2009.03.29 07:00 - Unconscious

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

    I arrived just in time to find Storm and Corvi in conversation.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Storm.
    Storm Nordwind: Hi! Just dropping by for a moment ...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: good to see you always.
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you! You too :)
    Storm Nordwind: I'd forgotten I left a test mode on the fountain and needed to disable it in case it confused by people using the autologger
    Storm Nordwind: So that's disabled now
    Storm Nordwind: And the new 90sec effect should work OK
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was great yesterday
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i was at the 7pm session..and found it useful.
    Storm Nordwind: Pleased to hear it. :)
    Storm Nordwind: Please excuse me for now!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Adams!!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Storm, enjoy your afternoon/evening.
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Namaste.
    Adams Rubble: Hi Storm. bye
    Adams Rubble: Hello Corvi :)
    Corvi and I chatted as Pemma arrived
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Lovely dress!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what a rich color.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the red with the purple is elegent.
    Adams Rubble: Thanks. I looked at it and hated it right before I came :)
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ohhhh!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hola, Pema.
    Pema Pera: Hi Corvi, Adams!
    Pema Pera: Have you seen our new 90-sec silence system yet, Adams?
    Pema Pera: (about to begin)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Good to see you again, Pema.
    Pema Pera: good morning!
    Pema Pera: I like the mist that Storm implemented for the 90-seconds
    Pema Pera: nice to watch, a bit dream like
    and then Sophia joined us. Sophia was to have some trouble starying and dissappeared, reappeared and then disappeared again later
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
    Pema Pera: hi Sophia!
    sophia Placebo: hi corvuscorva
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Sophia..nice to meet you after reading your words!
    Adams Rubble: Very nice dress Sophia :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Please call me Corvi.
    sophia Placebo: ty adams
    sophia Placebo: nice to meet you too adams
    Adams Rubble: Yes, you too Sophia :)
    Pema Pera: and welcome here as Play as Being guardian :-)
    Adams Rubble: Yes welcome to the gorup :)
    Maxine made her appearance next and briefly sat on Pema and Pema and Maxine remember last April
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Maxine!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Maxine :)
    Pema Pera: good morning, Maxine -- must be early for you, 7 am?
    Maxine Walden: hi, all, yes a bit early here, but wanting to join in...
    Pema Pera: you're joining in all right :-)
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Pema Pera: seeing you here early in the morning reminds me of the many conversations we had in April last year
    Maxine Walden: yes, I was thinking of that as well, Pema, we did have many then, early and memorable
    Pema Pera: often we were the only two present during the morning sessions
    Adams Rubble enjoyed reading those conversations
    Pema Pera: :)
    Maxine Walden: right! often in the teahouse which I called the teachouse, because I learned so much
    Maxine Walden: ah, adams, yes we had good discussions
    Pema Pera: yes, we started our culture of educational typos there
    Adams Rubble: wb Sophia :)
    Pema Pera: welcome back, Sophia!
    Maxine Walden: indeed, I think I was one of the first, could not help but calling it the teachouse, my fingers just did it
    sophia Placebo: ty
    sophia Placebo: hi all
    Maxine Walden: you know, time is funny: seems like longer than a year sometimes, and then also shorter than a year as well
    Pema Pera: yes, both
    Adams Rubble nods about the funny time
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
    Pema asks Maxine about her view of the unconscious
    Pema Pera: Maxine, in the spirit of continuing last spring's conversations, may I ask about your view of the unconscious?
    Maxine Walden: ah....(early in the morning, let's see what thoughts I have)...any specific questions about the unconscious, Pema?
    Pema Pera: oh, and before I forget, just to make sure of the terms, and starting at square one, what is the difference between subconscious and unconscious -- or are you only refering to the subconscious?
    Maxine Walden: in my view the subconscious is the more popular term for the unconscious, that many people refer to the unconscious as the subconconsious because it seems so, well, under the conscious
    Pema Pera: yes, in Dutch too
    Pema Pera: nice to see our fountain going "sub" too :-)
    Maxine Walden: that's really a lovely feature....Storm did a lovely thing here....
    Korii and Steve rezz in next
    Adams Rubble: Hello Steve :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Korii :)
    Maxine Walden: hi Steve
    Pema Pera: and hi Korii!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Korii, Steve.
    stevenaia Michinaga: Morning
    Korii Tiger: hi
    sophia Placebo: hi stev and kori
    Pema Pera: Maxine is just about to give us an early Sunday mini-talk about the unconscious, for those of us who are just waking up :-)
    Pema Pera: on my special request
    stevenaia Michinaga: goodie...listens
    Maxine continues...
    Maxine Walden: well, we will see about that...but I have been impressed with the unconscious regions of the mind for a long time
    Maxine Walden: and it seems to me that they comprise an inner cosmos as vast and complex and barely scratched, understood, as the outer cosmos
    Maxine Walden: just in terms of the depth of the recesses of the mind, how every event that has happened in our lives, and
    Maxine Walden: perhaps the experience of mankind seems to be registered in the unconscious
    Maxine Walden: and in certain circumstances can be recalled to consciousness, or be triggered and felt in the NOW of the moment
    Maxine Walden: often quite intensely...as if 'out of the blue'.
    Maxine Walden: But there is also a deep wisdom in the unconscious
    Maxine Walden: which for me is seen in the dream and the dreaming process
    Maxine Walden: as if the 'dreamer' is trying to organize our experiences, and convey the lessons of the past
    Maxine Walden: into the present, or to lend meaning from past experiences of the species if not the individual
    Maxine Walden: to the present...it is quite awesome and humbling for me to consider...especially that inner wisdom
    Pema Pera is curious about the difference between this notion of the unconscious, and that what Stim calls "using a(n altogether) different mind" -- but perhaps that's a detour here?
    Maxine Walden: that is of interest to me as well, Pema, could you give us a reminder of what Stim means?
    Pema Pera: Stim does not speak of the unconscious, since that comes from a different set of definitions than the sets that he uses
    Pema Pera: but at least some of what you ascribe to the unconscious, especially the wisdom, the vastness, and the otherness seems to correspond at least in some way to what Stim calls using a different mind
    Pema Pera: as opposed to using the ordinary mind
    Eliza slips in
    Adams Rubble: Hello Eliza :)
    Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza,
    Pema Pera: a mind, or a way of functioning of the mind, that is non conceptual
    sophia Placebo: hi eliza
    Maxine Walden: yes, Pema, yes, I think these aspects of the mind may be similar, the non-conceptual, almost pre-thinking aspect
    Maxine Walden: it is rather clear that this aspect of mind precedes, evolutionarily, the advent of thought which may be interesting in that it 'feels' more advanced than thought, at least for me
    Pema Pera: and Stim would probably call it non-evolutionary
    Pema Pera: pointing to a more radical difference
    Maxine Walden: ah...
    Pema Pera: but the phenomenology, if you can call it that, may be similar, or at least have overlap
    Maxine Walden: (I do think my attempts to give some timeline as to development may not seem helpful here; just my own interest perhaps)
    Pema Pera: perhaps projecting Stim's "other mind" into the world of concepts can let us talk about the other mind as the unconsious?
    Maxine Walden: that is an interesting consideration
    Pema Pera: so as a way to make sense of it, we can try to embed it in an evolutionary story
    Pema Pera: but as you sometimes indicates, there is a clear component of it coming "from elsewhere"
    Maxine Walden: again lovely interlude...
    Pema Pera: yes, a shift to a different mind . . . :-)
    Maxine Walden: yes indeed...to that wider mind...
    Maxine Walden: where the sun comes out
    Maxine Walden: so interesting, it is so peaceful right now...and makes me feel that my previous comments were more chatter...important at times, but a bit of chatter from this more peaceful place
    Pema Pera nods in agreement
    Pema Pera: (about my own comments :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) This place is satisfying, but the conversation I arrived to enjoyable also :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire is all for chatter, to be honest.
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: as well as the rest.
    Pema Pera: the best of both, hey? (^_^)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm
    Pema Pera: I am especially intrigued, Maxine, about the unconscious not being our own, not personal -- can you say a bit more about that aspect?
    Maxine Walden: yes, that is one of the most intriguing for me as well: that the unconscious seems to be the repository of what Jung would call the collective unconscious, the collective memory of humankind (or perhaps even further back)
    Maxine Walden: so that there may be universal experiences as it were that we all have shared, our ancestors, but in some sense
    Maxine Walden: us currently ...our own 'dreaming' processes might access those unconsconsciously registered experiences uniquely...but that they are there for us all
    stevenaia Michinaga: a psychic link to past memories?
    Maxine Walden: yes, steve, something like that. How does that seem?
    stevenaia Michinaga: like an un-measurable truth
    Adams Rubble: "You can be in my dream if I can be in yours". Dylan said that
    stevenaia Michinaga: there, but we don't know how
    Maxine Walden: some say that the more deeply we delve beyond differentiated thought the more unity we glean in the unconscious...the more the same...
    Maxine Walden: yes, and yet we seem consciously to try to avoid these awarenesses...even hate the awareness of our unity...I think because we hold our differences to be so 'precious'
    Pema Pera: when scientific types ask you "how can that possibly be, by what mechanism" what do you answer them, Maxine?
    Maxine Walden: our differences as possessions
    Maxine Walden: Pema, mechanism? just elab the question a bit more please?
    Pema Pera: for a scientist the notion of a collective unconscious may seem quite strange
    Pema Pera: is it molecular, electromagnetic, . . . ?
    Pema Pera: how do we contact this mysterious source of human collective wisdom?
    stevenaia Michinaga: genetic
    Reverielarke joins us
    Pema Pera: Hi Reverie!
    Pema Pera: welcome back to Play as Being!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Reverie
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Hello, Pema, and everyone. :)
    Pema Pera: (Reverie is an old friend of mine in RL, visited us here once before)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Reverie
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Hi- please call me Rev; it's simpler. :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there are lots of ways we share ideas, concepts and symbols...
    Adams Rubble: welcome
    Pema Pera: oh, I like Reverie . . . .
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: AH, ok.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but the shar-edness...is also in how we interact.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: as though we were one huge mind...
    Maxine Walden: yes, the scientist, used to differentiated thought, even treasuring it, may have difficulty with this notion.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not just in the thoughts we have but in our doing thoughts together.
    Pema Pera: yes, I agree Corvi, but most of my colleagues would consider that a meaningless metaphor, and I'm curious how Maxine and other psychologists like her respond to my colleagues
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i am talking in a strictly material idea 1) (from last night, sense)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: a collective unconscious may be just traded info?
    Pema Pera: and I guess Stim's way of talking about a "different mind" circumvents that problem by positing that mind as outside our normal realm of concepts, including concepts about the physical world as a whole
    Pema Pera smiles at Corvi
    Pema Pera: ah, interesting Corvi!
    Pema Pera: but how does the trading work then?
    Pema Pera: if you suddenly get a flash of insight from a distant past?
    Maxine Walden: I would probably speak to the scientist about the part of the mind that functions beyond thought, even pre-thought...such as the communication between animals..but that we do as well. Want an example?
    Pema Pera: any time, Max!
    Maxine Walden: Well, when I come to the group feeling something intensely, fiercely, even, without saying a word, or even having much body movement others will pick up the quality of the fierceness and register it, get agitated or something...it is a kind of emotional communication just be being present
    Maxine Walden: or if I come to the group having had a very significant, intense dream...if we watch the group interaction, comments, it is likely that some sense of that dream will register with the group...our inner selves communicate in pre-lingual ways...if we know how to listen
    Maxine Walden: being open to the unconscious communication of such affect or experience may not please the scientist but it can be compelling
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: So, are we talking about non-verbal communication, then? Nuances beyond that which we consciously perceive but nonetheless understand?
    Maxine Walden: yes, in a manner of speaking...and the experience of receiving those communications can feel like something out of the blue...
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Right, I see.
    Maxine Walden: not sure where they came from
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Language has come to eclipse much of that.
    Eliza Madrigal: Merely sitting in presence adds space to a conversation also...why contemplative people can say much in a ":)"
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Agreed.
    Maxine Walden: perhaps one more thought here re the unconscious as we have been talking about it: what I have been saying is re a mind which has evolved from the past, non-verbal communication, unity etc...what Stim and Pema and we are trying to do is to reach beyond the past, maybe into the future...does that make sense?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Maxine Walden: the contemplative mind, presences...freeing us from the chatter/encumbrances/doubts, etc...into the spacious future
    Pema Pera: this is a very big topic, Maxine . . . if I can go back one step: but if I may play the devil's advocate here, for clarification, how can we receive nonverbal communication in the form of wisdom from the distant past -- or is that not a concern for you, Maxine?
    Pema Pera: pesonally, I agree with the phenomena you describe, and I recognize and respect them -- the question is whether and if so how we can reconcile them with our current scientific knowledge
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Oooh, might I interrupt? Sorry, but suddenly I am thinking of Noh theater...
    Pema Pera: please do, Reverie!
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: I've not seen it myself, but from my readings... it seems to carry something with it
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: from hundreds of years ago
    Wol pops in next
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, Wol.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
    Pema Pera have watched Noh several times, was especially impressed by outdoors Noh, with firer burning around the circumference on a full moon night in Kyoto . . . .
    Adams Rubble: Hello Wol :)
    Pema Pera: *has
    Pema Pera: Hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello eliza, corvi, pema, adams, maxine, steve
    Maxine Walden: my understanding here, Pema, is that such ancestral lessons are registered in our unconscious and can be triggered by many things, dreams, external triggers, mythology...ah maybe such as Noh
    Pema Pera: and yes, the sounds especially are erie and deep-woods-animal-like
    Wol Euler: sorry I'm late, time change this morning
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: may/may not be relevant to this idea of the past- the nonverbal conveying of information
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Hello, Wol
    Pema Pera: but the question is then, is there a material basis for this "unconscious"
    Wol Euler: hello reverie, sorry, didn't mean to leave you out :)
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: no worries :)
    Pema Pera: or is it a metaphor, or something non-material, or something totally outside our realm?
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: I see what you're getting at, Pema- what is the mechanism, as it were
    Pema Pera: yes
    Maxine Walden: but if there is a questing wisdom, as from the dreaming process it might link the registration from the past into a 'dream' toward conscious recognition
    Pema Pera: just so I understand, Maxine, do you prefer to avoid the question as irrelevant, or do you think it is interesting to address it?
    Pema Pera: about the mechanism?
    Maxine Walden: not sure if this answers your question re mechanism, Pema, but there is a useful metaphor for a mechanism
    Adams Rubble: Is it connecting with the past so much as connecting with the eternal which also was available to the ancients
    Pema Pera: to be specific let me put on my scientist's hat, if that's okay, and I can ask you then whether there is anything more than poetry here?
    Pema Pera: nice sounding word but no real mechanism?
    Pema Pera: and if so how and where?
    Pema Pera hoping that he is not mistaken for the real Pema in talking this way :-)
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
    Maxine Walden: but I find useful to consider that we each have had our unknowable distress (as infants) 'known' about via the mind of a compassionate mothering person who by tending to our unknownable distress makes it knowable and thus thinkable. Does this do anything re the mechanism you are asking about, Pema?
    stevenaia Michinaga: if we don;t know the mechanisim of conciousness, how can we know the mechanism of sub-conciousness
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: I am curious about this too... whenever I would read about Jung's collective unconscious idea, I would silently wonder, how does this work? What is actually happening here? Subatomic particles, what? ;)
    I have to leave then and the rest of the log is curtesy of the autologger
    Adams Rubble: I need to go folks. Have a good day :)
    Adams Rubble: bye :)
    Wol Euler: bye adams, I'm sorry to miss you
    Pema Pera: yes, me too, and I see three quite different possibilities. Each of the three are interesting, and plausible in some way.
    Pema Pera: bye Adams!
    Maxine Walden: Eric Kandel, neural scientist, got a Nobel Prize for his work on memory, and showed that learning is registered neurally and passed on genetically
    Wol Euler: and bye pema, takecare
    Pema Pera: yes, that would be one of the three
    Pema Pera: Let me name them:
    Maxine Walden: other two?
    Pema Pera: 1) we will find ways to explain everything within the context of current science; as Reverie hinted at, through subtle non-verbal clues, but non-mysterious in the end, perhaps layered on touch, smell, subtle visual communication, etc.
    Pema Pera: 2) we will discover radically new extensions of current science, perhaps on the level of chi, etc, something beyond current insights, and which can then become an extension of science
    Pema Pera: 3) we may find that our whole realm of space and time and matter and all that we feel embedded in, the whole playground for science, in itself is just one realm among others, and the unconscious goes beyond our realm altogether in some sense
    Pema Pera: Which of the three would you bet on, Maxine?
    Maxine Walden: number 3 is my bet
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: yes, mine too
    Pema Pera: although I'd bet part of it on 2) and 1) as well, but not for everything
    Wol Euler: must it be either/or?
    Wol Euler: I find it extremely likely that 1 is also at work
    Pema Pera: I think it is all three, Wol, yes
    Pema Pera: but I also think that neither 1 nor 1 and 2 will be enough to explain everything that Maxine talked about
    Maxine Walden: most interesting to me is #3, but at other levels 1 an 2 likely also operating...many strands likely
    Pema Pera: and Stim talks about 3, when he talks about a "different mind" I bet :)
    Pema Pera: so 3 may be the place where Maxine's unconscious and Stim's different mind may overlap
    Wol Euler: I thought scientists considered themselves bound by Occam's razor? :)
    Pema Pera: sure, Corvi
    Pema Pera: as much as we can
    Pema Pera: but what can't be explained by a simple known mechanism requires an extension of known mechanisms
    Wol Euler: fair enough; but can it not?
    Pema Pera: that's the question
    Wol Euler: (I wan't here at the beginning, I am jumping in halfway and trying to guess the main course by teh crumbs on the table :)
    Pema Pera: and nobody knows what a future science may discover
    Steve departs
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, see you tonight
    Wol Euler: bye steve, take care
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: be well
    Pema Pera: no, you're dancing along just fine, Wol :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Steven
    Pema Pera: bye Steve!
    Pema Pera: in fact, I should be going soon too
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Stevie
    Pema Pera: and Max, we'll see each other in a few hours again -- and many of you, something tells me :-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Maxine goes too
    Maxine Walden: a very satisfying discussion. Have to go as well.
    Wol Euler: could we continiue another time? it sounds iteresting
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Thank you for letting me step into the middle of this river...
    Wol Euler: bye pema, bye maxine, enjoy your sundays
    Maxine Walden: yes, let's do
    Pema Pera: we seem to have a collective consciousness here, in addition to the collective unconscious :)
    Pema Pera: yw, Reverie, and we hope we can entice you to drink more often
    Pema Pera: or bath or swim, as you like :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: To further complicate things, some of what we're talking about persists even here- with so little to work with- merely avatars. ;)
    Pema Pera: Oh yes, very much so!
    Pema Pera: that was such an amazing discovery for me, at first
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Me too!
    Pema Pera: shockingly
    Wol Euler: well, I would debate the "merely"-ness of the avatars.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: I thought-- so few channels here.
    Pema Pera: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: but no :)
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: But yes, exactly.
    Wol Euler: this is a very real contact and communication
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: surprise, surprise.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: :)
    Pema Pera: it's like a distillation -- in some sense stronger almost
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: I find it almost eerie at times. A strange economy.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: There are more channels than most people think, though Reverie.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Yes
    Wol Euler: yep
    Pema Pera: yes
    Wol Euler: even silence communicates.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: once we get "into" sl...into the scarcity of channels we start looking for things.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: like silence..or speed of response..
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or length of sentences.
    Wol Euler: whether the number of typos increases or decreases
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or "standing up"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: And we learn it very quickly.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: We seem to be adaptive that way.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: we are hardwired to learnchannels
    Wol Euler: yep
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: even if the type of channels change.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: water nature
    Pema Pera: btw, I met Reverie way back when at a conference on the scientific study of consciousness, eleven years ago, in Tucson, in which Reverie spoke on her studies of lucid dreaming -- nice to come full circle again after all that time, Rev!
    Wol Euler smiles and nods
    Wol Euler: ah!
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Ah, eleven years... my goodness
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: And look; we've talked all night until dawn. ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: I find Lucid dreaming and extremely interesting topic (though it seems every topic overlaps).
    Wol Euler smiles
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: yes, Eliza
    Pema Pera: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: If I may throw something out there which was in my imagery during the conversation...but I didn't want to interrupt...?
    Eliza Madrigal: There is an idea (first heard in a show where Kandel was in attendance) of "mind as a sheet" which may be poetic but useful still..that the brain is shaped the way that it is, because it is a sheet crumpled up to fit into the skull...that mind is actually far more expansive...
    Eliza Madrigal: And I think it overlaps with so many things....membranes, etc...as far as a collective.
    Pema Pera: it's certainly a nice metaphor, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: It is.... one of those pictures that once you've got in mind you see many places
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Pema Pera: yes
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it works well..for lots of things actually.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: one of the materialistic ideas i have..one thing I like..is the idea of emergent properties.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the idea of that crumpled sheet...new surfaces contacting as it's crumpled...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's still 2 dimensional topographically.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but 3 dimensional too.
    Wol Euler thinks about chaos theory and folding graphs into 3d
    Eliza Madrigal: Mhm
    Wol Euler: catastrophe occurs where a change in the 2d graph crosses 3d space
    Pema Pera: yes, that would be in the 1) category, and certainly could be part or who knows all of the truth
    Pema Pera suddenly remembering that it was in 1996, the 2nd Tucson conference, that Rev and he met, thirteen years ago, even before Kira was started . . . -- sorry, just reminiscing
    Wol Euler smiles
    Pema Pera: Stephen LaBerge was there too
    Pema Pera: who wrote some interesting books on lucid dreaming
    Pema Pera: I remember some fun Mexican dinners outdoors
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Wonderful memories.
    Pema Pera: and, hahaha, the only time in my life I ever drove an open sports car, remember Rev, a few months later?
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Oh yes.
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: :) lol
    Wol Euler laughs
    Pema Pera: I had ordered a normal rental care
    Pema Pera: car
    Pema Pera: but they were out, and apologized to me that they could only provide me with a red sports car with no roof
    Pema Pera: I graciously accepted
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: He really seized the situation- bright red too
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: picked up Rev and we went off to Muir beach
    Pema Pera: north of San Francisco
    Pema Pera: (the car, not me)
    Pema Pera: (bright red)
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: That is a magical place-
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: lol-- right, the car was red; sorry!
    Pema Pera: we were both brightly shining though, with the landscape :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: a vivid adventure!
    Pema Pera: 't was
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Did it really happen? perhaps not!
    Wol Euler: :)
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: ;)
    Pema Pera: a collective unconscious lucid dream!
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: hehe
    Wol Euler: works for me.
    Pema Pera: where you there too perhaps, Wol, Corvi, Eliza?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: just now I was.
    Pema Pera: in the Pelican Inn near Muir's beach?
    Wol Euler: I can imagine the scene quite vividly, so perhaps yes
    Pema Pera: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I was in the car beside you, hair streaming, laughing.
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: :) You drove by me...had my thumb out but the car was too small..was picked up later by a guy on a motorcycle-hahah
    Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles at Eliza.
    Pema Pera: hahahahaha
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: of course, of course
    Pema Pera like a kid in a candy store then
    Pema Pera: choices choices . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler nods and smiles
    Pema Pera: ah, more and more is coming back now . . . . the laundry soap dream . . . .
    Pema Pera: was that what it was?
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: oh dear
    Pema Pera: we were talking about lucid dreams
    Pema Pera: well, no need to go into details :-)
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Pema has a good memory
    Wol Euler: and good memories
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for stories.
    Pema Pera: Reverie tells good stories and provides good adventures -- all memorable!
    Wol Euler: I wonder how much farther we might have got with Samuel, had we held these silences then?
    Pema Pera: very interesting question, Wol
    Wol Euler: might it have defused some of the aggression and tension?
    Pema Pera: could well be
    Pema Pera: with the diffuse mist of the fountain :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs
    Wol Euler: (I still think that was a missed opportunity on both sides. Neither got what might have been had from it)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Pema Pera: (Rev, Samuel was someone with rather strongly held views, and not very subtle in holding them up in your face so to speak)
    Wol Euler: I hope we moved him along the path a little ways
    Pema Pera: ((not Rev. Samuel, but "Reverie: Samuel))
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: I figured that's what you meant.
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: I think he also moved us along the path a little ways
    Pema Pera: mutually
    Pema Pera: we learned a lot
    Wol Euler nods
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: hmm- I see
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
    Eliza Madrigal: In what way? (I met him only once I think)
    Pema Pera: Wol? You met him more often than I
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Wol Euler: well, where to start? We talked a lot about him behind his back, in e-mail, discussing how to deal with his manner and his issues
    Wol Euler: and whether it was right to "deal with" him
    Wol Euler: that solidified teh group, in a way, gave us a bit more "us-ness"
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: interesting
    Wol Euler: but many of the arguments were also very invigorating and thought.provoking. He was quite doctrinaire and dogmatic, but not an idiot.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, so he gave an opportunity because you all made it into that
    Pema Pera: on the contrary
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: no..really smart.
    Pema Pera: in his own way he really took a large effort to try to communicate with us
    Wol Euler: I had the sense that he was struggling with the same issues he let out here, that it was his unease with Christianity and its doctrines taht he wanted to discuss, but he projected the anger and uncertainty onto us.
    Wol Euler: so we went around in circles much of the time
    Pema Pera: and we were not skillful enough to look beneath more closely, perhaps
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Pema Pera: though we got better at it, I think
    Pema Pera: over time
    Wol Euler: well, he didn't let us!
    Pema Pera: it's always mutual . . . .
    Pema Pera: perhaps he was better at defending than we were at opening up :-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: oh very defensive, yes.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah. It can be difficult to see out of a very "dfinite" minset
    Eliza Madrigal: (and in some circles you are taught *not* to question...to shut it down)
    Pema Pera: exactly, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: So the intellect and the heart can be set up for a kind of iwar
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: that can present some unique growth opportunities, but it can be frustrating too.
    Pema Pera: yes, both
    Pema Pera: but I can sort-of see his point of view
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: Everyone, I must excuse myself now...
    Wol Euler: bye reverie, nice meeting you.
    Pema Pera: in the sense that he was probably not aware of his (for us) aggressively defensive stand, so he perceived a kind of (counter-)aggression
    Eliza Madrigal: Pleasure to meet you Reverie
    Pema Pera: bye Revererie
    Reverielarke Wirtanen: So nice to see you all- please have a lovely rest of the day...
    Pema Pera: which he then attacked in turn and felt offended by
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Pema Pera: hope to see you soon again, Rev!
    Pema Pera: now that you know the way
    Wol Euler: take a landmark!
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah. Maybe he'll come back or read and realized that he is missed :)
    Pema Pera: I'm just trying to describe phenomenologically how Sam must have felt
    Eliza Madrigal: *realize
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: would be nice to see him again, sure
    Wol Euler: phone, brb
    Pema Pera: he has valid points, like we all have
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure I have points--hah
    Pema Pera: that's the best point, Eliza, an open mind!
    Eliza Madrigal: Love that little ding at the end now
    Wol Euler smiles
    Pema Pera: :)_
    Eliza Madrigal: If I want to come back later, must away :) Thank you everyone.
    Wol Euler: bye eliza, enjoy the day
    Pema Pera: bye Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: You too! Bye for now.
    Wol Euler: pema, what time is this for you?
    Pema Pera: oh, noon just about
    Wol Euler: and you last slept when? :)
    Pema Pera: let's see, two hours before the 1 am SLT session, then four hours between that one and this session :-)
    Wol Euler: eeep
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: g'night, Pema.
    Wol Euler: go. sleep,
    Pema Pera: and yes, I had interesting dreams
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Wol Euler: really
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm..
    Pema Pera: session with Maxine coming up in less than four hours . . .
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well..in that case...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Wol Euler: deffo, you need to be fresh for that.
    Pema Pera: I'll be okay, but thanks for your concern :)
    Wol Euler: )
    Pema Pera: see you soon again!
    Wol Euler: 'night pema, sweet dreams.
    Wol Euler: corvi, shall we close up and do some interview?
    Pema Pera: probably go for a walk in central park instead -- quite misty here!
    Pema Pera: dream like
    Pema Pera: bfn
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