2009.03.10 13:00 - Arising and arosing

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    Mickord was the guardian this session

    Udge Watanabe: hello corvi, ara, mick
    arabella Ella: hiya Udge
    Mickorod Renard: with coming to p a b its taking all my spare time up too
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Udge.
    Mickorod Renard: hiya udge
    arabella Ella: yes b ut P as B is a calming experience I find
    Mickorod Renard: you have been here before udge?
    Udge Watanabe: oh yse, many times.
    arabella Ella: are you in europe too Corv if I may ask?
    Mickorod Renard: thought so

    p a b_001.JPG
    Udge Watanabe: I'm a kind of lay member :)
    arabella Ella: cool
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,seen you around but couldnt remem
    Mickorod Renard: from where
    Udge Watanabe: this is your first session, Mick?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm in the USA east coast
    Udge Watanabe: do I remember that correctly?
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,as guardian
    arabella Ella: ok cool Corv
    Udge Watanabe: (I meant as a guardian :) sorry
    Mickorod Renard: its ok,,but I am a lil nervous
    Udge Watanabe smiles
    Udge Watanabe: rememeber to use the Holy Handgrenade when the killer rabbit comes
    arabella Ella: LOL
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Scath!
    arabella Ella: does the killer rabbit have a name?
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I will get it ready
    Udge Watanabe: hello scath
    arabella Ella: hiya scath!
    Mickorod Renard: hiya scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello corvi, Udge, Mick, Ara:)
    Mickorod Renard: so,,do we need an agenda?
    arabella Ella: only if u have one i suppose
    Mickorod Renard: or shall I be patient?
    arabella Ella: your choice
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking earlier
    Udge Watanabe: lead us on to greatness :)
    Mickorod Renard: about how emotion is integral to apreciating things
    Mickorod Renard: as in arising
    Udge Watanabe: hello buddha
    arabella Ella: yes like i saw a fantastic full moon tonight
    buddha Nirvana: hey :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello buddha
    arabella Ella: and decided to see the moon as 'arising'
    Mickorod Renard: hiya buddha
    buddha Nirvana: hi :)
    arabella Ella: and watching the beautiful moon did give rise to some fantastic emotions
    arabella Ella: a perfect circular full moon so brilliant and spectacular
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I think without something promoting emotion it sort of gets left in the background
    arabella Ella: the issue may be ... is it possible for us to perceive or even to think without emotion?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,i would say emotion must be on a sliding scale
    Mickorod Renard: but the emotion I am thinking of is the sort that stirs oneself
    Scathach Rhiadra: or are emotions not arisings, apearances as well
    Mickorod Renard: interesting
    Mickorod Renard: but many appearances do not stimulate us
    Mickorod Renard: so I would think that would not be recognised as an arising,,in my opinion
    Mickorod Renard: have you an example?
    Mickorod Renard: Scath?
    Scathach Rhiadra: sorry,...
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi fefonz!
    Udge Watanabe: hello fefonz
    Mickorod Renard: hi fefonz
    arabella Ella: hiya Fefonz
    Scathach Rhiadra: if all is appearances, then must not that include all that arises including emotions, even the 'appreciating' must be an appearance
    Fefonz Quan: Hello everyone :0
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: just thinking this through now:)
    Fefonz Quan: good point Scath...
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
    arabella Ella: i wonder whether we could apply the experiment on 'arising' to emotions themselves
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,but we are conditioned to not take notice of much
    arabella Ella: to see emotions as 'arising' too
    Fefonz Quan: surely emotions are appearances too
    Mickorod Renard: thus,,only those that stir emotions are noticed to the point of becoming arisings?
    arabella Ella: yes they could be appearances too but could we see emotions as 'arising' too i wonder
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, maybe that is where 'the biggie' as Tarmel calls it comes in, seeing the self as arising..
    Fefonz Quan: sure, why not? i fact i find it easier with emotions than with a table
    Mickorod Renard: I think emotions are arisings
    Fefonz Quan: (to Ara)
    arabella Ella: yes ... cool ... i gotta give that a go too
    Mickorod Renard: but I wonder whether its essensial to have an emotion on an appearance for it to count as an arising?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: surely not!
    Mickorod Renard: soz bout spelling
    Fefonz Quan: nope
    Scathach Rhiadra: agree with Corvi:)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: surely..the table arises as an appearance whether i care or not?
    arabella Ella: i dont think it should be 'essential' ... maybe yes maybe no
    arabella Ella: but some 'arisings' involve emotion too
    arabella Ella: like the full moon for me tonite
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: of course..but it's not necessary to arising...
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,well in that case..I must think of all things I see as arrisings?
    arabella Ella: exactly ... not necessary ... but not impossible
    Udge Watanabe: Mick, I am confused. Your phrasing of "have an emotion on an appearance for it to count as an arising" suggests that these are two separate things for you?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i can notice that table without giving it any emotional content?
    Fefonz Quan: i guess so Corvi
    Udge Watanabe: apparance ad arising, I mean
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,but isnt it an aspect of arising that it should mean something to the seeing
    Fefonz Quan: why Mick?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it means table.
    Fefonz Quan: or color, shape, structure, etc.
    Fefonz Quan: all arising in our consciousness
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ooo..better than my formulation, Fefonz
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,but then we have noticed it
    Fefonz Quan: if not noticable, how can it appear Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: he he he ,,I have talked myself into a corner
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: perhaps the confusion is interpretation vs emotion?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: maybe they are seperate things?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but related?
    Udge Watanabe: if Pema were here, he'd say something like "let's take a step back and slow down" :)
    Fefonz Quan: many times emotions are kind of spontaneous interpretations
    Udge Watanabe: and talk about terms. Do we all mean the same thing with "arising"?
    arabella Ella smiles
    Fefonz Quan nods to Udge :)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Mickorod Renard: well,,its been a point of learning what arising is
    Udge Watanabe: it feels as though Mick is giving it more weight than Fef or Corvi have done
    Fefonz Quan wonders who will jump first to the cold water of definitions :)
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    arabella Ella: i expect for some of us especially those of us with less experience arisings are more likely to carry emotional content too ... but dont necessarily have to do so
    Mickorod Renard: most of the time I have been looking for a more complicated answer
    arabella Ella: with experience i expect it becomes likely that emotion can more easily be controlled
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or...left out
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not controlled...
    arabella Ella: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: just not brought to the table?
    Mickorod Renard: generally we relate arrising to something that has touched us more deeply..or we have looked at more intently
    Udge Watanabe: so it is a special case for you, Mick, because of its emotional content?
    Mickorod Renard: hi tory
    Fefonz Quan: i didn't know it Mick, maybe i should open dictionary, this is not a term i know from daily life
    arabella Ella: but ... for those of us like me who are still novices at this ... emotions often cloud our perceptions ... and i think it takes time training and experience to leave emotions out of our experience of arisings
    Mickorod Renard: I am not sure swimming in the pool is in club rules?

    Fefonz Quan: why do we see hear emotions as different from other experiences?
    Fefonz Quan: here*
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, for me all that we perceive are arisings in our consciousness/mind
    Fefonz Quan: yes, Scath
    w Udge Watanabe: right, that is the difference that I felt. Mick gives it much more weight and specialness than you two do
    Fefonz Quan: shapes, thoughts, emotions, body senses - all appearances

    Scathach Rhiadra: and 'all' that ee perceive includes everything, images, sounds, thoughts, emotions...
    Mickorod Renard: so is that not needed udge?
    arabella Ella: yes
    Udge Watanabe: perhaps; but it is a difference that seems to me to be causing some crossed wires
    Udge Watanabe: not right or wrong, just different.
    Fefonz Quan: yes udge.

    arabella Ella: could you help to untangle the crossed wires Udge?
    Udge Watanabe: well :)
    Udge Watanabe points to my group title.
    Mickorod Renard: I am im..ong now
    Udge Watanabe: Bear in mind that I am a warthog and not a philosopher or a buddhist :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    arabella Ella: no worries but your opinion is also just as valuable as is everyone elses
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: you are a good observer, though Udge.
    arabella Ella: yes
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and a great detangeler.
    Udge Watanabe: Mick seems to be using "arising" for the heightened emotional impact of particular appearances, events ...
    Udge Watanabe: arising in the sense then of becoming particularly significant to him
    Udge Watanabe: entering his perception
    Udge Watanabe: whereas I think Scath and Fefonz were using it in a more "physical" way, simply what happens when appearance appears.
    Fefonz Quan: arising:1. to come into being: the opportunity for action did not arise 2. to come into notice: people can seek answers to their problems as and when they arise 3. arise from to happen as a result of 4. Old-fashioned to get or stand up [Old English ārīsan]
    Udge Watanabe: arising in hte sense that water vapour builds up to clouds
    Udge Watanabe: Mick's arising is internal, yours is external
    Mickorod Renard: hold on,,I need to catch up
    Fefonz Quan: well, entering a perception sounds solid to me
    Fefonz Quan: without the "particularly" part
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm. not quite, both external and internal are arisings
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Udge Watanabe: Mick, how does that sound to you?
    Scathach Rhiadra: thoughts, emotions are internal but arisings as well
    Mickorod Renard: phew,,just cought up on chat
    arabella Ella: yes i expect my emotions for another person could be an experience of arising too
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I can see the two interpretations
    Fefonz Quan: i think this is a most important point Scath, when we look at appearances we do not define between internal and external
    Mickorod Renard: and the validity
    arabella Ella: yes the internal and external aspects of arising are very interesting i agree
    Fefonz Quan: (because if we would, we define the "self" border, which we don;t want to do
    arabella Ella nods
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fefonz Quan: buddhism define teh Mind as teh sixth sense
    Fefonz Quan: while the eye sense images, teh ear sounds etc., teh mind sense thought, emotions etc.
    Fefonz Quan: but just as another sense, on teh same level as others
    Fefonz Quan: the* the* the* :)
    arabella Ella: yes or smell or touch
    Mickorod Renard: you must excuse my lapse in chat as i am busy in doin the guardian stuf..he he
    Fefonz Quan: sorry for asking, but what stuff is ther to do now? ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: dont embarrass me Fef
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Udge Watanabe: it's OK, Mick, you are doing well.
    Fefonz Quan suspect he might find there are more task than he is aware of :)
    arabella Ella: reflection perhaps on how emotions invade our experience of arising?
    Mickorod Renard: and my spelling ,,ouch
    Mickorod Renard: do you think invade is the word?..i think they aluminate them
    Udge Watanabe: my emotions do sometimes seem to capture my awareness :)
    Fefonz Quan: they invade as much as the sun light invade the table we see
    arabella Ella: but Fefonz you have more experience don't you
    Mickorod Renard: we can attach a flavour or an identity to them
    Fefonz Quan: i;m not sure experience have to do with it
    arabella Ella: it takes time practice and experience to get to the stage where you are
    arabella Ella: and patience too
    Fefonz Quan: not at all, so i ws misunderstood i guess
    Udge Watanabe nods. that is what I meant, I lack the practice in not becoming overwrought :)
    Udge Watanabe: (double negative, sorry fef :)
    arabella Ella: apologies if i have misunderstood
    Fefonz Quan: not at all. i just say that if we see a table - this is appearance,
    Fefonz Quan: if we feel strongly towards it - that 's an appearance
    Fefonz Quan: if it reminds us of our beloved ones - that memory is an appearance
    Fefonz Quan: and if we are overwhelmed by emotin - that emotion is an appearance
    Mickorod Renard: but if we feel strongly for the table then its attracted an emotion?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, appearances can seem causal. if a stone hit the table and caused it to move -
    Fefonz Quan: so one appearances created another
    Mickorod Renard: I think the heart of my puzzlement is: can we have an arising without noticing it ,,much
    Mickorod Renard: not well phrased but u know what i mean
    Mickorod Renard: like for eg,,we let things pass all day without taking much notice
    Fefonz Quan: So i guess that were not appearing to us at all, but where are the emotions coming in?
    Fefonz Quan: they*
    Mickorod Renard: as soon as you register something,,it becomes an arising,,but by that time its been alocated an emotion
    Fefonz Quan: does anything that you register alocates an emotion?
    Mickorod Renard: I mean like,,ahhh,,there s my dog
    Mickorod Renard: or,,oh no,,here comes my boss
    Mickorod Renard: or,,wow,,look at that rainbow
    Fefonz Quan: So there are two things here: one, can there be "neutral" event (there is A dog, this is a table, etc.)
    Mickorod Renard: but we may see a piece of paper on the floor,,and just ignor it
    Scathach Rhiadra: but the seeing of the piece of paper is an arising, once you perceive it, no matter how lightly
    Udge Watanabe: so arising for you has nothing to do with my response.
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,that answers my question,,although not as I had hoped
    Fefonz Quan: sorry, back now
    Mickorod Renard: hi
    Udge Watanabe: wb
    Fefonz Quan: agree with Scath
    Mickorod Renard: I was sort of hoping that arising comes from an effort,,ie,,like an elevated awareness
    Scathach Rhiadra: what was your response Udge?
    Fefonz Quan: Udge, i do thing that a response can arise, and it is very interesting to watch those responses
    Udge Watanabe: Scath, you dissociated the arising as fact in the world from my response to it. I was noting that, because I am also struggling with terms and meaning here.
    Fefonz Quan: maybe observing our responses is the most important tool in understanding who we are
    Fefonz Quan: what make us click
    Udge Watanabe: even if the paper arouses no emotion or interest in me, its presence is an arising.
    Mickorod Renard: mmmm
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, I understand now
    arabella Ella: it is interesting to see the different viewpoints and likely too the different meanings each of us seem to give to arising
    Mickorod Renard: but when we look at arising in detail,,from a meditational point of view,,we do see it more aluminated
    Fefonz Quan: what is Aluminated?
    arabella Ella: illuminated?
    Udge Watanabe: *illuminated
    Mickorod Renard: sorry,,yes
    Mickorod Renard: where did i get that from
    Mickorod Renard: is it french?
    Fefonz Quan: ah, ok :) it could gave a metalic glare to all things :)
    arabella Ella smiles
    Mickorod Renard: I have been in france for years,,before commin home
    Fefonz Quan: i am still confused a little between arisig and appearance or appearing
    Udge Watanabe is glad he isn't the only one.
    Mickorod Renard: if arising is what appearsmmwhy give it another name?
    Scathach Rhiadra: me too:)
    Udge Watanabe: and yet we speak with such conviction :)
    buddha Nirvana: ty all _/\_
    Mickorod Renard: bye buddha
    Fefonz Quan: i thought arising is like movement of appearances
    Udge Watanabe: bye buddha, take care.
    arabella Ella: my way of seeing arising is different ... for me arising (as a novice) involves making an effort to perceive visually, sound, touch, whatever, at a different level from the usual
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye buddha
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Buddha
    Mickorod Renard: same as me Ara,,but i am novice too
    Udge Watanabe: which would make it "internal" for you, Ara, in the sense I started with.
    arabella Ella: yes Udge
    Udge Watanabe: the arising-ness is in you, your heightened perception, not in what the object does
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, now I'm confused:)
    Fefonz Quan: me too :)
    arabella Ella: yes ,,, but does an object ever really do anything apart from our perception of it?
    Mickorod Renard: ok so far udge
    arabella Ella: however our perception can be at various levels
    Scathach Rhiadra: everything arises, what I perceive is the arising
    Udge Watanabe: it "does" to you in that it arouses your interest, raises your perception to a higher level
    arabella Ella: superficial or in depth or otherwise
    Fefonz Quan: Solo, some help here ? :)
    Udge Watanabe: which others do not.
    arabella Ella: exactly Udge
    Udge Watanabe: solo, right on time.
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Solobill Laville: I like listening :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,aluminate us solo
    Solobill Laville: lol! WIth what??
    Udge Watanabe: we are trying to position "arising" on the continuum between me (my perceptoin) and the world (appearances)
    Fefonz Quan: i think there is a confusion between arosing and arising Udge
    Udge Watanabe: ah :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin,,it means illuminate
    Fefonz Quan: arousing *
    Solobill Laville: Well, in terms of a statement from Buddhism, such as "dependent arising"
    Solobill Laville: I'd ask Stim ;)
    Mickorod Renard: hey,,I been aroused before
    Mickorod Renard: in my long lost memories
    Fefonz Quan: i see it more as "becoming" (and then begoing)
    Mickorod Renard: phew..wipes his brow
    Udge Watanabe: not bad for a first attempt :)
    Fefonz Quan: i open my eyes - and the whole world arises before me
    Mickorod Renard: has someone vanished?
    Udge Watanabe: corvi poofed, probably connection trouble again
    Mickorod Renard: ty
    Fefonz Quan: or dream workshop
    Udge Watanabe: no, she's offline
    Mickorod Renard: oh yea..I do dreams too
    Udge Watanabe: Mick, have you claimed the session?
    Mickorod Renard: not yet
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    Mickorod Renard: when do I do that?
    Udge Watanabe: click on the base of the fountain and select "claim" from the menu
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Corvi, wb :)
    Udge Watanabe: wb corvi
    Scathach Rhiadra: wb Corvi
    Udge Watanabe: you can do that at any time during hte meeting
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks.
    Solobill Laville: brb
    Fefonz Quan: did it work Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: w back
    Mickorod Renard: not yet
    Udge Watanabe: oh, I hope Wol remembered to add you to the list of GOCs
    Mickorod Renard: thought i was
    Fefonz Quan: left click below the "recording" in teh middle of the fountain
    Udge Watanabe: when you click on it, what happens?
    Udge Watanabe: the grey stone pyramid bit
    Udge Watanabe: there!
    Scathach Rhiadra: yay!
    Mickorod Renard: yep,,done it thanks
    Fefonz Quan: hooray!
    Mickorod Renard: was right clickin
    Mickorod Renard: now |I have the lurgy
    Udge Watanabe: aaah, true. the habits of explanation. "click on" almost always means "right-click" in SL
    arabella Ella: well done mick for your first session, went well
    Mickorod Renard: and have to get rid of it,,grin
    Mickorod Renard: thankyou
    Mickorod Renard: and thankyou for being well behaved
    Udge Watanabe throws a paper airplane at solo
    Scathach Rhiadra: give us time...:)
    arabella Ella: well i had intented to give you a really tough time but ...
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Fefonz Quan: but you are too compassionate Ara :)
    Udge Watanabe: that must be it.
    arabella Ella smiles
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Mickorod Renard: I must admit,,I found the discussion interesting
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Fefonz Quan: me too. and that is before we went to the co-arising from lst pheno sessions :)
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    arabella Ella nods
    Fefonz Quan: that left me co-pezzled
    arabella Ella: LOL
    arabella Ella: translation pls?
    arabella Ella: pezzled?
    Fefonz Quan: pazzled*
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am just musing over co arising myself
    arabella Ella: puzzled?
    Udge Watanabe: poozled?
    Scathach Rhiadra: plexed?
    arabella Ella: like illumination?
    Mickorod Renard: thought I best get arising clear in head first
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    Mickorod Renard: i am well aluminated
    arabella Ella is pixeled not aluminated
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Fefonz Quan: if SL would have the feature to open a small window to other place
    Udge Watanabe: /me's university thinks he is alumni'd
    Fefonz Quan: in SL simultaniously
    arabella Ella: LOL
    Mickorod Renard: ah ha,,the aluminati
    Fefonz Quan: Wow, a university that hinks1 that's an inteligent institute :)
    Fefonz Quan: thinks*
    arabella Ella: my uni thinks i'm titaniumed
    Udge Watanabe: :)
    arabella Ella: nite Scath
    Fefonz Quan: bye Scath :)
    Solobill Laville is back and very tardy
    Udge Watanabe: 'night scath, take care
    Solobill Laville: bye, scath
    Udge Watanabe: that is the most important part, get your starting point right.
    Fefonz Quan: go to dream now :), see you all
    Mickorod Renard: night scath
    arabella Ella: bye Fefonz
    Udge Watanabe: you should be viewing the current-month page, with the list of existing posts this month
    Mickorod Renard: bye fefonz,,ty
    Solobill Laville: bye, fef
    Udge Watanabe: not the year page, and also not a single session
    Udge Watanabe: bye fefonz
    Mickorod Renard: yep,,03
    Udge Watanabe: right.
    arabella Ella: bye i must go too
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
    Udge Watanabe: now open another window, and go to the URL that the listener will give ou when you end the session
    Udge Watanabe: bye ara, bye solo, take care.
    Mickorod Renard: byeeee
    Solobill Laville: me too, bye all!
    Udge Watanabe: 'night all
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Udge, nice to see you again :)
    Udge Watanabe: likewise!
    Mickorod Renard: night,,and bye

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