2009.03.04 13:00 - A very nice feeling around the shoulders

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    The Guardian for this session was Genesis Zhangsun.  The comments or lack thereof are hers :)

    genesis Zhangsun: Hey
    Pema Pera: Hi Genesis!
    Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Adelene
    Adelene Dawner: Hiyo ^.^
    Pema Pera: I've been spending almost my whole day in SL so far it seems . . . .
    Pema Pera: first a ReLaM meeting in the Kira Cafe, with a very interesting talk by someone from IBM
    Pema Pera: that lasted two hours
    Pema Pera: 'cause everybody was too excited to stop after an hour
    Adelene Dawner: Sounds cool. :)
    Play as being Watch for mens will ring next in 11 minutes 6 seconds.
    Pema Pera: then a time workshop meeting
    Pema Pera: that lasted 1 hour and 45 minutes
    Pema Pera: then 15 minutes break
    Pema Pera: and oh, before all that this morning
    Pema Pera: 's PaB session of course
    Pema Pera: hi Fefonz!
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Gen, Pema, Adelene :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Pema Pera: It was fun to talk in voice with Storm and Scathach -- we now know how to pronouce her name!
    Pema Pera: quite different than what I had thought . . . .
    Fefonz Quan: yes, and a great accent too
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Fefonz, hey Mickorod
    Pema Pera: between Fefonz and Storm and Scathach and me: Israeli, Irish, English, Dutch -- all that is lost in typing . . . .
    Pema Pera: Hi Mick!
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya
    Fefonz Quan: hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Pema,gen, fef
    Mickorod Renard: Adelene
    Adelene Dawner: hi ^.^
    Pema Pera: Mick, any more thoughts about time?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,lots ,but nothing worthy of discussion
    Mickorod Renard: i seem to be sadly lacking time
    Mickorod Renard: but
    Fefonz Quan: lacky you ;-)
    buddha Nirvana: hi everyone :)
    Mickorod Renard: I feel I may be feeling some of what we talk about,,and just for fleeting moments
    Pema Pera: Hi Buddha!
    Fefonz Quan: hey buddha
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Buddha
    Pema Pera: yes, Mick, that is how it stats
    Pema Pera: starts
    Pema Pera: it is extremely important to notice those and not gloss over them
    Pema Pera: and also very good to try to write down what you see/think/feel/experience
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I was aware also of bodily feelings too
    Pema Pera: that helps you to notice them, pay more attention
    Pema Pera: can you say more about them?
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Scath :)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I guess they are the same one would get during meditation or relaxation
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)
    Mickorod Renard: like for eg
    Mickorod Renard: hi scath
    Mickorod Renard: a very nice feeling around the shoulders
    Pema Pera: Hi Scathach!
    Mickorod Renard: like a letting go
    Mickorod Renard: and a noticable logic to not worrying about past and future
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Mickorod Renard: and again a highlighting of how futile much thought is about past issues
    Fefonz Quan: yes. though some of them are pleasant
    Mickorod Renard: true,,but i seem to have been living too much in the past
    Fefonz Quan: me had that feeling too
    Mickorod Renard: about 2 years ago my mind went into overdrive
    Mickorod Renard: and it has been full of thought ,,constant
    Mickorod Renard: unrelenting
    Mickorod Renard: I gotta slow it down
    Pema Pera: Hi Cybele!
    Pema Pera: Feel free to join us
    genesis Zhangsun: yes it feels very productive but in fact it is not
    Mickorod Renard: Hi cybele
    Fefonz Quan: hi Gybele
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,some has been useful in leading me into new realms,,but now its adicted to thought
    genesis Zhangsun: yes
    Fefonz Quan: it's like watching tv in the head all the time
    genesis Zhangsun: you have to let go of the raft once you've cross the river
    genesis Zhangsun: no use in hanging on to it :)
    Mickorod Renard: most of which is unhealthy , going over whatts past
    Chiaiu Chiung: Hello everybody
    Pema Pera: hi Chiaiu!
    Adelene Dawner: hi :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Chiaiu
    genesis Zhangsun: hey Chiaiu
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello chiaiu
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Chia
    Mickorod Renard: but I glimpsed the timeless feeling
    Mickorod Renard: shame I cant hold onto it
    Pema Pera: thank you very much, Mick, for putting that into words, that's not easy to do . . .
    Mickorod Renard: like the eye of a storm
    Pema Pera: no, we can't hold onto it, the more we try, the harder it is
    genesis Zhangsun: I am very interested right now in the connection between no time and no self
    genesis Zhangsun: does anyone have any thoughts on this?
    Squee: Insanity: a perfectly rational response to an insane world.
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks Squee
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Adelene Dawner laughs. ^.^
    genesis Zhangsun: Mick how did you feel, in no time was there a sense of no self?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe time is something we give
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Mickorod Renard: its like as if you give away your quota of time addressing issues
    Mickorod Renard: and leave yourself none
    Fefonz Quan: infact when no time, how would the self express itself?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra: would we experience time if we did not have a strong experience of 'self'?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, our muscles are so trained to try and push
    Fefonz Quan: and not letting go
    Mickorod Renard: maybe time is more noticable when you have more self
    Fefonz Quan: i think the self operates in the frame of time
    Fefonz Quan: longing - sometimes past notion
    Fefonz Quan: wanting - is a future notion
    Fefonz Quan: suffering - trying to get the self out of the NOW
    Pema Pera: the problem is, there is simply no way that we can argue or imagine what it would be to see without past-present-future time . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . . what we can do is try to start with the glimpses we have had
    Pema Pera: recognize them, and compare them with what we hear from others
    Chiaiu Chiung: judging things is comparing past and present
    Pema Pera: and try to be more aware
    Pema Pera: yes, Chi
    Pema Pera: any type of analysis is, in fact
    Fefonz Quan: wb mick
    Pema Pera: no time means no causality, a very radical idea . . . .
    Mickorod Renard: sorry
    Scathach Rhiadra: wb Mick
    Mickorod Renard: hit the wrong button
    Pema Pera: :)
    arabella Ella: hiya
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Arababella
    arabella Ella: sorry i am late
    Pema Pera: Hi Atabella!
    Fefonz Quan: don't be mick, a manifestation of impermanence :)
    Pema Pera: np, there is no "late" here
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    arabella Ella: ]thanks Pema
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Arabella:)
    Fefonz Quan: hi arabella
    Chiaiu Chiung: Hi
    arabella Ella: hiya everyone!
    Mickorod Renard: as a kid I remember having so much time
    Chiaiu Chiung: with the absense of time you would get the inner piece to look at things as they are
    Fefonz Quan: as a kid time looks longer also, each year moves so slow
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,it is often relative
    arabella Ella: time looks longer, everything looks large3r as a child
    Fefonz Quan: Chi, sometimes i feel the reverse order happens
    Chiaiu Chiung: what do you mean?
    Fefonz Quan: while in inner peace, time and problems dissolve
    Mickorod Renard: taking the trouble to alow ones self opportunity to reflect is a removing the issues of time
    Chiaiu Chiung: true
    Mickorod Renard: so,,can we say that time is measurable to us in how much we cram into it,,or ,,how much we allow ourselves some self indulgence?
    Pema Pera: well, there are two things: we can try the radical move of dropping past-present-future time (PPF)
    arabella Ella: i know this may sound naive or stupid but ... can u guys help me achieve inner peace?
    Pema Pera: or we can try to gently stay in PPF and wear it more losely, more freely
    Fefonz Quan: maybe, although i do feel it also when meditating,
    Pema Pera: that's a central question, arabella
    arabella Ella: yes ... smile
    Pema Pera: and yes, we are all helping each other with that, every day here
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Fefonz Quan: (to mick)
    Pema Pera: one gentle way to find more inner peace is to learn to deal better with time
    Pema Pera: the radical one is like dropping that PPF time
    arabella Ella: yes ... i expect one needs practice?
    Pema Pera: the first one is like taking aspirin for a toothache, the second like pulling the teeth -- but that is at the same time also a wrong metaphor . . . .
    Pema Pera: it is not pulling, not removing, but seeing
    arabella Ella: ok
    arabella Ella: interesting
    arabella Ella reflects
    Mickorod Renard: I know this sounds scary,,but my best results so far are when I am driving back and forth from work,,about 1 hour each way
    Pema Pera: ah, car in gear, mind in neutral !
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,car on auto pilot
    Fefonz Quan: and who's driving ?
    Mickorod Renard: who knows
    Fefonz Quan should get that kind of car too :)
    Mickorod Renard: usually i am cramming my mind with what I will do etc,,but now I am just reflecting on the counrtyside,,and also silly things
    Gybele Silvera: so sorry all; this is how I look without SL lags
    Pema Pera: Arabella, has the 9-sec exploration helped you to get more peace of mind?
    Pema Pera: wb Cybele
    Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    arabella Ella: ehrm ... Pema ... my days at the moment start full speed and it just slips my mind ... unfortunately ... but I must remember to do it
    Pema Pera: Come join us if you like, Cybele
    arabella Ella: yes i dont mind being included in the blogs
    arabella Ella: thanks
    Pema Pera: it may surprise you, Arabella
    arabella Ella: yes ... would be nice
    Pema Pera: just to do it very briefly, a few times a day
    arabella Ella: yes i will
    Pema Pera: repeating something, like a ritual of any kind, is amazingly effective
    arabella Ella: yes similar to a mantra
    Mickorod Renard: do you have a mandala,,is that the word,,that we can use?
    Mickorod Renard: yeaa,,mantra,,thats it
    Pema Pera: Gybele, is it okay to include your conversation with that of all of us on our web site?
    buddha Nirvana: Hi Gybele :)
    arabella Ella: but Pema could it be that sometimes we take over other ppl's problems and feel a heavier load?
    Pema Pera: oh sure, we do that all the time :)
    arabella Ella smiles
    Gybele Silvera: hi every and each one
    Mickorod Renard: I think our lives are generally loaded by probs that we are employed to deal with
    Gybele Silvera: np with me :)
    Mickorod Renard: can we switch on and off?
    Pema Pera: thanks, Gybele!
    Squee: I have often regretted my speech; never my silence.
    arabella Ella: can we take on a number of problems of other ppl and not 'sink' with their load?
    buddha Nirvana: nice one squee :)
    Fefonz Quan: though the problem (as tasks maybe) does not make you suffer by themselves
    Squee: ^.^
    Chiaiu Chiung: some of the problems are just illusionary
    buddha Nirvana: (*.*)
    Fefonz Quan: what we make of them, hoew we treat them is the issue i think
    arabella Ella: i wish they were Chiaiu
    Fefonz Quan: yes chi, that too
    Chiaiu Chiung: some are real of course
    Pema Pera: yes, helping people to see that their problems are not as heavy as they think makes both them and you lighter . . .
    Pema Pera: we can acknowledge their full reality and yet find ways to "look through" them
    Pema Pera: see their emptiness, as part of the emptiness of the world . . . .
    arabella Ella: 'look through them'?
    Fefonz Quan: i had some experience where i could see problems without worry about them
    Pema Pera: yes, in a sense you could say that the world is like a dream, like a movie, not as substantial and heavy as we normally think
    arabella Ella: cool
    Chiaiu Chiung: look through them = accept them and see what happens?
    Vic Michalak is Online
    Pema Pera: yes, all that, Chiaiu
    Pema Pera: it can start by reasoning, but it has to be seen, felt
    Pema Pera: to be really effective
    Gybele Silvera: sry I feel better to stand...thinking people to understand why
    Mickorod Renard: I mused over what a simple life I could live,,and in actual fact I do,,,,its just seeing that
    Fefonz Quan: sometimes it help to see what this problem effect us
    Fefonz Quan: why*
    Fefonz Quan: why does it makes us fear
    arabella Ella: well problems often create unnecessary conflicts which are often a waste of time and energy
    arabella Ella: when our energy could be put to much better use
    Pema Pera: yes very much so
    Fefonz Quan: mostly i found problems are more simple than we think, and we complicate tehm
    Fefonz Quan: and that takes a lot of energy
    arabella Ella: and unfortunately some ppl seem to see it as their focus in life to create unnecessary conflicts for others
    arabella Ella: as psychologists say ... no person is an island
    Fefonz Quan: mostly they are creating those conflicts for themselves too
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,the balance of not wanting to join in the conflict and not wanting to be walked over
    arabella Ella: yes Fefonz very true
    Fefonz Quan: though, the reason we don't look at the simple way, is that it is the most scary sometimes
    arabella Ella: how do you perceive 'the simple way' Fefonz?
    arabella Ella: pls?
    Fefonz Quan: so we complicate it in order to bypass that hole
    Fefonz Quan: well, it depends on more specific examples i guess ara
    arabella Ella: ok yes
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,there are several schools of thought,,,some say the meek inherit the earth,,and others that the strong win
    Fefonz Quan: the strong meeks? :)
    Fefonz Quan: micks?
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Mickorod Renard: I am humble and have been taken advantage of
    Fefonz Quan: by who?
    Mickorod Renard: by those who feel they can profit
    Mickorod Renard: to avoid it often leads to conflict
    Mickorod Renard: are we deviating?
    So Kuu is Online
    Fefonz Quan: from what ? ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: time
    Mickorod Renard: and reflection
    Fefonz Quan: problems are often experienced within time (mostly future notion i guess)
    Fefonz Quan: if i am going to have a conflict tomorrow, i start worring today
    arabella Ella: well we live in a world with other ppl
    arabella Ella: some of whom have their own special power and ambition agenda
    herman Bergson is Online
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats it,,and I guess Ara could resolve most her probs with more time
    buddha Nirvana: be well everyone _/\_
    Adelene Dawner: bye, Buddha.
    Fefonz Quan: by buddha
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye buddha
    Chiaiu Chiung: bye buddha
    Mickorod Renard: bye buddha
    Pema Pera: bye Buddha
    Fefonz Quan: not sure what you meant mick
    arabella Ella: time solves all problems ... but ... in the meantime... one must deal with life and what it throws at us
    Mickorod Renard: well,,most of our problems circle around not having enough time to deal with them properly
    Fefonz Quan nods to arabella
    Fefonz Quan: not sure mick...
    arabella Ella: and one of the main issues is ... the problem of evil people obsessed with power and ambition
    Mickorod Renard: stress is ussually from what u havnt done rather than what you have
    Fefonz Quan: stress is from how you treat your tasks
    Fefonz Quan: and identify with them, and fear to fail
    Fefonz Quan: most stressful people, in 48 hours per day, will have double the amount of tasks they have
    Pema Pera: at least :)
    arabella Ella smiles
    Mickorod Renard: how can you address evil influences when trying to live a good life
    Fefonz Quan: though i wonder about the evil people issue, can you say something about it ara?
    Pema Pera: I'll have to leave, good seeing you all !
    Pema Pera: sorry, Adelene :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Pema,,thankyou
    Fefonz Quan: bye pema :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: night Pema
    arabella Ella: well i find some ppl are concerned only with achieving power or ambition at the cost of tripping others
    Chiaiu Chiung: bye pema
    Gybele Silvera: bye all
    Pema Pera: see you next time!
    arabella Ella: thanks pema
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Pem.
    genesis Zhangsun: bye pema
    genesis Zhangsun: I am also out of here bye everyone!
    arabella Ella: bye gen
    Fefonz Quan: bye gen :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye gen
    Scathach Rhiadra: night Gen:)

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    Originally written on 08:07, 10 Mar 2009
    I took the liberty of adding a title :)
    Posted 07:07, 9 Apr 2010
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