2009.05.02 07:00 - "me" as appearance

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Vendy Walpole: hello
    Qt Core: hi Vendy
    Vendy Walpole: are you a guardian here?
    Qt Core: i'm one but i'm not the session one
    Vendy Walpole: I see.
    Vendy Walpole: each time is another?
    Qt Core: since a few days yes, before some had multiple slot to cover
    Vendy Walpole: k
    Qt Core: then there are the ones like me that son't feel ready yet to do it
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Qt Core: (even if some say the opposite)


    What do you like the most about PaB?

    Vendy Walpole: for how long have you been in play as being?

    Qt Core: a couple of month, not more maybe less
    Vendy Walpole: what is in it, that you like the most, if I may ask?
    Qt Core: hi lia
    Vendy Walpole: hi
    Lia Rikugun: hello everybody
    Qt Core: the silence, present even while we speak here
    Qt Core: and the idea of bringing some form of meditation in "real" daily life
    Vendy Walpole: yes, I like that ttoo, but I like the topics as well, they are like brain storming
    Qt Core: well, that is how to say, almost obvious those two feeling are on a deeper level
    Vendy Walpole: shall we have a topic for today?
    Lia Rikugun: you can choose :)
    Vendy Walpole looks at Qt
    Qt Core: who, me ?
    Vendy Walpole: do you have any idea?
    Vendy Walpole: any suggestions from you Lia?


    detach from the "me", seeing things as appearances

    Lia Rikugun: hm, this week i was trying to detach myself from the "me"

    Lia Rikugun: :D
    Lia Rikugun: and see myself as appearance
    Vendy Walpole: how do you mean as appearance?
    Lia Rikugun: pema is always talking about appearances
    Lia Rikugun: i am not sure if i can correctly summarize what he always says
    Lia Rikugun: i will try
    Vendy Walpole: yes, please
    Qt Core: (and making some heads spin) ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: hm
    Lia Rikugun: if you start to detach from the things araound you
    Lia Rikugun: hello scathach!
    Qt Core: hi scathach
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Lia, Vendy, QT
    Vendy Walpole: hi
    Lia Rikugun: you first just try to wear the clothes of "I am .. years old" "my profession is this and that"
    Lia Rikugun: a little looser
    Lia Rikugun: dont identify yourself too much with what you do
    Lia Rikugun: on one hand
    Lia Rikugun: and then start seeing everything as appearances
    Lia Rikugun: that tgings around you are true and not
    Lia Rikugun: i am not sure if i can explain
    Vendy Walpole: I believe I can get the point
    Lia Rikugun: scathach can you explain how to see everything as appearances?
    Scathach Rhiadra: You explained it good, Lia:)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
    Qt Core: hi adams
    Vendy Walpole: hello
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams
    Lia Rikugun: hello adams
    Vendy Walpole: can I say what i understand?
    Lia Rikugun: please
    Scathach Rhiadra: I suppose seeing all as they are right here, right now
    Vendy Walpole: if we deattach from ourselves, we shall see us as all other things and the world around us, equaly ?
    Vendy Walpole: then we become appearance?
    Lia Rikugun: i think it is somehow a personal thing
    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe stepping aside a little, not really detached?
    Lia Rikugun: and you decide how you want to do this ;)
    Vendy Walpole: can you explain this stepping aside Scatsh?
    Lia Rikugun: (yes mqaybe my words are not the correct ones)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Eliza :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams, Eliza
    Vendy Walpole: hi
    Qt Core: sometime i see this knowing/seeing the appearance as ... know your enemy
    Lia Rikugun: hello eliza
    Qt Core: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone :)
    Vendy Walpole: when you see it as enemy, can you give us an expample?


     what is real, what do we think is real?

    Adams Rubble: Seeing things as appearance reminds us that we are not necessarily seeing reality but what we think is reality

    Vendy Walpole: (sorry for typos)
    Scathach Rhiadra: shifting back into awareness rather than identifing with the self, maybe:)
    Qt Core: maybe it is just a result born from my ignorance, but it came from a clash from the idea that all is only appearance, a shadow and the idea of appreciating it
    Adams Rubble: becoming detached we can begin to comprehend the presence behind the appearance
    Vendy Walpole: yes, I see that too Adams
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, and appearances arise in our perceptions


    appearances and suffering, why is it so difficult to get detached from pain?

    Vendy Walpole: why is so hard to be dettached in real life when it causes pain so often?

    Vendy Walpole: almost always it leads to suffeing
    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe we cling to the appearances as though they were reality
    Lia Rikugun: it is real and not
    Vendy Walpole: yes, true
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Lia Rikugun: we are suffering
    Lia Rikugun: but we can see the suffering as appearance
    Lia Rikugun: as an observer
    Lia Rikugun: which makes it easier maybe
    Qt Core: maybe as before we do a deep analisys it does not seem an appearance but reality and you have to have energy and dedication to discover that (being told isn't enough)
    Lia Rikugun: and see clearly
    Scathach Rhiadra: or if we can be in touch with our true nature, we could see through the suffering
    Adams Rubble: When we are suffering it is the time when we most need to watch appearances closely to see what is really there


    How difficult is it to see yourself as appearance?

    Vendy Walpole: If you let me, I would like to know, how often, each of you, manage to do it, to see yourself as appearance and how easily it is for you, each?

    Adams Rubble: that includes watching out thoughts
    Lia Rikugun: too difficult :)
    Vendy Walpole: It would help me
    Lia Rikugun: i saw it clearly for 2 minutes maybe
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Vendy Walpole: each time you try?
    Adams Rubble: I don't know if I ever tried to see myself as appearance
    Vendy Walpole: or sometimes you are not able simply?
    Qt Core: brb
    Lia Rikugun: this was just an experiment
    Adams Rubble: interesting exercise :)
    Lia Rikugun: to loose the idea of me, dont know if its good or not
    Vendy Walpole: I feel a resistance sometimes when I try it, yet sometimes I am able to do it for a few mins
    Lia Rikugun: and what do you feel then vendy?
    Vendy Walpole: I feel light, and the space enlarge around me, no barriers
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Vendy Walpole: perceptions are better
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Vendy Walpole: feel detached from myself
    Lia Rikugun: what do you mean: perceptions are better?
    Adams Rubble: That's wonderful Vendy :)
    Eliza Madrigal: expansiveness, very nice
    Vendy Walpole: I hear all sounds clearly as instance
    Lia Rikugun: ahh
    Vendy Walpole: not only those close to me
    Lia Rikugun: :) ty
    Vendy Walpole: and feel the space better
    Lia Rikugun: and can you carry this feeling into your real life?
    Vendy Walpole: not only inside the room I am
    Eliza Madrigal: a hightened sense of sound...can relate to that
    Lia Rikugun: like 30% of it as an idea
    Qt Core: when that happen to me i don't think about seeing me as an appearance
    Vendy Walpole: I try it throug the day, to repeat it
    Vendy Walpole: not easy always
    Lia Rikugun: this is very difficult for me
    Qt Core: instead i feel my mind (myself ?) more real than ever
    Vendy Walpole: sometimes I can't do it
    Lia Rikugun: somehow it feels like seeing yourself as appearance means doing nothing
    Lia Rikugun: but you can continue
    Eliza Madrigal: For me the challenge has been to practice detachment without as much distance somehow...hard to describe....to be *more* engaged because I feel I can be...everything is transient/appearance so ultimately is *fine*.
    Scathach Rhiadra: like more present in the here and now ?
    Adams Rubble: QT, you have another route to expanding space?
    Qt Core: just breathing
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Qt Core: and calming my mind
    Vendy Walpole: somehow, the breathing ties me to my body
    Eliza Madrigal nods. I appreciate the emphasis on here and now, more real.
    Vendy Walpole: it is not the way that helps me
    Adams Rubble: that's great Qt
    Adams Rubble: I always use such complicated routes. hehe. Maybe some day I'll learn :)
    Lia Rikugun: what complicated routes?
    Adams Rubble: It gets complicated to try to describe Lia
    Adams Rubble: A little of thids and a little of that
    Adams Rubble: this


    SL as an example to see appearances more easy

    Vendy Walpole: I will use an expample from SL, I try to move my "camera" in rl to watch me as appearance and the space around wider and wider

    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Qt Core: but sometimes i wonder if it is only that being calm (and usualy with closed eyes) i just use hearing more
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: I have that sensation Qt
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah Vendy, yes I enjoy that also... taking different views which make one just one part of things
    Adams Rubble: the other senses come into play especially if I close my eyes
    Vendy Walpole: SL is a very good way to practice that, yes
    Qt Core: i started imagining moving my camera in rl too, nothing happens ;-)
    Vendy Walpole: and we are here just appearances in sl
    Vendy Walpole: distance it from yourslef Qt
    Vendy Walpole: and you will see you
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Vendy Walpole: :)
    Qt Core: not a very nice view ;-)
    Vendy Walpole: hahaha
    Scathach Rhiadra: is this the phenomenology exploration you are talking about?
    Lia Rikugun: (I dont know, have not been to the pheno workshop for long time :( )
    Vendy Walpole: I never been there
    Qt Core: (i've never been there)
    Lia Rikugun: hello genesis
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gen :)
    Qt Core: hi genesis
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gen
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gen :)
    Lia Rikugun: but seeing everything as appearances was an exploration i think for one pheno workshop
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
    Eliza Madrigal: Certainly this has been a topic in PaB, and also in many meditation/mindfulness practices but maybe with different terminology and emphasis.
    Vendy Walpole: yes, in buddhism classes too
    Vendy Walpole: it is the basic teaching
    Eliza Madrigal: That's one thing that has made it a little hard for me to translate into the pheno. workshop..lol
    Eliza Madrigal: I want to be specific and then I think "Am I doing what they are doing, or just ___." :)
    Lia Rikugun: :)


    real and not real at the same time...

    Vendy Walpole: another question, why this world/ rl is not real and it is real at the same time?

    Lia Rikugun: everything in itself makes sense
    Lia Rikugun: this is how i see it
    Lia Rikugun: and you cannot do just anything
    Lia Rikugun: so on some level it is real
    Lia Rikugun: on another level it is not
    Lia Rikugun: what do the thers think?
    Lia Rikugun: others
    Adams Rubble: I don;t worry too much about that anymore :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I like that Lia..that "everything in itself" idea... arising and dissolving in its moment/place.
    Lia Rikugun: ah you make it clearer for me eliza, thank you
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: i like pema metaphor
    Lia Rikugun: he is always saying it is you being an actor in a theater play
    Lia Rikugun: the story is real you are in it
    Lia Rikugun: and you are playing
    Lia Rikugun: but afterwards you have a different life
    Lia Rikugun: so you are 2 in one somehow
    Vendy Walpole: what would be different life in this case Lia?
    Lia Rikugun: i dont know i think of it as a "bigger me"
    Lia Rikugun: without any definition of that
    Lia Rikugun: not me me
    Vendy Walpole: that is another way of describing the appearnces
    Vendy Walpole: right?
    Lia Rikugun: i am not sure, now i am confused :)


    WHAT is it arising and dissolving out of?

    Eliza Madrigal: :) Hard sometimes not to be preoccupied with "WHAT is it arising and dissolving out of?" But that's what we can't see when we try to look at it? That's what we want to allow...Being/Illumination?

    Lia Rikugun: happens often with PaB :P
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (apologies for being so wordy)
    Vendy Walpole: you said it very nice Eliza
    Adams Rubble nods
    Adams Rubble: I agree with Vendy
    Eliza Madrigal: thank you. I know for myself that endless trying to trace things back gets exhausting. hah
    Adams Rubble: Much of what we think is real is not real, just appearances
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Adams Rubble: and that includes much of us
    Scathach Rhiadra: or it is relatively real, not ultimately real, maybe
    Adams Rubble: yes Scath :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Much of us... yes..not that it is all Unreal or without substance entirely. Hm



    Lia Rikugun: (sorry, I will have to go)

    Adams Rubble: bye Lia :)
    Lia Rikugun: take care you all and thank you for the nice discussion
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lia, Thanks.
    Vendy Walpole: you too, bye
    Scathach Rhiadra: Bye Lia, Namaste
    Vendy Walpole: hope see you soon all, have a nice weekend :)
    Qt Core: time to go for me to this rean/unreal rl is quite annoying sometimes ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Vendy, everyone :) Namaste
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe Qt
    Vendy Walpole: Bye
    Qt Core: bye all
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Vendy, you too!
    Vendy Walpole: thx
    Adams Rubble: bye all :)
    Vendy Walpole: waves
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye QT, have a nice weekend!
    Qt Core: you too, have fun
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, bye Eliza, Gen, Namasté
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