2009.03.15 13:00 - Being time is 0th time

Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session, filling in for Maxine.

Arisia Vita: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: hiya Arisa
Mickorod Renard: are you well?
Arisia Vita: yes, and I hope you are well and happy too
Mickorod Renard: yes I am thanks
Mickorod Renard: are you europe based or usa?
Arisia Vita: us, tennessee
Arisia Vita: Hi Riddle
Mickorod Renard: cool
Mickorod Renard: Hi riddle
Arisia Vita: Hi Fefonz
Riddle Sideways: Hi Everybody
Mickorod Renard: hi fefonz
Arisia Vita: Hi Pila
Mickorod Renard: hi Pila
Fefonz Quan: Hey arisia, Riddle, Pila, mick :)
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Arisia Vita: Ari is easier... and preferred... :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
Mickorod Renard: hi Adams
Fefonz Quan: Hey Adams :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Ade
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
Adams Rubble: Hello Pila, Arisia, Riddle, Mickerod, Fefonz, Pema and Adelene and Tarmel too :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi ade
Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Pema Pera: Hi Everybody!
Riddle Sideways: Hi back ateverybody that just entered :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Pema
Adelene Dawner: ok, I'm going to wait 'till everything load so I don't walk through anybody else...
Fefonz Quan: Hey Ade, tarmel, pema :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Doug :)
Pila Mulligan: hi doug
doug Sosa: hi eveyrone
Mickorod Renard: tarmel ;-)
Tarmel Udimo: Hi All:-)
Mickorod Renard: hiya dough
Mickorod Renard: doug
Wol Euler: evening all, sorry Im late
Adams Rubble: Hello Scath and Wol :)
Mickorod Renard: hi scath , wol
Pila Mulligan: hi Scath and Wol
Fefonz Quan: Hey wol, Scath :)
Tarmel Udimo: you look loverly today Ade:-)
Pema Pera: early enough, Wol!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello All
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ Thanks, Tarmel.
Wol Euler: brb, tea is brewing.
Adams Rubble: Hello Shilv :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Shilv
Mickorod Renard: Hi shilv
Shilv Tigerauge: Hi all
Fefonz Quan: Hi Shiilv
Mickorod Renard: yea,,my dinner will be coming soon
Wol Euler: back and sipping :)
Mickorod Renard: nice,,mine is with milk and two sugars please

The session begins -- if anything can be said to really have a "beginning".

Pema Pera: Shall we get started? This is the second theme session, on "Zeroth Time" or "Timeless Time" or the "Eternal Now". For the first session, a week ago, see http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...-__Zeroth_time
Pema Pera: Maxine is normally leading this session series with me, but she is traveling today. Fortunately, Wol is standing in for Maxine; thank you Wol !
Wol Euler smiles apprehensively
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: Last week I introduced our quest as follows:

Pema Pera: We all stroll together on the beach, near the shoreline between the relative and the absolute, looking for pretty pebbles
Pema Pera: there are three things we do with the pretty pebbles
Pema Pera: we see them, share them, compare them

Pema Pera: Hi Wendy, welcome to Play as Being!
Pema Pera: (Wendy is a friend who I invited to join us)
Wendy Chaplin: thanks :-)
Pema Pera: We then spent the rest of the hour gathering pebbles, sharing them. We came up with more than a dozen; see the chat log above for a whole list. They ranged from a felt sense of the everpresent never cresting wave of now, the point of the pen on the paper as a moment of continuing contact, the touch and eternal salt water smell of actual pebbles, hearing a song and being in all the places at once where you've heard it before, and so on, to a complete story about an all-seeing owl by Pila.
Wol Euler: hello wendy
Mickorod Renard: hi wendy
Pema Pera: Today I suggest we continue gathering and sharing, and begin comparing, asking ourselves what we can learn from those special moments. Can they help us to open up to "zeroth time"?
Pema Pera: Wol, would you like to say something, apprehensively or not :-) ?
Wol Euler chuckles
Riddle Sideways: welcome Wendy
Wol Euler: I started by putting on a CD, a piece of music written in 1536.
Wol Euler: seems appropriate to discussion of time
Wendy Chaplin: hi all
Wol Euler: beause that is time, pure history, pastness.
Wol Euler: but it is not perception. I wasn't tehre, it is not my interpretation of seen events that this music is 450 years old

Apparently I believe that this is 1986! Talk about timelessness.

Wol Euler: Zeroeth time is alive to us perhaps as memory or as imagination (which may be close to the same thing)
Wol Euler: the emotions that were attached to the pebbles we found last week are still alive in us, memory carries an emotional load which can be surprisingly intense
Wol Euler looks to Pema. OK so far?
Pema Pera: so far so good, Wol ! :-)
Wol Euler: damn, I was hoping you would contradict and let me out of hte spotlight
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: hahaha, that reminds me of what we did many moons ago, Wol
Wol Euler: indeed, I was thinking of htat earlier.
Pema Pera: You played like Pema and I played like Wol, arguing for the other side, remember that?
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Pema Pera: we should do that again
Wol Euler laughs. Now?
Pema Pera: I remember you found it surprisingly what -- hard, odd ?
Wol Euler: both!
Pema Pera: not now, I think :-)
Pema Pera sees a new theme session coming up, hehe
Wol Euler: why do I not remember the next time that we do this, later this Spring?
Riddle Sideways: :)
Pema Pera: well, Wol, I won't forget!
Pema Pera: just for background for Wendy and others who may be new at this kind of meeting:
Pema Pera: normally we view the world in terms of past-present-future (PPF) time
Pema Pera: three aspects of what seems like a line, a linear way of thinking about time, with the present a tiny point somewhere in the middle
Pema Pera: the term "zeroth time" or "fourth time" hints at a different way of experiencing time
Pema Pera: as a kind of "eternal now" you could say
Pema Pera: Well, let us open the floor for comments, more gems, questions, suggestions!
Pila Mulligan: an idea: light has a subtle but observable quality (aside from measurable properties) and some moments involve a higher quality of light
Pila Mulligan: this relates to the topic :)
Riddle Sideways: in the previous dialog we saw wol and Pema holding the same pebble, had held that pebble and will again hold that pebble
Pema Pera enjoys watching Riddle's new tag: < "this" >
Mickorod Renard: I saw that wol brought up emotions,,which I think may be significant
Riddle Sideways: {I really like that title - best}
Pema Pera: yes, Pila, great pebble -- quality of light!
Wol Euler: emotion seems to me significant in appreciating zeroeth time, yes (insofar as we can appreciate it)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,like a measure of quality of experience
Pema Pera: but more as a side effect, I would say
Pema Pera: we can be very emotional in PPF
Arisia Vita: welcome Rain
Pema Pera: and also very serene in 0th time
Wol Euler: true
Rain Rappaport: hey there everyone :)
Pema Pera: Hi Rain, come join us!
Mickorod Renard: I was thinking of serene as an emotion
Mickorod Renard: ;-)
Pema Pera: welcome back, Rain
Arisia Vita: welcome Chi...
Chiaiu Chiung: hi everyone
Rain Rappaport: ty Pema
Pema Pera: yes, Mick, but the emotion doesn't drive the experience, I think
Pema Pera: Something opens, and 0th time becomes more noticeable
Pema Pera: and yes, emotions can follow in its wake
Mickorod Renard: but an emotion does register the experience in another department
Wol Euler: I think I disagree. I don't see how 0th time can be "perceived", it seems to me taht we can only intuit its existence, imagine its contours and texture
Adams Rubble: I would think emotions here might be misleading
Wol Euler: because our organs of perception are aligned along this PPF axis.
Mickorod Renard: ok,,yes
Adams Rubble: It is indropping things like emotions that we can approach it
Pema Pera: yes, I agree Wol
Pema Pera: 0th time opens up, and the doer drops away . . . .
Pema Pera: but we don't lose or deny or ignore emotions - they continue
Pema Pera: but are seen in a different light
Wol Euler: agreed
Pema Pera: and often are intensified, yes
Tarmel Udimo: agreed
Riddle Sideways: possibly, Wol if your perception isonly along the existing PPF axis you can not side aside to see/be toward 0th time
Pema Pera: like that light you mentioned
Mickorod Renard: some things,,like perhaps associated with this,,like music,,can be recognised emotionally but without words
Wol Euler: I understand perception as a "doing", something that is done by a person using bodily organs that are bound in space and time
Pila Mulligan: how about observation, Wol?
Pila Mulligan: passive observation
Wol Euler: I agree that the moment (call it that :-) of insight when we have glimpses of 0th time are outside of "doing"
Riddle Sideways: hmmmmm, I understand perception to be more a mental/thought process
Wol Euler: but not done with your mind.
Wol Euler: imagination is not perception, to me. Dreams are not perception
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: am I being too literal?
Pila Mulligan: no
Fefonz Quan: nop
Mickorod Renard: thinking about that
Wol Euler: which is why I feel that the doer cannot perceive 0th time. perception is a doing
Pila Mulligan: can't there be a dream like element in waking perception?

Does timelessness overlap with Wu wei and Flow?

Pema Pera: perhaps we can do without doing . . . wu-wei . . . when 0th time opens up, we don't lose the ability to act, but the whole sense of acting changes
doug Sosa: dreaming is full mind. perception is mind constrained by external conditions.
Pema Pera: yes, Pila, nice angle!
Pema Pera: and yes, Doug!
Mickorod Renard: perception is just intuitive recognition
Wol Euler: I am pondering the meaning of "acting" in 0th time...
Pema Pera: how about a jazz player, Wol?
Pema Pera: improvising in a jam session?
Pema Pera: from one angle no free will, no will-ful doing
Pema Pera: from another angle wonderful doing
Pema Pera: ideally in 0th time
Wol Euler frowns. How is that free of PPF time? the musician is counting "one two three four"
Pema Pera: counting can happen in 0th time too
Pema Pera: it is not something outside PPF
Pema Pera: it encompasses all that we like to tell ourselves, within 0th time
Pema Pera: even the fairy tale of PPF :)
Adelene Dawner: If you're doing it right, *you* are not counting - the 1-2-3-4 just... happens. :)
Pema Pera: yes, Adelene!
Riddle Sideways: yes, Ade
Chiaiu Chiung: and it is not linear, but circular
Pema Pera: PPF is a fiction . . . useful, but dangerous when clung to
Wol Euler: ok, I'll grant that :)
Wol Euler: (ade, not pema)
Adelene Dawner: Reminds me of my art, actually...
Mickorod Renard: so,,its a stepping out of concious ppf
Mickorod Renard: and into zeroth
Adelene Dawner: the best stuff happens when I'm not thinking 'art' at all... I don't even thing it's art afterward, someone has to come by and say 'hey, that should be in a gallery' or whatever.
Pema Pera: opening up for, more than stepping out, perhaps, Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: I agree Pema
Chiaiu Chiung: so you are doing, but without intention, and without a subject who is the doer
Tarmel Udimo: perhaps this might help, when i was still dancing and performing my own choreography, there was one performance where I was not only in the moment dancing, (also hitting certain marks on stage and pieces of music) but was also able to be outside and be aware of my performance and also felt completely linked to the audience and it was all happening simultaneously in 0th time (a pebble)
Pema Pera: yes, Chi!
Pema Pera: yes, very much so, Tarmel, thank you !!
Tarmel Udimo: when one is creating one is always in 0th time
Mickorod Renard: yes,,it reminds me of the whirling dervishes
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pema Pera: yes, that's a hall mark
Wol Euler: I think I am being far too literal about the "time" aspect of "0th time"
Pema Pera: but easily overlooked
Pema Pera: and forgotten
Fefonz Quan also find it hard to connect all those to 0th time (like wol maybe)
Pema Pera: yes, Wol and Fefonz, words are so tricky . . . . ..
Wol Euler: if the flow state or the Tao are 0th time, then I can accept everything htat has been said :)
Pema Pera: yes, all those point to the same
Pema Pera: in different ways
Tarmel Udimo: we are all do good at multitasking in practical ways but seem to have a challenge when we begin speaking about 'multitasking' in other ways
Tarmel Udimo: percieving, oberving, dreaming, loving, this can all be taking place at once
Pema Pera: what I am trying to say with "0th time" is to provide a kind of stage upon which to say "PPF is a fiction" -- if I were to say it without stage, it would come across as nihilistic, negative, pure denial . . . .
Tarmel Udimo: observing
Pema Pera: yes, in the kind of "flow" that Wol pointed to
Wol Euler: I am reminded of an drawing by M.C.Escher, where a cityscape is expanded enormously, bulging out towrads us, to show a person standing in a window the neighbours of which can hardly be seen.
Wol Euler: that is the flow non-time as it happens in the middle of PPF
Fefonz Quan: but Pema, no one here think tht the past exist, surely it is unaproachable, it "existed" hence does no exist...

Is linear time just a tale we tell ourselves?

Pema Pera: ah, but we have an ingrained attitude of believing in PPF Fefonz, our whole way of being is tuned to that, from childhood on . . . . not easy to drop that
Tarmel Udimo: if that were true there would be no need for therapy:-)
Wol Euler: or refrigerators
Wol Euler: or life insurance
Pema Pera: And Tarmel, I like the contrast to multi-tasking and no-tasking
Pema Pera: without seeing activitites as tasks, you can do so many things naturally at once
Tarmel Udimo: better way of saying it:-)
Pema Pera: in a flow
Pema Pera: your inspiration, Tarmel, I merely repackaged :-)
Pema Pera: in 0th time no need for therapy for sure
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Pema Pera: (don't let Maxine hear that)
Adams Rubble: :)
Tarmel Udimo: fefonz we carry our past with us all the time
Fefonz Quan: well, maxine would say that it is easier to heal than show 0th time :)
Wol Euler: heheh
Pema Pera: :-)
Fefonz Quan: sure, tarmel, we carry out, but don't think it exist now
Tarmel Udimo: but it does
Fefonz Quan: how so?
Tarmel Udimo: the residue of it, the emotion of it the memory of it, your response to everything you see and feel
Tarmel Udimo: it filtres and colours everything we do
Tarmel Udimo: so its is still 'alive' within us:-)
Mickorod Renard: the memory,,and that is in our head now,,not then
Fefonz Quan: yes, but the meemory is now, not in the past. in fact my claim was just to show that 0th time is much more radical than saying that the past does not exist
Tarmel Udimo: that's because you have seperated them into linear time

The continuing existence of the past.

Pila Mulligan: Fefonz, some cultures believe that the past continues to exist in geographical places, much the same as it does in human memory
Pema Pera: Fef, we spent most of our time in the future and past, mentally . . . . with worries and regrets, all the time, as a background way of living - very few of us escape that to a significant degree
Tarmel Udimo: in 0th time i think they all exist
Fefonz Quan: yes, Pila, physicist too, but we don't claim it here
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera nods to PIla and Tarmel
Pila Mulligan: oops
Mickorod Renard: what about if all time existed now,,but we only percieve now
Mickorod Renard: erm
Fefonz Quan: No Tarmel Pema, i wouldn't suspect pema means that the past exist now. corrrect me if imwrong
Mickorod Renard: if u know what i mean
Pema Pera: let's go slow, Fefonz
Pema Pera: there is a difference between existing and being accessable
Wol Euler: ((hold that thought, Mick, we'll come to it next))
Pema Pera: between existing and opening itself to us
Riddle Sideways: yes, Mick is very good way to look at it loosely
Tarmel Udimo: (yes)
Fefonz Quan: (i was following:[13:43] Tarmel Udimo: in 0th time i think they all exist)'
Pema Pera: I think Tarmel may want to point to a kind of accessibility
Pema Pera: not a heavy handed "existence"
Pema Pera: an openness, as in arising
Tarmel Udimo: ty pema:-) yes exactly!
Mickorod Renard: to diferent times?
Pema Pera: let me give an example

Sensing the presence of 0th time.

Pema Pera: if I am deeply devotionally attracted to a historical time or place or person or whatever
Pema Pera: and if I then really find ways to open up to that
Pema Pera: something may --- i'm at a loss for words -- "happen" is not right
Pila Mulligan: sensation?
Pema Pera: something may show itself that would be interpreted by the PPF mind as the past becoming alive, accessible
Riddle Sideways: a shifting?
Pema Pera: but that's a shadow a projection onto the PPF miind
Pema Pera: mind
Fefonz Quan: are we talking about seeing dead people?
Pema Pera: what is really opening up can only be understood within 0th time
Pila Mulligan: or past events?
Pema Pera: that way of phrasing it is not quite correct
Pema Pera: within 0th time there are no people, there is no life and death . . . .
Adelene Dawner: Is 'grok' useful here, Pem?
Pema Pera: sure, Adelene :-)
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: we have to go really really slowly
Fefonz Quan waves for grok explanation...
Riddle Sideways: am thinking of authors of historical novels
Pila Mulligan: Stranger in a Strange Land
Pema Pera: and be wiling to get back to square one each time
Pema Pera: otherwise we fall in the trap of using PPF terms
Adelene Dawner: Fef: To know to the point where the known thing becomes part of you.
Pema Pera: past--present-future terms
Fefonz Quan: ok
Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok - ignore the programming-related variants :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes Ade I think that is also a good way to put it
Pila Mulligan: "Like many influential works of literature, Stranger made a contribution to the language: specifically, the word "grok." In Heinlein's invented Martian language, "grok" literally means "to drink" and figuratively means "to understand," "to love," and "to be one with.". One dictionary description was "To understand thoroughly through having empathy with". "
Pema Pera: yes, Riddle! (authors of historical novels)
Riddle Sideways: grok can extend to knowing the past, present, future of that thing all at the same
Tarmel Udimo: likes 'grok' I 'grok' you all:-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: hehehe
Pema Pera: yes, and in the drinking of "grok" you empty both your glass and yourself . . .
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Tarmel Udimo: ahhh back to Being

The title is spoken.

Pema Pera: yes, Being time is 0th time
Riddle Sideways: Being seems an easier vehicle to step in/out of 0th time
Mickorod Renard: it has a spiritual ring too o it
Pema Pera: for Being there is no stepping in or out
Pema Pera: always in 0th time
Pema Pera: we play as if we can step into the fantasy of PPF
Pema Pera: but it's only an illusion
Riddle Sideways: meant our personal PPF moving in/out of Being
Mickorod Renard: as in,,excuse the religion,,jesus saying,,drink my water and u will never thirst
Pema Pera: but Riddle we cannever move out of Being !
Pema Pera: yes, living water points to that, Mick
Wol Euler: (actually, Pema, I think that sociopaths and mass murderers are exactly people who have moved out of Being)
Pema Pera: religions are based on experiience, but then often get confused with wrong theory
Pema Pera: no Wol
Riddle Sideways: true, yet we have a self that sometimes thinks (?) that WE are outside
Pema Pera: that's too simple
Pema Pera: (to Wol)
Riddle Sideways: more like INSIDE ourselves
Pema Pera: but our "self" is an illusion, Riddle
Pema Pera: shall we pick up on Wol's point?
Pema Pera: important point! evil doers
Riddle Sideways: yet we give over so much of real to that illusion
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: Wol, can you say more?
Tarmel Udimo: yes that's whole problem 13:55] Riddle Sideways: true, yet we have a self that sometimes thinks (?) that WE are outside
Pema Pera: indeed!
Wol Euler: um, not really without getting tied in knots.
Pema Pera: in the West we like to make a neat cut
Wol Euler: it'S a feeling more than an idea.
Pema Pera: most people are more or less okay, and some are really bad to the point of being evil
Pema Pera: by making that cut, we can stay at the safe side . . . .
Pema Pera: but that seems too arbitrary
Tarmel Udimo: feeling good starting place to express Being
Tarmel Udimo: (to Wol)
Pema Pera: Being allows everything from teh most sublime to the most atrocious . . . .
Pila Mulligan: ethics anyone?
Riddle Sideways: "allows" seems a very importantwork in your sentense
Mickorod Renard: free will
Pema Pera: but I empathize with your feeling, Wol, and the disgust implied by it!
Pema Pera: seconding Tarmel
Wol Euler: sorrow more than disgust actually
Mickorod Renard: sorrow and discust
Wol Euler: Being may allow it, but I find it hard to think that someone in touch with Being could be a sociopath
Pema Pera: yes, Riddle, Being allows the illusion of heaven and hell to appear . . . REAL heaven and REAL hell
Wol Euler: we are talking in opposite diretions
Pila Mulligan: there's the rub
Pema Pera: ah, in touch is different, Wol !
Pema Pera: but out of touch doesn't mean out of Being
Riddle Sideways: sometimes it approaches the "if there is a god, how could it allow this to happen" type thoughts
Pema Pera: still part of Being
Fefonz Quan: well, we are talking of the dark side of being here
Wol Euler: ok, I expressed myself sloppily.
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Fefonz Quan: a path known as dengerous

The hour is up, and people start to leave.

Adams Rubble slips quietly away. bye all :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Adams
Wol Euler: Pema do you have another quarter-hour for us?
Riddle Sideways: bye adams
Wol Euler: bye adams
Tarmel Udimo: bye
Fefonz Quan: bye adams
Pema Pera: Fighting evil requires enormous courage when you consider evil as real; but when seen as part of the illusion, it becomes easier AND far more effecive to fight evil
Pila Mulligan: there seems to be a consensus that we experience special moments -- that something 'special' can be an element of a moment
Pila Mulligan: special moments inform us ... without them, nihilism becomes attractive
Pema Pera: quarter of an hour, Wol?
Wol Euler: to go back to Mick's suggestion :)
Wol Euler: you often leave on the hour
Pema Pera: yes, I have an appointment, but I can try to postpone it by 15 minutes
Wol Euler: :)
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Wol Euler: [13:44] Mickorod Renard: what about if all time existed now,,but we only percieve now
Rain Rappaport: I have to go myself...bye everyone :)
Fefonz Quan: :--)
Pema Pera: okay, succeeded, Wol!
Wol Euler: bye rain, take care
Pema Pera: 15 more minutes :)
Pema Pera: By Rain
Tarmel Udimo: bye
Wol Euler: me cheers
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Rain
Pema Pera: shoot, Wol :-)
Wol Euler: shoot, Mick :-)
Riddle Sideways: bye and a most interesting point of view to take
Mickorod Renard: erm
Wol Euler: bye riddle
Pema Pera: bye Riddle!
Tarmel Udimo: bye
Riddle Sideways: allowing all time to exist
Riddle Sideways: I not leaving yet
Riddle Sideways: :)
Wol Euler: ah, sorry
Pema Pera: Riddle above time :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Riddle Sideways: with lag
Pema Pera: Wol, was there a particular point that you felt hadn't been dealt with adequately yet?
Mickorod Renard: ok,,well,,I get the feeling that all time exists now,,its not linear but we can only package it that way
Wol Euler: someone who lived only in "now" would have no memory, so they would probably also not have an idea of "future".
Fefonz Quan: well, you can have a memory now
Wol Euler: sounds more like a vision of Hell than 0th time to me
Pema Pera: yes, if we associate ourselves with the usual view of teh world, THEN you are right Wol. We have to go further back, deeper into the roots of our views
Wol Euler: please do :)
Pema Pera: well, where to start :-)
Wendy Chaplin: i must go now bye everybody -)
Fefonz Quan: i person in a movie scene/frame carries the whole past memory in that frame
Pema Pera: by Wendy!
Mickorod Renard: bye wendy
Wol Euler: bye wendy, tak care
Wendy Chaplin: thks

Gems and logic.

Pema Pera: you see, Wol, the reason to start with the gems, is to start with the right kind of experiential feeling tone
Pema Pera: if we start with analysis, we can't help but already buying in to the picture we grew up with
Pema Pera: PPF
Mickorod Renard: gems or pebbles?
Pema Pera: and then there is no way out
Pema Pera: ah, pebbles yes :)
Pema Pera: gems of pebbles!
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Pema Pera: in other words, Wol, you can't get there from here
Mickorod Renard: is there no way out?
Wol Euler: yeah, I am gathering that.
Pema Pera: projecting a description of 0th time onto PPF sounds strange, wrong, absurd
Fefonz Quan: no way in Mick :)
Riddle Sideways: starting with were you want to be, you can work out support for it
Mickorod Renard: he he
Wol Euler: saying that there is no future ten minutes after you postponed an appointment sounds just as strange to me :)
Fefonz Quan: hehe
Pema Pera: the two are only in contradiction within the limited logic of PPF, Wol :-)
Pema Pera: water can be wet even though it is made of atoms and atoms can never be wet
Wol Euler: Pema, I am not hostile, I am struggling to understand this.
Pema Pera: there can be different logics happening at the same time
Pema Pera: I know, Wol :)
Wol Euler: Just clarifying :)
Pema Pera: I'm groping for words to indicate what the problem is :)
Pema Pera: we really should switch roles soon again, Wol !
Wol Euler laughs
Riddle Sideways: keeping myself in my multiple limited logics is easy
Riddle Sideways: working out a grand unified logic is hard
Mickorod Renard: I know I think something of the problem,,its knowing something but without an explaination that will work for everyone
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: yes, Mick, I like to call it "seeing"
Pema Pera: as does Stim
Squee: There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth. Not going all the way, and not starting. 
Wol Euler: thank you, squee.
Tarmel Udimo: yes Squee!
Riddle Sideways: TY Squee
Tarmel Udimo: 'seeing' requires us to come at things in a more oblique way
Riddle Sideways: putting myself at the end of the road / at truth helps mefind out what path it took to getthere
Riddle Sideways: a thing I can not see from the start point
Fefonz Quan supports Wol struglle to clarifying

Goodbyes, planning and a spoiler.

Pema Pera: Sorry, have to run now, if I want to stay in the PPF illusion that is, and yes, I like to play along with that illusion :-)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,like the story of the vission I had about the old guy on the stairs
Pema Pera: see you next time!
Mickorod Renard: bye Pema
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
Riddle Sideways: bye pema
Fefonz Quan: i think it is most important here,
Fefonz Quan: Bye Pema
Wol Euler: thank you pema, it was a good fight :)
Tarmel Udimo: I don't think one can 'understand' this, because first you have to actually accept that it may be possible
Mickorod Renard: yes fefonz?
Chiaiu Chiung: bye pema
Shilv Tigerauge: bye
Tarmel Udimo: bye pema
Fefonz Quan: (talking about Wol's points)
Wol Euler: let's continue with round three another time - next sunday?
Pema Pera: hehe, Wol
Pema Pera: we'll reverse roles!
Mickorod Renard: or experience something first hand tarmel
Wol Euler: ack!
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Pema Pera: sure, this particular session series will continue in a week
Pema Pera: and Wol and I will reverse roles at another session TBD
Pema Pera: bfn!
Wol Euler nods
Tarmel Udimo: and then it is no longer is this possible or what does it mean
Pema Pera: thank you all
Wol Euler: bye, take care
Tarmel Udimo: to Mick
Tarmel Udimo: look forwad to it
Riddle Sideways: btw - in round 42 Wol scores a knock out
Wol Euler cheers!
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehehehe
Wol Euler: yay me
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Mickorod Renard: yes tarmel,,if u experience it the torture contineues,,cos u want to understand it too
Pila Mulligan also needs to depart
Wol Euler: bye pila, take care
Fefonz Quan: bye Pila
Pila Mulligan: bye everyone
Tarmel Udimo: bye pila
Adelene Dawner: ok, Pila. See you next time ^.^
Riddle Sideways: bye pila
Mickorod Renard: bye pila
Shilv Tigerauge: have to too
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pila, Shilv
Wol Euler: bye shilv
Chiaiu Chiung: going, too
Mickorod Renard: bye shilv
Shilv Tigerauge: hope to see u soon
Wol Euler: bye chiaiu
Chiaiu Chiung: bye all
Mickorod Renard: bye chialu
Shilv Tigerauge: thanks together
Shilv Tigerauge: bye
Tarmel Udimo: bye both
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Chiaiu
Riddle Sideways: bye shilv, chiaiu
Tarmel Udimo: all

We continue more or less where we left off.

Mickorod Renard: so,,u wre saying fefonz?
Tarmel Udimo: yes well I have tortured myself endlessly Mick and to no avail
Fefonz Quan: bye for all the leavers :)
Mickorod Renard: me too,,maybe we are similar
Wol Euler: ... except that it made you who you are today.
Fefonz Quan: Tarmel, i am just a little bothered with that sayings "you have to see it and it clears all"
Wol Euler: the "cloning Hitler" fallacy :)
Riddle Sideways: ummmmm, has the self-torture given any useful information
Fefonz Quan: i've heard that many times concerning god and not being
Tarmel Udimo: yes I have a head full of 'knowledge' and still often read and question looking for the 'answers'
Fefonz Quan: taht fallacy sounds interesting wol, could youelaborate?
Mickorod Renard: grin
Tarmel Udimo: but I have also surrendered
Wol Euler: well, the idea tht you could take some of his DNA and put it into a sheep ovum and produce another Reich in 45 years
Tarmel Udimo: Being has won the round:-)
Mickorod Renard: still on record
Wol Euler: the DNA wouldn't do it. The child would need to have all of his experiences at the same time, in the same order, in order to *possibly* become AH
Riddle Sideways: :-)
Fefonz Quan: a sheep with mustache wol ?
Wol Euler: yep
Fefonz Quan: :)
Wol Euler: a clone of you would not _be_ you.
Wol Euler: it would ahve none of your memory and desires
Fefonz Quan: yes, sure
Wol Euler: which is where I think that Pema is overstepping a line.
Wol Euler: calling PPF a fiction denies personality.
Tarmel Udimo: in what way?
Wol Euler: ... which he has said is also a fiction, so perhaps that is consistent.
Tarmel Udimo: perhaps he has already stepped over the line:-)
Fefonz Quan: well not exactly wol, if i understand him
Tarmel Udimo: and is living in 0th time
Riddle Sideways: is good to step over lines
Fefonz Quan: he does claim that the now includes all your past memories
Mickorod Renard: I get a distinct feeling that ppf still has to remain in our heads,,cos we cannot visualise anything more complicated than that
Riddle Sideways: sometimes we need to step out of boxes too
Fefonz Quan: hence our personality
Mickorod Renard: but it doesnt mean ppf exists as we percieve it
Fefonz Quan: no it doesn't Mick
Tarmel Udimo: yes we need ppf to function, but doesn't mean it is treu
Tarmel Udimo: ahh Mick beat me to it:-)
Wol Euler frowns.
Mickorod Renard: grin
Tarmel Udimo: ? Wol
Fefonz Quan: wol?
Wol Euler: I'm wondering about the meaning of "true" in that sentence.
Mickorod Renard: WOLLLL
Mickorod Renard: mmmm..lets not go there
Tarmel Udimo: we have a diehard in our midst:P
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I have to go
Fefonz Quan: yes, me too. i had a similar claim: if we are all in the Matrix, but can't get out, what do we care if it is not true?
Fefonz Quan: (to wol)
Tarmel Udimo: yes for most ppl its fine and they are happy to live within these constraints
Mickorod Renard: exactly,,as long as we are having fun
Mickorod Renard: but I need to knowwwwwww

Another round of goodbyes reduce us to four.

Scathach Rhiadra: I have to go too, good night all, namasté
Fefonz Quan: that's not what i meant tarmel
Mickorod Renard: bye scath
Wol Euler: 'night scath, sleep well
Fefonz Quan: bye Scath
Tarmel Udimo: bye Scath
Riddle Sideways: PPF has become very useful (it seems) and yet may or may not be the only way to be viewed
Mickorod Renard: bye all
Tarmel Udimo: bye Mick
Fefonz Quan: bye mick
Mickorod Renard: byeeeee
Riddle Sideways: bye leavers
Wol Euler: bye mick
Wol Euler: too late
Wol Euler: let's shift up
Tarmel Udimo: what did you mean Fef?
Riddle Sideways: hmmmm stiff
Tarmel Udimo: yes needing tea....
Fefonz Quan: following wol's point, about "true"
Wol Euler: I can think of no better definitoin of true than "needed to function"
Riddle Sideways: the word "true" has such an absoluteness to it
Riddle Sideways: yet is relative
Fefonz Quan: yes, that was my point. if the world around us is a supposed illusion, but this is the world we are leaving in, so it is as true as you can get
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: it is a fact that the individual atoms of water are not "wet", but I cannot perceive them.
Fefonz Quan: right. still if you don't drink them - it will not end good
Riddle Sideways: they have state
Riddle Sideways: there is always the potential for them to besolid or gas states
Riddle Sideways: they might 'remember' being solids
Fefonz Quan: i am missing your point riddle, can you say more?
Riddle Sideways: ok, that is off, but is it tooo simple
Riddle Sideways: I can apply stupid/silly statements to any subject (like atoms)
Riddle Sideways: and some how come up with
Riddle Sideways: alittle more understanding

Koans and cheese.

Wol Euler: modernist koans?
Fefonz Quan: sounds like pseudo-kuans...
Riddle Sideways: or west mind fighting with east mind parts
Riddle Sideways: amazing how many koans I take away from these hours
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan nods
Riddle Sideways: your quick little chat lines will give me hours of meditation
Riddle Sideways: and I still won't see all
Fefonz Quan: :)
Tarmel Udimo: sorry did i miss something:-)
Fefonz Quan: i share a lot of the questions you've arsied wol
Tarmel Udimo: made tea
Wol Euler: :)
Riddle Sideways: no, making tea might have made more sence (at least from my dialog)
Fefonz Quan: adn i eat lunches with Pema these days, you can assume how mind boggling that can be :)
Wol Euler laughs!
Wol Euler: denyingthe existence of the cheese in your sandwich
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Fefonz Quan: :)
Riddle Sideways: or bringing into existence a kind of cheese you desire
Wol Euler: yep
Tarmel Udimo: I think perhaps this where we get stuck or unstuck
Fefonz Quan don't eat deiry
Tarmel Udimo: none of this denies anything ie PPF
Tarmel Udimo: it is only trying to see another way of changing the veiwing lens
Riddle Sideways: yes
Fefonz Quan: yes tarmel, but i think we are trying to say more radical things
Tarmel Udimo: they don't seem radical
Fefonz Quan: than just "it can be looked differently for practice
Tarmel Udimo: to me;-)
Fefonz Quan: no time doesn't seem radical to you?
Fefonz Quan: you should come to lunch :-))
Tarmel Udimo: no I have experienced this and so have we all
Tarmel Udimo: would be happy to come to lunch
Fefonz Quan: i don't agree with tat
Wol Euler: it seems silly, self-evidently wrong, to me to say that PPF time does not exist.
Fefonz Quan: (sure agree with lunch tarmel:0)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Tarmel Udimo: but wol you said time didn't exist in a kiss
Tarmel Udimo: and we know how time can be stretched
Fefonz Quan: strectched doesn't mean not existant
Wol Euler: right, thank you
Riddle Sideways: and we can 'try on' the concepts of no-time
Fefonz Quan: dough can be stretched, still
Tarmel Udimo: well okay so in that stretching we are expereincing a 'different' time
Fefonz Quan: that i agree, but that is less radical
Tarmel Udimo: because 0th time is an experience not a thought or fact
Wol Euler: but we are xperiencing it now not in the past
Tarmel Udimo: yes and the now is endless
Wol Euler: and certainy not in the future
Wol Euler: I dont know, I cannot decide whether this is really a disagreement about meaning or just about the use fo words
Tarmel Udimo: the use of words
Fefonz Quan: i thikn it is some disagreement
Wol Euler: :)
Tarmel Udimo: well just for one minute, what if there was 'no time'
Tarmel Udimo: what would that mean:-)
Fefonz Quan: i cna't even start to imagine what ids no-time, so how can i think what it means?
Fefonz Quan: (and i tried, believe me)
Riddle Sideways: the trying is the important part
Riddle Sideways: we are all trying
Wol Euler: if there were no time, I could "remember" next tuesday and know not to step in front of the bus that kills me
Fefonz Quan: all we experience is in time, r more basically - in change
Wol Euler: hello steve
Riddle Sideways: not sure if my answer (as so far worked on) would fit your questions
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: long meeting
Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
Tarmel Udimo: hi steve
Fefonz Quan: no wol, i think that is not what we are saying
Riddle Sideways: hi Stev
Wol Euler: well, I have absolutely no idea what we are saying.
Fefonz Quan: :)
Riddle Sideways: neither does steve
Fefonz Quan: so maybe i do agree with that
stevenaia Michinaga: grins

Another opportunity for growth.

Wol Euler: (( I tell you, these discussions of time have me feeling a lot of sympathy for Samuel))
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
Riddle Sideways: :)
Tarmel Udimo: well fefonz, the next time you are making loving with your wife you will fall into 0th time and wish that it would continue forever
Fefonz Quan: well, if it is a path of sympathy and not understanding - it might be enough :)
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Riddle Sideways: 2indepent sentences?
Fefonz Quan: the difference between wishing and reality is what troubles me tarmel :)
Wol Euler: me nods.
Tarmel Udimo: will need to have an experience and then no more doubt
Fefonz Quan: (riddle - i answered wol in 1447
Riddle Sideways: Iknow :)
Riddle Sideways: this is fun
Wol Euler: in a sick and perverse way, yes it is
Tarmel Udimo: not even sure why one needs to cling to anything
Riddle Sideways: it can be as 'take a mental exercise to lunch'
Tarmel Udimo: its kind of like by opening the door to another possibility means...?
Fefonz Quan: i do recognise the feelings of bliss and joy we have in many fortunate minutes of our lives
Wol Euler: I'm fine with that, but don't present it as a fact.
Riddle Sideways: ooooo Tarmel, you may have it
Wol Euler nods: This is about words.
Fefonz Quan: yet the 0th time seems to transcend them even beyond imagination
Fefonz Quan: and i do feel tha ti am at the stage of trying to experience it, since talking seems to exhaust itself
Tarmel Udimo: yes the surrender.. good luck my friend this is only the begining
Wol Euler: :)
Tarmel Udimo: beware :-)
Fefonz Quan: even within the Matrix - time still exists
Tarmel Udimo: once you open up to the possibility you are doomed
Riddle Sideways: talking is hard,
Tarmel Udimo: very
Fefonz Quan: talking is easy, walking the path is hard
Riddle Sideways: how about imaging a different matrixie reality generator thingie that is about time
Riddle Sideways: about how our time is patterned for us
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
Riddle Sideways: time is ummmmmm, soething else
Riddle Sideways: but big brother has ummmmm
Fefonz Quan: generating meaning creating "something" that didn't exist "before", do you see the time therer riddle?
Riddle Sideways: run a trick on us
Riddle Sideways: we/I would see the idea of time as was generated for me
Fefonz Quan likes tricks when they succeed
Wol Euler: brb
Riddle Sideways: would be very hard to see ummmmm true time
Riddle Sideways: how would we discuss it
Riddle Sideways: how would I tell you about my experiences, thoughts, guesses
Riddle Sideways: ooooo I know
Riddle Sideways: we could all meet up in a virtual reality
Riddle Sideways: of a differentsort
Tarmel Udimo: heheheh
Riddle Sideways: and discuss it
Riddle Sideways: from all angles
Riddle Sideways: and disagree
Fefonz Quan: :)yes riddle
Tarmel Udimo: very clever riddle:-)
Riddle Sideways: I shall sign up for that
Tarmel Udimo: I will too
Wol Euler: back
Fefonz Quan: i think we are having a most intruiging exploration here, don't get me wrong
Riddle Sideways: wb
stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, then you are psychic
stevenaia Michinaga: opps wrong window
Riddle Sideways: I am probably getting all of you wrong
Fefonz Quan: and within that exloration, doubts should be brought up
Riddle Sideways: understanding is coming tooo slowly
Riddle Sideways: we come to guardian meeting and bring up our doubts
Fefonz Quan tries to figure who is the phsychic here )
Fefonz Quan: :)
Riddle Sideways: in a shared loving spot we can voice those
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Riddle Sideways: and we all raise our hands
Riddle Sideways: or as in my case, stand and need to leave
Fefonz Quan: i should go, thanks Wol, Tarmel, Riddle and Steve
Wol Euler: mmhmm, it is time
Wol Euler: so to speak
Riddle Sideways: 2 hours
Tarmel Udimo: yes I'll be heading back to RL soon too
Wol Euler: it was a great session, thank you all
Riddle Sideways: thank you all for the koans
Wol Euler: bye riddle, bye fefonz, and bye tarmel
Fefonz Quan: have a great week and see you soon
Tarmel Udimo: bye all
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
Wol Euler: I shall go too, I htink. Goodnight Steve, take care
stevenaia Michinaga: see you at 7...wink