still see vividyl was rich in architerctural detail
    doug Sosa: but all new detil kind of paladian pompeii detailing. how did i do that. I can walk back into that space now, awake.
    Stim Morane: with the right conditions, the mind can indeed operate that way.
    Stim Morane: It already has a great deal of practice dealing with such detail ...
    doug Sosa: so onward to mixing 9 sec and conceptual. I thini grasp what it will be like but want to play wit it as being , so to speak.
    Stim Morane: Yeah, I'd prefer to see what happens, before commenting much.
    doug Sosa: nd the risotto, sitting there, needs my attention, so I will quietly delete myself.
    Stim Morane: Oh, OK. Have a nice dinner!
    doug Sosa: bye all.
    Pema Pera: bye Doug, enjoy the risotto
    Stim Morane: Bye

    Doug had left before we could complete our greetings.

    Pema Pera: and the company!
    Pema Pera: oops, not quick enough again :)
    Solobill Laville: opps, me too
    Solobill Laville: *oops
    Pema Pera: only the most trigger happy guardians can manage to say goodbye to Doug!
    Pema Pera: it's a sport
    Solobill Laville: too true... :)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pema Pera: I just read Storm's latest blog entry, Solo, in which he commented on your time piece, earlier this month
    Pema Pera: which reminded me, to ask you, have you been exploring time further?
    Solobill Laville: Yes, I responded to him on his blog about that as well....
    Solobill Laville: Actually, no, I haven't...time is a subject
    Solobill Laville: that I find intellectually interesting
    Solobill Laville: but not so much in a contemplative way
    Solobill Laville: Similar to karma
    Pema Pera: ah, but it is the experience of time that can begin to change, when you engage in more contemplative explorations
    Solobill Laville: Good stuff, but in a practical sense seems to take up up space...if you know what I mean
    Pema Pera: I'm not interested in the conceptual part either
    Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
    Adelene Dawner: hiyo
    Stim Morane: Hi Adelene!
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Ade

    Adelene joined us, and we continued to talk about time.

    Pema Pera: talking intellectually is boring, at best
    Pema Pera: and hindering further exploration at worst
    Pema Pera: but experiencing time in different ways, and then talking about it to compare notes, is very differnt
    Solobill Laville: Perhaps I see the experiening aspect as an outcome, rather than a begining, or Play type of thing
    Pema Pera: what I like about PaB is that we are trying to be peers, you could say that we try to be each others teachers and students at the same time
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Pema Pera: I'm learning a lot from listening to how others describe what they see and struggle with
    Pema Pera: what they find and where they grope in the dark
    Pema Pera: and for me time is one of the most intense parts of my practice
    Pema Pera: most mysterious and most powerful
    Pema Pera: and I often find that if I don't talk about that, it is hard to explain anything else that I want to say, because the rest would be misleading, when interpreted within the regular past-present-future strucgture
    Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Corvi
    Stim Morane: Hi Corvi!
    Solobill Laville: Ah
    Corvuscorva Nightfire scritches Adelene's back.
    Solobill Laville: I am not so worried about what I say...I am working a bit more on where I am at in my own awareness, perhaps?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all!
    Solobill Laville: (And I try to say very little, as I can restrain myself;))
    Pema Pera: I find myself very often oscillating between the past-present-future time we are all trained to live in, and the zeroth time which is so very different . . . .
    Stim Morane: Hello Corvi!
    Pema Pera: hi again Corvi!
    Pema Pera: and to describe those transitions, which can happen within seconds or parts thereof, I have to describe the difference between zeroth time and normal time

    Corvi joined us, and Solo gave a beautiful first-hand description of some of his experiences.

    Solobill Laville: IN my limited experience I have been so overwhelmed by eveything, that time wasn't so much "on my mind"
    Solobill Laville: The "all-one-ness" was just so miraculous
    Solobill Laville: But the time thing, was just part of "it", as everything else
    Solobill Laville: It seems to be something that just takes care of itself, like karma, which seems ok to me :)
    Solobill Laville: Does that make any sense?
    Pema Pera: was it more a space experience, if I may ask?
    Solobill Laville: hmmm
    Solobill Laville: I dunno, big NOW
    Solobill Laville: but I would say yes...hesistantly
    Pema Pera: ah! most likely I would call that zeroth time :-)
    Pema Pera: but of course all those come in very many gradations and shades . . . .
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Solobill Laville: I could say spatial in that it was like a droplet into the ocean
    Solobill Laville: which is of course more "space"-like, I'd guess
    Solobill Laville: But definately Big NOW
    Solobill Laville: So, yes, sounds like zeroth-time from what you have described
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Solobill Laville: I could say spatial in that it was like a droplet into the ocean
    Solobill Laville: which is of course more "space"-like, I'd guess
    Solobill Laville: But definately Big NOW
    Adelene Dawner hmms...

    With the emphasis now having shifted from talking about time to talking about experiencing time, in other words from a more intellectual to a more experiential engagement, I wonder what mode of communications we can find.

    Pema Pera: what would be really great is if we can over time grow a vocabulary to help us to share those kinds of experiences to some extent
    Solobill Laville: (Sorry, Ade)
    Adelene Dawner: It would be interesting to hear a description of past-present-future time...
    Pema Pera: so that we can help each other not to overlook what is so easily overlooked since it does not fit into our normal memory structures
    Solobill Laville: How do we do that? And define past-present-future time as well?
    Solobill Laville: How do we get an agreement on subjective terms?
    Pema Pera: it is not so much a matter of agreement
    Pema Pera: but rather on holding up mirrors
    Solobill Laville: definition by individual?
    Pema Pera: the problem with so-called spiritual experiences is not so much that we don't have them
    Pema Pera: but that we don't recognize them
    Pema Pera: and we can help each other doing so
    Solobill Laville: that is a fact
    Solobill Laville: I realized as an adult I had several as a child
    Solobill Laville: But of course back then it seemed so perfectly natural
    Pema Pera: yes, all of us, I think, and yes!
    Solobill Laville: EVery surely must have them
    Solobill Laville: (so I thought)
    Pema Pera: each moment is full of mystery . . . still!
    Solobill Laville: (and maybe it is true)
    Pema Pera: each door you walk through opens into a new world
    Pema Pera: each corner you turn
    Pema Pera: if you can live that way
    Pema Pera: you can appreciate appearance
    Pema Pera: sorry, Adelene, can you say more about what you wanted to say/hear about time?
    Pema Pera: (it is true, Solo! :-)

    Adelene points out how, strictly speaking, we can never leave the now.

    Adelene Dawner: Um... you mean you *don't* experience existance as one long now? What do you experience, then? *baffled*
    Solobill Laville: Ade, is that going back to the Big NOW comment
    Solobill Laville: ?
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm, and the implication that that's unusual.
    Solobill Laville: It was slipping into eternity, and Buddha nature, which for me is not usual, no, though it is important to me
    Solobill Laville: My practice is to nurture that, and help others, in my meager way, however I can
    Adelene Dawner: 'slipping into' implies that your default state is something other than that, though...
    Solobill Laville: RIght, in the day-to-day relative chasing my monkey mind around in circles, it is
    Solobill Laville: That is why I am here, and I practice at home :)
    Adelene Dawner remains baffled...
    Solobill Laville: *shy
    Solobill Laville: *why
    Solobill Laville: How can I clarify it more to you, Ade?
    Adelene Dawner: .....
    Solobill Laville: I would agree with you that my default state is that...but the veil of the relative is pretty thick sometimes
    Stim Morane: Sorry, I have to go at this point. Thanks for the interesting comments. Please have a good evening!
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Stim
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Stim
    Pema Pera: I find myself oscillating between the two, with the linear time picture embedded in the wider zeroth time view, but the emphasis can shift from one to the other. As for Adelene's question, in both cases of course we find ourselves in the now, but the now can feel very different! We can be totally open to the "eternal now" or we can escape into memories of the past and fantasies of the future
    Pema Pera: bye Stim!
    Solobill Laville: This is a very pertinent and important topic, I feel
    Solobill Laville: Really THE topic
    Pema Pera: yes, I agree!
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Solobill Laville: It is quite possible that you, Adeline, are in the "wider zeroth" view that Pema just spoke of, most or all of the time...
    Solobill Laville: Most contemplative efforts work towards getting there
    Solobill Laville: I am working :)
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm. I'm still not sure why they do, either... but it generally seems like a good idea not to flaunt the fact. :P
    Adelene Dawner: (er, the fact that I live in this state. Sorry, sentences are being difficult this evening)
    Solobill Laville nods and asks, "what would you be flaunting?"
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Adelene Dawner shrugs. "Damned if I know, but you guys obviously think it's good to be here, or why would you go to all the trouble?"

    I then suggests three attitudes towards, or engagements with, time.

    Pema Pera: Perhaps we can roughly discern three ways of dealing with time: 1) lost in past and future; 2) realizing that it is better to stay in the present, as the only one that you can really experience; 3) opening up to "eternal time". It strikes me that what Adelene said is a very helpful reminder to move from 1) to 2) -- it is a great preparation for 3)
    Solobill Laville: :) good point
    Solobill Laville: ah
    Pema Pera: the problem with much new age speak about "be here now" is that it can be interpreted as only 2) which would be a pity as a stopping point . . if you don't move on to 3)
    Pema Pera: when you reflect on it, 1) is impossible :-)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Pema Pera: even though we always try to do it
    Pema Pera: Adelene pointed out that joke, I think
    Pema Pera: so we are always in teh now, but we still have a choice
    Pema Pera: to see it as 2), as a narrow moving point on a very long line
    Pema Pera: or as the 3) open totality of eternity
    Pema Pera: close to the all-inclusive vision that Solo hinted at, and which we sometimes stumble into
    Pema Pera: (and of course there are FAR more than 3 options, really millions -- just simplifiying here)
    Solobill Laville: I see that all as a description I can readily agree with
    Solobill Laville: Do you see it that way, Ade?
    Solobill Laville: Last Thursday I started using the Mindfullness clock again
    Adelene Dawner: Pretty much, yeah - 2 and 3 are both familiar, 1 is pretty baffling tho ^.^
    Solobill Laville: ok
    Solobill Laville: Like doug, work has been demanding lately
    Solobill Laville: so the 15 dings are good and challenging
    Solobill Laville: but when I used the restroom around 11:30 in the morning
    Solobill Laville: I washed my hands as in a 9-sec PaB practice
    Solobill Laville: full mindfullness
    Solobill Laville: and it was something...
    Solobill Laville: just washing my hands
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Pema Pera: that sounds to me like an opening into the zeroth time direction -- to some extent (always a moving target)
    Pema Pera: I mean: I recognize it
    Solobill Laville: Yes, what Thich would call the Miracle of Mindfullness
    Pema Pera: and to the extent that I recognize it, that is how I would interpret it for myself
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Solobill Laville: Where 2) meets 3); pretty blissful
    Solobill Laville: just washing hands...
    Pema Pera: yes!

    Threedee arrives and joins us.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Three.
    Pema Pera: may I propose a way to play with this, say over the next few days, and then we can report to each other?
    Pema Pera: Hi Three!
    Solobill Laville: Hey, Three
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Threedee Shepherd: Evening folks, just got homke
    Solobill Laville: Well, to me, that is more of where I like to Play
    Threedee Shepherd: .
    Solobill Laville: What is your suggestion>
    Pema Pera: good seeing you again, 3!
    Pema Pera: My suggestion is to picture time as a line, with the present a point in the middle, past to the left and future to the right, if you like, and then to picture zeroth time at right angles, moving along a line the is vertical, if the linear three-time past-present-future line is horizontal
    Pema Pera: and the suggestion for play is as follows:
    Solobill Laville gets out his Etch-A-Sketch
    Pema Pera: notice as often as you can, but at least in the 9 sec -- hehehe, Solo!
    Pema Pera: that you get lost in past and present
    Pema Pera: then consciously make two moves
    Pema Pera: back into the center (what I called 1)->2) above)
    Pema Pera: and then at right angles out of the center (2)->3) above)
    Pema Pera: at first we may have no idea what that second move might mean
    Pema Pera: but what the heck, let's try!
    Pema Pera: does that make sense, as an exploration?
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Adelene Dawner: kind of.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no
    Corvuscorva Nightfire cringes.
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: Corvi, what part did make sense, so far?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think I see the visual...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but...I'm lost in the image.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ook
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sorry.
    Pema Pera: it is hard to point out without a black board . ..
    Pema Pera: I meant escaping from the narrow one-dimensional path of past-present-future

    Corvi having asked for a clearer description of the geometry gave me a great opportunity to quote again the part that I so much liked in her blog.

    Pema Pera: In fact, Corvi, your beautiful description in your blog is a nice pointer to zeroth time!
    Pema Pera: "I am rededicating myself to letting fear and desire flow through me and beyond me while I am listening. To not work toward a goal in listening, not try for an outcome, but simply to listen and understand."
    Pema Pera wondering whether he can make Corvi blush again, hehe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire does indeed.
    Solobill Laville: That is nice, Corvi
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: blush again.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think it's the idea of two lines that doesn't quite...
    Pema Pera: np
    Pema Pera: just one handle
    Pema Pera: you may have very different handles to get in there
    Pema Pera: or better out from here
    Pema Pera: out from linear time thinking/feeling
    Pema Pera sees a blackboard arising . . .
    Pema Pera: even better
    Adelene Dawner: helpful, Pem?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Ade's depiction..
    Pema Pera: blue-red frame!

    While we were talking, Adelene had constructed a coordinate frame with two axes, a horizontal red line, depicting past-present-future linear time, and a vertical blue line, reaching straight up from the point depicting the present.

    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, a foundational question: Why should I even assume the possibility of zero time
    Pema Pera: so the blue is what Corvi blushed red about :-)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Pema Pera: no reason to assume anything Threedee
    Pema Pera: what we are doing here is trying to convey to each other what we experience
    Pema Pera: like in a lab, trying to find words to describe what we see in experiments
    Threedee Shepherd: Assume was not a good word. Where does the idea of zero time arise from?
    Pema Pera: no attempt yet at theory
    Solobill Laville: (Maybe we need a past and present and future ball on the red time line, Ade
    Pema Pera: oh, it is just a word used by some Tibetan teacher -- we can use many different words
    Pema Pera: but the experience of "beyond linear past-present-future time" is pretty universal
    Pema Pera: in comtemplation and mysticism, etc
    Solobill Laville: "timeless time"
    Pema Pera: eternal now
    Solobill Laville: But, still doesn't answer Three's question...
    Threedee Shepherd: now IS eternal, it is just not the identical NOW
    Solobill Laville: Ah, sorry, just saw your follow up Three

    Solo and I are getting ready to leave.

    Pema Pera: eternal as the now may be, looking at the clock, I see that it is getting toward midnight here pretty soon . . so I think I'm going some sleep, eternal or not :-)
    Solobill Laville: Yes, me too...
    Pema Pera enjoys viewing reality in different coordinate sysems simultaneously
    Solobill Laville: Looking good Ade
    Pema Pera: Solo, could you email me the chatlog?
    Pema Pera: I have missed several sentences
    Pema Pera: because of this @#$%^&* computer of mine freezing up
    Solobill Laville: yup, but I missed the first 7-8 minutes
    Pema Pera: going into 2) I guess!
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Pema Pera: Oh, I have almost everything
    Pema Pera: but I won't know what I missed
    Solobill Laville: np
    Pema Pera: until I see all of yours :-)
    Pema Pera: probably five lines, one here one there . . . .
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Pema Pera: my time line has cracks !
    Pema Pera: line construction Adelene!
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Pema Pera: see you all!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Solobill Laville: Night
    Adelene Dawner: still not sure what exactly you're meaning with the blue direction... but I have a guess, anyway ^.^
    Pema Pera: good night!
    Adelene Dawner: Another time ^.^
    Pema Pera: let's all explore and see what we find!
    Pema Pera: It's never static
    Solobill Laville: I think the green ball (if it is the present) should be on the red line as well
    Pema Pera: keeps changing, for all of us
    Pema Pera: and deepening
    Pema Pera: yes, Solo
    Adelene Dawner: Talk to Three, he moved it.
    Pema Pera: the present is in the center
    Solobill Laville: ah, hehe
    Pema Pera: okay bfn!
    Solobill Laville: bye

    Corvi would later send me the remaining part of the chatlog, below.

    Adelene Dawner: What *are* you making, Love?
    Threedee Shepherd: Extra Time ^.^
    Adelene Dawner: hehe
    Adelene Dawner: so... explain it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Threedee Shepherd: Well that blue line is only part of the zero time dimension, which has no dimensions at all so I am trying to make it multidimensional
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: ...ok... why a circle?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it ought to have more dimensions than the line, anyway.
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually, all the green balls should be moving along ythe blue
    Threedee Shepherd: Because that was faster to make than an infinity sign ;>
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no the green balls.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: they're in the right place.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: each of them is the same green ball.

    Adelene Dawner grins.
    Adelene Dawner: Ok... so the red line is the timestream that we happen to be in, and the green ball is 'now'. The ring implies another dimension... now, watch this.
    Threedee Shepherd: may I remove the blue LINE
    Adelene Dawner: sure
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what's the orange one?
    Adelene Dawner: I was about to ask you. ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire likes the circle lots better than the line.
    Threedee Shepherd: an alternate universe
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: a parallel alternate universe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nownownownow.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: they're all the same one.
    Adelene Dawner grins widely at Corvi.
    hreedee Shepherd: Almost, one can move between them similar to SL teleport
    Adelene Dawner: Three... remember when I talked about time being the 4th dimension, and free will basically making sense as the ability to move in the 5th dimension? Apply that here.
    Adelene Dawner: No... the line doesn't move... it's just a marker.
    Adelene Dawner: ok, Three, what are you doing?
    Threedee Shepherd: I was trying to make a segue, but I can't edit the properties
    Corviu: segue?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Segway?
    Threedee Shepherd: transition from red to orange smoothly
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
    Adelene Dawner: They're spaced so we can see 'em - assume that that's a trivially jumpable distance.
    Threedee Shepherd: Adelene Dawner: Three... remember when I talked about time being the 4th dimension, and free will basically making sense as the ability to move in the 5th dimension? Apply that here. YES, that fits nicely.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Corvuscorva Feels like she's done her homework now..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I can't think about Pema's two lines.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: this makes much more sense.
    Adelene Dawner: Well, I'm not sure if that's what Pema meant... but, that's what I think of when someone says 'perpendicular to time'.
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know either..but I couldn't see at all what those two lines meant.
    Threedee Shepherd: Now is in potentially infinite "places," and you can slide among them to get onto a different arrow
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: well, for the right definition of 'you', anyway. ^.^
    Adelene Dawner wishes Three would quit stealing her prims... but since he's taken this over anyway... *sets 'em for sale*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire quite enjoys seeing the lions creating this idea in space together.
    Corviu: discussing it with pictures instead of words.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: not all set to buy
    Adelene Dawner: try now
    Adelene Dawner: hm...
    Adelene Dawner thinks the blue glow nicely represents the degree to which we believe we can change our surroundings, kind of...
    Adelene Dawner: As in, one can only move to timelines within that distance.
    Adelene Dawner ponders... no, that line of reasoning actually doesn't hold up at all. Don't mind me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that there is a distance?
    Adelene Dawner: Let me hold off on that - not sure I'm coherent at all there. Thinking in true 5d is tricky.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I can't do it for long.
    Corvi just for a moment.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Why can't I linik them if I own them all
    Adelene Dawner: Do you have 'edit linked parts' checked?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire wishes she could make aball to stand in with the green balls peeking in.
    Adelene Dawner: ...?
    Threedee Shepherd: no, I can select two and try to link and they won't
    ]Threedee Shepherd: Nor can I take a copy
    Adelene Dawner: ohhh.... they might be no-mod, some if 'em. >.<
    Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, I just read about that today and will go look for how it was done
    Adelene Dawner: *of
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh well
    Adelene Dawner: leave it - I'll make a copy.
    Adelene Dawner: I want Pema to see.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: How what was done?
    Threedee Shepherd: I set it to buy original, so you can get it back and then fix permissions
    Adelene Dawner: I can't fix the permissions, I don't think - I'll try, tho
    Threedee Shepherd: you are creator
    Adelene Dawner: it still stays no-mod for me.
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh well, we can make another
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Adelene Dawner: in a minute - I need to afk.
    Threedee Shepherd: please make every part full perms
    Adelene Dawner: *wait*, though. Don't go stealing my prims.
    Adelene Dawner: ok, done.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Pretty!
    Adelene Dawner: oo, what'd you make, Corvi?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: same tthing...but I wanted a little different shape.
    Corvi each of the nows with it's own...past future.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: to hop off of.
    Adelene Dawner: ...?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: a different set of ideas.
    [Corvuscorva Nightfire: you're exploring...alternate paths...free will.
    Adelene Dawner: 'k...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm thinking about how to hop off the belief in past and future...or the reality or whatever.
    Threedee Shepherd: Ade, please delete this orange bar over here
    Corvuscorva Nightfire feels very content watching these two work.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: The best thing about this image..
    Adelene Dawner: mm?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: is that if you look at it sideways it still looks like Pema's lines.
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: perpindicular.
    Adelene Dawner: I think what Pema was trying to get at was... if you conceptually move off of the red line, you can 'see' not only the red line, but the orange one, too, and any others that are 'in range'... kind of.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was the perpindicular line that got me.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: too limited.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but this makes it work better.
    Adelene Dawner: *if* this is what he meant. He might've been talking about something else entirely - he didn't say enough for me to know.
    Threedee Shepherd: I think it is
    Threedee Shepherd: with further embellishments
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Adelene Dawner: So who's going to send him the log? I've alreay sent him a copy of the non-animated diagram.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Threedee Shepherd: Now if I take mine and make it all spin in still another direction, we will be approaching the chaos of reality :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mine looks like a popsicle....
    Adelene Dawner: looking at that makes me seasick... and I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with the motion.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's a point of view.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: where we think we are at the center.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: If we see the world as though we are fixed in a discrete now...that the other green nows are seperate.
    Adelene Dawner: I still don't get why they move...
    Threedee Shepherd: experimenting
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: then the orange thingy might look like it's moving all over the place in an odd way while the red thingy...the one we think we're on, the red one stays in place.
    Adelene Dawner: ...hmm...
    Adelene Dawner: I don't think either of them move, in practice... *shrug*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: move is just one more dimension.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not literal.
    Adelene Dawner: yes, move brings in our 4th dimension - its 6th dimension... but, not sure *why* you're doing that, and not going to kill my brain trying to do 6d tonight.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm not doing it, Three is.
    Adelene Dawner: He can answer!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm just watching and playing with ideas around it.
    Threedee Shepherd: messy
    Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
    Threedee Shepherd: I was trying to get more dimensions by the spinning parts
    Adelene Dawner: yes - that's doable, as I mentioned... but, why?
    Threedee Shepherd: To observe if I got any sensible ideas?
    Adelene Dawner: ah ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: Also, I am thinking about how to add spatial to this, perhaps particles?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: spatial?
    Threedee Shepherd: space, x,y,z
    Threedee Shepherd: Or a transparent box enclosing it?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: don't
    Adelene Dawner: subsumed in the timelines...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Threedee Shepherd: indeed, but not abviously
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: like my ball
    Threedee Shepherd: but, OK
    Adelene Dawner: I doubt anyone who wouldn't be able to understand that would be able to understand the diagram anyway...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: can't see it...it's too complicated to stick in there.
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, too much is confusing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: we already have the NOW sticking into the diagram in several spots..but one now.
    Adelene Dawner: ...it's 1am...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ook
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: goodnight.
    Adelene Dawner: 'night, Loves. ^.^ Somebody please send Pema the log!
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